Thais refused entry to Germany because of scam, says Thai embassy

[AjarnMartin]

"A Thai who wants to visit 10 Schengen countries in seven days"

only 10 different countries in one week

plenty of tripoints in europe so doable and exactly the kind of travels Thais love:

rushing from place a to b, take some pictures, eat thai food and head on to next "adventures".

average hours of sleep per night 6. average meals per day 6. average pictures taken per day 60. average km per day/night 600.

Yes sure UK & France in one day. And then Germany and Italy the next day

Sorry, but the Schengen Visa does NOT cover the UK. A separate UK Visitor Visa is necessary.

[JohnThailandJohn]

As is par for the course on TVF, most posters jump in with both feet with absolutely no idea of what's happening in this particular case and why.

1. A group of Thais (rich, affluent as one would have to be to be able to afford a holiday to Europe)

2. Being Thais, they require a Schengen visa

3. It's Songkran period, the peak season of outbound travel from Thailand to Europe and elsewhere

4. Quota at the German Embassy in Bangkok is full, thus no chance to obtain visa from them

5. Their Thai travel agent tries to workaround by applying for the visa at the Belgian Embassy (this is common practice among Thai travel agencies)

6. Visa approved, they depart for their holiday. First point of entry, Italy, most likely Rome

7. They continue their journey to Florence, Venice, Milan, Switzerland (Lucerne or Interlaken) before finally crossing over into Germany.

8. In Germany, they continue making their way up north, maybe including a cruise on the River Rhine

9. They spend their last night in Germany in Frankfurt or Cologne before departing to the airport for their flight BACK to Thailand, where they have their businesses, jobs, families, giks, coyote girls, M Benzs, BMW's etc etc

10. Their TG flight (presumably TG923 ETD 21:20) had a technical problem and presumably would only be able to depart the following day

11. They decided to then stay one more night in Frankfurt rather than roughing it out at the airport (they are after all rich people by Thai standards)

12. However, as the Schengen visa is issued according to original flight schedules, that means their visa has technically expired

Technically speaking, yes, it's a scam in that they obtained the visa from an embassy that they had no intention of visiting. However, this is the result of immigration laws, lazy and inept European consulars enjoying their lives in Thailand and a highly racist attitude towards the Thais and not because these people are trying to enter Europe illegally and work as kitchen helpers, dish washers or prostitutes.

For a person kvetching about people jumping in without knowing the particulars, you sure make a lot of assumptions.

You keep practicing your English, though. Work on word order/choice and fine tune your punctuation, for free of course on TV, because in your heart of hearts, it would go against your religion/DNA to not scam someone.

So you think the scam goes all the way to the airline having mechanical issue and these Thais who wanted to overstay their visa went to the airport aware of the planed malfunction rather than just not going to the airport at all?

I was on a plane headed out of Bangkok once that got cancelled due to malfunctions and immigration simply gave people a special stamp whose entry expired. I didn't need one but had to go back through the same special line they set up for us and everyone was worried whose entry was up. Completely idiotic this was not done for the Thais as they would not have been on the plane/in the airport heading back to BKK to begin with if they had an intent to overstay.

[davejones23]

I don't see how this is a scam because all Schengen countries should have the same rules. Obviously they don't, and that is teh fau;t of the Schengen countries. If the Schengen countries followed their own rules, then this couldn't happen. If you apply for a Schengen visa, it shouldn't matter what country you apply to or which countries you visit. You're applying foe a block visa. All blame for this lies with the shambles that is the EU and Schengen. All following different lawas and rules even though they're not supposed to. But no-one doing anything about it.

So the Thai tour companies are applying for Schengen visas and visiting Schengen countries. WOW, what a scam. NOT. How on earth can it be a scam to visit the area you applied for a visa for? All the Thai tour companies are doing is showing what a shambles Schengen is, and some countries (e.g. German) don't like people pointing out what a shambles it is.

Sounds like Belgium may be issues visas when it shouldn't be. Solution - sort them out instead of blaming others. There isn't anything in the rules saying you can't cancel a booking or change it. This is not a scam at all.

Edited May 2, 2014 by davejones23

[Thai at Heart]

I don't see how this is a scam because all Schengen countries should have the same rules. Obviously they don't, and that is teh fau;t of the Schengen countries. If the Schengen countries followed their own rules, then this couldn't happen. If you apply for a Schengen visa, it shouldn't matter what country you apply to or which countries you visit. You're applying foe a block visa. All blame for this lies with the shambles that is the EU and Schengen. All following different lawas and rules even though they're not supposed to. But no-one doing anything about it.

So the Thai tour companies are applying for Schengen visas and visiting Schengen countries. WOW, what a scam. NOT. How on earth can it be a scam to visit the area you applied for a visa for? All the Thai tour companies are doing is showing what a shambles Schengen is, and some countries (e.g. German) don't like people pointing out what a shambles it is.

Sounds like Belgium may be issues visas when it shouldn't be. Solution - sort them out instead of blaming others. There isn't anything in the rules saying you can't cancel a booking or change it. This is not a scam at all.

How can you reenter a country when your visa has expired? Shame there was no airside hotel.

Sorry, but, I've been hoofed out of the thai lounge in SVB when transiting onto a 6am flight having arrived at midnight.

Their agents stiffed them, and didn't get a few days grace for the visas and even applied for them incorrectly. Rules are there. Otherwise, the Greeks could just cut the price and remove all the visa revenue from the other embassies by issuing general entry visas for people.

[Donutz]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

YES.

and holy Germans, =More Papal than the Pope!= did the Thais make something wrong than? The sat in plane back to Thailand, no?

Its just so, it seems, that its more easy to get a Schengen Visa from the Belgium Embassy than from the German or the Swiss Embassy for a holiday!

The Belgians are in the top 3 Schengen countries that declines visa applications so no, they aren't "easy". Ofcourse that can be accounted to various factors such as simply many more fraudelent or ill prepared applicants applying with the Belgians... Or they are a bit more strict then others Schengen countries as member states can set some nation specific requirements etc. Though they may never ever visit the Schengen Code on Visa, which dictates the rights and obligations of applicants.

See: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/715691-eu-commission-wants-more-flexible-schengen-rules/?p=7638636

Schengen Visas i know of 2 girls refused a visa...one to belgium one to norway.. the belgium one refused 3 times..she is even maries with a child..so these visa are not easy to get...so some one pulled strings to get there visa

If you meet the requirements you should generally get the visa, the most important two requirements being 1) showing a clear and genuine travel purpose (if they question it, they will deny it) and 2) show that you have reasons to return and chanches of illegal settlement or small. Some embassies may be a bit too eagier to decline a visa for this reason but since it is never more then a suspicion a well prepared applicant should have a good chanche of obtaining a visa, if need be after an appeal: if the applicant has several items to show they will return such as a return ticket, family ties or property (a house etc.), a job, or a written explination by the traveler and foreign host that they will return on time, then there you stand a good chanche of getting the visa. The applicant showed mulitple points that show reasons for return, the embassy has none except a vague "you may not return" suspicion without any or little evidence at all. Though they may throw previous rejections at you or a past overstay. So an applicant should always appeal, it's free so why not?

Schengen Visas i know of 2 girls refused a visa...one to belgium one to norway.. the belgium one refused 3 times..she is even maries with a child..so these visa are not easy to get...so some one pulled strings to get there visa

You can't conclude that without knowing all the circumstances.

A Schengen visa is good for all countries signed up to the Schengen visa. If they start making additional rules for people then it becomes just another example of a EU bureaucratic farce.

A long time ago I applied for a Schengen visa for my wife via the Netherland's Embassy (very friendly, efficient and helpful) as my office was in Maastricht. But it was cheaper and easier to fly to Germany and pick up a hire car than Schipol. No problem at all. In fact the German Border Police were also very friendly and efficient, going in and out. Driving and rail have no checks between these countries. My wife was amazed that one day we drove in Netherlands, Belgium. Germany and Luxembourg without any border or customs checks - that's the whole point of Schengen.

Yep. You can enter, travel and exit through any Schengen member state but one of the rules of the visa is that you must apply at the country that is your main travel goal (spent the most time) or of there is no clear primairy country then you apply at the country of first entry. So if you book a holiday for 4 days in Germany, 4 in France, 4 in Italy and 4 in Switerserland you should apply in Germany if you go there first. You cannot apply with the Belgium embassy. Which this agency seems to have done for some odd reason... If they thought the Belgians were the most easy, they were wrong (see visa issue statistics on the EU webpage / above tabel).

[Donutz]

As is par for the course on TVF, most posters jump in with both feet with absolutely no idea of what's happening in this particular case and why.

1. A group of Thais (rich, affluent as one would have to be to be able to afford a holiday to Europe)

2. Being Thais, they require a Schengen visa

3. It's Songkran period, the peak season of outbound travel from Thailand to Europe and elsewhere

4. Quota at the German Embassy in Bangkok is full, thus no chance to obtain visa from them

5. Their Thai travel agent tries to workaround by applying for the visa at the Belgian Embassy (this is common practice among Thai travel agencies)

6. Visa approved, they depart for their holiday. First point of entry, Italy, most likely Rome

7. They continue their journey to Florence, Venice, Milan, Switzerland (Lucerne or Interlaken) before finally crossing over into Germany.

8. In Germany, they continue making their way up north, maybe including a cruise on the River Rhine

9. They spend their last night in Germany in Frankfurt or Cologne before departing to the airport for their flight BACK to Thailand, where they have their businesses, jobs, families, giks, coyote girls, M Benzs, BMW's etc etc

10. Their TG flight (presumably TG923 ETD 21:20) had a technical problem and presumably would only be able to depart the following day

11. They decided to then stay one more night in Frankfurt rather than roughing it out at the airport (they are after all rich people by Thai standards)

12. However, as the Schengen visa is issued according to original flight schedules, that means their visa has technically expired

Technically speaking, yes, it's a scam in that they obtained the visa from an embassy that they had no intention of visiting. However, this is the result of immigration laws, lazy and inept European consulars enjoying their lives in Thailand and a highly racist attitude towards the Thais and not because these people are trying to enter Europe illegally and work as kitchen helpers, dish washers or prostitutes.

-4- The embassy can't be "full" since the Schengen Visa Code states that the embassy must accept all applications and decide on the application within 15 days, in individual cases to be extended to 30 days and in exceptional cases to 60 days. If there is a need for an appointment one should be granted within 2 weeks of the request. And at all times can an applicant lodge an application directly with the embassy so there is no need to go to an external service provider such as VFS or TLS. Those are entirely optional and the embassy is obligated to inform people clearly about this. A visa shouldn't cost you more then the official fee (default: 60 euro's, for some less or it's waived) unless somebody choses themselves to use a service provider.

10-12: if they stuck to the orginal schedule and would leave Germany (or any other Schengen country) on the last day of the visa but were unable to do so due to technical problems with the aircraft there shouldn't be much of an issue. Technically the visa would have expired the following day but there isn't much to worry about. They don't issue a temporary ban unless you overstay by more then 3 days, and for those countries that do fine for overstay (Germany is one, oddly there aren't Schenge wide agreements on such a penalty or how high a fine should be...) I would expect them to be lenient and waive any fine for a a 1 day overstay due to problems with the aircraft.

If the travel agent is gaming the system by embassy shopping and presenting false itineraries, they have to be rather dumb not to add on a day to the itinerary in case of a flight delay on the way home. The Schengen embassies usually issue the visas for the exact dates on the itineraries.

Obviously the 60 Thais had visas expiring on the day of the return flight. I am not at all convinced that German immigration would have let them in for an extra day whatever the case. I think this story of a scam is a red herring to pass the blame on to the travel agent instead of inflexible Schengen immigration policies. The US and the UK would do exactly the same thing, if visas were expired, but their embassies usually issue longer term tourist visas as standard, e.g. 10 years (US), 6 months (UK).

The problem is really the Schengen policy of issuing visas for the exact dates of the itinerary. I am sure this is group is not the first to be stranded like this.

They generally do issue the amount of days requested but they may round this up or issue less if they think it's reasonable to do so. Some people apply for 90 days but get only 30 (others get an outright declination if they believe 90 days is not a legit request) , some round the number of days up: request 15 days but get 20 days... And as always the date the visa starts and ends is longer then the amount of days issued. A visa may be issued for 20 days but issued to be issued between april 1st and april 30th.

I don't see how this is a scam because all Schengen countries should have the same rules. Obviously they don't, and that is teh fau;t of the Schengen countries. If the Schengen countries followed their own rules, then this couldn't happen. If you apply for a Schengen visa, it shouldn't matter what country you apply to or which countries you visit. You're applying foe a block visa. All blame for this lies with the shambles that is the EU and Schengen. All following different lawas and rules even though they're not supposed to. But no-one doing anything about it.

So the Thai tour companies are applying for Schengen visas and visiting Schengen countries. WOW, what a scam. NOT. How on earth can it be a scam to visit the area you applied for a visa for? All the Thai tour companies are doing is showing what a shambles Schengen is, and some countries (e.g. German) don't like people pointing out what a shambles it is.

Sounds like Belgium may be issues visas when it shouldn't be. Solution - sort them out instead of blaming others. There isn't anything in the rules saying you can't cancel a booking or change it. This is not a scam at all.

See above, they rules are roughly the same but there is some margen for the embassies to set specific requirements or be more lenient etc. etc. If they applied with the Belgium embassy but had no genuine intention to go there then they did commit fraud. Ofcourse there could be other reasons such as the original plan becomming impossible: the hotel in Belgium was overbook so the travelagency had to find an other hotel and decided to skip the whole trip to Belgium. But in that case it would be smart to contact the Belgium embassy so that they could discuss how to prevent the border guards of suspecting fraud (after all visa's do not entitle you right of entry, you may be requested that you meet all the requirements once more at the border and thus could be declined entry if the borderguards beleive you do no longer meet the requirements of entry to the Schengen area).

[FredNL]

A Schengen visa must be applied / issued at the embassy of the country where the plane lands first. That is the Schengen law !!!

So if you take a flight to Brussels with a stop in Frankfurt. The visa must be applied at the German embassy !!!

Edited May 2, 2014 by FredNL

[Donutz]

A Schengen visa must be applied / issued at the embassy of the country where the plane lands first. That is the Schengen law !!!

So if you take a flight to Brussels with a stop in Frankfurt. The visa must be applied at the German embassy !!!

Nope, that would be rather silly don't you think?

The Schengen Code on Visa states:

Article 5

Member State competent for examining and deciding on an application

1. The Member State competent for examining and deciding on an application for a uniform visa shall be:

(a )

the Member State whose territory constitutes the sole destination of the visit(s);

(b )

if the visit includes more than one destination, the Member State whose territory constitutes the main destination of the visit(s) in terms of the length or purpose of stay; or

(c )

if no main destination can be determined, the Member State whose external border the applicant intends to cross in order to enter the territory of the Member States.

So you should first of all apply at the country that is your main destination (if you go 3 weeks to Germany and 1 to Spain you should apply with the Germans), if there is no clear main destination you should apply at the country were you will stay first. But you are entitled to enter, rravel and exit via any Schengen country. If you spent 4 days in Germany, 4 in France, 4 in Spain and 4 in Italy in that order, you should apply with th German embassy. But you are allowed to land in Belgium, Netherlands etc. if you make it plausible that you are heading onwards to Germany. If your hotel is close to the German-Dutch-Belgian border it's entirely plauble to land at a Belgian or Dutch airport (tickets might be cheaper there for instance) and then head on to your hotel or host in Germany.

See: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32009R0810 and/or http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/index_en.htm

Edited May 2, 2014 by Donutz

[Beetlejuice]

Probably the best way to describe it , never trust a Thai, the hens have now come home to roost, with everyone mimicking the Thai corrupt leadership, which has been going on for eons, rice scam now visa scam .

Total crap.

I would love to know how many farangs are in Thailand supposedly as tourists on holiday, do the visa runs, becoming the forever tourists and are therefore here under false pretences. Plus those that are using Thais to front their illegal farms, bars, massage parlours, businesses, land and property ownerships and speculators? Also I wonder how many farangs are here with expired visas as over stayers?

One major factor i have learned during my time in Thailand, is to never ask a so called ex-pat what he/she does in Thailand, as shady as hell. Many farangs here have mastered scamming the authorities into a fine art, the behind the scenes back room boys, who have no real entitlements to be here and try to keep low profiles because they are unable to meet the imposed Immigration Department requirements for long stayers here.

If the Thai authorities decided to have a clamp down on these people, I would guess that the majority of long stay farangs would be gone within a week.

I fully realise that there are Thais that try and do cheat the systems abroad, but it works both ways, the good, the bad and the ugly on all sides. Ever heard the old saying; people in glass houses?

Edited May 2, 2014 by Beetlejuice

[aechzen]

don't care the germans ! you are wellcome in Austria !

[ALFREDO]

''Thais refused entry to Germany because of scam, says Thai embassy"

Thais? Scam? Who'd have thought it.

Kind of clever though.

stupid in the long run though

Stupid from the German Authorities,

as they keep with their strict and -More Papal than the Pope- attitude, on the long run, some, possibly a lot, real paying Tourists out of their -Holy Land-

[ALFREDO]

there was a member yesterday saying..."that is the reason, why he never visited Germany".....but now it turns out for me that I like Germany for what they did! Well done Germany! Thank you

Cannot follow your logic.

Anyway, if the Tour group, or one of that group had want to -jump ship- mean had to want to stay on in Schengen area, they had not to wait for a unforeseeable incident. Airplane failure. Would have been a nice courtesy to allow the Thai group, to sleep in good Hotel paid by the Airline.

[ALFREDO]

As is par for the course on TVF, most posters jump in with both feet with absolutely no idea of what's happening in this particular case and why.

1. A group of Thais (rich, affluent as one would have to be to be able to afford a holiday to Europe)

2. Being Thais, they require a Schengen visa

3. It's Songkran period, the peak season of outbound travel from Thailand to Europe and elsewhere

4. Quota at the German Embassy in Bangkok is full, thus no chance to obtain visa from them

5. Their Thai travel agent tries to workaround by applying for the visa at the Belgian Embassy (this is common practice among Thai travel agencies)

6. Visa approved, they depart for their holiday. First point of entry, Italy, most likely Rome

7. They continue their journey to Florence, Venice, Milan, Switzerland (Lucerne or Interlaken) before finally crossing over into Germany.

8. In Germany, they continue making their way up north, maybe including a cruise on the River Rhine

9. They spend their last night in Germany in Frankfurt or Cologne before departing to the airport for their flight BACK to Thailand, where they have their businesses, jobs, families, giks, coyote girls, M Benzs, BMW's etc etc

10. Their TG flight (presumably TG923 ETD 21:20) had a technical problem and presumably would only be able to depart the following day

11. They decided to then stay one more night in Frankfurt rather than roughing it out at the airport (they are after all rich people by Thai standards)

12. However, as the Schengen visa is issued according to original flight schedules, that means their visa has technically expired

Technically speaking, yes, it's a scam in that they obtained the visa from an embassy that they had no intention of visiting. However, this is the result of immigration laws, lazy and inept European consulars enjoying their lives in Thailand and a highly racist attitude towards the Thais and not because these people are trying to enter Europe illegally and work as kitchen helpers, dish washers or prostitutes.

So you think the scam goes all the way to the airline having mechanical issue and these Thais who wanted to overstay their visa went to the airport aware of the planed malfunction rather than just not going to the airport at all?

I was on a plane headed out of Bangkok once that got cancelled due to malfunctions and immigration simply gave people a special stamp whose entry expired. I didn't need one but had to go back through the same special line they set up for us and everyone was worried whose entry was up. Completely idiotic this was not done for the Thais as they would not have been on the plane/in the airport heading back to BKK to begin with if they had an intent to overstay.

The Germans are strict and had been upset, as the rules of the Schengen Visa had been bent.

Some countries give Schengen Visa more relaxed others not. And Germany has a reputation of being very strict,

A decade ago until some year back, Germans looked to get a registering on a Austrian address, so they could go to the Austrian Embassy to make a Schengen Visa for their Thai GF as this was an easier way.

Not long ago, Czech Republic and Slovakia had similar more relaxed Schengen Visa restrictions.

My Cambodian GF had also a problem with her flight, my fault and overstayed her Schengen Visa by a day. I gave her a -letter of apology- for the Austrian border at Vienna Airport, but it was not needed also the overstay was seen, all smiles and OK.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Scott

[ALFREDO]

Looking on the numbers of Visa in comparison to the population,

THANK YOU =Donutz= than is Austria really on a good positive place.

Also regarding declined Visa, only, 0,9 percent. But best go for a Visa at the Slovakian Embassy. 0,0 percent declined.

don't care the germans ! you are wellcome in Austria !

Edited May 3, 2014 by ALFREDO

[Donutz]

Looking on the numbers of Visa in comparison to the population,

THANK YOU =Donuts= than is Austria really on a good positive place.

Also regarding declined Visa, only, 0,9 percent. But best go for a Visa at the Slovakian Embassy. 0,0 percent declined.

Slovakia get's less torusits from Thailand, which makes perfect sense (Germany, France etc. make more logical travel destinations for an expensive holiday abroad), and perhaps the risk of illegal settlement is also less (travelers who intend to work or stay illegaly),. I doubt that in the eastern Schengen members there is much of a Thai network (restaurants, palours etc.) for a Thai to work in, and less demand for low wage labour aswell compared to the western Schengen states.

And since people have to apply at the country that is their main destination (or if there is none, at the country that is their first destination), travelers can't apply with the Slovakians if that is not were they intend to go. Or else we would see a lot more visa shopping, and Slovakia's refusal rate would sky rocket for sure.

The austrians are a friendly bunch, my girlfriends first trip (before we were in a relation) to Europa was to visit family in Austria. She got a multy entry visa even though the host (her sister + austrian husband) did not request one. Good to see competent, friendly embassy staff there. Some embassies seem a bit more strict or less competent or simply less willing, especially if it concers more rare applications such as free visa (visa waived for family members of EU/EEA nationals traveling together to any country other then the EU country that they are a citizen of).

NB: The Swedes told me by e-mail that the high declination rate is due to family/friends visa requests, which makes up the vast majority of the applications. Seems like they are a bit too worried that Thai (girl)friends or family will not return in time or have other plans (illegal labour etc.). Glad I don't live in Sweden. *runs away from angry Swedish forum members*.

[MikeOboe57]

Some seem unable to understand that the group obtained their visa by deliberately making false statements about their journey. And it looks like this "scam" was detected when they applied for permission to leave the airport for the overnight stay.

The visa regulations state clearly - and each applicant has to sign and hand in a leaflet with something like (here the version of the German Embassy in Bangkok):

"[...] If he/she knowingly furnishes false or incomplete information, the visa application may be
refused or the applicant expelled from Germany, should a visa already have been issued.
With his/her signature, the applicant certifies that he/she has been informed of the legal
consequences of furnishing false or incomplete information in the course of visa proceedings. [...]"

This scam apparently served the purpose to obtain the visa at the most lenient embassy of any Schengen state. If the Thai Airways flight had departed on schedule this scam would have gone unnoticed. And because of their false statements on the application form their visa were considered void and the group was rightfully expelled - that they left on their (re-)scheduled original flight does not change this fact.

[ALFREDO]

Slovakia get's less torusits from Thailand,

The austrians are a friendly bunch,

Good to see competent, friendly embassy staff there.

I think, that are the 120 GFs from Slovakians which visited them Not real Tourists.

Regarding Austrians, yes, true. -friendly-

Regarding the Embassy, was more easy a decade ago with Schengen Visa.

I do not hear the story now anymore, that Germans register on Austrian addresses to get Visa possibly more likely. Times have changed.

Me was lucky, as I had my Glory Days in the Good Old Times and could make 10 Visa for 5 GFs from Thailand and Cambodia I invited to me, over the years.

[fvw53]

Why many Thais believe everything quickly ?

ignorance.

most of my thai friends don't understand why i can't get a thai visa in thailand and have to go abroad... and no these are not utter-mongoloid people, they simply don't know jacksh*t about these things. those of them who have been abroad had all practical matters handled by agents and pay for it. keeps them away from getting SILIOUT....

Please inform your "not utter-mongoloid people" :

You cannot get a Thai visa in Thailand because only Embassies of Consulates of Thailand can issue visas allowing you to enter the country.

However in Thailand you can obtain an "extension" of your visa at the Immigration Office of the area where you stay.

[Gweiloman]

As is par for the course on TVF, most posters jump in with both feet with absolutely no idea of what's happening in this particular case and why.

1. A group of Thais (rich, affluent as one would have to be to be able to afford a holiday to Europe)

2. Being Thais, they require a Schengen visa

3. It's Songkran period, the peak season of outbound travel from Thailand to Europe and elsewhere

4. Quota at the German Embassy in Bangkok is full, thus no chance to obtain visa from them

5. Their Thai travel agent tries to workaround by applying for the visa at the Belgian Embassy (this is common practice among Thai travel agencies)

6. Visa approved, they depart for their holiday. First point of entry, Italy, most likely Rome

7. They continue their journey to Florence, Venice, Milan, Switzerland (Lucerne or Interlaken) before finally crossing over into Germany.

8. In Germany, they continue making their way up north, maybe including a cruise on the River Rhine

9. They spend their last night in Germany in Frankfurt or Cologne before departing to the airport for their flight BACK to Thailand, where they have their businesses, jobs, families, giks, coyote girls, M Benzs, BMW's etc etc

10. Their TG flight (presumably TG923 ETD 21:20) had a technical problem and presumably would only be able to depart the following day

11. They decided to then stay one more night in Frankfurt rather than roughing it out at the airport (they are after all rich people by Thai standards)

12. However, as the Schengen visa is issued according to original flight schedules, that means their visa has technically expired

Technically speaking, yes, it's a scam in that they obtained the visa from an embassy that they had no intention of visiting. However, this is the result of immigration laws, lazy and inept European consulars enjoying their lives in Thailand and a highly racist attitude towards the Thais and not because these people are trying to enter Europe illegally and work as kitchen helpers, dish washers or prostitutes.

-4- The embassy can't be "full" since the Schengen Visa Code states that the embassy must accept all applications and decide on the application within 15 days, in individual cases to be extended to 30 days and in exceptional cases to 60 days. If there is a need for an appointment one should be granted within 2 weeks of the request. And at all times can an applicant lodge an application directly with the embassy so there is no need to go to an external service provider such as VFS or TLS. Those are entirely optional and the embassy is obligated to inform people clearly about this. A visa shouldn't cost you more then the official fee (default: 60 euro's, for some less or it's waived) unless somebody choses themselves to use a service provider.

10-12: if they stuck to the orginal schedule and would leave Germany (or any other Schengen country) on the last day of the visa but were unable to do so due to technical problems with the aircraft there shouldn't be much of an issue. Technically the visa would have expired the following day but there isn't much to worry about. They don't issue a temporary ban unless you overstay by more then 3 days, and for those countries that do fine for overstay (Germany is one, oddly there aren't Schenge wide agreements on such a penalty or how high a fine should be...) I would expect them to be lenient and waive any fine for a a 1 day overstay due to problems with the aircraft.

If the travel agent is gaming the system by embassy shopping and presenting false itineraries, they have to be rather dumb not to add on a day to the itinerary in case of a flight delay on the way home. The Schengen embassies usually issue the visas for the exact dates on the itineraries.

Obviously the 60 Thais had visas expiring on the day of the return flight. I am not at all convinced that German immigration would have let them in for an extra day whatever the case. I think this story of a scam is a red herring to pass the blame on to the travel agent instead of inflexible Schengen immigration policies. The US and the UK would do exactly the same thing, if visas were expired, but their embassies usually issue longer term tourist visas as standard, e.g. 10 years (US), 6 months (UK).

The problem is really the Schengen policy of issuing visas for the exact dates of the itinerary. I am sure this is group is not the first to be stranded like this.

They generally do issue the amount of days requested but they may round this up or issue less if they think it's reasonable to do so. Some people apply for 90 days but get only 30 (others get an outright declination if they believe 90 days is not a legit request) , some round the number of days up: request 15 days but get 20 days... And as always the date the visa starts and ends is longer then the amount of days issued. A visa may be issued for 20 days but issued to be issued between april 1st and april 30th.

I don't see how this is a scam because all Schengen countries should have the same rules. Obviously they don't, and that is teh fau;t of the Schengen countries. If the Schengen countries followed their own rules, then this couldn't happen. If you apply for a Schengen visa, it shouldn't matter what country you apply to or which countries you visit. You're applying foe a block visa. All blame for this lies with the shambles that is the EU and Schengen. All following different lawas and rules even though they're not supposed to. But no-one doing anything about it.

So the Thai tour companies are applying for Schengen visas and visiting Schengen countries. WOW, what a scam. NOT. How on earth can it be a scam to visit the area you applied for a visa for? All the Thai tour companies are doing is showing what a shambles Schengen is, and some countries (e.g. German) don't like people pointing out what a shambles it is.

Sounds like Belgium may be issues visas when it shouldn't be. Solution - sort them out instead of blaming others. There isn't anything in the rules saying you can't cancel a booking or change it. This is not a scam at all.

See above, they rules are roughly the same but there is some margen for the embassies to set specific requirements or be more lenient etc. etc. If they applied with the Belgium embassy but had no genuine intention to go there then they did commit fraud. Ofcourse there could be other reasons such as the original plan becomming impossible: the hotel in Belgium was overbook so the travelagency had to find an other hotel and decided to skip the whole trip to Belgium. But in that case it would be smart to contact the Belgium embassy so that they could discuss how to prevent the border guards of suspecting fraud (after all visa's do not entitle you right of entry, you may be requested that you meet all the requirements once more at the border and thus could be declined entry if the borderguards beleive you do no longer meet the requirements of entry to the Schengen area).

Point 4 - yes, you are right if talking about individual applications. However, it is different for group applications. Embassies issue a per day quota (for eg, the Italian embassy has a quota of 50 applications per day. While this works fine most of the year, it becomes a problem during the high seasons of Songkran and October. There are agents who make a business of just selling their "quotas" to the more genuine outbound agents).

[Gweiloman]

The Schengen rules are very clear and it is obvious that the Thai tour operators went for the easiest way, not being the correct way.

As we could have read, they apply for visas in e.g. Belgium, have (fake or not) hotel reservations, so all seems to be ok. Visas given.

Then they cancel (if they were real at all) the hotels and introduce plan B, which not even includes Belgium on the tour...

When that came out the German immigration followed the rules and didn't let them enter Germany (from the airport where they were stamped out earlier) as they had no valid visas.

Schengen visa has to be applied either for the country where you stay first, or for the country where you stay the longest time. That's it.

Not a big deal, the advantage is that you can travel in 25 countries without additional visa, even non-Schengen country Switzerland is joining.

BTW someone mentioned France and UK in one day. Possible but you lose your visa, as UK is not a member of Schengen!

So Thais became the victim of a scamming tour operator, and that is the real culprit, not any of the embassies or immigration offices.

To you and those posters claiming that these travellers were the vicitms of a scamming tour operator, I'm afraid that you don't understand how the outbound travel industry works. The tour operator is not trying to scam the travellers, instead they are looking for a solution to a very common problem for Thai (group) travellers. Moreover, this scheme requires the cooperation of the European ground operator handing the ground services for this group (producing a fake itinerary, making the necessary hotel confirmation, getting the confirmation from the hotel, submitting it to the embassy etc etc)

What has happened in this case is very common, for the reasons that I have stated in an earlier post.

[SanukJoeII]

The Schengen rules are very clear and it is obvious that the Thai tour operators went for the easiest way, not being the correct way.

As we could have read, they apply for visas in e.g. Belgium, have (fake or not) hotel reservations, so all seems to be ok. Visas given.

Then they cancel (if they were real at all) the hotels and introduce plan B, which not even includes Belgium on the tour...

When that came out the German immigration followed the rules and didn't let them enter Germany (from the airport where they were stamped out earlier) as they had no valid visas.

Schengen visa has to be applied either for the country where you stay first, or for the country where you stay the longest time. That's it.

Not a big deal, the advantage is that you can travel in 25 countries without additional visa, even non-Schengen country Switzerland is joining.

BTW someone mentioned France and UK in one day. Possible but you lose your visa, as UK is not a member of Schengen!

So Thais became the victim of a scamming tour operator, and that is the real culprit, not any of the embassies or immigration offices.

To you and those posters claiming that these travellers were the vicitms of a scamming tour operator, I'm afraid that you don't understand how the outbound travel industry works. The tour operator is not trying to scam the travellers, instead they are looking for a solution to a very common problem for Thai (group) travellers. Moreover, this scheme requires the cooperation of the European ground operator handing the ground services for this group (producing a fake itinerary, making the necessary hotel confirmation, getting the confirmation from the hotel, submitting it to the embassy etc etc)

What has happened in this case is very common, for the reasons that I have stated in an earlier post.

What part of scam don't you understand? Applying for a country where you have no intention to enter is fraud, and as has been said each applicant signs to have given correct information and can be punished with expel out of the country if fraud comes out. Simple or not?

Of course the tour operating industry in Thailand has their "ways" to go around the requirements. That is fine, but if things go wrong it is them who are to blame, not immigration or customs officers....

Looking at the table in post 76, Belgium is second most difficult country, after Sweden. Italy (where they landed first) has a much better score, so would not be a problem. Someone said Italy has a quota of 50 visas per day, that makes 18,250 per year. Strange then that their number in the table is way above 25,000.... Seems someone does not have enough facts to write such statements.

If I were a tour operator I would apply in Luxemburg, Greece, Czech republic. Don't say there is nothing to visit for tourists, as they are beautiful countries with a rich history and culture..

Fact remains: tour operators scam for Schengen visas, if nothing unexpected happens nobody will notice, if a flight is delayed one day things come to the surface, like now. Som nam na.

[samran]

So I take it all the people here are on legitimate annual visas for Thailand and not pretending to be tourists?

Oh if only Thai immigration were as good as the Germans. We'd have a lot of people on the first plane home never able to return!

[Donutz]

Point 4 - yes, you are right if talking about individual applications. However, it is different for group applications. Embassies issue a per day quota (for eg, the Italian embassy has a quota of 50 applications per day. While this works fine most of the year, it becomes a problem during the high seasons of Songkran and October. There are agents who make a business of just selling their "quotas" to the more genuine outbound agents).

I can't find anything in the Visum Code that suggests the rules are different (more strict/limited) for group tours or a bunch of visa applications being made by a third party (service provider etc, travel agency etc.) when it comes to processing time (there is some stuff regarding checking the legitimacy etc. but that seens rather obvious).

Article 9

Practical modalities for lodging an application

1. Applications shall be lodged no more than three months before the start of the intended visit. Holders of a multiple-entry visa may lodge the application before the expiry of the visa valid for a period of at least six months.

2. Applicants may be required to obtain an appointment for the lodging of an application. The appointment shall, as a rule, take place within a period of two weeks from the date when the appointment was requested.

3. In justified cases of urgency, the consulate may allow applicants to lodge their applications either without appointment, or an appointment shall be given immediately.

4. Applications may be lodged at the consulate by the applicant or by accredited commercial intermediaries, as provided for in Article 45(1), without prejudice to Article 13, or in accordance with Article 42 or 43.

(...)

Article 23

Decision on the application

1. Applications shall be decided on within 15 calendar days of the date of the lodging of an application which is admissible in accordance with Article 19.

2. That period may be extended up to a maximum of 30 calendar days in individual cases, notably when further scrutiny of the application is needed or in cases of representation where the authorities of the represented Member State are consulted.

3. Exceptionally, when additional documentation is needed in specific cases, the period may be extended up to a maximum of 60 calendar days.

4. Unless the application has been withdrawn, a decision shall be taken to:

(a)

issue a uniform visa in accordance with Article 24;

(

issue a visa with limited territorial validity in accordance with Article 25;

©

refuse a visa in accordance with Article 32; or

(d)

discontinue the examination of the application and transfer it to the relevant authorities of the represented Member State in accordance with Article 8(2).

The fact that fingerprinting is physically impossible, in accordance with Article 13(7)(, shall not influence the issuing or refusal of a visa.

The quotum more seems like a rule made up by the (in this case Italian) embassy. You'd think a group tour makes things easier in some ways aswell: rather then having say 30 people with 30 unqiue applications (travel plans for the purpose of tourism) they can check most of this in one go. 30 bookings for 30 hotels sounds like a lot more work to me then 1 single reservation for 30 rooms/people in one hotel.

Unless I'm missing something (???), I'm not a legal expert, just a silly sod who had read the Visa Code and who is trying to get a better understanding of visa . I'm all to aware though that various embassies seem to use the Visa Code and other regulations as toilet paper though...

I don't know how they take biometrics (fingerprints) for the VIS though when it concerns group tours.. Since most EU embassies across the globe now take your biometrics for visa applications.

NB: Group tours are considered as "commercial intermediaries".

Edit:

So I take it all the people here are on legitimate annual visas for Thailand and not pretending to be tourists?

Oh if only Thai immigration were as good as the Germans. We'd have a lot of people on the first plane home never able to return!

What's wrong with applying the rules and takin action against those who cheat the system (commit fraud). In Thailand there are various rules, and I myself find various aspects of Schegen/UK/Thai visa (let alone ressidence permit rules) rather silly. But you'd still need to abide them. For those on a visa to Thailand the same applies: having to go through the various hoops such as a border run, having X amount of cash blablabla. If somebody would try to cheat the Thai system, wouldn't it make sense that if such a person is caught, they face various consequences? Ofcourse there should be some room for tolerance incase the officers/officials believe there has been a genuine mistake (1 day overstay or such) or something happend that was beyond the reasonable responsibility of the applicant (tourist), but never coun't on it .

Edited May 5, 2014 by Donutz

[White Christmas13]

Slovakia get's less torusits from Thailand,

The austrians are a friendly bunch,

Good to see competent, friendly embassy staff there.

I think, that are the 120 GFs from Slovakians which visited them Not real Tourists.

Regarding Austrians, yes, true. -friendly-

Regarding the Embassy, was more easy a decade ago with Schengen Visa.

I do not hear the story now anymore, that Germans register on Austrian addresses to get Visa possibly more likely. Times have changed.

Me was lucky, as I had my Glory Days in the Good Old Times and could make 10 Visa for 5 GFs from Thailand and Cambodia I invited to me, over the years.

Yes no need to register an Austrian address anymore since the Austrian Embassy handles all German

and Latvian visas as well

[Gweiloman]

The Schengen rules are very clear and it is obvious that the Thai tour operators went for the easiest way, not being the correct way.

As we could have read, they apply for visas in e.g. Belgium, have (fake or not) hotel reservations, so all seems to be ok. Visas given.

Then they cancel (if they were real at all) the hotels and introduce plan B, which not even includes Belgium on the tour...

When that came out the German immigration followed the rules and didn't let them enter Germany (from the airport where they were stamped out earlier) as they had no valid visas.

Schengen visa has to be applied either for the country where you stay first, or for the country where you stay the longest time. That's it.

Not a big deal, the advantage is that you can travel in 25 countries without additional visa, even non-Schengen country Switzerland is joining.

BTW someone mentioned France and UK in one day. Possible but you lose your visa, as UK is not a member of Schengen!

So Thais became the victim of a scamming tour operator, and that is the real culprit, not any of the embassies or immigration offices.

To you and those posters claiming that these travellers were the vicitms of a scamming tour operator, I'm afraid that you don't understand how the outbound travel industry works. The tour operator is not trying to scam the travellers, instead they are looking for a solution to a very common problem for Thai (group) travellers. Moreover, this scheme requires the cooperation of the European ground operator handing the ground services for this group (producing a fake itinerary, making the necessary hotel confirmation, getting the confirmation from the hotel, submitting it to the embassy etc etc)

What has happened in this case is very common, for the reasons that I have stated in an earlier post.

What part of scam don't you understand? Applying for a country where you have no intention to enter is fraud, and as has been said each applicant signs to have given correct information and can be punished with expel out of the country if fraud comes out. Simple or not?

Of course the tour operating industry in Thailand has their "ways" to go around the requirements. That is fine, but if things go wrong it is them who are to blame, not immigration or customs officers....

Looking at the table in post 76, Belgium is second most difficult country, after Sweden. Italy (where they landed first) has a much better score, so would not be a problem. Someone said Italy has a quota of 50 visas per day, that makes 18,250 per year. Strange then that their number in the table is way above 25,000.... Seems someone does not have enough facts to write such statements.

If I were a tour operator I would apply in Luxemburg, Greece, Czech republic. Don't say there is nothing to visit for tourists, as they are beautiful countries with a rich history and culture..

Fact remains: tour operators scam for Schengen visas, if nothing unexpected happens nobody will notice, if a flight is delayed one day things come to the surface, like now. Som nam na.

You can call it a scam or whatever you like. Fact is that no one is trying to scam anyone here. It's merely a group of affluent Thai people wishing to go for a holiday in Europe, take lots of pictures and spend bucket loads of money shopping. No one's blaming anyone (I'm not anyway).

It was also I who stated that Italy gave a quota of 50 visas per day - I meant to say that the Italian embassy only accepts 50 applications per day, for group tours. This is separate from FIT applications. As to whether I have sufficient facts to write such a statement - yes as I do as I make my living in this industry and it's one of the problems that we face and deal with daily.

As to visiting other countries in Europe, I don't disagree that there is nothing for tourists and Luxembourg/Greece may be interesting to visit once or twice but that's about it. Do you want these tourists to keep going to the same countries year after year? Furthermore, shopping is not as good in these places as other parts of Europe such as Milan, Lucerne and Paris. But you are obviously not a planning expert if you would suggest to Thais to visit Lux and Greece and the Czech Republic on the same tour. I suggest you stick to your day job and not become a tour operator

Fact remains: tour operators (not just in Thailand but in other Asian countries as well, such as Vietnam, Indonesia and the Philippines) will try to look for workarounds where possible. No one is trying to scam anyone, no harm is being done to the countries being visited. Instead, hard currency is flowing into these economies in the form of hotel nights, coach transfers, entrance taxes to various Italian cities, restaurants, museums, guide fees and shops.

[Gweiloman]

Point 4 - yes, you are right if talking about individual applications. However, it is different for group applications. Embassies issue a per day quota (for eg, the Italian embassy has a quota of 50 applications per day. While this works fine most of the year, it becomes a problem during the high seasons of Songkran and October. There are agents who make a business of just selling their "quotas" to the more genuine outbound agents).

I can't find anything in the Visum Code that suggests the rules are different (more strict/limited) for group tours or a bunch of visa applications being made by a third party (service provider etc, travel agency etc.) when it comes to processing time (there is some stuff regarding checking the legitimacy etc. but that seens rather obvious).

I believe it is unlikely that you will find anything written down in black and white with regards to this. This is a purely operational procedure of individual embassies who do not wish to be flooded with visa applications or are unable to deal with the demand especially during the peak periods.

One needs to understand how the outbound travel industry works. There are two general forms of tour classification - leisure / series / collective and ad hoc incentives. The former are those advertised in the papers and anyone (with sufficient funds of course) can purchase places on these tours. The latter are corporate sponsored, usually to their agents / distributors etc.

Ad hoc incentives tend to operate outside of the peak months of April and October for many reasons. Travel dates are usually fixed far in advance and the number of pax are usually known and fixed as well in advance. Visa application typically takes two to three weeks and the travel agent is able to plan better and to obtain the date from the embassy to submit the visa applications.

The leisure business is very different. Peak travel period is the week before Songkran. Go to the airport anytime from 07 April onwards and you will know what I mean. Travel agents cannot know in advance how many pax will join the tour. They would have paid the deposit for a certain number of airline tickets and they need to try and sell as many seats as they can. Thus, they hold the tour open till the last minute. Only once they have closed the tour can they then try to get an opening at the "relevant" embassy for submitting the visa applications. The relevant embassy is usually the one where the tour group will spend the most number of days or in certain cases, the point of first entry.

Having spent the last 25 years in this industry, I could probably write a whole book about the hoops that travel agents from Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines etc have to jump through in order to conduct their business. Japan became visa free for Thais from last year. This is one of the key reasons why the percentage of travellers travelling to Europe this Songkran has dropped from 50% last Songkran to only 15% this time round, as Japan is a much easier destination to sell and to operate.

[manarak]

"Some Thai tour agencies apply for Schengen visas with a Schengen country complete with hotel bookings and in line with the other requirements. When the visas are approved, they cancel all the bookings and travel to other countries instead," the statement read.

When some countries put unreasonably restrictive rules in place that abusively restrict people's right of free movements (i.e. travel), some have to use such methods and apply in other countries to obtain their rights.

I have had to request several times visa for non-EU citizens from Germany and France and both are a pain in the ass to obtain, I really felt sorry for my guests, they were treated like dirt.

The French even don't process the applications themselves, they use some kind of company to "prepare" the files, applicants are subject to all kinds of administrative finickry and abuse of power.

Disgusting.

That being said, I see nothing wrong with confining people with no valid visa to the airport to spend the night.

Edited May 6, 2014 by manarak

[Tomtomtom69]

"Some Thai tour agencies apply for Schengen visas with a Schengen country complete with hotel bookings and in line with the other requirements. When the visas are approved, they cancel all the bookings and travel to other countries instead," the statement read.

When some countries put unreasonably restrictive rules in place that abusively restrict people's right of free movements (i.e. travel), some have to use such methods and apply in other countries to obtain their rights.

I have had to request several times visa for non-EU citizens from Germany and France and both are a pain in the ass to obtain, I really felt sorry for my guests, they were treated like dirt.

The French even don't process the applications themselves, they use some kind of company to "prepare" the files, applicants are subject to all kinds of administrative finickry and abuse of power.

Disgusting.

That being said, I see nothing wrong with confining people with no valid visa to the airport to spend the night.

It's just the way it is. Citizens of poor, developing countries traveling to developed nations have a high rate of overstaying and not returning home. These measures are put in place to ensure only the most affluent citizens of these countries, which are highly unlikely to overstay, will be allowed to enter. I don't see how anyone is "treated like dirt".

[manarak]

"Some Thai tour agencies apply for Schengen visas with a Schengen country complete with hotel bookings and in line with the other requirements. When the visas are approved, they cancel all the bookings and travel to other countries instead," the statement read.

When some countries put unreasonably restrictive rules in place that abusively restrict people's right of free movements (i.e. travel), some have to use such methods and apply in other countries to obtain their rights.

I have had to request several times visa for non-EU citizens from Germany and France and both are a pain in the ass to obtain, I really felt sorry for my guests, they were treated like dirt.

The French even don't process the applications themselves, they use some kind of company to "prepare" the files, applicants are subject to all kinds of administrative finickry and abuse of power.

Disgusting.

That being said, I see nothing wrong with confining people with no valid visa to the airport to spend the night.

It's just the way it is. Citizens of poor, developing countries traveling to developed nations have a high rate of overstaying and not returning home. These measures are put in place to ensure only the most affluent citizens of these countries, which are highly unlikely to overstay, will be allowed to enter. I don't see how anyone is "treated like dirt".

Wait until you are in the situation of asking your own (EU-)country to deliver a visa to one of your friends.

[SanukJoeII]

The Schengen rules are very clear and it is obvious that the Thai tour operators went for the easiest way, not being the correct way.

As we could have read, they apply for visas in e.g. Belgium, have (fake or not) hotel reservations, so all seems to be ok. Visas given.

Then they cancel (if they were real at all) the hotels and introduce plan B, which not even includes Belgium on the tour...

When that came out the German immigration followed the rules and didn't let them enter Germany (from the airport where they were stamped out earlier) as they had no valid visas.

Schengen visa has to be applied either for the country where you stay first, or for the country where you stay the longest time. That's it.

Not a big deal, the advantage is that you can travel in 25 countries without additional visa, even non-Schengen country Switzerland is joining.

BTW someone mentioned France and UK in one day. Possible but you lose your visa, as UK is not a member of Schengen!

So Thais became the victim of a scamming tour operator, and that is the real culprit, not any of the embassies or immigration offices.

To you and those posters claiming that these travellers were the vicitms of a scamming tour operator, I'm afraid that you don't understand how the outbound travel industry works. The tour operator is not trying to scam the travellers, instead they are looking for a solution to a very common problem for Thai (group) travellers. Moreover, this scheme requires the cooperation of the European ground operator handing the ground services for this group (producing a fake itinerary, making the necessary hotel confirmation, getting the confirmation from the hotel, submitting it to the embassy etc etc)

What has happened in this case is very common, for the reasons that I have stated in an earlier post.

What part of scam don't you understand? Applying for a country where you have no intention to enter is fraud, and as has been said each applicant signs to have given correct information and can be punished with expel out of the country if fraud comes out. Simple or not?

Of course the tour operating industry in Thailand has their "ways" to go around the requirements. That is fine, but if things go wrong it is them who are to blame, not immigration or customs officers....

Looking at the table in post 76, Belgium is second most difficult country, after Sweden. Italy (where they landed first) has a much better score, so would not be a problem. Someone said Italy has a quota of 50 visas per day, that makes 18,250 per year. Strange then that their number in the table is way above 25,000.... Seems someone does not have enough facts to write such statements.

If I were a tour operator I would apply in Luxemburg, Greece, Czech republic. Don't say there is nothing to visit for tourists, as they are beautiful countries with a rich history and culture..

Fact remains: tour operators scam for Schengen visas, if nothing unexpected happens nobody will notice, if a flight is delayed one day things come to the surface, like now. Som nam na.

You can call it a scam or whatever you like. Fact is that no one is trying to scam anyone here. It's merely a group of affluent Thai people wishing to go for a holiday in Europe, take lots of pictures and spend bucket loads of money shopping. No one's blaming anyone (I'm not anyway).

It was also I who stated that Italy gave a quota of 50 visas per day - I meant to say that the Italian embassy only accepts 50 applications per day, for group tours. This is separate from FIT applications. As to whether I have sufficient facts to write such a statement - yes as I do as I make my living in this industry and it's one of the problems that we face and deal with daily.

As to visiting other countries in Europe, I don't disagree that there is nothing for tourists and Luxembourg/Greece may be interesting to visit once or twice but that's about it. Do you want these tourists to keep going to the same countries year after year? Furthermore, shopping is not as good in these places as other parts of Europe such as Milan, Lucerne and Paris. But you are obviously not a planning expert if you would suggest to Thais to visit Lux and Greece and the Czech Republic on the same tour. I suggest you stick to your day job and not become a tour operator

Fact remains: tour operators (not just in Thailand but in other Asian countries as well, such as Vietnam, Indonesia and the Philippines) will try to look for workarounds where possible. No one is trying to scam anyone, no harm is being done to the countries being visited. Instead, hard currency is flowing into these economies in the form of hotel nights, coach transfers, entrance taxes to various Italian cities, restaurants, museums, guide fees and shops.

You call it "workarounds", most people call it scam. You (if you do) scam the Schengen system and rules, it is unlawful and therefor unacceptable.