Critics divided on independent bodies and the extent of their powers

[Lite Beer]

Critics divided on independent bodies and the extent of their powers
Pravit Rojanaphruk
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Will there be a "judicial coup" soon? The answer is much more complicated than merely asking if there will be a military coup with tanks rolling down the streets of Bangkok.

Opponents of a "judicial coup", like the former dean of Chiang Mai University's Law Faculty Somchai Silpapreechakul, says the exercising of power by the Constitutional Court and the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC) against caretaker premier Yingluck Shinawatra is beyond their bounds of power and should be regarded judicial intervention. However, opponents think not.

Somchai acknowledges that Thai society is still unfamiliar with the notion of a "judicial coup" and there's no one common Thai translation appropriate to it. Also there's room to debate whether the action of the two organisations in the weeks to come - that could lead to the removal of Yingluck and possibly the whole caretaker Cabinet - do constitute a judicial coup or not.

"In my view, a judicial coup occurs when the courts and judicial institutions perform duties beyond the bounds of their authority and interpret their power beyond their limits," Somchai said.

The law lecturer said that in his view, the Constitutional Court had no mandate to rule on the legality of the Yingluck Cabinet's transfer of National Security Council (NSC) chief Thawil Pliensri in 2011 as Yingluck is now in a caretaker capacity. It should also be questioned whether the PM has the authority to transfer senior officials at all, he said.

As for the NACC, Somchai said the speed at which the anti-graft body is pursuing Yingluck's case on alleged dereliction of duty over the rice pledging scheme, when compared to the slowness of many other cases, lead to doubt about whether the NACC was unfairly pursuing the case.

Somchai also noted apparent hesitation by the Election Commission (EC) to hold an election as another example of a possible facet of a judicial coup. He said instead of holding election within 60 days as stipulated by the Constitution, the EC is now insisting it will not hold a poll until there's no serious risk of obstruction by opponents of the election.

"Are there laws legitimising the NACC, the Constitutional Court and the EC to do all these things?" he asked, adding that two key points that must be examined on whether such acts constitute a judicial coup or not are: whether or not the organisation really has the authority, and whether or not what they do is legitimate.

Somchai acknowledges, however, there will be differing views and debate. Chaiwat Thirapantu, a leader of the anti-government People's Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC) told The Nation there's no such thing as a judicial coup - what the Constitutional Court and the NACC do will be legal and constitutional.

"How can it be called a judicial coup when it's legal?" Chaiwat asked.

Somchai says greater debate and education is needed to make the public understand what he believes is a subtle form of coup.

He said merely protesting against a "judicial coup" on the streets wouldn't be enough and called for a boycott of institutions that act in interventionist way.

"We must explain about legitimacy and point out how problematic it is," he said.

-- The Nation 2014-04-12

[noitom]

Thai ifs, and, but, because, and as long as. Thais thinking. very dangerous. They're creating it the law on the fly the natural way for Thais to do things.

[Rich teacher]

A dean of a university law faculty has serious questions about the validity of the current judicial processes against Yingluck, but the TV yellows have unanimously decided, without any doubt, that it is all legitimate.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Rich teacher

[chainarong]

It is quiet apparent that if these independent bodies didn't exist there would be total break down of rule of law , as the present lot of spivs would have a field day , I am very impressed of the guts the judges have shown while taking on the PTP and its bagmen and have shown great restraint in the face of intimidation and threats of physical violence , leave the system alone until a better time for a review (if there will be one ) the present system has served the people well

[Nickymaster]

A dean of a university law faculty has serious questions about the validity of the current judicial processes against Yingluck, but the TV yellows have unanimously decided, without any doubt, that it is all legitimate.

Unimportant what this dean from Chiang Mai says or what we think. This rice case is huge, withe large amounts of money involved. So what is the problem when the NACC want to speed up the case? The question is: has Yingluck been negligent? I want to see what the NACC has to show us before I criticize them but the reds here already know for sure that it is a judicial coup in the making. Boring! Edited April 12, 2014 by Nickymaster

[pkspeaker]

The 'independent bodies' were all corrupted after the last coup. They were stacked with anti-democracy pad activists..

lets take a look at NaCC chief Wicha Mahakhom:

http://asiancorrespondent.com/121489/new-york-times-on-the-impending-judicial-coup/

We all know elections are evil, Mr. Wicha said at the time, arguing that power must be transferred into the hands of judges rather than elected representatives, who he said had caused the country to collapse.

People, especially academics who want to see the Constitution lead to genuine democracy, are naïve, he said.

The NaCC and constitution court are clearly against democracy, they use the 'corruption' excuse to deny the people democratic rights, just like every dictator has done since the end og wwii, it's an old and tired tactic, make false accusations of 'corruption' to justify dictatorship.

[Melyn]

It matters not a hoot what someone from the red shirt town of Chiang Mai thinks. Home to the Shinawatra family who believe they are beyond the law.

What matters are the facts, the evidence and the ultimate outcome in a court of law.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ggold]

A dean of a university law faculty has serious questions about the validity of the current judicial processes against Yingluck, but the TV yellows have unanimously decided, without any doubt, that it is all legitimate.

Surely you can do better than that? The OP has given you a great chance to push the red agenda, and that is the best you can do?

You are letting the side down!

[fab4]

It is quiet apparent that if these independent bodies didn't exist there would be total break down of rule of law , as the present lot of spivs would have a field day , I am very impressed of the guts the judges have shown while taking on the PTP and its bagmen and have shown great restraint in the face of intimidation and threats of physical violence , leave the system alone until a better time for a review (if there will be one ) the present system has served the people well

the present system has served certain people well......................

[fab4]

It matters not a hoot what someone from the red shirt town of Chiang Mai thinks. Home to the Shinawatra family who believe they are beyond the law.

What matters are the facts, the evidence and the ultimate outcome in a court of law.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

The problem is the ultimate outcome does not always have any relationship to the facts or evidence but is merely interpretation on a whim

[issanaus]

Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so there need to be checks and balances

Those who seek absolute power will complain when it acts against their wishes and use the same against their opponents

[fab4]

Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so there need to be checks and balances

Those who seek absolute power will complain when it acts against their wishes and use the same against their opponents

Nothing wrong with genuinely independant checks and balances....................

[Scamper]

The opinions of this former dean of a Chaing Mai university could just as easily have been uttered by Ko Tee. There is not a single thing that he says that Ko Tee wouldn't agree with. Let's enumerate them :

First of all, he uses the phrase " judicial coup " as if it was an embraced and self-evident part of the legal lexicon.This is convenient, because it doesn't therefore really require any in-depth explanation :

" Somchai acknowledges that Thai society is still unfamiliar with the notion of a "judicial coup" and there's no one common Thai translation appropriate to it. "

​How convenient. That's some acknowledgment. So we're to assume that although the concept exists, it actually eludes definition.

" In my view, a judicial coup occurs when the courts and judicial institutions perform duties beyond the bounds of their authority and interpret their power beyond their limits," Somchai said. "

But who is to determine that ? CAPO ? Yingluck's facebook page ? Ko Tee ? ( if anyone can find him ). Somchai also mimics the Pheu Thai narrative that Yingluck is apparently beyond the reach of the case being considered by the Constitutional Court as she is caretaker prime minister. Are we then to assume that there is a statute of limitations regarding abuse of office ? ( I guess we are ). He also touches upon other Yingluck facebook talking points - the NACC " rushed " their sixteen month investigation, as well as - like Pheu Thai - casting aspersions on the National Election Commission - a body that Pheu Thai felt had the effrontery to appeal to the Constitutional Court on the necessity of an election decree.

But at the end of the day, it's views like these that Yingluck, Thaksin, Pheu Thai, Ko Tee and Jatuporn will be depending upon when they plunge into their response after the Constitutional Court makes its ruling. Pheu Thai's supporters will, as well. In fact, they've already started. Like Thida, they aren't bothering to define " judicial coup " either. Like Thida, it is self-evident. Like Thida, they will simply state that it exists, and therefore, that the judicial process has lost legitimacy, and that therefore, the rulings can be ignored. One thing will surprise Pheu Thai, though, and in fact will surprise their supporters even more - the international community will not share their narrative. The international community will - overnight - condemn in no uncertain terms the concept that a ruling from the highest constitutional court in the land would not be acknowledged and adhered to, as it should. That is the path that Pheu Thai and their supporters are on. And it's indefensible.

[ggold]

It is quiet apparent that if these independent bodies didn't exist there would be total break down of rule of law , as the present lot of spivs would have a field day , I am very impressed of the guts the judges have shown while taking on the PTP and its bagmen and have shown great restraint in the face of intimidation and threats of physical violence , leave the system alone until a better time for a review (if there will be one ) the present system has served the people well

the present system has served certain people well......................

Indeed, they are Thaksin and Yingluk, Chalerm, Surapong etc etc,

[Melyn]

It matters not a hoot what someone from the red shirt town of Chiang Mai thinks. Home to the Shinawatra family who believe they are beyond the law.

What matters are the facts, the evidence and the ultimate outcome in a court of law.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

The problem is the ultimate outcome does not always have any relationship to the facts or evidence but is merely interpretation on a whim

I don't know too many smart football managers who complain about the ref before the game has kicked off.

The CC is still very new and one should bear in mind that it has often ruled in favour of PTP

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Melyn]

Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so there need to be checks and balances

Those who seek absolute power will complain when it acts against their wishes and use the same against their opponents

Nothing wrong with genuinely independant checks and balances....................

What rulings have been made that you disagree with and on what grounds?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[WoopyDoo]

He said merely protesting against a "judicial coup" on the streets wouldn't be enough and called for a boycott of institutions that act in interventionist way.

Another red fool that is advising that the courts are to be ignored.

Hiding behind a technicality that YL is now in 'caretaker mode' and therefore anything she did in office, is now nullified, and she is above the law now.

Yet the constitution says that the PM must remain in office until a new PM is chosen, so technically she is actually still 'in office' and therefore can be removed under any and all articles of the constitution that rules toward the removal of a PM... and let's face it... She has done plenty to be removed under the constitution.

People who come out and say that institutions of the law should be ignored and boycotted are very dangerous people indeed.

However, I challenge YL and the PTP to take his advice and refuse to accept the court rulings and we will see what the result will be.

I don't recommend it YL..... It is tantamount to 'treason'.

[Thai at Heart]

A dean of a university law faculty has serious questions about the validity of the current judicial processes against Yingluck, but the TV yellows have unanimously decided, without any doubt, that it is all legitimate.

Unimportant what this dean from Chiang Mai says or what we think. This rice case is huge, withe large amounts of money involved. So what is the problem when the NACC want to speed up the case? The question is: has Yingluck been negligent? I want to see what the NACC has to show us before I criticize them but the reds here already know for sure that it is a judicial coup in the making. Boring!

As yet, the hard evidence is very conspicuous in its absence. So far, it has been "prove you didn't know about the unpublished corruption".

[Thai at Heart]

The 'independent bodies' were all corrupted after the last coup. They were stacked with anti-democracy pad activists..

lets take a look at NaCC chief Wicha Mahakhom:

http://asiancorrespondent.com/121489/new-york-times-on-the-impending-judicial-coup/

We all know elections are evil, Mr. Wicha said at the time, arguing that power must be transferred into the hands of judges rather than elected representatives, who he said had caused the country to collapse.

People, especially academics who want to see the Constitution lead to genuine democracy, are naïve, he said.

The NaCC and constitution court are clearly against democracy, they use the 'corruption' excuse to deny the people democratic rights, just like every dictator has done since the end og wwii, it's an old and tired tactic, make false accusations of 'corruption' to justify dictatorship.

He must be fun at a dinner party.

Hello. And what do you do?

I subvert democracy for a living.

[fab4]

Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so there need to be checks and balances

Those who seek absolute power will complain when it acts against their wishes and use the same against their opponents

Nothing wrong with genuinely independant checks and balances....................

What rulings have been made that you disagree with and on what grounds?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Where do I start, my disagreements and "grounds for" have been posted on various threads on here - you can chase after them if you wish. Try the first ruling on the alleged unconstitutional act of amending the constitution when the first attempt was made back in 2012, the cc ruling on whether complaints wrt article 68 should be made by the AG or not, the ruling on the amendment to the section regarding the election of senators, the AEC conviction of Thaksin, the many trumped up charges of members of the UDD over 2010, the refusal of bail for same, the double standards applied by the courts, the ruling over dissolution of the dems being dropped due to a technicality.............etc.

[FangFerang]

It matters not a hoot what someone from the red shirt town of Chiang Mai thinks. Home to the Shinawatra family who believe they are beyond the law.

What matters are the facts, the evidence and the ultimate outcome in a court of law.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Ad hominem attacks -- attacking the person rather than what they say -- are cheap shots and short-sighted thinking. You did not address a single issue the article raised, but tromped along to the goose stepping march of a fascist drum, while simultaneously claiming facts, evidence and law are what counts. Whose facts? Whose evidence? Whose outcome? Ask the Chinese how facts, evidence and outcomes are decided. Ask Ayotollah Khomeini.....

You have selective memory, on purpose. You arguments, more like cheer-leading chants, do not hold water.

Edited April 12, 2014 by FangFerang

[Melyn]

Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so there need to be checks and balances

Those who seek absolute power will complain when it acts against their wishes and use the same against their opponents

Nothing wrong with genuinely independant checks and balances....................

What rulings have been made that you disagree with and on what grounds?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Where do I start, my disagreements and "grounds for" have been posted on various threads on here - you can chase after them if you wish. Try the first ruling on the alleged unconstitutional act of amending the constitution when the first attempt was made back in 2012, the cc ruling on whether complaints wrt article 68 should be made by the AG or not, the ruling on the amendment to the section regarding the election of senators, the AEC conviction of Thaksin, the many trumped up charges of members of the UDD over 2010, the refusal of bail for same, the double standards applied by the courts, the ruling over dissolution of the dems being dropped due to a technicality.............etc.

The AEC is history now - but it just collected evidence and passed it to the appropriate court.

Changes to the constitution seemed to me to be using the precedent of referendum from the junta.

Referrals via the AG is purely a procedural issue. If there's a case and evidence then so be it. How many decisions against PTP came through this route?

The UDD charges have taken too long for sure - but the leaders that were in on terrorist charges have been freed.

The charges against the Dems- was this the manner of collecting funding?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Melyn]

It matters not a hoot what someone from the red shirt town of Chiang Mai thinks. Home to the Shinawatra family who believe they are beyond the law.

What matters are the facts, the evidence and the ultimate outcome in a court of law.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Ad hominem attacks -- attacking the person rather than what they say -- are cheap shots and short-sighted thinking. You did not address a single issue the article raised, but tromped along to the goose stepping march of a fascist drum, while simultaneously claiming facts, evidence and law are what counts. Whose facts? Whose evidence? Whose outcome? Ask the Chinese how facts, evidence and outcomes are decided. Ask Ayotollah Khomeini.....

You have selective memory, on purpose. You arguments, more like cheer-leading chants, do not hold water.

Ad hominem attacks - is that Latin for the attacks on the gay march by rak Chiang mai 51?

The dean didn't say anything convincing to me and I didn't say anything derogatory about him.

Trumped up goosestepping march of a fascist blah blah blah. To me that resonates of the manner in which PTP behaved in the house in the final quarter of 2013

Whether you like it or not, it is the facts and evidence that matter whether dealing with Yingluck, Suthep, Ko Tee or Somchai the coconut rustler

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Baerboxer]

A dean of a university law faculty has serious questions about the validity of the current judicial processes against Yingluck, but the TV yellows have unanimously decided, without any doubt, that it is all legitimate.

One dean out of many, and one who just happens to be associated with Chiang Mai University - the center of her feudal Chinese wealthy elite family's power base. And the TV Reds will hail him as most fair legal expert in the country.

He seems to be arguing that is doesn't matter if she's as guilty as hell. What matters is they can't pursue the case any quicker than any other. Even if here, the evidence is very straight forward. Astonishing.

[Baerboxer]

It is quiet apparent that if these independent bodies didn't exist there would be total break down of rule of law , as the present lot of spivs would have a field day , I am very impressed of the guts the judges have shown while taking on the PTP and its bagmen and have shown great restraint in the face of intimidation and threats of physical violence , leave the system alone until a better time for a review (if there will be one ) the present system has served the people well

the present system has served certain people well......................

not stopped certain people increasing their wealth fantastically over their period in office as it................

[Nickymaster]

The 'independent bodies' were all corrupted after the last coup. They were stacked with anti-democracy pad activists..

lets take a look at NaCC chief Wicha Mahakhom:

http://asiancorrespondent.com/121489/new-york-times-on-the-impending-judicial-coup/

We all know elections are evil, Mr. Wicha said at the time, arguing that power must be transferred into the hands of judges rather than elected representatives, who he said had caused the country to collapse.

People, especially academics who want to see the Constitution lead to genuine democracy, are naïve, he said.

The NaCC and constitution court are clearly against democracy, they use the 'corruption' excuse to deny the people democratic rights, just like every dictator has done since the end og wwii, it's an old and tired tactic, make false accusations of 'corruption' to justify dictatorship.

Spending 30 billion USD without transparency smells like massive corruption. So what is the false accusation in your opinion? You talk like boppe. Kill the courts and avoid the issue at hand. Funny!

Edited April 12, 2014 by Nickymaster

[Morch]

A dean of a university law faculty has serious questions about the validity of the current judicial processes against Yingluck, but the TV yellows have unanimously decided, without any doubt, that it is all legitimate.

Even the former dean recognizes that his is but one possible interpretation of the legal situation:

Somchai acknowledges, however, there will be differing views and debate.

[Morch]

The 'independent bodies' were all corrupted after the last coup. They were stacked with anti-democracy pad activists..

lets take a look at NaCC chief Wicha Mahakhom:

http://asiancorrespondent.com/121489/new-york-times-on-the-impending-judicial-coup/

We all know elections are evil, Mr. Wicha said at the time, arguing that power must be transferred into the hands of judges rather than elected representatives, who he said had caused the country to collapse.

People, especially academics who want to see the Constitution lead to genuine democracy, are naïve, he said.

The NaCC and constitution court are clearly against democracy, they use the 'corruption' excuse to deny the people democratic rights, just like every dictator has done since the end og wwii, it's an old and tired tactic, make false accusations of 'corruption' to justify dictatorship.

Yes, as opposed to....

"Democracy is a good and beautiful thing, but it's not the ultimate goal as far as administering the country is concerned,"

"Democracy is just a tool, not our goal. The goal is to give people a good lifestyle, happiness and national progress."

"Democracy is a vehicle...We can't drive a Rolls-Royce to a rural village and solve people's problems. A pickup truck or good off-road car will do. We just need to think carefully and make the right choices."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/PMS-DECLARATIONDemocracy-is-not-my-goal-90316.html

[metisdead]

A post attempting to bring HM the King into a political discussion has been removed, please remember there is to be:

No Discussion Of The Monarchy In Political Context

[fab4]

What rulings have been made that you disagree with and on what grounds?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Where do I start, my disagreements and "grounds for" have been posted on various threads on here - you can chase after them if you wish. Try the first ruling on the alleged unconstitutional act of amending the constitution when the first attempt was made back in 2012, the cc ruling on whether complaints wrt article 68 should be made by the AG or not, the ruling on the amendment to the section regarding the election of senators, the AEC conviction of Thaksin, the many trumped up charges of members of the UDD over 2010, the refusal of bail for same, the double standards applied by the courts, the ruling over dissolution of the dems being dropped due to a technicality.............etc.

The AEC is history now - but it just collected evidence and passed it to the appropriate court.

Changes to the constitution seemed to me to be using the precedent of referendum from the junta.

Referrals via the AG is purely a procedural issue. If there's a case and evidence then so be it. How many decisions against PTP came through this route?

The UDD charges have taken too long for sure - but the leaders that were in on terrorist charges have been freed.

The charges against the Dems- was this the manner of collecting funding?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

The AEC may be history but its legacy is alive and well living on as the NACC.

By the way, the AEC didn't just collect evidence and pass it to the court, it actively put pressure on the FIDF to bring charges even though the FIDF are on record as saying there was nothing wrong with the transaction.

There is no precedent of referendum from the junta. The CC fabricated a ruling that the PTP had to hold a referendum before rewriting the constitution citing the Junta written 2007 referendum. What they and apparently you are conveniently overlooking is that the junta did not hold a referendum before ripping up the 1997 constitution - they only held a loaded referendum after they had rewritten the constitution.

Referrals via the AG is a procedural issue - one the the CC rewrote. Before PTP, any complaint to the CC invoking article 68 had to be vetted by the AG to avoid spurious complaints being filed. Of course when it came to the dems filing spurious complaints invoking article 68, this had to be reinterpreted so that they could do so easily. Cue a flurry of article 68 complaints from the dems and/or their backers, culminating in the surreal invocation of article 68 over the election of senators amendment attempt.

UDD charges - I wasn't talking about the leaders, I was talking about the rank and file members of the UDD being prosecuted for minor breaches of the Emergency Decree, yet being imprisoned for 3 years or so and being continually denied bail.

The dissolution case against the dems involved 2 cases. The first case was dropped on a technicality because of an interpretation of which law applied , the Junta one or the previous version.Of course the law that favoured the dems (which meant that the chairman of the EC had filed the charge too late) was applied. The second more damaging case involving an illegal donation of 258 Million baht to the democrat party by TPI Tolene was dropped after the judges voted 4-3 on a technicality.

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/424402-court-dismisses-second-dissolution-case-against-thai-democrat/page-2#entry4077774)