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'Visa scam' blamed for Frankfurt Airport drama


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The Nation got it all wrong again and the Thai Embassy in Belgium doesn’t seem to have a clue what they are talking about.

This has nothing to do with a "scam" as they called it these people where obviously genuine tourists visiting several Schengen countries during their trip. They where just unlucky that they already had gone through German immigration and found out after that their plane would not be flying.

It is then up to the different regulations in different countries if they can be taken to a hotel or not or if the airport in question has a hotel in the transit area. Obviously the 14 passengers left behind where very unlucky as their visa expired after midnight on the day they traveled.

As for the "Scam" the Thai Embassy is talking about - they should check their facts before they make stupid statements like this and as well should The Nation !

The outdated requirements of Schengen and other countries in today's connected world are to blame for some of the "creativity" these travel agents have to come up with!

What is the reason that if one applies for a Schengen visa one needs to show a confirmed reservation for a flight in and out of the country?

A reservation one can only get from a travel agent - I have not used a travel agent in 15 years I book all my flights online - but maybe the people who make these rules are to old to understand what cyber age and "online" means?!

Why should I book a flight before I am sure that I will have my visa in my passport?

I had to pay a Thai travel agent 500 Baht ones to get a reservation for a visa application and then later once the visa was issued booked our flights online - if one would book fully refundable tickets online the cost is considerably higher and who wants to waste money if one can avoid it. But of course why should people who work at embassies ever worry about things like the price of a ticket after all all their bills a shouldered by the tax payer!

So what these travel agents do is they make "dummy" bookings for the visa application - then apply at embassies which are not as busy as for example the German embassy to get the Schengen visas for their clients. Once the visas are issued they then proceed with the real bookings - one can hardly call this a "scam" it is just getting around outdated regulations.

"The embassy recommended that Thai travelers apply for visa for the country where they will be landing first."

this again is uninformed advise - As for which country to apply for a visa is not up to he travel itinerary either - some visitors need sponsors who sign a letter of guaranty in their country of residence which might not be the first country the visitor flies to or why should somebody who wants to visit Salzburg in Austria fly to Vienna if the airport in Munich, Germany is much closer?

On our last trip to Schengen countries we applied for a visa at the Austrian embassy as we where invited to a wedding there and would spend most of the time sighseeing in Austria and southern Germany - taking the opportunity to visit Paris for a few days first we booked our flights to Paris and then from Paris to Munich traveling on from there by car to Salzburg which is just an hours drive.

and that's how it should be - after all the tickets and return flights for people requiring a visa are checked at check in by he airline again as they are responsible not to carry passengers without valid visas and after all European borders falling and the Schengen agreement was meant to make traveling easier and not more difficult.

Regulations though have to be brought up to the "online" age also for visitors who do not travel on organized tours and book reasonable priced flights through the internet.

But this is of course beyond the comprehension of embassies staff quoted in the article above - because if they would know anything about the hassles their fellow Thai countryman are put through when traveling they would not make stupid statements like in this article in The Nation.

Maybe it is time to put embassy staff through the same visa circus every time they travel and allow only the most senior diplomats diplomatic passports - wonder how quickly their attitude and regulations would change?

And as for their comment "The embassy also warned that Thai nationals might face difficulties when applying for a Schengen visa in the future"

Why should this be the case? - they where obviously genuine tourists visiting Europe - just unlucky their visa expired the day they left Germany.

There is surely no "danger" these Thai tourists could be posing to European immigration authorities - Europe has far bigger problems with fellow European member countries to the east - entering legally without visas - and others entering illegally exploiting the social securtity system and commiting crimes in western European countries.

You are mixing several issues.

1.To obtain a "Tourist" Schengen Visa you are obliged to present your airline ticket and hotel reservations for your whole stay. These documents are the prerequisite for the granting of the visa. Using "dummy bookings" or fake reservations is cheating and may lead to legal repercussions. Apparently the travel agent was using this "avenue" to obtain the visa for his clients at a "friendly" embassy.

2. A sponsor is only needed for a "Visitor" Schengen visa, for visiting friends, relatives or your family - and only if you cannot provide an income statement showing that you can cover all expenses by yourself. For this visitor visa you do not have to present any airline tickets of hotel reservations.

3. It makes sense to apply for the "tourist" visa at the country of the aerodrome of entry as this is the only location where your passport and visa will be checked. For family/friends etc. visit you select the embassy of their country even when you arrive at/depart from a neighbouring country - in case the embassy and local authorities need to do additional inquiries (e.g sponsors).

From the report it appears that the Thai group obtained their visa through false documentation by the travel agent and they were lucky to just have to spend the night at FRA. It is quite understandable that the German Border Police was reluctant to allow them out of the transit area after their cheat became apparent.

The Thai Embassy in Belgium is spot on with their warning that stunts like that will have a long term effect on all the "honest" visa applicants.

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those who tarnish the Thai image should be paraded around the counrty as heros. we need more people like this, and THaksin to lead us into desperation and .. well.. death. THey say thiland is the City of Angels. haha. Like a contradiction. it must be oppisite day life in this country.

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I think it's OK to tweak your itinerary to get an extra day on the wife's Schengen visa to cover flight delays but I would not advise applying for the visa at the wrong embassy. You can easily be quizzed about your itinerary on entry to Schengenland. My wife was quizzed in detail once on entry to Norway but luckily all was in order.

Unfortunately for these Thais they were probably unaware of what the travel agent had done for its own convenience. The Schengen embassies should routinely issue visas for an extra day to cover flight delays.

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I would not call this a scam it is an oversight by the agent who booked the flight

and i am talking first hand experience

booked a flight for my Thai wife and nephew to Germany the connecting flight

was in Amsterdam(could not get a direct one at the time) since we had to collect

our luggage and check in again with a different airline we had to walk out of the

customs area which means you entered the Netherlands to do this we had to get

an airport transfer visa. The customs acted correctly by refusing Thai nationals

to leave the airport if they are allowed to leave the airport they could just stay

and never get back on the flight.

You should read the entire article as its an interesting technique to circumvent the system.

This scam described in the article is nothing at all like what you describe happened to you.

Cheers

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I think it's OK to tweak your itinerary to get an extra day on the wife's Schengen visa to cover flight delays but I would not advise applying for the visa at the wrong embassy. You can easily be quizzed about your itinerary on entry to Schengenland. My wife was quizzed in detail once on entry to Norway but luckily all was in order.

Unfortunately for these Thais they were probably unaware of what the travel agent had done for its own convenience. The Schengen embassies should routinely issue visas for an extra day to cover flight delays.

Wives of EU citizens do not apply for "tourist" visa, so flight itinerary is of no concern. My wife got a "visitor" Schengen Visa valid for 3 years until 2017 - of course the 90/180 days limitations still apply, it is not a residence permit.

Besides, it should not be impossible for a decent travel agent to request an extra day beyond the date of departure, especially if the flight is late evening from FRA. Since they got their 4th runway they are subject to strict night flying restrictions. Any delays due to technical troubles or whatever other reason and your plane returns to the gate for unloading - see you tomorrow.

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I would not call this a scam it is an oversight by the agent who booked the flight

and i am talking first hand experience

booked a flight for my Thai wife and nephew to Germany the connecting flight

was in Amsterdam(could not get a direct one at the time) since we had to collect

our luggage and check in again with a different airline we had to walk out of the

customs area which means you entered the Netherlands to do this we had to get

an airport transfer visa. The customs acted correctly by refusing Thai nationals

to leave the airport if they are allowed to leave the airport they could just stay

and never get back on the flight.

You should read the entire article as its an interesting technique to circumvent the system.

This scam described in the article is nothing at all like what you describe happened to you.

Cheers

I did read the whole article what is wrong with my reply? I am just making a point

there are rules and regulations witch affects every one not only Thais and since you are an expert

on scams post a link so we can have every body reading this. I just don't get your post

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those who tarnish the Thai image should be paraded around the counrty as heros. we need more people like this, and THaksin to lead us into desperation and .. well.. death. THey say thiland is the City of Angels. haha. Like a contradiction. it must be oppisite day life in this country.

"THey say thiland is the City of Angels."

Do they now? I believe you will find that Thailand, for some reason, is called The Land of Smiles.

The capital, Bangkok is referred to by part of its real name "City of Angels" (The ones that slide up next to you., you know.)

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The THAI flight was delayed due to technical problems was the work of Some Thai tour agencies wanting to smugger people into Germany?

Stupid excuse. Stupid German Immigration officers.

Before you blast off the Thainess, think first. These people has already pass German exit immigration, on their way home to Thailand, not trying to get into Germany.

They were trying to get back into Germany after going through immigration to depart, to go to a hotel, read the text.n

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<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I would not call this a scam it is an oversight by the agent who booked the flight

and i am talking first hand experience

booked a flight for my Thai wife and nephew to Germany the connecting flight

was in Amsterdam(could not get a direct one at the time) since we had to collect

our luggage and check in again with a different airline we had to walk out of the

customs area which means you entered the Netherlands to do this we had to get

an airport transfer visa. The customs acted correctly by refusing Thai nationals

to leave the airport if they are allowed to leave the airport they could just stay

and never get back on the flight.

I assume that in your case the visa simply had expired, in which case you won't be able to pass the border checkpoint anymore obviously) but had to stay in the transit area. If the visa was still valid you could have entered the Netherlands just fine. For instance, if you had a Schengen visa applied for with the italians, spent the majority of your holiday there you could also head to the Netherlands (by plane, care, on foot, ...) and spent some time there aswell. And fly out via Schiphol airport (NL) to BKK.

The Nation got it all wrong again and the Thai Embassy in Belgium doesn’t seem to have a clue what they are talking about.

This has nothing to do with a "scam" as they called it these people where obviously genuine tourists visiting several Schengen countries during their trip. They where just unlucky that they already had gone through German immigration and found out after that their plane would not be flying.

It is then up to the different regulations in different countries if they can be taken to a hotel or not or if the airport in question has a hotel in the transit area. Obviously the 14 passengers left behind where very unlucky as their visa expired after midnight on the day they traveled.

As for the "Scam" the Thai Embassy is talking about - they should check their facts before they make stupid statements like this and as well should The Nation !

The outdated requirements of Schengen and other countries in today's connected world are to blame for some of the "creativity" these travel agents have to come up with!

What is the reason that if one applies for a Schengen visa one needs to show a confirmed reservation for a flight in and out of the country?

A reservation one can only get from a travel agent - I have not used a travel agent in 15 years I book all my flights online - but maybe the people who make these rules are to old to understand what cyber age and "online" means?!

Why should I book a flight before I am sure that I will have my visa in my passport?

I had to pay a Thai travel agent 500 Baht ones to get a reservation for a visa application and then later once the visa was issued booked our flights online - if one would book fully refundable tickets online the cost is considerably higher and who wants to waste money if one can avoid it. But of course why should people who work at embassies ever worry about things like the price of a ticket after all all their bills a shouldered by the tax payer!

So what these travel agents do is they make "dummy" bookings for the visa application - then apply at embassies which are not as busy as for example the German embassy to get the Schengen visas for their clients. Once the visas are issued they then proceed with the real bookings - one can hardly call this a "scam" it is just getting around outdated regulations.

"The embassy recommended that Thai travelers apply for visa for the country where they will be landing first."

this again is uninformed advise - As for which country to apply for a visa is not up to he travel itinerary either - some visitors need sponsors who sign a letter of guaranty in their country of residence which might not be the first country the visitor flies to or why should somebody who wants to visit Salzburg in Austria fly to Vienna if the airport in Munich, Germany is much closer?

On our last trip to Schengen countries we applied for a visa at the Austrian embassy as we where invited to a wedding there and would spend most of the time sighseeing in Austria and southern Germany - taking the opportunity to visit Paris for a few days first we booked our flights to Paris and then from Paris to Munich traveling on from there by car to Salzburg which is just an hours drive.

and that's how it should be - after all the tickets and return flights for people requiring a visa are checked at check in by he airline again as they are responsible not to carry passengers without valid visas and after all European borders falling and the Schengen agreement was meant to make traveling easier and not more difficult.

Regulations though have to be brought up to the "online" age also for visitors who do not travel on organized tours and book reasonable priced flights through the internet.

But this is of course beyond the comprehension of embassies staff quoted in the article above - because if they would know anything about the hassles their fellow Thai countryman are put through when traveling they would not make stupid statements like in this article in The Nation.

Maybe it is time to put embassy staff through the same visa circus every time they travel and allow only the most senior diplomats diplomatic passports - wonder how quickly their attitude and regulations would change?

And as for their comment "The embassy also warned that Thai nationals might face difficulties when applying for a Schengen visa in the future"

Why should this be the case? - they where obviously genuine tourists visiting Europe - just unlucky their visa expired the day they left Germany.

There is surely no "danger" these Thai tourists could be posing to European immigration authorities - Europe has far bigger problems with fellow European member countries to the east - entering legally without visas - and others entering illegally exploiting the social securtity system and commiting crimes in western European countries.

Two issues seem to have been into play here:

1) the visa of some of the travelers expired, so the borderguards refused them entry back into the Schengen area, forcing them to stay in the transit area). If the travelagency had prepared the trip will it would have been smart of they applied for an extra day or so. Sometimes embassies give a few extra days to the applicant: the applicant asks for 15 days and gets 20 days, leaving you with some more margen to play with. Not to be confused with the start and expiration date of a visa. A visa may be valid between April 1st and April 30th, valid for 20 days (and not a day more!) within that time frame, and the applicant may just have requested 15 days mid april. Some embassies seem to grant the exact days requested (or at times even less days, in which case you could appeal), some grant a few extra days.

2) The travel agency did commit fraud: they applied for a visa with the Belgians even though they didn't had a genuine intent to travel to Belgium, they cancelled the hotelbookings in Belgium and booked an other set of hotels elsewhere. You wonder why they would do this since the Belgians and Swedes have the highest percentage of visa declinations (see http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/723094-thais-refused-entry-to-germany-because-of-scam-says-thai-embassy/?p=7767904 ). And the German embassy -assuming Germany was the main destination- would have been the embassy to apply with. The German embassy should have offered an appointment within 15 days of the request being made and should have made a decision on the visa applications within 15 days (in individual cases to be extended up to 30 days, in exceptional cases to 60 days). If the travel agency had prepared a genuine application and applied well in advance (say 1-2 months) there should have been any issue (as in: no fraud). If they requested a few days extra there shouldn't have been a problem with expired visa's either. Single entry shouldn't have been a problem, since while staying within the Schengen area they should have been able to leave the airport since you can enter, exit and travel through any Schengen memberstate as you please, including by plane. Aslong as ofcourse you can convince they border guards that you meet the requirements of the visa.

As per the Schengen rules the travel agency should have applied at country that would be their main destination or if there was no clear main destination, at the country that would be their first stop:

Schengen Code on Visa:

Article 5

Member State competent for examining and deciding on an application

1. The Member State competent for examining and deciding on an application for a uniform visa shall be:

(a )

the Member State whose territory constitutes the sole destination of the visit(s);

(b )

if the visit includes more than one destination, the Member State whose territory constitutes the main destination of the visit(s) in terms of the length or purpose of stay; or

(c )

if no main destination can be determined, the Member State whose external border the applicant intends to cross in order to enter the territory of the Member States."

Ofcourse you do not have to apply for a visa of the Schengen country where you land first, that's quite clear, aslong as you respect article 5. But if you have your main stay or in the absensence of a main destination, your first country is Germany you may still enter through an other Schengen country: you may start off in Aachen or Cologne (Köln) but land on a Dutch or Belgian airport. Aslong as you can convince the border guards that you are heading on to Germany.

This is where the travelagency messed up, we can't blame the tourists for this, they fell victem of an incomptent or fraudelent travel agency and possibly partly due to inflexible embassy staff not granting them 1-2 days more then requested.

Having saids that, I'm looking forward to the more lenient visa rules which have been announced ( http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/715691-eu-commission-wants-more-flexible-schengen-rules/?p=7638448 ) and in the long run hopefully visa requirements for EU citizens to Thailand/ESEAN and visa requirements for Thai/ASEAN visitors to the EU (Schengen + UK) can be dropped al together.

I think anyone with a Schengen Visa has the right to land in ANY Schengen member country.

It seems rather absurdly nit-picky to not allow 'global Schengen access' just because

the visa was applied for in another Schengen country.

Either they have a valid Schengen Visa or they don't if, they do,

no matter where they first put foot in Schengen member territory,

the VISA should still be valid for ALL Schegen territory.

I suspect there is still more to this story than is stated above.

I also saw elsewhere that two Thai immigration officials have been transferred over this.

Did they take a backhander to slide some people with non-existant visas on a flight?

You indeed can land, travel and exit through any Schengen country, but you should as an applicant have made a genuine travel application and upon request of the borderguards have been able to convince them that you met the criteria set out by the Schengen Code (a visa doesn't grand you right of access, if at the border they suspect something isn't in order they may decline entry, ofcourse the traveler can protest, ask for a lawyer etc.).

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You are mixing several issues.

1.To obtain a "Tourist" Schengen Visa you are obliged to present your airline ticket and hotel reservations for your whole stay. These documents are the prerequisite for the granting of the visa. Using "dummy bookings" or fake reservations is cheating and may lead to legal repercussions. Apparently the travel agent was using this "avenue" to obtain the visa for his clients at a "friendly" embassy.

2. A sponsor is only needed for a "Visitor" Schengen visa, for visiting friends, relatives or your family - and only if you cannot provide an income statement showing that you can cover all expenses by yourself. For this visitor visa you do not have to present any airline tickets of hotel reservations.

3. It makes sense to apply for the "tourist" visa at the country of the aerodrome of entry as this is the only location where your passport and visa will be checked. For family/friends etc. visit you select the embassy of their country even when you arrive at/depart from a neighbouring country - in case the embassy and local authorities need to do additional inquiries (e.g sponsors).

From the report it appears that the Thai group obtained their visa through false documentation by the travel agent and they were lucky to just have to spend the night at FRA. It is quite understandable that the German Border Police was reluctant to allow them out of the transit area after their cheat became apparent.

The Thai Embassy in Belgium is spot on with their warning that stunts like that will have a long term effect on all the "honest" visa applicants.

Indeed. The travel agency made an ungenuince application, they almost got away with it but got caught. The question remains: why did the travelagency do this? The Belgian embassy isn't know for being very tolerant/easy so why go there for a fraudelent application ??

i would say, in oder for a thai to get a visa to europe/USA, let them show 400k in the bank for at least 3 months...

Why would you do that? That wouldn't exactly boost tourism now would it? We need to have less and less rules if possible. The less hassle for genuine travelers the better, the rules are in place due to travelers with ill intends. The less of a problem those are, the less rules we need.

Edited by Donutz
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I would not call this a scam it is an oversight by the agent who booked the flight

and i am talking first hand experience

booked a flight for my Thai wife and nephew to Germany the connecting flight

was in Amsterdam(could not get a direct one at the time) since we had to collect

our luggage and check in again with a different airline we had to walk out of the

customs area which means you entered the Netherlands to do this we had to get

an airport transfer visa. The customs acted correctly by refusing Thai nationals

to leave the airport if they are allowed to leave the airport they could just stay

and never get back on the flight.

I assume that in your case the visa simply had expired, in which case you won't be able to pass the border checkpoint anymore obviously) but had to stay in the transit area. If the visa was still valid you could have entered the Netherlands just fine. For instance, if you had a Schengen visa applied for with the italians, spent the majority of your holiday there you could also head to the Netherlands (by plane, care, on foot, ...) and spent some time there aswell. And fly out via Schiphol airport (NL) to BKK.

The Nation got it all wrong again and the Thai Embassy in Belgium doesn’t seem to have a clue what they are talking about.

This has nothing to do with a "scam" as they called it these people where obviously genuine tourists visiting several Schengen countries during their trip. They where just unlucky that they already had gone through German immigration and found out after that their plane would not be flying.

It is then up to the different regulations in different countries if they can be taken to a hotel or not or if the airport in question has a hotel in the transit area. Obviously the 14 passengers left behind where very unlucky as their visa expired after midnight on the day they traveled.

As for the "Scam" the Thai Embassy is talking about - they should check their facts before they make stupid statements like this and as well should The Nation !

The outdated requirements of Schengen and other countries in today's connected world are to blame for some of the "creativity" these travel agents have to come up with!

What is the reason that if one applies for a Schengen visa one needs to show a confirmed reservation for a flight in and out of the country?

A reservation one can only get from a travel agent - I have not used a travel agent in 15 years I book all my flights online - but maybe the people who make these rules are to old to understand what cyber age and "online" means?!

Why should I book a flight before I am sure that I will have my visa in my passport?

I had to pay a Thai travel agent 500 Baht ones to get a reservation for a visa application and then later once the visa was issued booked our flights online - if one would book fully refundable tickets online the cost is considerably higher and who wants to waste money if one can avoid it. But of course why should people who work at embassies ever worry about things like the price of a ticket after all all their bills a shouldered by the tax payer!

So what these travel agents do is they make "dummy" bookings for the visa application - then apply at embassies which are not as busy as for example the German embassy to get the Schengen visas for their clients. Once the visas are issued they then proceed with the real bookings - one can hardly call this a "scam" it is just getting around outdated regulations.

"The embassy recommended that Thai travelers apply for visa for the country where they will be landing first."

this again is uninformed advise - As for which country to apply for a visa is not up to he travel itinerary either - some visitors need sponsors who sign a letter of guaranty in their country of residence which might not be the first country the visitor flies to or why should somebody who wants to visit Salzburg in Austria fly to Vienna if the airport in Munich, Germany is much closer?

On our last trip to Schengen countries we applied for a visa at the Austrian embassy as we where invited to a wedding there and would spend most of the time sighseeing in Austria and southern Germany - taking the opportunity to visit Paris for a few days first we booked our flights to Paris and then from Paris to Munich traveling on from there by car to Salzburg which is just an hours drive.

and that's how it should be - after all the tickets and return flights for people requiring a visa are checked at check in by he airline again as they are responsible not to carry passengers without valid visas and after all European borders falling and the Schengen agreement was meant to make traveling easier and not more difficult.

Regulations though have to be brought up to the "online" age also for visitors who do not travel on organized tours and book reasonable priced flights through the internet.

But this is of course beyond the comprehension of embassies staff quoted in the article above - because if they would know anything about the hassles their fellow Thai countryman are put through when traveling they would not make stupid statements like in this article in The Nation.

Maybe it is time to put embassy staff through the same visa circus every time they travel and allow only the most senior diplomats diplomatic passports - wonder how quickly their attitude and regulations would change?

And as for their comment "The embassy also warned that Thai nationals might face difficulties when applying for a Schengen visa in the future"

Why should this be the case? - they where obviously genuine tourists visiting Europe - just unlucky their visa expired the day they left Germany.

There is surely no "danger" these Thai tourists could be posing to European immigration authorities - Europe has far bigger problems with fellow European member countries to the east - entering legally without visas - and others entering illegally exploiting the social securtity system and commiting crimes in western European countries.

Two issues seem to have been into play here:

1) the visa of some of the travelers expired, so the borderguards refused them entry back into the Schengen area, forcing them to stay in the transit area). If the travelagency had prepared the trip will it would have been smart of they applied for an extra day or so. Sometimes embassies give a few extra days to the applicant: the applicant asks for 15 days and gets 20 days, leaving you with some more margen to play with. Not to be confused with the start and expiration date of a visa. A visa may be valid between April 1st and April 30th, valid for 20 days (and not a day more!) within that time frame, and the applicant may just have requested 15 days mid april. Some embassies seem to grant the exact days requested (or at times even less days, in which case you could appeal), some grant a few extra days.

2) The travel agency did commit fraud: they applied for a visa with the Belgians even though they didn't had a genuine intent to travel to Belgium, they cancelled the hotelbookings in Belgium and booked an other set of hotels elsewhere. You wonder why they would do this since the Belgians and Swedes have the highest percentage of visa declinations (see http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/723094-thais-refused-entry-to-germany-because-of-scam-says-thai-embassy/?p=7767904 ). And the German embassy -assuming Germany was the main destination- would have been the embassy to apply with. The German embassy should have offered an appointment within 15 days of the request being made and should have made a decision on the visa applications within 15 days (in individual cases to be extended up to 30 days, in exceptional cases to 60 days). If the travel agency had prepared a genuine application and applied well in advance (say 1-2 months) there should have been any issue (as in: no fraud). If they requested a few days extra there shouldn't have been a problem with expired visa's either. Single entry shouldn't have been a problem, since while staying within the Schengen area they should have been able to leave the airport since you can enter, exit and travel through any Schengen memberstate as you please, including by plane. Aslong as ofcourse you can convince they border guards that you meet the requirements of the visa.

As per the Schengen rules the travel agency should have applied at country that would be their main destination or if there was no clear main destination, at the country that would be their first stop:

Schengen Code on Visa:

Article 5

Member State competent for examining and deciding on an application

1. The Member State competent for examining and deciding on an application for a uniform visa shall be:

(a )

the Member State whose territory constitutes the sole destination of the visit(s);

(b )

if the visit includes more than one destination, the Member State whose territory constitutes the main destination of the visit(s) in terms of the length or purpose of stay; or

(c )

if no main destination can be determined, the Member State whose external border the applicant intends to cross in order to enter the territory of the Member States."

Ofcourse you do not have to apply for a visa of the Schengen country where you land first, that's quite clear, aslong as you respect article 5. But if you have your main stay or in the absensence of a main destination, your first country is Germany you may still enter through an other Schengen country: you may start off in Aachen or Cologne (Köln) but land on a Dutch or Belgian airport. Aslong as you can convince the border guards that you are heading on to Germany.

This is where the travelagency messed up, we can't blame the tourists for this, they fell victem of an incomptent or fraudelent travel agency and possibly partly due to inflexible embassy staff not granting them 1-2 days more then requested.

Having saids that, I'm looking forward to the more lenient visa rules which have been announced ( http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/715691-eu-commission-wants-more-flexible-schengen-rules/?p=7638448 ) and in the long run hopefully visa requirements for EU citizens to Thailand/ESEAN and visa requirements for Thai/ASEAN visitors to the EU (Schengen + UK) can be dropped al together.

I think anyone with a Schengen Visa has the right to land in ANY Schengen member country.

It seems rather absurdly nit-picky to not allow 'global Schengen access' just because

the visa was applied for in another Schengen country.

Either they have a valid Schengen Visa or they don't if, they do,

no matter where they first put foot in Schengen member territory,

the VISA should still be valid for ALL Schegen territory.

I suspect there is still more to this story than is stated above.

I also saw elsewhere that two Thai immigration officials have been transferred over this.

Did they take a backhander to slide some people with non-existant visas on a flight?

You indeed can land, travel and exit through any Schengen country, but you should as an applicant have made a genuine travel application and upon request of the borderguards have been able to convince them that you met the criteria set out by the Schengen Code (a visa doesn't grand you right of access, if at the border they suspect something isn't in order they may decline entry, ofcourse the traveler can protest, ask for a lawyer etc.).
Sect 5 C lets them off the hook.

Certainly the travel agency played fast and loose, but not so much that 5 C was totally abrogated.

Still I think the issue was their visa had just expired or would before the next plane,

so they were kept in the airport transit area. A good reason to not stay till the

bleeding edge of your visa time, Planes break.

Seems the Thai immigration officials were another scam,

though some one lumped then onto this one.

Scam is a scam is a scam.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

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Shouldn't be a problem; apply for a Schengen visa at the embassy of the country where you will enter the territory.

Once IN the territory there is no problem.

Point in Frankfurt was (IMHO), the 14 Thai were on the plane and left the territory by passing the Schengen Immigration (no man's land).

When they wanted to return into the territory, they couldn't.

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These people were treated NO differently from anyone else. If you don't have a visa to enter the country (Germany in this case) then you don't get to leave the airport. It's not hard to understand if you put your faux outrage to one side for a moment.

Tatsujin you are totally WRONG.

The people in question HAD visas, they had Schengen visas that cover Germany, the argument is that the Thai travel agencies that got the visas (allegedly) exploited a less-than-legal loophole in order to get the visa.

Edited by technologybytes
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Wives of EU citizens do not apply for "tourist" visa, so flight itinerary is of no concern. My wife got a "visitor" Schengen Visa valid for 3 years until 2017 - of course the 90/180 days limitations still apply, it is not a residence permit.

You think your experience applies to all ??

The statement "Wives of EU citizens do not apply for "tourist" visa" assumes that all EU menbers wives are the same nationality. And are British people not EU members ? They certainly don't get their wives to apply for a 3 year shengen visa for a trip to the UK, they would not even get in.

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These people were treated NO differently from anyone else. If you don't have a visa to enter the country (Germany in this case) then you don't get to leave the airport. It's not hard to understand if you put your faux outrage to one side for a moment.

Tatsujin you are totally WRONG.

The people in question HAD visas, they had Schengen visas that cover Germany, the argument is that the Thai travel agencies that got the visas (allegedly) exploited a less-than-legal loophole in order to get the visa.

And as I understood it those visas were cancelled (as they had been "illegally" obtained) therefore no valid visa for that country, no leaving the airport.

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Wives of EU citizens do not apply for "tourist" visa, so flight itinerary is of no concern. My wife got a "visitor" Schengen Visa valid for 3 years until 2017 - of course the 90/180 days limitations still apply, it is not a residence permit.

You think your experience applies to all ??

The statement "Wives of EU citizens do not apply for "tourist" visa" assumes that all EU menbers wives are the same nationality. And are British people not EU members ? They certainly don't get their wives to apply for a 3 year shengen visa for a trip to the UK, they would not even get in.

A. No it doesn´t.

B. My mistake, it should have read "Schengen-citizens". The rest stands. There is no requirement for wives of aforementioned citizens to produce hotel bookings and flight tickets, they are not tourists. And that was the reason why I replied to that post.

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These people were treated NO differently from anyone else. If you don't have a visa to enter the country (Germany in this case) then you don't get to leave the airport. It's not hard to understand if you put your faux outrage to one side for a moment.

Tatsujin you are totally WRONG.

The people in question HAD visas, they had Schengen visas that cover Germany, the argument is that the Thai travel agencies that got the visas (allegedly) exploited a less-than-legal loophole in order to get the visa.

And as I understood it those visas were cancelled (as they had been "illegally" obtained) therefore no valid visa for that country, no leaving the airport.

Exactly. They obtained their visa by deliberately making false statements with "dummy" hotel reservations and airline tickets, although they were fully aware - they all had to sign a document warning of them of the consequences - and it was not a "less than legal loophole", it was fraud - plain and simple.

It seems that when they tried to get permission to leave the transit area in FRA their "scam" was discovered and the origin of their visas traced back to Belgium. And it was the Belgian authorities that contacted the Thai Embassy in Brussels in this affair which in return made that ominous statement.

While the Belgian Embassy in Bangkok appears to be rather restrictive with individual visa applicants, using them nevertheless for issuing group tourist visa points to the possibility that the travel agent in question has an accomplice in Belgium willing to provide highly plausible fake hotel reservations. For the required airline tickets they simply use the more expensive "fully refundable on cancellation" ones.

It is incidents like this one that make sure that Thailand continues to remain on the list of those countries that require visa to travel abroad to most destinations.

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These people were treated NO differently from anyone else. If you don't have a visa to enter the country (Germany in this case) then you don't get to leave the airport. It's not hard to understand if you put your faux outrage to one side for a moment.

Tatsujin you are totally WRONG.

The people in question HAD visas, they had Schengen visas that cover Germany, the argument is that the Thai travel agencies that got the visas (allegedly) exploited a less-than-legal loophole in order to get the visa.

I doubt very much that the Germans would have let in without valid visas. Remember the Egyptians who fled murder and mayhem and were left to rot in the departure lounge. Some third countries, including the US, were wiling to issue some of them visas and pleaded with the Germans to let those ones in while they processes the paperwork. No dice. The visas had to brought to the departure lounge a couple of weeks later.

This is just an excuse probably made up by the Thai consulate because they got flak for not helping, not that there was anything they could do.

The German embassy in Bangkok is utterly obnoxious about issuing Schengen visas. You can read in another thread about how systematically denied full freedom of movement rights to Thai wives of EU citizens and even removed asterixes from the official EU forms to force them to answer questions they are not allowed to ask under EU directives. This was only corrected after several complaints to Berlin who after a couple of years admitted to an "honest mistake".

Finally , I am sure Thais are not the only nationality that games the rules. If they were applied consistently by embassies andthe embassies didn't game the rules too, as the Germans did, there would be no problem.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

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Many of the Schengen embassies now refuse to allow family members of EU citizens to apply directly to the embassies and force them to pay fees in direct violation of the EU directive. Breaking the law is OK for the Schengen governments. I am glad the UK is not a part of that nonsense. Mrs Arkady has 10 year UK and US visas. If UK was in Schengen she would have to get new visa every year.

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The best we can do though is:

- Inform fellow people with foreign (Thai) friends, family etc. about their rights under the Schengen Visum Code. Common violations being

--- Directing people to a service provider who handles part of (just the reservation) of most of (taking in the application and forwarding it to the embassy) and asking a service charge for these "services" . That would be perfectly fine if people chose entirely volunairy and well informed between applying at the embassy themselves without any third party being involved and using third party services (which may benefit some applicants).

--- Not granting an appointment within 2 weeks of requesting one, few embassies even mention this deadline so when it's peak season they can tell people that in the comming 2-3 weeks they are fully booked... It's a pity that although embassies are obligated to abide the Visa Code (which they don't always do...) , that they don't have to list a summary of the most essential/useful rights of applicants. I'd think mentioning the maximum of 2 weeks for an application appointment should be mandatory.

--- As above: not mentioning the maximum decision time (15 days, in individual cases 30 days, in rare cases 60 days).

--- Poor or no information regarding applying as a family member of an EU/EEA national: granting the visa free of charge, swiftly and with minimum hassle. Or still demanding all sorts of documents (flight tickets, evidence that the marriage has been registered in the home country, various fancy stamps by various authorities etc. ).

- Complain to your own authorities (ministry of foreign affairs), the embassy in question (I wrote to several: The Swedes, Danes, French, Spaniards , FIns and a few others, only a few replied and even less took action: only the Belgians and Fins did).. Contact the EU's Commission representatives abroad in Thailand, I found their response more useful, they told me they were going to look into it. They had a meeting regarding Schengen policies last April and the EU representative of Thailand would bring these violations up. Don't know if it concerned a Thai wide or international (EU) meeting. But reaching authorities higher up the chain seem more fruitful then embassies who for various reasons do not execute the EU directives correctly...

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