American-No Bank Account, No Visa Catch 22. Help please.

[Maestro]

I believe banks make it a rule that a current account (with a check book) can be opened only with a work permit. Some bank employees mistakenly also apply this rule to savings accounts. When asking at a bank to open an account, make sure to ask for a savings account and this will hopefully reduce the number of rejections you get, but it will of course not remove the complications due to your being a national of the USA.

[rastlin]

If he's using a bank account method to get a retirement extension in Thailand (800K or combo method) then yes he will NEED a Thai bank account. You're assuming he has 65K income. Don't assume that. Also, please don't suggest that people lie to the U.S. embassy and Thai immigration about fake income either! That is not a solution.

Even without the need for a Thai bank account for immigration, it would not be convenient to live full time in Thailand without a Thai bank account. I have multiple ones which right now seems to be better than having just one.

He hasnt got the visa yet,but wants to set up acc.to deposit 800k.He can show that amount in a US bank and get OA visa in the US.He can then withdraw money using US card.No need to have Thai bank ever,but a bit more costly.

Thanks.

I didn't know this I thought you had to have a thai bank account and have the money in the account for three months to get the visa. I don't remember reading anywhere I could use a US bank account for the visa.

Can someone elaborate on this, to my eyes at least, loophole?

edit: I see someone linked something on the OA visa after this post and I will read that too.

Edited April 7, 2014 by rastlin

[rastlin]

I believe banks make it a rule that a current account (with a check book) can be opened only with a work permit. Some bank employees mistakenly also apply this rule to savings accounts. When asking at a bank to open an account, make sure to ask for a savings account and this will hopefully reduce the number of rejections you get, but it will of course not remove the complications due to your being a national of the USA.

thanks. I did ask for a savings account

[rastlin]

I have Bangkok Bank and Kasikorn Bank, and am an American. I would try other KKorn/BBank branches.

I've found there to be quite a difference from branch to branch.

Wouldn,t hurt to have a Thai girlfriend with you.

haha thanks but having her along probably would not help my cause.

[Maestro]

FBAR has been mentioned and this is indeed becoming an obstacle for many US citizens having or wishing to open any type of bank account outside the USA. In Switzerland, for example, many banks refuse categorically to open new accounts for US nationals or residents and close existing accounts. Banks that continue to continue to deal US customers ask for written evidence that their account and the income derived from it is correctly declared in their US tax return. Without this evidence, existing accounts are closed.

It hasn't come to this point yet in Thailand for existing accounts, I believe, and unlike Swiss banks no Thai bank has been sued yet by the US government for conspiracy in tax evasion and threatened with heavy fines and imprisonment of bank employees travelling to the USA or working in US subsidiaries of the bank.

[thrilled]

The FATCA U.S. Law states that not only Thailand banks,but every country in the world has to inform the U.S government of all Americans that have bank accounts in their country,or they will be penalized.Um now countries like China,Russia,Iran and some other countries that ignore the U.S.government.I believe all countries should push back.But I doubt they will.So anyway this subject isn't going away.Hold on we might be going on A wild ride.

[Maestro]

Money laundering is another aspect. I believe Thailand got off the FATF blacklist only recently and is making efforts to remain off it. Denying bank accounts to US citizens may be part of this effort, but I may be wrong.

[Maestro]

The FATCA U.S. Law states that not only Thailand banks,but every country in the world has to inform the U.S government of all Americans that have bank accounts in their country,or they will be penalized.Um now countries like China,Russia,Iran and some other countries that ignore the U.S.government.I believe all countries should push back.But I doubt they will.So anyway this subject isn't going away.Hold on we might be going on A wild ride.

You are right. I mentioned FBAR, but my post really was about FACTA. Thank you for the heads-up. It must be the new FACTA that is prompting Thai banks, and banks worldwide, to be reluctant to open new accounts for US citizens and residents and to maintain existing accounts.

[ballbreaker]

The U.S. Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is the moving force behind foreign banks refusal to open accounts for Americans. According to the link below there are now currently 26 countries that have inter governmental agreements (IGA's) with the U.S. There are another 22 countries listed that have agreed in substance to an IGA. I'm sure many more will sign on in the coming year.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Pages/FATCA-Archive.aspx

Will Thailand be one of the countries that sign's and IGA in the coming year?

[Evolare]

I have one friend who had that problem. But finally he got an account at CIMB which is a malaysian owned bank after he had that account he was able to open an account at bangkok bank aswell.

[thailiketoo]

Go to the main office of Bangkok Bank in Bangkok or Pattaya or any other city as far as I know and you will have no trouble opening up an account. At least I didn't. I have 5 different accounts at different banks in Thailand the last one being Bangkok Bank a week ago.

If the OP does go to the main office and has a problem please let us know.

[thepool]

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The U.S. Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is the moving force behind foreign banks refusal to open accounts for Americans. According to the link below there are now currently 26 countries that have inter governmental agreements (IGA's) with the U.S. There are another 22 countries listed that have agreed in substance to an IGA. I'm sure many more will sign on in the coming year.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Pages/FATCA-Archive.aspx

Will Thailand be one of the countries that sign's and IGA in the coming year?

Governments agreeing to comply with American demand does not commit banks to having to deal with or provide Americans with banking facilities. Many will refuse owing to the costs of compliance.

The alternative is that Banks will load the costs of compliance onto American account holders.

[Jingthing]

Go to the main office of Bangkok Bank in Bangkok or Pattaya or any other city as far as I know and you will have no trouble opening up an account. At least I didn't. I have 5 different accounts at different banks in Thailand the last one being Bangkok Bank a week ago.

If the OP does go to the main office and has a problem please let us know.

Generally, reports before 2014 are not really relevant in specific regards to any issues with AMERICAN passport holders. This American objection thing being explicitly stated is a recent (and in my view predictable) issue. Other than that I totally agree worth a try.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The FATCA U.S. Law states that not only Thailand banks,but every country in the world has to inform the U.S government of all Americans that have bank accounts in their country,or they will be penalized.Um now countries like China,Russia,Iran and some other countries that ignore the U.S.government.I believe all countries should push back.But I doubt they will.So anyway this subject isn't going away.Hold on we might be going on A wild ride.

You are right. I mentioned FBAR, but my post really was about FACTA. Thank you for the heads-up. It must be the new FACTA that is prompting Thai banks, and banks worldwide, to be reluctant to open new accounts for US citizens and residents and to maintain existing accounts.

That sounds right to me though I am no expert. Enforcement (related to foreign banks cooperating) is kicking in THIS YEAR. That's why this is going to be really on the radar this year (at least).

Edited April 7, 2014 by Jingthing

[riclag]

Go to the main office of Bangkok Bank in Bangkok or Pattaya or any other city as far as I know and you will have no trouble opening up an account. At least I didn't. I have 5 different accounts at different banks in Thailand the last one being Bangkok Bank a week ago.

If the OP does go to the main office and has a problem please let us know.

Sorry ,If it was as easy as you say then these issue's of being rejected and or being denied for opening a simple savings account wouldn't need to be addressed in this forum .

[55Jay]

The U.S. Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is the moving force behind foreign banks refusal to open accounts for Americans. According to the link below there are now currently 26 countries that have inter governmental agreements (IGA's) with the U.S. There are another 22 countries listed that have agreed in substance to an IGA. I'm sure many more will sign on in the coming year.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Pages/FATCA-Archive.aspx

Will Thailand be one of the countries that sign's and IGA in the coming year?

Thought I read somewhere that Thailand suggests one with ASEAN instead. Reading the Canada agreement (just because it was top of the list) gave me an idea why.

[deepcell]

400K or 800K in a Thai Bank ? such a mess!

[Jingthing]

Talk about a mess.

Suppose you feel it's time to run back to the U.S.S.A. and you've got real estate to sell here.

Imagine doing that with no Thai bank account.

[JSixpack]

Kasikorn Bank low level clerk told me something goes into effect starting April 1 and that they will have a letter for all Americans (only Americans, no other nationalities) with existing accounts available saying something, but will not be directly contacting Americans to tell them to pick up this letter. Weird, huh? Just passing this along, can't confirm how credible.

How about you going by the bank this week and getting the letter and then you can confirm how credible.

And then it'll be out of the way.

[Jingthing]

Kasikorn Bank low level clerk told me something goes into effect starting April 1 and that they will have a letter for all Americans (only Americans, no other nationalities) with existing accounts available saying something, but will not be directly contacting Americans to tell them to pick up this letter. Weird, huh? Just passing this along, can't confirm how credible.

How about you going by the bank this week and getting the letter and then you can confirm how credible.

And then it'll be out of the way.

Honestly, because I doubt that they'll really have a letter even though that was what I was told. You asked. I answered.

[JimGant]

The FATCA U.S. Law states that not only Thailand banks,but every country in the world has to inform the U.S government of all Americans that have bank accounts in their country

Wrong. Financial institutions that decide to cooperate with FATCA only have to report on US person accounts that aggregate to more than $50,000 on Dec 31st year previous (or were opened or closed during the previous year for more than $50k). How many reading this have accounts in a single Thai bank aggregating to over 1.6 million baht? And, if I did have that kind of money available for Thai banking, I'd sure split it amongst several Thai banks -- not 'cause of FATCA, but because of risk management.

And, for existing accounts, banks only have to do an "electronic search" with the ADP resources in-place. No physical look-see (except for accounts over $1M), nor surveys of existing customers to identify US persons. That we may see surveys of existing customers who *may* be Yankees will just be overreaction.

And look what an IGA got Singapore:

Under the Model 1 IGA, financial institutions in Singapore must register with the IRS and must report information on US accounts to IRAS who will then exchange this information with the IRS.

Financial institutions:

• will not have to enter into an Agreement directly with the IRS;
• will not be subject to FATCA withholding;
• do not have to impose FATCA withholding on any payments to any other non-US financial institutions (even non-FATCA compliant financial institutions), any non-financial non-US entities or account holders who fail to provide the financial institution with sufficient information to determine the status of the account holder (recalcitrant account holders); and
• do not have to close accounts of recalcitrant account holders.

Gosh, looks like they got a pass on most of the onerous parts of FATCA. Hope Thailand's eventual IGA looks like this.

Oh, seems the rest of the world has become interested in gathering tax related info on their citizen's foreign financial holdings:

In May of this year, the G5 agreed to pilot a multilateral agreement for the automatic exchange of a wide range of financial information and at the G20 summit in September 2013, the G20 endorsed the development of a new global tax standard: to automatic exchange of information.

Heads up, non US persons.

And if you read the papers, most of the accounts closed to US citizens have been wealth management accounts, which have been subject to onerous regulations pre-FATCA.

If Americans choose to bank with a non-U.S. firm such as HSBC, their investment choices are limited. At the HSBC branch in the bank’s Asia regional headquarters in Hong Kong, Americans can hold only savings deposits. They’re prohibited from opening accounts to trade local stocks or buy products available to non- U.S. customers, including 45 equity funds investing in China or other geographies and industries.

As far as the OP being denied an account because he's an American, I guess it's possible. Each bank manager has his own rice bowl, to some extent. But to think that this is now (or will be soon) Bangkok Bank policy is nuts. If this incident, or similar, were elevated to a corporate decision making level, that would be the end of that. Bangkok Bank is not about to jeopardize it's New York operation ("hello, Senator Cruz, lemme tell ya my banking story..."), mainly from the commercial banking aspect, but also because they have the monopoly with US Federal Direct Deposits, as well as the only ACH game in town (which, probably because of this forum, has become a profit center ). And the cost element of this cost/benefit analysis is minute -- identify existing account holders with US indicia (mainly, having a US passport when account was opened). And if so, did his accounts total over $50,000 Dec 31, 2013? Yes? Send him a W-9 to fill out (but, not many of these, I'm sure). New applicant, are you a Yank? No? Have a nice day (Of course, a little more involved than this: Thai passport, but born in the USA -- follow-up by the bank is required, which does add cost. But, how many of these could be expected.)

Relax.

[Jingthing]

Question:

As the consensus here is that Bangkok Bank is the LEAST LIKELY of all the Thai banks to actually have a no-Americans policy (after this shakes out), and given the extra feature of ACH transfers from the US via New York (the only Thai bank offering that) wouldn't it be prudent for current expats with accounts at OTHER Thai banks to open a Bangkok Bank account (at least as a backup) if they don't have one already?

[hawker9000]

Kasikorn Bank low level clerk told me something goes into effect starting April 1 and that they will have a letter for all Americans (only Americans, no other nationalities) with existing accounts available saying something, but will not be directly contacting Americans to tell them to pick up this letter. Weird, huh? Just passing this along, can't confirm how credible.

This is a moving target now.

I suspect we'll know so much more by this time next year.

We're in a time of uncertainty now in regard to Americans banking in Thailand.

Yeah, you posted this somewhere else here, too. 'Haven't heard a single word about this letter from anyone else yet. (And just completed a transfer BTW; no problem.)

[Jingthing]

I'm just reporting what I was told. I was in there for other business at a customer service desk and my passport needed copying. So as the clerk saw my nationality the subject came up. Cheers.

[JimGant]

Question:

As the consensus here is that Bangkok Bank is the LEAST LIKELY of all the Thai banks to actually have a no-Americans policy (after this shakes out), and given the extra feature of ACH transfers from the US via New York (the only Thai bank offering that) wouldn't it be prudent for current expats with accounts at OTHER Thai banks to open a Bangkok Bank account (at least as a backup) if they don't have one already?

Rhetorical question, right?

Actually, having such an account just as an ACH conduit to the Thai bank of your choice floats my boat. (Do an ACH, then use your BB on-line banking account to 3rd party transfer to your Thai bank of choice.)

[JimGant]

I'm just reporting what I was told. I was in there for other business at a customer service desk and my passport needed copying. So as the clerk saw my nationality the subject came up. Cheers.

Jing, a possible scenario:

K bank has run their data search for all accounts opened with US passports. And they've stored all the hits they've gotten. But, under FATCA 'due diligence' (which is ill defined), have they done enough? What about folks like my wife -- a US citizen, with dual Thai citizenship -- but whose account information only has Thai ID, Thai address, and Thai birthplace (if that was even asked for). Absolutely nothing to indicate a US person (although -- and this is puzzling -- US indicia includes sending money to the US -- but nothing about receiving money from the US -- and every penny in her accounts has been sent (and SWIFT encoded, as are BB NY's ACH transfers) from US banks.)

Anyway, if my wife had a K bank account -- and saw a notice asking for US persons to please identify themselves, she'd no doubt comply. Thus, K bank would have one more US person to add to the list heretofore limited to accounts opened with US passports.

Hey, Uncle Sam, how'd you like our due diligence......sayeth K bank.

I'm sure, without yet an IGA, and pretty sparse guidance -- Thai banks are having to answer their own questions. We've already seen where a bank in Thailand sent out requests for W-9 info to all their identified US account holders (another thread, reported by TallGuyJohn). Thus, one knee jerk reaction so far -- K bank may be the second.

Wish our friend at Bangkok Bank (who, apparently, no longer frequents this forum) would give us an update.....

[Jingthing]

Your thinking is more sophisticated that mine on these matters, so I won't even venture a guess. I will say this ... as I'm probably too lazy to go in there anytime soon, if any of you American K-bank account holders have business in there soon which will require having your passport, perhaps you'd like to be the volunteer and ask for the letter? I think I recall I was told to bring my passport again. Pretty weird, like Americans are supposed to know to go in there with their passports without being contacted by the bank in any way.

[hawker9000]

There is one more tiny wrinkle in this, but I don't see how it should pose much of a problem for US depositors in Thai banks. The wrinkle (if you want to call it that) is something called the "Dodd-Frank" Act, which per my own financial institution, is something that went into effect in the October timeframe and requires Americans transferring money to foreign banks to receive certain "disclosures" regarding fees charged by the foreign bank on their transfers. To comply with the disclosure requirement the US transferring bank has to know the fees and to know the fees there has to be some sort of prior electronic communication between the two banks (the US bank and the foreign receiving bank). In my case, this is actually going to eliminate the use of an intermediary bank (JP Morgan, which WAS getting a small fee...).

The name "Dodd-Frank" sounds familiar. I thought that was some older legislation having to do with bank oversight (or not being able to play both banker & broker roles, or something like that). Anyway - this was for me just a few extra minutes on the phone to give my institution the SWIFT code for my thai bank (which I could've sworn they already had). 'But has to do with new required fee disclosures; nothing to do with "FATCA" as is being discussed here.

[manarak]

I agree, NancyL. There is no reason to stop trying yet for the OP or any American. But whatever happened, if he got pushed back because of the excuse AMERICAN, whatever the details, however low the staff, this is still a warning sign of things to come.

We can use this forum here to communicate about developments on this and related American-Thailand banking issues because this is going to be an ongoing story for quite some time.

I hope such refusals get more common around the world, because it sends a clear signal that US bullying has gone too far.

[hawker9000]

I agree, NancyL. There is no reason to stop trying yet for the OP or any American. But whatever happened, if he got pushed back because of the excuse AMERICAN, whatever the details, however low the staff, this is still a warning sign of things to come.

We can use this forum here to communicate about developments on this and related American-Thailand banking issues because this is going to be an ongoing story for quite some time.

I hope such refusals get more common around the world, because it sends a clear signal that US bullying has gone too far.

Oh, it's only Americans that'll be much inconvenienced by it (if it pans out as the doomsayers have it, that is). It already gives the America-haters as well as the drama queens a little something juicy to drool over. I think JimGant's got this about right. The problem is that misinformation is very contagious in Thailand, and that applies as much to Thai businesses as it does to foreigners. I can easily see bank branch personnel "getting it wrong", overreacting to what THEY hear about these reporting requirements, and denying new accounts to Americans based on the misinformation. If so, it'll eventually blow over.