Making a valid Thai will

[connda]

Where is the least expensive place to make a valid Thai will here in Chiang Mai.

[Jip99]

First, ask yourself if you need one.

Your own wishes and Thai asset nase will determine whether the need for a Will exists - there are alternatives.

[connda]

First, ask yourself if you need one.

Your own wishes and Thai asset nase will determine whether the need for a Will exists - there are alternatives.

No, I don't need a will, I just need to assign my wife as the beneficiary of my bank accounts here in Thailand. These cannot be joint accounts. However, the manager at my bank said that the only way the bank would accept my Thai wife as my beneficiary was if I had a court approved Thai will. Actually, I just wrote this in the Ask the Lawyer section.

I'm open to suggestions, but in the meantime, I'm looking for the least expensive place to get a will written.

[NancyL]

If your only assets are the bank accounts, then you can do a "fill in the blanks Will" at the local amphur office.

[sly4all]

I am also interested by writing down a will in Chiang Mai. I have been told that I would need first a medical certificate for me and my wife stating that we are sane to validate the will. Is this true ?

Otherwise if a simple will can be completely done at the local amphur, all the better. Thanks,

[BB1955]

Have not heard anything about a medical certificate . We went to our local office here in Hang Dong they don't do them . Asked a lawyer and they wanted $7000 baht each . Found these forms on another post and will use them ....

[Jip99]

When you die your wife wull walk down to the bank with the death certificate and marriage certificate and say "husband has died, no Will".

Depending on the amounts involved (only the balances you keep for visa extensions need to be in sole account) the bank will either pay out - good if she has account at the same branch - or they will say that you need to go to the court and obtain 'probate'.

The same process applies if you have a Will.

Some say that the amphur Will negates the need for probate but I have not seen this happen in practice.

[Tywais]

A couple of articles outlining the will and requirements/probate.

http://www.sgalegal.com/guide/lastwill.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/618983-the-importance-of-preparing-a-will-in-thailand/

Under Thai probate law, how is property transferred at death?

Normally, a probate order must be obtained from the Thailand Probate Court. Property is transferred either by will or through intestate succession, according to law. For both approaches, the court must approve the legalities of the inheritance and issue official orders appointing an executor or administrator to handle the affairs of the estate.

What does "Probate of an Estate" mean?

Probate is the court supervised administration of your assets after your death. Your "Probate Estate" comprises all the property you owned at death, which does not pass by trust or operation of law.

Why is probate administration necessary?

Since the deceased are not here to speak for themselves, the law seeks to protect both the wishes of the deceased and genuine heirs according to law. The Probate Court will require evidence before allowing the distribution of assets and protection of a deceased person’s property. Probate proceedings are conducted under strict court supervision to safeguard both the beneficiaries and the creditors of the estate.

[elgordo38]

I just asked Siam legal this question. Can I make up a hand written simple will in English and have 2 people witness it and is it legal. They said yes it was but my g/f could not be one of the witnesses. I imagine if it comes to probate you would have to submit a Thai translation and that can be done at your local YMCA very reasonably.

[prakhonchai nick]

A simple DIY will is fine, but as stated above the witnesses (2 needed) cannot be beneficiaries.

For those who do not wish to do it themselves, a simple will can be drawn up from 2000Baht.

[scooterboy]

A simple DIY will is fine, but as stated above the witnesses (2 needed) cannot be beneficiaries.

For those who do not wish to do it themselves, a simple will can be drawn up from 2000Baht.

From 2000 Baht. Where, exactly, would that be?

thanks

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Will the Amphur will also work for a Thai partner to leave assents to a foreigner?

[NancyL]

Yes, the amphur Will will definitely work for the Thai partner to leave assets to the foreigner. Or for a foreigner to leave assets to a foreigner. Hubby and I left our bank accounts to each other. At Amphur Muang they did want a statement from a psychiatrist that we're of sound mind, but that was a few years ago and the procedure may have changed. The people at the amphur walked us thru the process, but they didn't speak English and thus don't handle many foreigner-foreigner Wills.

[elektrified]

Have not heard anything about a medical certificate . We went to our local office here in Hang Dong they don't do them . Asked a lawyer and they wanted $7000 baht each . Found these forms on another post and will use them ....

BB1955, that Will is missing some very important clauses found in every standard Last Will and Testament used around the world. It would never stand up in court as it has more holes than Swiss cheese. About 2 years ago I posted a very complete Will in Thai and English. I'm on a mobile device and searching is difficult, but do a search in the General topics forum I think and there is a very long and comprehensive thread.

[eyecatcher]

I thought a will could be done on the back of an envelope as long as two witnesses sign it, regardless of the number of legal holes in it......well especially if its very simple

"I bequeath all my assets in thailand to my wife"

it doesn't need clause after clause does it?

As for someone with bank accounts if the pin number of the atm card can be left in an envelope to be opened on death then the wife can withdraw as and when.

If like me you have the biggest chunk in an account without atm pin card...for security....then I just wonder if the bank will accept a written statement requesting money to be transferred to another on death, or is this where the amphur office does its bit?

[Jip99]

I thought a will could be done on the back of an envelope as long as two witnesses sign it, regardless of the number of legal holes in it......well especially if its very simple

"I bequeath all my assets in thailand to my wife"

it doesn't need clause after clause does it?

As for someone with bank accounts if the pin number of the atm card can be left in an envelope to be opened on death then the wife can withdraw as and when.

If like me you have the biggest chunk in an account without atm pin card...for security....then I just wonder if the bank will accept a written statement requesting money to be transferred to another on death, or is this where the amphur office does its bit?

Unfortunately, your lack of knowledge could leave your loved ones with a headache.

I am all for simplicity and would also use the online banking or ATM codes method. However, this is illegal and would be problematical if the card was ever retained by an ATM machine.

All mandates are cancelled on death so a 'written statement' would have no effect. Think about what you have said - a written statement is no more than a Will. Try the back of an evelope, back of a fag packet or write it on an egg - this thread is about making a "valid:" Thai and there are a couple of criteria that need to be met to achieve that.

[uptheos]

Yes, the amphur Will will definitely work for the Thai partner to leave assets to the foreigner. Or for a foreigner to leave assets to a foreigner. Hubby and I left our bank accounts to each other. At Amphur Muang they did want a statement from a psychiatrist that we're of sound mind, but that was a few years ago and the procedure may have changed. The people at the amphur walked us thru the process, but they didn't speak English and thus don't handle many foreigner-foreigner Wills.

I went to Dr. Tawachai on Loi Kroh. Known him for years, he just said "the fact that you know what you want and you knew where to come to get it, makes you sane". Think it was 150 Baht at the time.

Your mileage might differ.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

"the fact that you know what you want and you knew where to come to get it, makes you sane"

I find that strangely reassuring, and somewhat uplifting.

[uptheos]

"the fact that you know what you want and you knew where to come to get it, makes you sane"

I find that strangely reassuring, and somewhat uplifting.

Yup, keep it simple.

[circusman]

A simple DIY will is fine, but as stated above the witnesses (2 needed) cannot be beneficiaries.

For those who do not wish to do it themselves, a simple will can be drawn up from 2000Baht.

Can you say where at that price ? PM me maybe. Thanks

[connda]

A simple DIY will is fine, but as stated above the witnesses (2 needed) cannot be beneficiaries.

For those who do not wish to do it themselves, a simple will can be drawn up from 2000Baht.

Can you say where at that price ? PM me maybe. Thanks

I'm interested too.

[NancyL]

Have not heard anything about a medical certificate . We went to our local office here in Hang Dong they don't do them . Asked a lawyer and they wanted $7000 baht each . Found these forms on another post and will use them ....

BB1955, that Will is missing some very important clauses found in every standard Last Will and Testament used around the world. It would never stand up in court as it has more holes than Swiss cheese. About 2 years ago I posted a very complete Will in Thai and English. I'm on a mobile device and searching is difficult, but do a search in the General topics forum I think and there is a very long and comprehensive thread.

Perhaps the Will would never stand up in court if it were challenged. But, if it unlikely that the Will will be challenged, then an Amphur will is sufficient, especially in a situation where a long-married husband-wife without children are claiming each other's bank accounts. Come on -- who is going to challenge the amphur will in this situation. Surely not the bank manager? In this case, the bank manager just needs a document to release the account and cover his rump with the corporate HQ in Bangkok.

Yes, certainly you need something much more complex than an Amphur Will for if you have assets beyond bank accounts and/or if your life has been complex with multiple marriages, children, siblings, etc.

[Jip99]

Have not heard anything about a medical certificate . We went to our local office here in Hang Dong they don't do them . Asked a lawyer and they wanted $7000 baht each . Found these forms on another post and will use them ....

BB1955, that Will is missing some very important clauses found in every standard Last Will and Testament used around the world. It would never stand up in court as it has more holes than Swiss cheese. About 2 years ago I posted a very complete Will in Thai and English. I'm on a mobile device and searching is difficult, but do a search in the General topics forum I think and there is a very long and comprehensive thread.

Perhaps the Will would never stand up in court if it were challenged. But, if it unlikely that the Will will be challenged, then an Amphur will is sufficient, especially in a situation where a long-married husband-wife without children are claiming each other's bank accounts. Come on -- who is going to challenge the amphur will in this situation. Surely not the bank manager? In this case, the bank manager just needs a document to release the account and cover his rump with the corporate HQ in Bangkok.

Yes, certainly you need something much more complex than an Amphur Will for if you have assets beyond bank accounts and/or if your life has been complex with multiple marriages, children, siblings, etc.

NancyL, I think your answer is incomplete.

I agree that no bank will challenge ANY Will that bequeathes a bank account to a spouse. That said, it depends on the balances involved and they could well require probate - that makes the Will effectively pointless as a wife could achieve the same under intestacy rules.

[Mapguy]

This is not so daunting as it might appear, but it depends upon the circumstances.

Here are some good places to begin to understand the situation for Thailand:

Becker and Thongkaew, Thai Law for Foreigners, Paiboon press, 2008

The Thailand Civil & Commercial Code. Here is one translation: http://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-civil-code-part-1.html

If you have assets outside Thailand, it is usually appropriate to have two wills, one for each jurisdiction. They must be consistent, of course. You should have two lawyers, one for each jurisdiction, if things are at all complicated.

[JimGant]

This subject is, understandably, well-discussed on this forum. Many threads, all addressing (but not necessarily answering) all the questions seen on this thread. Two primary threads (the first is "pinned") that I can dredge up are as follow:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/618983-the-importance-of-preparing-a-will-in-thailand/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/599413-amphur-will/page-4#entry6693191

The problem with getting definitive answers is that, there's a lack of dead testators, so what happens after a testator's death is unanswered.

One key area of discussion is Amphur Wills. In the new section of this forum, Ask a Lawyer, I recently asked, and got the answer:

Q: Is a Will that is prepared at the Amphur and subsequently stored there (or presented 'sealed' to the Amphur for storage there) self probating? In other words, if my wife dies, and I as executor and sole beneficiary retrieves her Will from the Amphur, does this Will still have to be probated in a Thai court? If the answer is "yes," what's the point of involving the Amphur in the first place?

A: The wills that are prepared at the Amphur are not stored at the Amphur for self probate, you will still be required to go to court regarding probate of the will. The point of having a will done at the Amphur is for the cheap price, but everything will be in Thai with no translation.

Hmmmm. Still required to go to court? In another Will thread awhile back, some legal expert commented that all Wills don't need to be probated, particularly simple Wills. I guess it all depends on what the Land Dept or bank manager will accept.. Presumably, a 'sealed' Will at the Amphur, will upon the testator's death, be unsealed when the executor presents the death certificate -- then stamped with official Amphur stamps, giving it authenticity (dunno if this actually happens). I would think most (some?) bank managers would accept this as samo samo court authentication (probate?) But, maybe not. In this situation, however, the Court would certainly accept as valid such a Will (as verified by the Amphur) in comparison with, say, a Will whose only verification are two witness signatures, one of which belongs to your gardener who went back to Burma.

So, is going the Amphur route a waste? If you have to go to probate court anyway (dunno), wouldn't hiring a lawyer ahead of time, to provide witnesses to your Will, suitably videotaped, make sense -- particularly if you're going to have to find a lawyer in the future to hold your hand through probate? I probably could be persuaded of that -- for a reasonable price.

Another question I asked the lawyers:

Q: My Thai wife and I have a joint savings account with Bangkok Bank. Should one of us die, does the survivor, under Thai law, still have full access to that joint account? Or will it be sealed, pending probate of the estate?

A: The bank account will not close, but you will still have to follow the rules put in place when it was opened. For example if you both have to sign for release of funds then you will not be able to withdraw from that account. If this is the case then you will need to settle it along with the estate.

Ok, good answer. However, we've seen on these Will threads that some bank managers have said, 'No, we'll freeze joint accounts pending probate, even if setup with single signature.' Thus, probably best to have the beneficiary of both your joint and single accounts transfer the money over to her single account before you're cold -- online banking being the best way. Criminality? Naaa. She's the sole beneficiary, in an uncontested scenario -- so nobody harmed. Can't imagine a bank manager saying 'put it back,' let alone if he even knows you're dead. But, if there's going to be a 'discussion' about this, requiring subsequent probate, best to be from the position of possession.

I thought a will could be done on the back of an envelope as long as two witnesses sign it, regardless of the number of legal holes in it......well especially if its very simple "I bequeath all my assets in thailand to my wife." It doesn't need clause after clause does it?

Best to be as detailed as possible. "I leave all my assets to my husband, Jim Gant, including...... 1,2,3,4,......

List all her assets, at least those with associated numbers (bank accounts, automobiles, chanotes, etc.) Why? Because "I leave all" might not be sufficiently definitive for bank managers or land office folks. Doesn't hurt to be specific. If a bank account drops out later -- no big deal. If you add a bank account later -- prepare a handwritten codicile to attach, if you have the time.

Speaking of handwritten -- holographic Wills are acceptable in Thailand, and don't have to be witnessed. But, best that you do -- the more witnesses the better (minimum of two, however, same as for prepared Will). Never heard of a court asking for a handwriting expert to verify a holographic Will -- but who knows in Thailand....

And, if you haven't yet prepared a Will, pondering the right avenue to approach this -- why not sit down right now and write out your Will in longhand. Get a few witnesses when you have the time. Thus, if you die while pondering, you have not legally died intestate. And that's a good thing.

Meanwhile -- only in the interest of having several of these questions answered, of course -- may we finally start accumulating dead testators.

[elektrified]

I don't see how anyone at a bank, brokerage firm, land office, etc. would accept a Will and dispose of/transfer assets to someone else unless the Will has been probated and there is an order of final distribution signed by the court. There is just to much liability. What if a Thai child or even a spouse or relative in another country shows up and wants to contest the Will? It could take a month or two for estranged relatives to learn of the death.

I've seen this in a number of European countries and in the USA. I don't see how it would be different here. There would have to be some due diligence, not just a handover of assets.

Furthermore what if an old geezer suddenly left a lot of assets to a lady of the night or a girl much younger? I would think the court would want to know if there was any undue influence or if the Will was made under duress.

[NancyL]

Very thoughtful post, Jim.

I should have mentioned that when Hubby and I did the Amphur Wills, they were sealed and on file at the Amphur. We were given copies. The bank manager said that at the time of death, the survivor presents the copy to the then-current bank manager, who will contact the amphur office and verify that it is indeed the same as the sealed original on file. Of course all that could change at the time of death. The story told to us is that there will be no need for probate and the survivor will be able to claim the funds instantly. The big concern is my 800,000 baht visa account. So, stay tuned for a report from Hubby when the time comes.

From my own limited experience in helping a foreign widow -- she was not able to gain access to a large joint account at a SCB -- it was frozen upon her husband's death. Her dead husband didn't have a Will, in Thailand or anywhere else. The bank manager told her that she had to probate the estate to "prove" the husband didn't have any children because wives and children inherit at the same level in Thailand. In other words, any children would have been entitled to a share in that joint account. Personally, I think there was an element of that bank manager just not wanting to let that large bank account leave her bank.

[connda]

Having started the thread, all I wanted was to transfer the money supporting my Thai Visa that is in a bank in my name only, to my wife on the event of my death with the least hassle possible and at the least cost to me. For that purpose the Amphur Will would be just fine.

However, I want to assign assets to my step son if both my wife and I die at the same time, so shelling out 5000 baht to a lawyer to draw the Will up might be expedient. In my case, I'm probably going to contact my own attorney and just have him do it.

[elektrified]

From my own limited experience in helping a foreign widow -- she was not able to gain access to a large joint account at a SCB -- it was frozen upon her husband's death. Her dead husband didn't have a Will, in Thailand or anywhere else. The bank manager told her that she had to probate the estate to "prove" the husband didn't have any children because wives and children inherit at the same level in Thailand. In other words, any children would have been entitled to a share in that joint account. Personally, I think there was an element of that bank manager just not wanting to let that large bank account leave her bank.

I disagree with you NancyL (and I tend to agree with you 95%+ of the time). The bank manager did the right thing and followed the law. The husband may have had a Thai "love child" that the spouse was unaware of. Just saying....as an example. Had that been the case, and the manager disposed of the asset, then the bank would become liable to the child for his/her percentage of the estate/asset, as no doubt the foreign spouse would be long gone and there would be no way for the child to sue her. Nor should the child be put in a position to have to any way as the bank would have been at fault . No doubt the manager would then be fired and lose her job.

[JimGant]

Thanks for the example, Nancy. Hopefully we won't get your Hubby's experience anytime soon.......