Thai eggplants

[Kanga Japan]

Does anyone know the scientific names for the following eggplants?

1. Makheua dor lae (มะเขือตอแหล)

2. Makheua jaan kao (มะเขือจานขาว)

3. Makheua suai* (มะเขือเสวย) *probably incorrect spelling

4. Makheua pro (มะเขือเปราะ)

5. Makheua yao (มะเขือยาว)

I'm trying to ascertain the English names.

Thanks for your help.

[jamles]

Google yielded these:

3. Makheua suai* (มะเขือเสวย) *probably incorrect spelling Solanum aculeatissimum

4. Makheua pro (มะเขือเปราะ) Solanum xanthocarpum

5. Makheua yao (มะเขือยาว) Solanum melongena

[AyG]

This link suggests #1 is Solanum aculeatissima Jacp.

http://pikul.lib.ku.ac.th/cgi-bin/agdb1.exe?rec_id=058832&database=agdb1&search_type=link&table=mona&back_path=/agdb1/mona〈=thai&format_name=TFMON

[Kanga Japan]

Dear Jamles and AyG,

Thank you both for your replies. I appreciate the time you have spent on this.

I am attaching a list which I have compiled of Thai eggplants. As you can see, some of the eggplants refer to the same scientific name and also have similar English names. I have spent days on this, trying to clarify it, but there is so much conflicting information on the web, that it is impossible. On top of that, many eggplants belong to the same species.

Solanum melonga is the general base term for all eggplants.

I am particularly wondering about what the Cockroach Berry eggplant refers to in Thai.

I have decided that it might be better for me not to include the scientific names of these in my dictionary, rather to risk an error or confusion. I will be including the romanized Thai, Thai script and English names.

If you could possibly have a look at the list and let me know if you see any obvious errors, I would appreciate it. Don't spend too much time on my behalf. I won't be using all of the attached list, only some - especially those marked OK. If you also think of any other common eggplants which I have missed, please advise me. No hurry for your reply.

Thank you again.

[AyG]

Dear Jamles and AyG,

Thank you both for your replies. I appreciate the time you have spent on this.

I am attaching a list which I have compiled of Thai eggplants. As you can see, some of the eggplants refer to the same scientific name and also have similar English names. I have spent days on this, trying to clarify it, but there is so much conflicting information on the web, that it is impossible. On top of that, many eggplants belong to the same species.

Solanum melonga is the general base term for all eggplants.

I am particularly wondering about what the Cockroach Berry eggplant refers to in Thai.

I have decided that it might be better for me not to include the scientific names of these in my dictionary, rather to risk an error or confusion. I will be including the romanized Thai, Thai script and English names.

If you could possibly have a look at the list and let me know if you see any obvious errors, I would appreciate it. Don't spend too much time on my behalf. I won't be using all of the attached list, only some - especially those marked OK. If you also think of any other common eggplants which I have missed, please advise me. No hurry for your reply.

Thank you again.

First, to point out the obvious, you forgot to attach the list to your posting.

Your assertion that "Solanum melonga" is the general base term for all eggplants isn't right. Solanum melonga specifically refers to the western-style (usually) purple eggplant (or "aubergine" as it's called in proper English). All true eggplants are members of the genus Solanum. However, the genus is enormous, covering not only eggplants, but potatoes, tomatoes and several rather poisonous plants.

The fact that there are different names for a single species isn't unusual. However, if you want uniquely to identify a species, by far the best way to do that is to use the scientific name. (OK, some species have changed name over the years, so you may want to include current and past scientific names.) Please don't drop the scientific names from your work, because if you do accurate identification of the species will become impossible.

One observation: you are trying to find names for a lot of obscure plants that are only rarely used in Thai cuisine. You might find your project easier if you first focus on the common plants and get that up an running, then later add more obscure ones.

As for "Cockroach Berry", it appears to be Solanum capsicoides (see, for example, http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/38381/#b ). However, I don't think I've ever seen this in Thailand. Searching Google for Thai language pages containing the scientific name didn't return anything useful. It's almost certainly irrelevant for your purposes.

[Kanga Japan]

Thanks AyG for your reply.

I thought I attached the list. I did press attach, but apparently it didn't go through. I will try again.

EGGPLANTS (no photos).xls

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

I just sent the attachment. I forgot to press 'attach this file' before.

From what I found on the web, I assumed (and I think some sites actually stated it) that Solanum melongena was the general term for all eggplants. I was aware that Solanum covered eggplants, potatoes and tomatoes. Thanks for the information.

As you suggest, I will add the scientific names to the eggplants I include in my dictionary. The only problem is it is a bit difficult to find them, even though I have been on this for a few days. If I could read Thai, it would be much quicker.

Regarding the 'cockroach berry' eggplants, I noticed that quite a few Thai cooking sites mentioned that they used them and I assumed that it was related to a Thai eggplant. Perhaps they are using that description incorrectly.

You are correct in pointing out that I have included many obscure eggplants in my list. Unfortunately, as I don't live in Thailand, I am not sure which ones are common. If it's not too much trouble, could you pick the main ones from my list, that you recommend adding? I will only include the ones you suggest.

Thank you for your help.

[AyG]

The commonest eggplants are:

- Solanum melongena (long eggplant used for yam makeua yaaw)

- Solanum torvum (pea eggplant used in green curries)

- Solanum xanthocarpum (crisp eggplant, also used in green curries)

Also common are what look like small Japanese eggplants. (Finger length, purple.)

There's also an egg-shaped eggplant, smaller than the crisp eggplant, mottled green and white skin.

I don't know the Thai names of these last two offhand. Perhaps you can identify them from the descriptions?

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thanks for your suggestions. You are always very helpful.

[chinnotes]

In the "New Model Thai-English Dictionary" Solanum melongena is called มะเขือขาว. Other species are mentioned (มะเขือเปราะ, มะเคือพวง,มะเขือขื่น) nut no scientific name is given.

In the book "Plant Materials in Thailand" the follwing names are given:

มะเขือต้น = Solanum wrightii (Brazilian Potatoe Tree)

มะเขือเปราะ = Solanum aculeatissimum (Jew Apple)

มะเขือพวง = Solanum torvum (Plate Brush)

In an official Thai-Thai dictionary I find: Solanum melongena comes in several varieties, e.g. มะเขือไข่าเต่า, มะเขือเจ้าพระยา, มะเขือละโว้, and มะเขือยาว. For the last one a scientific name is given: Solanum melongena var. serpentinum.

If we believe this dictionary, มะเขือเปราะ is synonym to มะเขือขื่น (fruit is said to be not edible, but a medicinำ is made from its roots)

มะเขือทวาย and มะเขือมอญ are inspite of their names no eggplants,but belong to Malvaceae, genus Abelmoschus.

Also มะเขือปากนก is not a Solanum, but Martynia annua

Another dictionary gicves more information, in some cases contradicting to the above:

S.aculeatissimum has several Thai names: มะเขือขื่น, มะเขืิเสวย, มะเขือเปราะ, มะเขือคางกบ, มะเขือแจ้, and มะเขือแจ้ดิน

S.seaforthianum is called มะเขือเครือ

S.mammosum is called มะเขือสาแหรก

S.wenlandii is called มะขือญี่ปุ่น

Moreover, in this dictionary it is (indirectly) said, that a Thai name in the South may not mean the same species in the north or Isaan...

Erwin

[AyG]

chinnotes' posting has reminded me of a 5th common eggplant - it's the small white one." He identifies it as a variety of Solanum melongena, which seems right based upon taste and texture.

Solanum aculeatissimum (again thanks to chinnotes) is almost certainly the species I described as "egg-shaped eggplant, smaller than the crisp eggplant, mottled green and white skin" based upon image searches.

I'm not 100% sure about the Japanese eggplant. Searches for มะเขือญี่ปุ่น return images that look like the (larger) Japanese Japanese eggplant. However, searching for images of Solanum wendlandii (I think there's a missing "n" in the name in the previous posting) only brings back pictures of flowers. I'm pretty sure that it's Solanum melongena.

In short, I now believe there are four key species used in food here: Solanum melongena, Solanum torvum, Solanum xanthocarpum, and Solanum aculeatissimum, with Solanum melongena appearing in a number of different varieties/cultivars (long eggplant, Japanese eggplant, the small white one).

Edited April 25, 2014 by AyG

[Kanga Japan]

Just returned to this subject and after many hours of research, I have a question:

MAKHUEA PRO (มะเขือเปราะ) and MAKHUA KHUEN (มะเขือขื่น) both seem to share some scientific names:

MAKHUEA KHUEN

Solanum xanthocarpum, Solanum aculeatissimum (Solanum virginianum? - poisonous)

MAKHUEA PRO

Solanum xanthocarpum, Solanum aculeatissimum, Chionathus parkinonii

Would the basic difference be in the colours of these eggplants?

MAKHUEA PRO - white-pale green with darker stripes

MAKHUEA KHUEN - commonly yellow

Do they taste the same? MAKHUEA KHUEN is often described as 'bitter yellow eggplant'.

Thank you for your help.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Kanga Japan

[AyG]

S. xanthocarpum is a synonym for S. virginianum (the "correct" name). Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow-fruit_nightshade http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Thorny%20Nightshade.html

The Wikipedia link says the fruit are poisonous. This source https://books.google.co.th/books?id=YC_lAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA3497&lpg=PA3497&dq=Solanum+virginianum+poisonous&source=bl&ots=cU-jweie0u&sig=Mz106HY8TYZJWYQwbwwOdl9-FAc&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Solanum%20virginianum%20poisonous&f=false says they are an emetic. It is also listed on the FDA's Poisonous Plants database at http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/plantox/detail.cfm?id=24350 (bottom of page). It's also listed as poisonous at http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/new/Sorting/CATALOGUE/Pt4-Nightshades.html#9

In other words, though some people call this "Thai eggplant", it is a purely decorative species and is not put into curries, though is used here medicinally. (Lost the link for that. Think the reference was to use in the north.)

MAKHUEA PRO and MAKHUEA KHUEN are both S. aculeatissimum Jacq. This site lists them as synonyms. http://www.qsbg.org/Database/plantdb/mdp/medicinal-specimen.asp?id=433 It also gives a number of other synonyms.

Another site gives synonyms as มะเขือขื่น, มะเขือแจ้, สะกอฮอ (Karen tribespeople in the Mae Hong Son area). http://eherb.hrdi.or.th/search_result_details.php?herbariumID=792&name=Cockroach%20berry

Finally, another site gives synonyms as มะเขือขื่น, มะเขือเหลือง, มะเขือขันขำ, มะเขือคางกบ, มะเขือคำ, มะเขือแจ้ (Northern Thailand), มะเขือเปราะ, มะเขือเสวย, มะเขือแจ้ดิน (Chiang Mai), มังคิเก่ (Mae Hong Son), เขือหิน (Southern Thailand), เขือเพา (Nakorn Sri Thammarat). http://www.phargarden.com/main.php?action=viewpage&pid=259

The pictures in the last link reveal that the pale green, striped fruit is the immature version of the yellow one. This comes as news to me, but does explain the very crisp texture of the green fruit. Interesting how Thai cuisine uses unripe fruit such as these aubergines, green mango, green papaya - something we don't really do in the occident.

In summary: S. xanthocarpum has fruit which look like Thai eggplants, but aren't edible. The two kinds of aubergine are really one species. S. aculeatissimum Jacq., with fruit which start green and turn yellow.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you so much for that. You must have spent an incredible amount of time researching that!

I will look at your reply in detail tonight and get back to you.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

I have gone through all the information you sent me. Thanks to all your research we now know that MAKHUEA KHUEN and MAKHUEA PRO are both the same species, just at different stages of development.

When I was researching these again yesterday, some sites also indicated that Solanum xanthocarpum, Solanum aculeatissimum and Solanum virginianum were all synonyms for the same species. Chionathus parkinonii was also indicated as being the scientific name for MAKHUEA PRO. There is so much conflicting information on the net and, as these are all so closely related, it results in more confusion.

I will indicate MAKHUEA KHUEN and MAKHUEA PRO as Solanum aculeatissimum and have 2 separate photos. The pale green striped one for MK and a yellow one for MP (and for MAKHUEA LUEANG มะเขือเหลือง, which I think is just a general description). I will also check and see if I have some of the other local Thai names and add some of them.

Again, thank you so much for your help. I am so glad to finally have this sorted out and confirmed.

[Pla shado]

I asked Mrs. Pla shado about both MAKHUEA KHUEN and MAKHUEA PRO being Solanum aculeatissimum but at different stages of maturity. Her response was that MAKHUEA PRO (perhaps Chionathus parkinonii), when young, is sweet and crunchy and good to eat. She says that most people don't eat MAKHUEA KHUEN (Solanum aculeatissimum) either young or old because they are bitter and full of seeds. She acknowledges that young MAKHUEA KHUEN resemble the light green mottled/striped MAKHUEA PRO (Chionathus parkinonii) but says that you have to look at the plant itself to see that MAKHUEA KHUEN (Solanum aculeatissimum) has sharp needle-like spines on the branches and leaves whereas the MAKHUEA PRO (the one most people eat) has smooth branches and leaves and perhaps an occasional, much softer small spike here or there. Mostly, the plant has no sharp spines and the connection of stem to fruit is smooth and without any spikes.

She says the MAKHUEA PRO that Thais normally eat do not grow on the same plant as MUKHUEA KHUEN and Thai people would know the difference by just looking at the plant. I did a Google image search and could see what she is talking about.

Neither Mrs. Pla shado nor I have any scientific knowledge on this subject and I'm passing these comments along only as an observation.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear Pla shado,

Thank you very much for that information.

I will see what I can do to check up on this, but I have a feeling that even though MAKHUEA KHUEN and MAKHUEA PRO seem to have the same scientific name, they may be separate variants of that species.

[AyG]

I have a feeling that even though MAKHUEA KHUEN and MAKHUEA PRO seem to have the same scientific name, they may be separate variants of that species.

There are undoubtedly going to be different cultivars, perhaps some more suited to eating immature, others eating fully ripe. This may account for Mrs. Pla Shado's observations. I'm not sure. However, as the following link shows, (a) the two terms are treated as synonyms and ( refer to both the green and yellow versions. If you look at the fruit in the basket, you can see one that is clearly half way between being fully green and becoming yellow.

http://www.bansuanporpeang.com/node/17595

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you for your comments. As you say, there will always be some variations within species and I think we should accept them as they are, with the same scientific name. Many vegetables come in an array of sizes, shapes and colours, despite having one common scientific name.

Thank you for your work on this. Sincerely appreciated.

[Kanga Japan]

Just a short note to let you know that after further research today, I have decided to add Solanum xanthocarpum to the scientific name of MAKHUEA KHUEN (as well as Solanum aculeatissimum).

In an effort to compromise and taking into account all the information to date, all the sites I have looked at, the research of AyG and Pla shado's comments, I feel that I should do this.

If any absolutely conclusive evidence to identify these two vegetables comes to hand (I don't think it will), I will revise it accordingly.

Thank you for your help.

[norfolkandchance]

Jeepers. Good Topic. In Italy we have too kinds. Big purple ones and small purple ones.

[AyG]

Just a short note to let you know that after further research today, I have decided to add Solanum xanthocarpum to the scientific name of MAKHUEA KHUEN (as well as Solanum aculeatissimum).

I think you may be missing the point that S. xanthocarpum is poisonous and is not eaten. As I posted before:

S. xanthocarpum is a synonym for S. virginianum (the "correct" name). Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow-fruit_nightshade http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Thorny%20Nightshade.html

The Wikipedia link says the fruit are poisonous. This source https://books.google.co.th/books?id=YC_lAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA3497&lpg=PA3497&dq=Solanum+virginianum+poisonous&source=bl&ots=cU-jweie0u&sig=Mz106HY8TYZJWYQwbwwOdl9-FAc&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Solanum%20virginianum%20poisonous&f=false says they are an emetic. It is also listed on the FDA's Poisonous Plants database at http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/plantox/detail.cfm?id=24350 (bottom of page). It's also listed as poisonous at http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/new/Sorting/CATALOGUE/Pt4-Nightshades.html#9

In other words, though some people call this "Thai eggplant", it is a purely decorative species and is not put into curries

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you for your mail. OK. I understand. I will remove the Solanum xanthocarpum description.

It came up quite a few times as being used in cooking, so I decided to add it. I must assume that those sites were using the incorrect scientific word. As shown in the links you added, it is poisonous.

Thanks for your help.