The hypocritical criticisms of Thailand...

[sundrenched]

Thailand is a land of extremes, more so than most other countries. Some of the good things are great. But when it's bad, it's awful to the point of being intolerable. When things get bad in Europe or the US, either the government or social norms will put it in check. In Thailand, there are fewer such brakes and the awful is allowed to stay or get worse -- be it pollution, corruption, scams, incompetence, lack of etiquette, and so on. As to service, it's good most of the time, but when it's bad, it's Fawlty Towers bad in a way you rarely get in the West. This mix of the great with the awful is why this place is at once alluring, but also disappointing. Oh, and if you don't like my post, leave the internet!

Edited April 3, 2014 by sundrenched

[Jingthing]

You have a good point! well seven actually, you really got to wonder why some people are here.

I would say each of us that stays has our own personal reasons.

It's not black and white.

Just because people have criticisms, even STRONG criticisms of life in Thailand, that does not necessarily mean they don't have good reasons to stay.

There are issues in living in any country, including of course our home countries.

I don't appreciate the anti-intellectual attitude that if you have criticism of here or anywhere, you should just leave. That's not real life. You should just leave if you decide you WANT to leave for your own individual reasons, have a better place to go, or of course, are deported, can't keep your extensions going, etc.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[sdanielmcev]

I am Thai. I have been following this forum for a while. All the negative thoughts against our country and our people especially Thai women, are the reflections of your own perceptions and personality. We actually do not need such negative people like you to pollute our air , our Buddhist Land ! Please leave Thai for good. The polluted air is gonna get better without all negative breathe.

Remember, where ever you go , you will never feel happy as you are not happy with yourself !,,,

Are you familiar with the word -- xenophobia?

Have you ever lived in a country outside Thailand?

Does it occur to you foreigners see things about Thailand that native Thais NEVER could?

Thailand is not an ISLAND.

It is part of the global world now.

Unless Thais want to be like North Korea, that is.

Just because you are Thai doesn't logically mean you have everything right, even about Thailand.

Yes, westerners have large cultural differences. Westerners can learn from Easterners, and VICE VERSA.

It is true most westerners can never see Thailand as a Thai, but the opposite is true too.

To the PEGOTs (Pan European Guests Of Thailand) that find Ms. Namy's comment admirable, I will say this -- a similarly toned -- go home foreigners and stop "polluting" our air and referring to the majority RELIGION from a native in a western land would properly be called BIGOTED. So if it's bigoted from westerners, and it is, how is it that it is not bigoted from Thais?

There is no bigotry when an insider tells an outsider to "fit in or leave." It's their house. You throw that word, bigotry, around too much when anyone disagrees with you.

I don't find Thais on the whole bigoted. Most I've met wonder why someone comes to their country and tries to complains about it. As I say. it's their house. Their rules.

Oh, xenophobia is the fear of outsiders. Thais, doubtfully, fear westerners.

The word is not only about fear. Many people make the same mistake you did, see the root XENO and thinking it is limited to fear.

I was speaking about the post, not all Thais.

Also the post wasn't fit in or leave, it was shut your trap and don't ever say anything critical about any of your experiences in Thailand on a bloody EXPAT FORUM, or leave. That's offensive. Why would that be defensible?

Is that the vision of a healthy expat forum -- endless pap about how everything is perfect? Again, see NORTH KOREA. No thank you.

Fit in or leave ... how about neither? I don't know about you but I'm not an IMMIGRANT here. Live here, yes, year by year, but will never be an immigrant, not even an option.

I'm sorry, checking the brain at BKK is not on the program.

Phobia means fear.

And once again, you are dissembling. Can not argue with a blithering idiot that can't even read what he himself wrote.

I don't see any reason why a forum needs to stoop to the least common denominator principle.

Nope, you don't get neither as an option.

[Jingthing]

It means hatred as well as fear. It can be used to only talk about fear, only about hatred, or BOTH. I was speaking of the PHOBIA root word before of course, not xeno. If you're just here to hurl insults, I'm very happy you think I am not worthy of your chats.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[Banzai99]

To the very few who actually live here.............

You must like it, otherwise you would not stay, right ?

[ggt]

_{OP...thank you for your comparison of Thailand and the West...it was amusing...if not accurate...}

_{I would say...if you are so offended...by folks who do not see Thailand as you do...do not read the forum responses to loaded questions...like...why all the negativity about Thailand?}

_{Then when someone is honest and critical about their assessment of Thai culture...Thai people...and the Thai environment...there is always someone like yourself...calling them stupid...misfits who would have trouble enjoying any country...and the list goes on and on...}

_{Why not tell the critical person...all the good things you have experienced in Thailand...maybe you will make a convert...}

[Jingthing]

To the very few who actually live here.............

You must like it, otherwise you would not stay, right ?

Not necessarily. It might be better than other options at least right now. Most people in the world are not happy anyway. Why expect expats in Thailand will all be happy and their solution is to leave as if living somewhere else will magically create happiness? Are expats in Thailand a different kind of human beings that people have these unrealistic fantasies? Where you live is just one factor with happiness. Do you think most Thais living in Bangkok are happy? Now, that's funny! So expats live in Bangkok, same place, and they're all expected to be happy, or leave? Doesn't make sense. Yes I know they CAN leave ... that's true.

Also you might feel happy today, but something really bad happens tomorrow, and then you feel miserable. Here or bloody anywhere!

It's a place to live. People do laundry here. Have plumbing problems. Crazy neighbors. It's not NirvanaLand, it's just Thailand. I think a lot of the crackpot fantasies about living here come from people who have never lived here.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[Banzai99]

Does it matter where you live if you never go out ?

[kimbathewhitelion]

I am Thai. I have been following this forum for a while. All the negative thoughts against our country and our people especially Thai women, are the reflections of your own perceptions and personality. We actually do not need such negative people like you to pollute our air , our Buddhist Land ! Please leave Thai for good. The polluted air is gonna get better without all negative breathe.

Remember, where ever you go , you will never feel happy as you are not happy with yourself !,,,

Are you familiar with the word -- xenophobia?

Have you ever lived in a country outside Thailand?

Does it occur to you foreigners see things about Thailand that native Thais NEVER could?

Thailand is not an ISLAND.

It is part of the global world now.

Unless Thais want to be like North Korea, that is.

Just because you are Thai doesn't logically mean you have everything right, even about Thailand.

Yes, westerners have large cultural differences. Westerners can learn from Easterners, and VICE VERSA.

It is true most westerners can never see Thailand as a Thai, but the opposite is true too.

To the PEGOTs (Pan European Guests Of Thailand) that find Ms. Namy's comment admirable, I will say this -- a similarly toned -- go home foreigners and stop "polluting" our air and referring to the majority RELIGION from a native in a western land would properly be called BIGOTED. So if it's bigoted from westerners, and it is, how is it that it is not bigoted from Thais?

There is no bigotry when an insider tells an outsider to "fit in or leave." It's their house. You throw that word, bigotry, around too much when anyone disagrees with you.

I don't find Thais on the whole bigoted. Most I've met wonder why someone comes to their country and tries to complains about it. As I say. it's their house. Their rules.

Oh, xenophobia is the fear of outsiders. Thais, doubtfully, fear westerners.

The word is not only about fear. Many people make the same mistake you did, see the root XENO and thinking it is limited to fear.

I was speaking about the post, not all Thais.

Also the post wasn't fit in or leave, it was shut your trap and don't ever say anything critical about any of your experiences in Thailand on a bloody EXPAT FORUM, or leave. That's offensive. Why would that be defensible?

Is that the vision of a healthy expat forum -- endless pap about how everything is perfect? Again, see NORTH KOREA. No thank you.

Fit in or leave ... how about neither? I don't know about you but I'm not an IMMIGRANT here. Live here, yes, year by year, but will never be an immigrant, not even an option.

I'm sorry, checking the brain at BKK is not on the program.

Phobia means fear.

And once again, you are dissembling. Can not argue with a blithering idiot that can't even read what he himself wrote.

I don't see any reason why a forum needs to stoop to the least common denominator principle.

Nope, you don't get neither as an option.

Reading other people's opinions is always enlightening or challenging or informational whether educating or acknowledging to a most simplest view, like "okay", but given the member is possibly not even Thai or possibly a mix (which in Thai standards is no longer Thai) but play acting as most members do...given of which this is just another question outside every other & treated as the same, aren't all replied views, answers the same?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Noi657]

PS: I spent two months in LA about 10 years ago, and the pollution was NOTHING like Bangkok. lived in London and New York for many years, and again nothing like Bangkok. Of course there's occasional peaks, but they're very little to the constant pollution here. Comparing measles to the plague.

Pollution

Litter and builders dumping rubble everywhere. Nothing like it in the UK.

CM smog. Nothing like it in the UK.

They don't have Pikeys in your area then?

[Jimmu]

To the very few who actually live here.............

You must like it, otherwise you would not stay, right ?

Wrong!

[Scottythai]

A lot of your examples are very weak. Pollution, corruption, service,... Well hell yeah, they ARE worse here than in the West. A problem I see here more often is Thai apologists /reflexive West-bashing who have have no sense of magnitude. Just because there is pollution in the US and Europe doesn't mean it's as bad as in Thailand. It's not a binary thing, either on or off.

2 minutes on google and you can see Thailand / Bangkok is no where near as bad as NY city and slightly better than LA. People are just going to take your word at face value? Look at the little map and see the color code for bad pollution areas. Congrats and enjoy your Thai bashing cause your frum Murica,,,,,,,,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution#Cities

[MrWorldwide]

Here we go again

21 days from today, I get on a plane bound for a city that some here claim is:

- 20-30% more expensive than Bangkok,

- more corrupt than Thailand, esp among the local Police

- is a major target for thieves and rogues, local and imported, courtesy of the above corruption, a huge tourist population and a very liberal visa exemption system.

Break-ins, street assault, ATM scams - its all potentially waiting for me. Guess what ? I cant change any of that - I can only learn to live with it or find somewhere else to base myself. If I believed everything I read on TV, I would never get on another plane - regardless of destination. The Shrodinger's cat paradox neatly sums up my feelings : the only way to know is to open the box, but many here don't want anyone to open a box for fear of being confronted by the dead cat that was in their box. Fortunately, I'm more of a dog man myself

[Keesters]

So your saying we shouldn't complain about things in Thailand just because they are the same or worse in our home countries. I don't see how that is hypocritical. Thailand is my home and has been for 30 years. If I see or hear something that I don't like, pollution, unhealthy food, corruption, whatever, I feel I have the right to complain here just as I would if I was back in my country of birth. If the UK, USA etc are also suffering from problems like pollution, corruption etc then let the residents (naturalized or not) of those countries complain there if they wish too.

It seems to me that your complaining about people complaining. Isn't that hypocritical? And are we all supposed to shut up and make Thailand look as if it doesn't have what you are saying are global problems anyway? Wouldn't that be living a lie?

[iamariva1957]

Nautilus05.... you are right in the money. Thank you so much for the GREAT morning laugh! I applaud your take on things!

[tiffanystoyz]

Ok the real deal I came here two reasons weather and women, When I got here culture shock rents were cheap food is cheap. The women were up front about there needs and mine. Yes some lie but goes any place you go. But with Obama care crap which thank god I don't have to get.My money goes further here I got a maid to clean my place and if I need extra can get easy. Back home you will be lucky to even get a younger woman to talk to you muchless give you what you want. Can't walk down the streets at night back home but can here. If your respectful here you get same back back home your lucky you don't get shot. Yes drivers not so good here but hell who drives when cabs are so cheap? Took a cab in Vegas for mile and and half ride cost more than Bangkok to Pattaya ride here. So if you can't find the good here then go home cause there are those of us who do enjoy life here.

[iamariva1957]

So your saying we shouldn't complain about things in Thailand just because they are the same or worse in our home countries. I don't see how that is hypocritical. Thailand is my home and has been for 30 years. If I see or hear something that I don't like, pollution, unhealthy food, corruption, whatever, I feel I have the right to complain here just as I would if I was back in my country of birth. If the UK, USA etc are also suffering from problems like pollution, corruption etc then let the residents (naturalized or not) of those countries complain there if they wish too.

It seems to me that your complaining about people complaining. Isn't that hypocritical? And are we all supposed to shut up and make Thailand look as if it doesn't have what you are saying are global problems anyway? Wouldn't that be living a lie?

You have failed to see the humor in what Nautilus05 wrote. It was not a piece on dealing with things here verses back in our home countries, but rather a humorous look at the issue. What he said was right. The inferences were right on the money. For the hypocrisy is there.

I have been here for 4 years and have heard it all from my fellow travelers and residents who are always saying, "This would not happen at home". So see the humor in what was written and have a laugh. For between having to keep that Tea Money on hand, doing stupid Visa Runs, dealing with the lack of logical thinking, keeping huge funds in a Thai bank just to be able to show that you can live here (and gaining no interest on those funds or being able to move them around as you wish without jumping through a myriad of hoops), dealing with the 2-price system, or being seen simply as a very deep pocket when you walk into any store or bar, and all the other elements that are loaded onto us Farangs ... and then complaining about it... the hypocrisy is there.

[LaraC]

As far as the charge of gold digging women is concerned ... exactly who is it that flew thousand of miles in the hopes of being able to exploit whom? If your appearance and personality make it a certainty that no sane woman in your own country would have anything to do with you unless some major cash changed hands and you thought you'd find some attractive, sexy women in Thailand thrilled to see you, you really are delusional. The only thing you may have going for you is money if you are that much of a turn off. Once again, the majority of farang who have Thai partners probably are quite content and have no complaints, but the small number who manage to get separated from their money with nothing to show for it have no one to blame but themselves.

+1

You wont earn many allies on here with that statement.

The truth is a stinger!

[wym]

As far as the charge of gold digging women is concerned ... exactly who is it that flew thousand of miles in the hopes of being able to exploit whom? If your appearance and personality make it a certainty that no sane woman in your own country would have anything to do with you unless some major cash changed hands and you thought you'd find some attractive, sexy women in Thailand thrilled to see you, you really are delusional. The only thing you may have going for you is money if you are that much of a turn off. Once again, the majority of farang who have Thai partners probably are quite content and have no complaints, but the small number who manage to get separated from their money with nothing to show for it have no one to blame but themselves.

+1

You wont earn many allies on here with that statement.

The truth is a stinger!

I see nothing objectionable nor hurtful about anything S69 wrote, pretty much self-evident if you ask me. . .

[ABCer]

Bravo, Nautilus.

I posted something similar about 'Thai women' taking money for sex.

I call it Thai bashing for Non Thai Specific Faults.

[thailiketoo]

I am Thai. I have been following this forum for a while. All the negative thoughts against our country and our people especially Thai women, are the reflections of your own perceptions and personality. We actually do not need such negative people like you to pollute our air , our Buddhist Land ! Please leave Thai for good. The polluted air is gonna get better without all negative breathe.

Remember, where ever you go , you will never feel happy as you are not happy with yourself !,,,

Are you familiar with the word -- xenophobia?

Have you ever lived in a country outside Thailand?

Does it occur to you foreigners see things about Thailand that native Thais NEVER could?

Thailand is not an ISLAND.

It is part of the global world now.

Unless Thais want to be like North Korea, that is.

Just because you are Thai doesn't logically mean you have everything right, even about Thailand.

Yes, westerners have large cultural differences. Westerners can learn from Easterners, and VICE VERSA.

It is true most westerners can never see Thailand as a Thai, but the opposite is true too.

To the PEGOTs (Pan European Guests Of Thailand) that find Ms. Namy's comment admirable, I will say this -- a similarly toned -- go home foreigners and stop "polluting" our air and referring to the majority RELIGION from a native in a western land would properly be called BIGOTED. So if it's bigoted from westerners, and it is, how is it that it is not bigoted from Thais?

There is no bigotry when an insider tells an outsider to "fit in or leave." It's their house. You throw that word, bigotry, around too much when anyone disagrees with you.

I don't find Thais on the whole bigoted. Most I've met wonder why someone comes to their country and tries to complains about it. As I say. it's their house. Their rules.

Oh, xenophobia is the fear of outsiders. Thais, doubtfully, fear westerners.

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust or hatred on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, evaluative orientation, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

I looked for PEGOT and the coining of new words. All I could find was tinny and woody. I really don't know if PEGOT is a tinny word or a woody word.

Edited April 4, 2014 by thailiketoo

[Berkshire]

_{Then when someone is honest and critical about their assessment of Thai culture...Thai people...and the Thai environment...there is always someone like yourself...calling them stupid...misfits who would have trouble enjoying any country...and the list goes on and on...}

"Honest and critical??" Are you serious? You can't be talking about the daily whingings/whinings and rants on TV. There is nothing honest about that. Mostly racist and bigoted views being perpetuated day after day. And some of the ridiculous complaints are usually exaggerated and sometimes plain untruths. Like listening to petulant children not getting their way. We all recognize that respect for farangs in Thailand has fallen off over the years. People with your attitude explains partially.

[Munger]

Back home you will be lucky to even get a younger woman to talk to you muchless give you what you want. Took a cab in Vegas for mile and and half ride cost more than Bangkok to Pattaya ride here.

NONSENSE, You say younger woman want to talk to you and give you what you want, and you also talk about Pattaya. So these woman are prostitutes. Why wont prostitutes talk to you, and give you what you want back home in Las Vegas ? Do you call these woman here your girlfriends, and then pay them every morning ?

[HooHaa]

Mostly I put it down to when you move countries you aren't settled yet. You are exposed to everything and starting from scratch.

But yes. There are plenty of idiots about. People who shouldn't be given passports, and unfortunately they like to end up in Thailand.

Others who don't realise that as white people, for the most part they are actually getting treated better than the average Thai and definitely better than the Burmese migrant worker.

The complaints I read on Thai Visa astound me. Makes me think I live in the same country but parallel universe.

And don't get me started about the anti foreigner foreigners who move to Thailand.

i live a life of privilege and ease in thailand, one of my own design.

think thailand is bad? im in manila for a month for work. compared to manila bangkok is heaven.

[Keesters]

So your saying we shouldn't complain about things in Thailand just because they are the same or worse in our home countries. I don't see how that is hypocritical. Thailand is my home and has been for 30 years. If I see or hear something that I don't like, pollution, unhealthy food, corruption, whatever, I feel I have the right to complain here just as I would if I was back in my country of birth. If the UK, USA etc are also suffering from problems like pollution, corruption etc then let the residents (naturalized or not) of those countries complain there if they wish too.

It seems to me that your complaining about people complaining. Isn't that hypocritical? And are we all supposed to shut up and make Thailand look as if it doesn't have what you are saying are global problems anyway? Wouldn't that be living a lie?

You have failed to see the humor in what Nautilus05 wrote. It was not a piece on dealing with things here verses back in our home countries, but rather a humorous look at the issue. What he said was right. The inferences were right on the money. For the hypocrisy is there.

I have been here for 4 years and have heard it all from my fellow travelers and residents who are always saying, "This would not happen at home". So see the humor in what was written and have a laugh. For between having to keep that Tea Money on hand, doing stupid Visa Runs, dealing with the lack of logical thinking, keeping huge funds in a Thai bank just to be able to show that you can live here (and gaining no interest on those funds or being able to move them around as you wish without jumping through a myriad of hoops), dealing with the 2-price system, or being seen simply as a very deep pocket when you walk into any store or bar, and all the other elements that are loaded onto us Farangs ... and then complaining about it... the hypocrisy is there.

You may see some humor in it but most don't. The hypocrisy exists where he complains about people complaining. Nowhere do I see in his or my post "This would not happen at home" and that is not the issue. If you see something that you feel incorrect then you should be able to say so. END OF STORY. My post stands his is rubbish.

[samran]

Mostly I put it down to when you move countries you aren't settled yet. You are exposed to everything and starting from scratch.

But yes. There are plenty of idiots about. People who shouldn't be given passports, and unfortunately they like to end up in Thailand.

Others who don't realise that as white people, for the most part they are actually getting treated better than the average Thai and definitely better than the Burmese migrant worker.

The complaints I read on Thai Visa astound me. Makes me think I live in the same country but parallel universe.

And don't get me started about the anti foreigner foreigners who move to Thailand.

i live a life of privilege and ease in thailand, one of my own design.

think thailand is bad? im in manila for a month for work. compared to manila bangkok is heaven.

I think Thailand is great. I think you've missed my points though.

- moving countries is always a pain. Setting up your own ecosystem is always going mean you are dealing with a lot more bureacracy and you'll be trying out new service providers in short order. Meaning, that compressed interaction, inevitable dissapointments etc can mean that someone turns around and says the whole place is a mess. A bit like when I moved to the UK and tried to get an NI number, a bank account, credit card and registered at the GP. I thought the whole system was dysfunctional as a result. But then the feeling fades and you adjust to the new rythm. I can forgive those complaints - I've been there too.

- Idiots are idiots. They are the ones who just simply have an inability to adjust and think about an issue in another way. They are the complaints here that I don't understand.

- Being a foreigner in Thailand affords you all sorts of levels of locals turning the other cheek for your cultural faux-pas.

Edited April 4, 2014 by samran

[sundrenched]

Just because people have criticisms, even STRONG criticisms of life in Thailand, that does not necessarily mean they don't have good reasons to stay.

That such an obvious point even needs to be pointed out every day on this forum makes me feel the entire forum is a waste of time. There's not enough time in the world to fight the sea of stupidity, and there are definitely better things to do with one's time than arguing with people intent on infantilizing everything. Edited April 4, 2014 by sundrenched

[sundrenched]

Congrats and enjoy your Thai bashing cause your frum Murica,,,,,,,,

I'm Belgian. You confirm the point in my previous post. Waste of time to argue with trolls like you who assume things about the poster they don't know. As to your statistics, I'll trust my nose anytime over government statistics that are easily manipulated.

[sundrenched]

Congrats and enjoy your Thai bashing cause your frum Murica,,,,,,,,

I'm Belgian. You confirm the point in my previous post. Waste of time to argue with trolls like you who assume things about the poster they don't know. As to your statistics, I'll trust my nose anytime over government statistics that are easily manipulated.

Edit: against my own advice, his own link doesn't even bear out his rebuttal.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/table3_13.pdf

Average PM10 for 2004 for Bangkok 79, LA 34, NY 21, London 21. The reality would be much worse probably because of temporary peaks. To get an average of 79 you must certainly get some awful air at times. It is also well accepted that PM2.5 is a better metric than PM10, but many governments that have something to hide prefer sticking with PM10 (a point that led to a row between the Chinese government and the American embassy in Beijing because the Americans had the temerity to publish the more meaningful measure). I'm pretty sure that if we had data on PM2.5 it would look even worse for Bangkok.

Edited April 4, 2014 by sundrenched

[loong]

The pollution is horrible! -- Yes, if you live in the middle of an 11 million person city, the pollution is probably going to be pretty bad. That goes for every 10+ million person city in the world though.

The pollution out in the country is as bad if not worse.

Every morning and evening we have the villagers starting their cooking fires with bits of old inner tube or other rubber.

When they eventually clear up their rubbish they will burn huge amounts of plastic.

Charcoal makers don't care about the fumes and will make a charcoal pit right next to the school.

All around they are burning sugar cane prior to harvesting

After harvesting rice or anything else - burn the residue.

Going to the big city is like a breath of fresh air!