Dazinoz Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 HI All, I always fill my LPG tank to the maximum, I find you can get between 5 and 10 liters more into the tank after the pump says full, is this likely to lead to a problem, this I do on long journeys to save to many fuel stops. To date we have owned a Suzuki Caribean, A Jeep Cherokee and two 4 liter Wranglers with no engine problems, although The Suzuki and on one occasion the first Wrangler refused to switch back to petrol, both faults easily fixed. No overheating problems, engine oil stays clean, oil pressure reads ok. The Cherokee and the latest Wrangler have a valve saver fluid container fitted. On long runs we get app 6.5 to 7 kilometers per liter at 1900 revs 90 to 100 kph. Tom How do you do that? It is a pressure based system and operated by the attendant, yes I'd say it is dangerous, you're putting a lot more PSI on the tank that way as the LP (liquid propane) has to have room for expansion into a gas to flow through the system. They should not be able to override the pressure limits set on the pump. Its a manual pressure release valve, something what was always done in the early days of filling a LPG tank. it allows you to fill the tank a few liters more, without putting more PSI in the tank. LPG stays liquified under low pressure, does not need "room for expansion". It flows in liquid form towards the expansion unit where it turns in a gaseous state or with newer systems its getting injected in a liquified state into the air intake manifold. If this manual valve is at the top of your tank, then you could fill it up to 100% in some cases , if not opening that valve, the tank can only filled with 60% before the pressure would be so much increased that the pump reached its maximum. ( 45 PSI) some pumps even pump under lower pressure... In the case of the OP, my guess he's filling at a low pump pressure station and he 's opening this valve. in any normal case this valve is placed at a point that you can not overfill your tank. ( at 80% level physical placed ) Sorry but LPG (Butane and Propane) cylinders DO need room for expansion Yes the LPG is mostly in liquid form with a vapour space. If the cylinder is heated the liquid expands just like any liquid does and thus has room with the expansion space. A liquid can not be compressed there for if cylinder was full to maximum and was heated the only way for it to go is out. Even Liquid draw cylinders have a vapour space but a tube goes to the bottom to ensure liquid is drawn off. Again this is purely for safety and not how the system it is in work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I have been on gas in various different cars since being here and I have never had any issues at all, however its worth noting that the gas runs much hotter than petrol and an engine with 200,000 kms already will have wear, so its likely that it would/could cause valve seat issues quite quickly IMHO but I am not a mechanic this is only information I have learned from others. old non injection systems are sill sold and if the engine is 3 litres or up then one of those systems would be fine, still about 30, 000 baht here in Rayong and I can highly recommend the now massive garage who has grown his very good Thai business over the last 5 years !! or injection systems which are much smoother and start at 30k baht up dependent on engine size, I currently have an NGV car 150 baht to fill it, about 150 kms full tank, silly silly money to run, came factory fitted! As to your return on investment if you plan to keep the car for a good few more years maybe worth it. just my tuppence worth good luck and all the systems are now very very safe and tested yearly not like it used to be.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnikaIII Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 In my observation, IT EXPLODES ! far too often in this country. Sorry, at first I thought the question was referring to Lazy Pattaya Girl. Ahh well. Anyway they all explode, girls from anywhere in Thailand, when you have a disagreement about money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) HI All, I always fill my LPG tank to the maximum, I find you can get between 5 and 10 liters more into the tank after the pump says full, is this likely to lead to a problem, this I do on long journeys to save to many fuel stops. To date we have owned a Suzuki Caribean, A Jeep Cherokee and two 4 liter Wranglers with no engine problems, although The Suzuki and on one occasion the first Wrangler refused to switch back to petrol, both faults easily fixed. No overheating problems, engine oil stays clean, oil pressure reads ok. The Cherokee and the latest Wrangler have a valve saver fluid container fitted. On long runs we get app 6.5 to 7 kilometers per liter at 1900 revs 90 to 100 kph. Tom How do you do that? It is a pressure based system and operated by the attendant, yes I'd say it is dangerous, you're putting a lot more PSI on the tank that way as the LP (liquid propane) has to have room for expansion into a gas to flow through the system. They should not be able to override the pressure limits set on the pump. Its a manual pressure release valve, something what was always done in the early days of filling a LPG tank. it allows you to fill the tank a few liters more, without putting more PSI in the tank. LPG stays liquified under low pressure, does not need "room for expansion". It flows in liquid form towards the expansion unit where it turns in a gaseous state or with newer systems its getting injected in a liquified state into the air intake manifold. If this manual valve is at the top of your tank, then you could fill it up to 100% in some cases , if not opening that valve, the tank can only filled with 60% before the pressure would be so much increased that the pump reached its maximum. ( 45 PSI) some pumps even pump under lower pressure... In the case of the OP, my guess he's filling at a low pump pressure station and he 's opening this valve. in any normal case this valve is placed at a point that you can not overfill your tank. ( at 80% level physical placed ) Yeah in case you haven't been reading in full I know all that but the attendant shouldn't be doing that and besides LP does expand when the pressure is relieved, that's how it works, Dazinos gave a very good, comprehensive explanation and if you relieve the pressure to allow for more fuel in the tank, in actuality you are putting even more pressure on the tank then with a closed system, as stated, it's very dangerous.. Edited May 8, 2014 by WarpSpeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimbo2 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Hello sawadee1947 I am a fully qualified LPG (Gas Engineer) I have read the replies to your question and see the normal response from the "Arm Chair Experts". If you want "Real Answers" to your question you are welcome to email me at: [email protected] Rgds Gimbo2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Who's afraid of cargas. Sure, the old systems can cause problems if ill maintained or used with cooking gas. Fools! LPG these days is very safe. Modern units work by injection system and are as powerfull as petrol engines. Only problem is you must have patrol to start up, which wasn't necessary with old gas drum systems (in not too cold climates). New injection systems come from Italy, country famous for producing LPG car systems. Thailand has strict rules on building in of LPG and your car needs a new certification. Price about 40,000. or more Baht and my Vigo 2.7 patrol engine does 7 km to the liter out of the city. So that is about 2 Baht something per km. On patrol that would cost me double and maybe it is only 1 baht gain compaired to diesel. So count your profit. Sorry to inform you... LPG is cooking gas.... ( mixture of Propane and Butane ) CNG = compressed natural gas ( Methane = Biogas ) I'll give you this one, I couldn't be bothered. Seems uninformed and a potential conflict, not worth the energy. Edited May 8, 2014 by WarpSpeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post WarpSpeed Posted May 8, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Hello sawadee1947 I am a fully qualified LPG (Gas Engineer) I have read the replies to your question and see the normal response from the "Arm Chair Experts". If you want "Real Answers" to your question you are welcome to email me at: [email protected] Rgds Gimbo2 Are you suggesting there's no qualified or correctly informative info posted here? Only yours? Which BTW you didn't give, you just posted an email? So, is that so no one can dispute or agree with your position? This is an information forum, if you've some counter advice then post it openly, that's the forums purpose, your info is not top secret to anyone but it may be open for debate.. Believe it, there has been more then enough "experts" posting rubbish, so a committee of informed opinions (in some cases not so, which is the point of open discussion) is the best way to elucidate and decide what is best. Edited May 8, 2014 by WarpSpeed 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kovaltech Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 HI All, I always fill my LPG tank to the maximum, I find you can get between 5 and 10 liters more into the tank after the pump says full, is this likely to lead to a problem, this I do on long journeys to save to many fuel stops. To date we have owned a Suzuki Caribean, A Jeep Cherokee and two 4 liter Wranglers with no engine problems, although The Suzuki and on one occasion the first Wrangler refused to switch back to petrol, both faults easily fixed. No overheating problems, engine oil stays clean, oil pressure reads ok. The Cherokee and the latest Wrangler have a valve saver fluid container fitted. On long runs we get app 6.5 to 7 kilometers per liter at 1900 revs 90 to 100 kph. Tom How do you do that? It is a pressure based system and operated by the attendant, yes I'd say it is dangerous, you're putting a lot more PSI on the tank that way as the LP (liquid propane) has to have room for expansion into a gas to flow through the system. They should not be able to override the pressure limits set on the pump. Its a manual pressure release valve, something what was always done in the early days of filling a LPG tank. it allows you to fill the tank a few liters more, without putting more PSI in the tank. LPG stays liquified under low pressure, does not need "room for expansion". It flows in liquid form towards the expansion unit where it turns in a gaseous state or with newer systems its getting injected in a liquified state into the air intake manifold. If this manual valve is at the top of your tank, then you could fill it up to 100% in some cases , if not opening that valve, the tank can only filled with 60% before the pressure would be so much increased that the pump reached its maximum. ( 45 PSI) some pumps even pump under lower pressure... In the case of the OP, my guess he's filling at a low pump pressure station and he 's opening this valve. in any normal case this valve is placed at a point that you can not overfill your tank. ( at 80% level physical placed ) Sorry but LPG (Butane and Propane) cylinders DO need room for expansion Yes the LPG is mostly in liquid form with a vapour space. If the cylinder is heated the liquid expands just like any liquid does and thus has room with the expansion space. A liquid can not be compressed there for if cylinder was full to maximum and was heated the only way for it to go is out. Even Liquid draw cylinders have a vapour space but a tube goes to the bottom to ensure liquid is drawn off. Again this is purely for safety and not how the system it is in work. Sorry, not all liquids do expand when heated... water does expand when getting cold ;-) Yes a tube gets to the bottom, otherwise you would only get gas ;-) ( same as any ordinary propane tank ) As i stated earlier, the valve ( actually a filling valve ) ought to be installed at the 80% level mark There is an indicator line drawn on the tank to show the correct inclination to install that tank. Changing the inclination of the tank would give two results, 1 : yes a bit more you can put in the tank 2: you will not be able to empty the tank completely since the tube goes with the inclination... The safety-overpressure valve is exactly there to do what's been described above... Overpressure ? blow off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPI Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I've used LPG for over 20 years in Oz, mainly in V8's. It's a more efficient fuel that commercial cooking gas (propane) by more than 10%. The price difference is what's important as when the price of gas gets to 2/3 of the price of petrol all of the advantages are gone (less MPG with LPG). If your car has an old engine or it's well run in then you shouldn't have valve problems, this is the only real problem you could have! In my experience the only way you could have a fire in the engine bay is by loose or broken connections, maintenance solves that problem! Good luck with the conversion, you'll never have to change the oil and your motor will be good for 500,000 miles. On top of that you'll recover your installation costs in about 18 months and after that it's all "jam". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugocnx Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Who's afraid of cargas. Sure, the old systems can cause problems if ill maintained or used with cooking gas. Fools! LPG these days is very safe. Modern units work by injection system and are as powerfull as petrol engines. Only problem is you must have patrol to start up, which wasn't necessary with old gas drum systems (in not too cold climates). New injection systems come from Italy, country famous for producing LPG car systems. Thailand has strict rules on building in of LPG and your car needs a new certification. Price about 40,000. or more Baht and my Vigo 2.7 patrol engine does 7 km to the liter out of the city. So that is about 2 Baht something per km. On patrol that would cost me double and maybe it is only 1 baht gain compaired to diesel. So count your profit. Sorry to inform you... LPG is cooking gas.... ( mixture of Propane and Butane ) CNG = compressed natural gas ( Methane = Biogas ) Wrong. Cng is another gas system. Let's call it earth gas...wherever they get it from. LPG has for decades been the alternative power supply for cars, being a by product of oil refinary. So google on my friend. And Warpspeed....LMAO Edited May 8, 2014 by hugocnx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazinoz Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Well you seem to be the expert. I guess my 23 years in a refinery dealing with this every day has taught me nothing. I will leave everyone to listen to the expert. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugocnx Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Depends on the job you had there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) How do you do that? It is a pressure based system and operated by the attendant, yes I'd say it is dangerous, you're putting a lot more PSI on the tank that way as the LP (liquid propane) has to have room for expansion into a gas to flow through the system. They should not be able to override the pressure limits set on the pump. Its a manual pressure release valve, something what was always done in the early days of filling a LPG tank. it allows you to fill the tank a few liters more, without putting more PSI in the tank. LPG stays liquified under low pressure, does not need "room for expansion". It flows in liquid form towards the expansion unit where it turns in a gaseous state or with newer systems its getting injected in a liquified state into the air intake manifold. If this manual valve is at the top of your tank, then you could fill it up to 100% in some cases , if not opening that valve, the tank can only filled with 60% before the pressure would be so much increased that the pump reached its maximum. ( 45 PSI) some pumps even pump under lower pressure... In the case of the OP, my guess he's filling at a low pump pressure station and he 's opening this valve. in any normal case this valve is placed at a point that you can not overfill your tank. ( at 80% level physical placed ) Sorry but LPG (Butane and Propane) cylinders DO need room for expansion Yes the LPG is mostly in liquid form with a vapour space. If the cylinder is heated the liquid expands just like any liquid does and thus has room with the expansion space. A liquid can not be compressed there for if cylinder was full to maximum and was heated the only way for it to go is out. Even Liquid draw cylinders have a vapour space but a tube goes to the bottom to ensure liquid is drawn off. Again this is purely for safety and not how the system it is in work. Sorry, not all liquids do expand when heated... water does expand when getting cold ;-) Yes a tube gets to the bottom, otherwise you would only get gas ;-) ( same as any ordinary propane tank ) As i stated earlier, the valve ( actually a filling valve ) ought to be installed at the 80% level mark There is an indicator line drawn on the tank to show the correct inclination to install that tank. Changing the inclination of the tank would give two results, 1 : yes a bit more you can put in the tank 2: you will not be able to empty the tank completely since the tube goes with the inclination... The safety-overpressure valve is exactly there to do what's been described above... Overpressure ? blow off... Water also expands when it gets to a boiling point in the form of guess what? A gas, and if contained but not safely, while hot that expansion will serve as a bomb. LPG acts similarly but at lower temps, If the over-fill valve is beneath liquid level it is virtually useless as while liquids ARE minutely compressible not all compress the same amount, and some like hydraulic fluids virtually nil, there is no way for the valve to expel the pressurized gas without forcing out more liquid and compounding the problem exponentially as Dazinoz stated.. Edited May 8, 2014 by WarpSpeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I've used LPG for over 20 years in Oz, mainly in V8's. It's a more efficient fuel that commercial cooking gas (propane) by more than 10%. The price difference is what's important as when the price of gas gets to 2/3 of the price of petrol all of the advantages are gone (less MPG with LPG). If your car has an old engine or it's well run in then you shouldn't have valve problems, this is the only real problem you could have! In my experience the only way you could have a fire in the engine bay is by loose or broken connections, maintenance solves that problem! Good luck with the conversion, you'll never have to change the oil and your motor will be good for 500,000 miles. On top of that you'll recover your installation costs in about 18 months and after that it's all "jam". So besides being wrong with the differences of LP and LPG? (There is none BTW except a sales pitch by the industry to account for higher prices and some foo... Sorry.....People fall for it hook line and sinker) How do you not change your oil for 500,000 ridiculous miles? Curious how do you account for viscosity loss when LP runs hotter then gasoline? I'd not want to buy a used car from you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazinoz Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Depends on the job you had there. I worked in the plant for 23 years making all forms of fuel including Propane and Butane. While I don't claim to know how car systems work I do know about the properties and safety aspects of LPG and storage bottles. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugocnx Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I have never seen my temp meter go up high. 55, meter broke. No sir, bolan in your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Who's afraid of cargas. Sure, the old systems can cause problems if ill maintained or used with cooking gas. Fools! LPG these days is very safe. Modern units work by injection system and are as powerfull as petrol engines. Only problem is you must have patrol to start up, which wasn't necessary with old gas drum systems (in not too cold climates). New injection systems come from Italy, country famous for producing LPG car systems. Thailand has strict rules on building in of LPG and your car needs a new certification. Price about 40,000. or more Baht and my Vigo 2.7 patrol engine does 7 km to the liter out of the city. So that is about 2 Baht something per km. On patrol that would cost me double and maybe it is only 1 baht gain compaired to diesel. So count your profit. Sorry to inform you... LPG is cooking gas.... ( mixture of Propane and Butane ) CNG = compressed natural gas ( Methane = Biogas ) Wrong. Cng is another gas system. Let's call it earth gas...wherever they get it from. LPG has for decades been the alternative power supply for cars, being a by product of oil refinary. So google on my friend. And Warpspeed....LMAO Earth gas?? That comes from eating to many beans! NG is the byproduct of dying organisms and bio matter, LP comes from oil refining and both are "earth gases".. Edited May 8, 2014 by WarpSpeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I have never seen my temp meter go up high. 55, meter broke. No sir, bolan in your head. Ermm more confusion.. You have an OIL temp gauge is it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugocnx Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nithisa78 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I like the dual fuel capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I like the dual fuel capacity. Yep, this is the way to go.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Whatever Brilliant repartee.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaveh Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 LPG's best choice but I don't know much about it in Thailand. and for explosion, it's the nature of lpg unfortunately! but I know there are high-tech regulators out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangebrew Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 You would be better off using bio fuel with little effort can save huge amounts on fuel. Just need place to convert to useable fuel. And must run on diesel, Downside is exhaust smells like food being cooked or in my case Mickey D's french fries lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKJASE Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 we recently converted our Chevrolet Optra 1.8 to LPG for 31,000B here in hua hin and are very pleased with the results so far we run a Stag 4 Plus system, with 48 litre Metal Mate doughnut tank so far, including a little bit of benzine that the car needs when it starts, we have driven 5980 km and it has cost us 9520 baht so 1km is costing us 1.59 Baht this has been about a 50 : 50 mix of motorway and town driving on the motorway we have been getting nearly 1 km costing 1 baht (which is about the same economy as our honda scoopy motorbike!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjmansions Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I have two cars here in Thailand and both are fitted with LPG and saves a bloody fortune although had to have valves changed on Yaris at cost of 9000 baht but that is because garage that fitted it put the system to fuel economy and was not letting enough fuel into the system was quite sluggish for a 1.5i Since had it altered very nippy and had no problems I read in earlier comments that they blow up but Thai go to the expense of fitting LPG enjoy the savings but never get is serviced again or not often enough similar to when they buy a house most expensive thing they will ever purchase but never see's a coat of paint after they bought it I recently went to Mukdahan in Laos from Ratchaburi on Myanmar border and cost 700 baht each way and for that got 7 big bottles of water free so bargain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 we recently converted our Chevrolet Optra 1.8 to LPG for 31,000B here in hua hin and are very pleased with the results so far we run a Stag 4 Plus system, with 48 litre Metal Mate doughnut tank so far, including a little bit of benzine that the car needs when it starts, we have driven 5980 km and it has cost us 9520 baht so 1km is costing us 1.59 Baht this has been about a 50 : 50 mix of motorway and town driving on the motorway we have been getting nearly 1 km costing 1 baht (which is about the same economy as our honda scoopy motorbike!) Proper use should utilize more benzine then just for starting.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technologybytes Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I installed LPG in my Volvo 940 about 15 months ago, I do a lot of KM (55,000 since installing) and it saves me a heck of a lot of money. I went for the injection system, it cost 27,000 baht fitted by Energy Reform. In my opinion, and those of anyone who has driven my car, it runs identical on both petrol and LPG, except LPG is less than half the running cost. I was concerned about safety, my tank is in the trunk and I noticed that in every country that I checked insurance premiums DO NOT increase for LPG so if you ask me that's definitive proof that it's no less safe if installed correctly. Really the only downside is the space the tank takes and the extra weight. Dual Fuel... yes but trust me, once you get used to paying 600 baht to fill up with LPG you will never deliberately run on petrol again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugocnx Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 we recently converted our Chevrolet Optra 1.8 to LPG for 31,000B here in hua hin and are very pleased with the results so far we run a Stag 4 Plus system, with 48 litre Metal Mate doughnut tank so far, including a little bit of benzine that the car needs when it starts, we have driven 5980 km and it has cost us 9520 baht so 1km is costing us 1.59 Baht this has been about a 50 : 50 mix of motorway and town driving on the motorway we have been getting nearly 1 km costing 1 baht (which is about the same economy as our honda scoopy motorbike!) Proper use should utilize more benzine then just for starting.. LOL, he just won't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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