Final crackdown for border runners - New strict Immigration regulation in force from today

[ukrules]

Funny how those 50+ year old pompous "retirees" flood these crackdown threads with their schadenfreunde BS. What kind of retirement age is 50 years old anyway? Let's put it to 65 years like in the West and you hypocrites would start squealing like pigs about how unfair it is! You guys would be back to the regular visa runs...

They don't seem realise that the 50 year old retirement age is not set in stone and any change which could happen at any time probably wouldn't be 'grandfathered' in to those who are already on the scheme. What do the holders of the 'elite' cards get these days ?

The first we would hear about a retirement visa restriction age change would be when someone is refused their extension and given 7 days to leave the country as is standard procedure.

[Nautilus05]

All the socialist-minded backpackers must now become ruthless capitalists!!! Money will solve many problems. This law enforced will get more money from people who overstay. 500 a day is good income. watch that fine go to 1,000 a day. Definitely the max of 20k is way too low. I predict that will go to 100k.

Let's play devil's advocate here. I think the piddly sum of 800k for a retirement VISA is way too low. That's only about $28k USD, which is nothing. Considering most countries require proof of several million USD before granting residency, I think it's about due time Thailand raised its requirements to 30 million baht for retirement VISA.

I'm getting tired of watching these poor, old schmucks in their wife beaters and shorts, packing their Chang beer around, who obviously don't spend more than their 25,000 THB/month pension here. Let's get rid of them I say!

[ukrules]

All the socialist-minded backpackers must now become ruthless capitalists!!! Money will solve many problems. This law enforced will get more money from people who overstay. 500 a day is good income. watch that fine go to 1,000 a day. Definitely the max of 20k is way too low. I predict that will go to 100k.

Let's play devil's advocate here. I think the piddly sum of 800k for a retirement VISA is way too low. That's only about $28k USD, which is nothing. Considering most countries require proof of several million USD before granting residency, I think it's about due time Thailand raised its requirements to 30 million baht for retirement VISA.

I'm getting tired of watching these poor, old schmucks in their wife beaters and shorts, packing their Chang beer around, who obviously don't spend more than their 25,000 THB/month pension here. Let's get rid of them I say!

The Thai retirement visa is just a glorified one year (hence temporary) tourist visa.

[wolf5370]

All the socialist-minded backpackers must now become ruthless capitalists!!! Money will solve many problems. This law enforced will get more money from people who overstay. 500 a day is good income. watch that fine go to 1,000 a day. Definitely the max of 20k is way too low. I predict that will go to 100k.

Let's play devil's advocate here. I think the piddly sum of 800k for a retirement VISA is way too low. That's only about $28k USD, which is nothing. Considering most countries require proof of several million USD before granting residency, I think it's about due time Thailand raised its requirements to 30 million baht for retirement VISA.

I'm getting tired of watching these poor, old schmucks in their wife beaters and shorts, packing their Chang beer around, who obviously don't spend more than their 25,000 THB/month pension here. Let's get rid of them I say!

Ignorance and bigotry all in four lines - gee your mum must be proud!

Just how much money does a Thai married to a Brit in the Uk need to be able to stay? Erm nothing.

If you are so tired of seeing people older than you happy, but perhaps poorer than you think you are, then maybe its you who should leave - they are not worried about you, so it's your problem.

[Tanis]

All the socialist-minded backpackers must now become ruthless capitalists!!! Money will solve many problems. This law enforced will get more money from people who overstay. 500 a day is good income. watch that fine go to 1,000 a day. Definitely the max of 20k is way too low. I predict that will go to 100k.

Let's play devil's advocate here. I think the piddly sum of 800k for a retirement VISA is way too low. That's only about $28k USD, which is nothing. Considering most countries require proof of several million USD before granting residency, I think it's about due time Thailand raised its requirements to 30 million baht for retirement VISA.

I'm getting tired of watching these poor, old schmucks in their wife beaters and shorts, packing their Chang beer around, who obviously don't spend more than their 25,000 THB/month pension here. Let's get rid of them I say!

Hell you can buy a GreenCard for 500,000 usd. Sure let's play devil's advocate for a moment but I am afraid that your logic is about to go up in smoke. Who in their right mind truely believes that a retirement visa to a third world country should cost 1 million usd?

You must invest $1,000,000, or at least $500,000 in a targeted employment area (high unemployment or rural area). In return, USCIS may grant conditional permanent residence to the individual.

http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-job/green-card-through-investment

Edited May 11, 2014 by Tanis

[Nautilus05]

If you are so tired of seeing people older than you happy, but perhaps poorer than you think you are, then maybe its you who should leave - they are not worried about you, so it's your problem.

Ummm, I think you missed the first sentence where it said I was playing devil's advocate. I could personally care less, and no, I don't actually want to see retirement VISA regulations get stricter.

However, I do find it absolutely dispicable how many people in this thread are dancing for glee at the misfortunate of many. These new regulations don't affect me, but that's beside the point. If the shoe was on the other foot, and the retirement VISA got put up to 30mm THB, I bet all the people dancing for glee would instantly change to absolute silence and outrage. And don't think it can't or won't happen. Again, 800k THB is nothing compared to what other countries require.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Nautilus05

[Tanis]

If you are so tired of seeing people older than you happy, but perhaps poorer than you think you are, then maybe its you who should leave - they are not worried about you, so it's your problem.

However, I do find it absolutely dispicable how many people in this thread are dancing for glee at the misfortunate of many. These new regulations don't affect me, but that's beside the point. If the shoe was on the other foot, and the retirement VISA got put up to 30mm THB, I bet all the people dancing for glee would instantly change to absolute silence and outrage. And don't think it can't or won't happen. Again, 800k THB is nothing compared to what other countries require.

I feel ya m8 but the example that you used is horrible. Sooner or later the shoe is bound to be on the other foot and these poor fools who been gleeful about the misfortunes of others will have a taste of their own medicine

[Nautilus05]

Hell you can buy a GreenCard for 500,000 usd. Sure let's play devil's advocate for a moment but I am afraid that your logic is about to go up in smoke. Who in their right mind truely believes that a retirement visa to a third world country should cost 1 million usd?

You may want to read the regulations a little closer, because that's not true at all. 1) has to be in an area of economic hardship, 2) you have to invest in an industry in economic hardship within that area, 3) you have to work full-time at that business to create new jobs.

It's not "here's $500k, thanks for my residency". There's a whole lot more to it than that. There was a bill on the floor years ago after the housing crisis first hit, that would have allowed Canadian retirees to say 12 months instead of 6 months/year, if they purchased a house for $600k, but it never even made it for a vote I don't think. Then I think there is one for Chinese, but that requires several million.

[Tanis]

Hell you can buy a GreenCard for 500,000 usd. Sure let's play devil's advocate for a moment but I am afraid that your logic is about to go up in smoke. Who in their right mind truely believes that a retirement visa to a third world country should cost 1 million usd?

You may want to read the regulations a little closer, because that's not true at all. 1) has to be in an area of economic hardship, 2) you have to invest in an industry in economic hardship within that area, 3) you have to work full-time at that business to create new jobs.

It's not "here's $500k, thanks for my residency". There's a whole lot more to it than that. There was a bill on the floor years ago after the housing crisis first hit, that would have allowed Canadian retirees to say 12 months instead of 6 months/year, if they purchased a house for $600k, but it never even made it for a vote I don't think. Then I think there is one for Chinese, but that requires several million.

most of the major cities could easily qualify for an economic hardship. I mean who can blame them...the dems run them. Here's an easy way of doing it: create a business (cleaning shoes for example....) hire a ceo. The ceo is in charge of the day to day operations. Pay him 80,000 usd. Hire 10 workers at 25,000 usd. Invest the remaining capital into a building/overhead expenses and voila. Welcome to America friend. Just don't forget to pay Uncle Sam every April.

[Nautilus05]

^^ You've never even run so much as a lemonade stand in your life, have you?

[KittenKong]

Funny how those 50+ year old pompous "retirees" flood these crackdown threads with their schadenfreunde BS. What kind of retirement age is 50 years old anyway? Let's put it to 65 years like in the West and you hypocrites would start squealing like pigs about how unfair it is! You guys would be back to the regular visa runs...

Some might, but if the minimum age for my retirement extension went up to 65 I would probably just go and live somewhere else.

I am not married to Thailand by any stretch of the imagination.

[Mencken]

Can you remember the song of John Lennon,,, Imagen,,, Listen to the word's,, all this is about is control and MONEY,,,,,,

Who cares about John Lennon. The Beatles were crap, he was even worse as a solo artist. He was a shitty father and husband. I can think of a few dozen other lyricists that were much more profound.

The beatles...still own 45s?

[Mencken]

The pattern seems to be that Thailand has in the last few years allowed untethered flotsam to come "live the dream" for a year or two. This means a triple in your home country, two doubles in Vientiane and then odd and sundry as one gets lucky. After the punter has knowingly exausted his options, his desire to go further afield lessens due to total uncertain reward as well as criteria he cannot or will not produce. What then occurs for the genius' is not to return.from whence they came but to do two week runners which all things considered amounts to 12 and even 10 days. Thailand saw that two weeks was harming tourism, so it put it back to 30 days. Hilarity ensued as all the dodgers flooded the borders with perpetual runners, truly a tragedy of tje commons. You have no one but yourselves to blame and TV aided that effort.

This is totally pathetic. At this point, it is pretty clear that Thailand affords these people something other countries do not, namely: cheap easily rented rooms, access to western food, for some cheap alcohol (cheap drinking out compared to outside), western toilets, air conditioning, cheap transport if needed and most importantly access to women for which none would exist at home. Some might even be sort of attractive.

Their are many other options around the world but they are dirty and dangerous. Thailand fits well on proximity to EU and UK.

Interesting how it will play out but obvious to me that Cambodia and Philippines will become new home to many. No worries ad they have zero standards and you can stay forever.

My hunch is some of this anger and bitterness is from illegal workers. Teachers have zero hope so it's back home for them. Divers can dream of Caribbean possibilities, etc...but that is not going to happen. Then there are the sketchy apartment brokers, boiler room skeez and other odd jobs.

A true monger would pack his kit and be off for more skeezy adventures. Not this lot. Glued fast Thailand. Of course, this has been fact for years.

Stop crying. It is what it is and do try and stay out of jail in Phils.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Mencken

[ukrules]

The pattern seems to be that Thailand has in the last few years allowed untethered flotsam to come "live the dream" for a year or two. This means a triple in your home country, two doubles in Vientiane and then odd and sundry as one gets lucky. After the punter has knowingly exausted his options, his desire to go further afield lessens due to total uncertain reward as well as criteria he cannot or will not produce.

Popping back over to Europe for another triple entry once a year during the summer doesn't sound too unreasonable.

I'm going to get one myself in the next couple of months.

[thaibeachlovers]

For years reading complaints about officials ,police not enforcing the laws they made ,they make a serious effort to start doing things by their book it gets even more complaining , love tv .

IMO it's a "reinterpretation" of the rule, if <for purposes other than tourism.> is the intent, nothing to do with merely enforcing an existing law. They are making it up again without any consideration for the chaos they are creating by not giving any warning period.

[thaibeachlovers]

If you are so tired of seeing people older than you happy, but perhaps poorer than you think you are, then maybe its you who should leave - they are not worried about you, so it's your problem.

Ummm, I think you missed the first sentence where it said I was playing devil's advocate. I could personally care less, and no, I don't actually want to see retirement VISA regulations get stricter.

However, I do find it absolutely dispicable how many people in this thread are dancing for glee at the misfortunate of many. These new regulations don't affect me, but that's beside the point. If the shoe was on the other foot, and the retirement VISA got put up to 30mm THB, I bet all the people dancing for glee would instantly change to absolute silence and outrage. And don't think it can't or won't happen. Again, 800k THB is nothing compared to what other countries require.

< I do find it absolutely despicable > As do I.

Too many snobs that think because THEY qualify for a "proper" visa, everyone else should, and if they don't, that makes them some sort of "scum" unworthy to tread the same ( broken ) pavement as they. Dogs in the manger comes to mind. Nothing new though, as the same selfish attitudes are not uncommon on TV over the years.

[thaibeachlovers]

People such as oil and gas and mining guys wont want to waste their valuable time off travelling to an embassy in another country then waiting for a visa just so they can have their month off. These blokes will be lost to other countries such as Cambodia and The PI who still have sane and workable visa policies. Their departure will be an enormous financial blow to Phuket.

As one of those O&G guys, I totally agree with u.

Yep...but it is not just oil and gas, Phuket, and other parts of Thailand have a good many miners also who are fly in fly out. These guys earn big money and spend heavily on their time off. Unfortunately for Thailand's economy many will now move to other countries such as the PI and Cambodia.

So what? Should I cry if they choose to go elsewhere? How does their decision to remain in Thailand or any other country my concern, or even yours?

Because any reduction in money coming into Thailand from one source will be compensated for by increasing costs in another area, which may affect you. Thai economics 101.

[ATF]

Retirement visa age is also supposed to be increased to 55. That will make things even worse!

Do you have a reliable source for this piece of information?

I can't find anything on google that supports your comment.

That is a rumour from the immigration, has been circulating for a while now. I am not sure but It used to be 55 already, they they reduced it to 50. Going back to 55 is quite possible. I am not an expert when it comes to retirement visas.

Well what is the purpose of spreading rumors? Anyone who has already got a retirement visa can't have it taken away from them even if it is changed to 55 tomorrow. All the people who got in at 50 will be locked into the system. Fact is I can't see this ED visa BS lasting for long because it's being completely abused. Hardly anyone attends classes and if it was working thousands of foreigners would be speaking fluent Thai. Which as everyone knows is not the case.

[samran]

Don't know why Thailand doesn't just charge $20-40 for 15/30 days, and cash in.

Yeah, a 30d visa for 40$ would likely solve a lot of issues. Make it an E-Visa and everybody ought to be happy.

Of course, too rational and modern, not going to happen.

Yep, can I go live in the us or uk too for $30 per month. Let's open that one up to everyone. Given that it is rational and modern and all that...

Chalk and cheese and irrelevant. UK is desirable for immigrants due to the welfare state - it costs money to the country for people staying there as they are able to claim benefits after a relatively short time - they can also apply for residency and citizenship based only on time in the country (sometimes even illegitimately so!) - USA and UK are both in the world's most wealthiest top 5 countries - none of that relates to expats living in Thailand.

Thailand requires foreign money from Visas, why else make these changes? They do nothing less than make some of the border runner move on to tourist visas instead. If visa money is the goal, then why not collect it in-country instead? 1000 baht for 3 moths tourist visa, with skim from consulate, or the same each and every month without the skim.

When the UK and USA make such changes in such a fashion, then you can start a separate thread - as it is there is no more relevancy than talking about the fact that Thai food is more expensive in LA than in Udon.

Again, self serving twaddle.

Thailand does not need money from visas. Otherwise it wouldn't be letting people in willy nilly as it has done to date, and it would be charging serious money for visas if it did it the way that the west do it - not your piddly 1900 baht or $60 for an annual extension.

Thailand gives you something you want - sunshine, no cold, a cheap lifestyle and for many, cheap access to flesh.

It also provides, and continues to provide you with established infrastructure - subsidised roads, electricity and water. Cheap hospitals filled with doctors and nurses educated on the states coin.

It may not be a welfare payment, but you get stuff from government all right. Plenty. And you reckon 1000 baht per month to turn up and enjoy it all about covers it?

Tosh.

Seriously, you need to get your hand off it.

Edited May 11, 2014 by samran

[inthepink]

If you are so tired of seeing people older than you happy, but perhaps poorer than you think you are, then maybe its you who should leave - they are not worried about you, so it's your problem.

Ummm, I think you missed the first sentence where it said I was playing devil's advocate. I could personally care less, and no, I don't actually want to see retirement VISA regulations get stricter.

However, I do find it absolutely dispicable how many people in this thread are dancing for glee at the misfortunate of many. These new regulations don't affect me, but that's beside the point. If the shoe was on the other foot, and the retirement VISA got put up to 30mm THB, I bet all the people dancing for glee would instantly change to absolute silence and outrage. And don't think it can't or won't happen. Again, 800k THB is nothing compared to what other countries require.

You're not really comparing like for like. 800k doesn't get you residency, it gets you a 1-year extension on a non-imm visa. Hardly the same thing is it?

[samran]

If you are so tired of seeing people older than you happy, but perhaps poorer than you think you are, then maybe its you who should leave - they are not worried about you, so it's your problem.

Ummm, I think you missed the first sentence where it said I was playing devil's advocate. I could personally care less, and no, I don't actually want to see retirement VISA regulations get stricter.

However, I do find it absolutely dispicable how many people in this thread are dancing for glee at the misfortunate of many. These new regulations don't affect me, but that's beside the point. If the shoe was on the other foot, and the retirement VISA got put up to 30mm THB, I bet all the people dancing for glee would instantly change to absolute silence and outrage. And don't think it can't or won't happen. Again, 800k THB is nothing compared to what other countries require.

You're not really comparing like for like. 800k doesn't get you residency, it gets you a 1-year extension on a non-imm visa. Hardly the same thing is it?

If it is the same 800k locked away in the bank. That is year in year out. It is cheap. Stay 10 years and that is $2800 per year. Peanuts.

Show me a serious country which offers a cheap form of defacto residency or let's retirees get access to PR.

Edited May 12, 2014 by ubonjoe
Removed a inflammatory comment

[Gumballl]

...

I chose Thailand as a place to stay because it is both a 1) nice place to be in; and 2) requires relatively little bureaucratic hoop-jumping. I do consider myself a long-term tourist: I do not intend to integrsocial/economicai society nor do I seek social/economic services above what a tourist would; my monthly spending is obviously above the local average. I do not own a home or a vehicle and I do not drive. Everything of significant value that I own in Thailand fits into a backpack - I know this because I pack all of it at least once a month when I go for a 3-5 day trip to some other country in the region. In a year or two I will be done and move on, maybe to another country in SEA, but likely to a country on another continent instead. And yes, I ended up staying on visa-exempt stamps because those are a nice incentive to keep me moving around and seem to fit best (both in letter and spirit) the kind of visitor that I am.

How do you support yourself in Thailand? Do you work (via the internet)?

If you are working, regardless if through the internet, you should have a work permit. That would entitle you benefits of staying in Thailand without having to do the 30-day Out/In runs.

A tourist, in most people's mind, is a short-time visitor to a location. Thailand offers multiple-entry Tourist Visas (typically 2 Visas).

You can use the first Tourist visa to get 30 days in the kingdom, of which you can then extend this by an additional 30 days (for 1900 baht, at the Immigration Dept.).

After these 60 days, you can perform the Out/In maneuver in a single day, and begin using your second Tourist visa... which can then be extended as well before it expires.

This gives a total of 120 days (approximately 4 months). How long is your vacation/holiday??

P.S. When the 120 days are up, you could always go to a neighboring country to apply for another Tourist Visa. Bingo... another 60 days!

A tourist visa is good for 60d, extendable by an additional 30d. Not 30d extendable by another 30d. That's per entry.

Thanks for the correction. But not for the condescending remark.

[ukrules]

It's interesting to see that they're already deporting people arriving by air in Phuket.

This situation is going to get ugly fast.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/725414-russian-denied-entry-at-phuket-international-airport-over-visa-crackdown/?p=7808831

[Soutpeel]

My wife and I come to Thailand every year on Non Imm O Retirees visas for 5 months every year for a long holiday. I hire a car for that period. To hire and drive it legally for over 60 days I am required to hold a Thai Driving Licence which I do. So I am a tourist with a Thai Driving Licence

Non-Imm "O" Retiree

60 days and required Thai DL - its actually 90

and strictly speaking your not a tourist - "Non-Imm "O" retiree" - your words not mine

[Soutpeel]

If you are so tired of seeing people older than you happy, but perhaps poorer than you think you are, then maybe its you who should leave - they are not worried about you, so it's your problem.

Ummm, I think you missed the first sentence where it said I was playing devil's advocate. I could personally care less, and no, I don't actually want to see retirement VISA regulations get stricter.

However, I do find it absolutely dispicable how many people in this thread are dancing for glee at the misfortunate of many. These new regulations don't affect me, but that's beside the point. If the shoe was on the other foot, and the retirement VISA got put up to 30mm THB, I bet all the people dancing for glee would instantly change to absolute silence and outrage. And don't think it can't or won't happen. Again, 800k THB is nothing compared to what other countries require.

You're not really comparing like for like. 800k doesn't get you residency, it gets you a 1-year extension on a non-imm visa. Hardly the same thing is it?

Can you show me a country that will give a foreigner (Retiree) PR for $23k ?, can you indicate a country that gives a legal retiree PR for "free" for that matter ?....most countries in the world that still even offer a place for retiree's do not offer PR to them as part of the deal. there may be one or two, if there is, it will not be many...

[chrisinth]

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Tanis, on 10 May 2014 - 18:34, said:Quote

Soutpeel, on 10 May 2014 - 16:44, said:Quote

nothing to do with being evil......the visa wavier system is intended for tourists from certain countries, not for living and working in Thailand, one suspects the 'English professors" have had a good run, now its time to pay the piper....

if you are living/working here long term do it properly and don't take the p*ss out the system and get some sort of visa...

I've worked here in Thailand for nearly seven years and these border runs have saved my bacon several times due to the incompetence of agencies and schools trying to process work permits and teacher's license. The ones that will be most affected by this dumb rule enforcement are those who are trying to work here legit. What about those who are fired by their school for whatever reason? What recourse do these teachers have other than packing up their bags and going back to their home country? I just love the double standards that Thais employ against foreigners and I love their apologists. Fortunately, I am going back to America next week.

The ones who have had their work permits cancelled still have the option of leaving the country and getting a tourist visa or, simply fly out/fly in to tide them over for an extra 30 days.

The same as they would have to do before the new rules if on an extension of stay based on their work permit. If they have a multi-entry non-O, then they have no problems.

If said teachers were working, having to do border runs to remain in the country, then they ain't doing it right in the first place.........

You are incorrect. Teachers at Bangkok University in recent times, have been required to make 15/30 land crossings, despite legitimate employment at established universities.

Please read the last line of my post; if they are doing 15/30 day border runs to maintain a work permit then they are doing it wrong, school or university, doesn't matter.

[Spoonman]

You cannot have a work permit without a visa so the 15/30 day border runs tells me that they are working illegally without a work permit.

[chrisinth]

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Well... that day has finally come.

One wonders if immigration, in their usual farsightedness, has increased the capacity of neighbouring Thai consulates to deal with the huge influx of proper visa-seekers. Of course, each consulate has the autonomy to refuse to issue visas if the crowds prove too inconvenient for them. Expect chaos on your next visa run.

You don't understand, apparently. They aren't giving tourist visas to most people now. That began about a year or more ago. If you have ever had tourist visas before - REGARDLESS or their date (could be from years ago) they are denying tourist visas. When one finally figures out all the runaround and catch-22's of this, what it really indicates, is that a faction in Thialand doesn't want anyone here who is regulaly here, any longer. From now on, it seems, tourists are to only be allowed 30 days, period.

I would like to know the source you are getting this information from. The few people that I know living here on tourist visas have been doing so for years, and remain doing so.

What you have stated above is misleading at best, completely wrong in my view.

[philthebook]

So typical of the crap through which the rest of us are having to wade. A tourist visa is good for 60d, extendable by an additional 30d. Not 30d extendable by another 30d. That's per entry.

When you get a double-entry tourist visa, you may well only get a 90d validity window (dating from the issue date of the visa). If you get such a visa and such a 90d validity in a neighboring SE Asian country, and are able to therefore execute the first entry on the first day of the validity window, and then get the 30d extension, and then exit and return on the last day of the validity window, and finally get the 30d extension on the 2nd entry, then you can be in Thailand legally for a total of 180d (not 120d).

I'm not entirely clear on exactly where you can get triple-entry visas anymore (I believe UJ has mentioned Bali), but if your object is to remain in Thailand as long as possible on that single tourist visa, and the validity window is only going to be 90d, then I don't really see how useful the triple will actually be.

Correct, btw I got a triple entry visa at Manila 3 months ago (i am a uk citizen)

[slipperylobster]

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Well... that day has finally come.

One wonders if immigration, in their usual farsightedness, has increased the capacity of neighbouring Thai consulates to deal with the huge influx of proper visa-seekers. Of course, each consulate has the autonomy to refuse to issue visas if the crowds prove too inconvenient for them. Expect chaos on your next visa run.

You don't understand, apparently. They aren't giving tourist visas to most people now.

What you have stated above is misleading at best, completely wrong in my view.

Ok guys...tell me then...who are these select few that Thailand has said are worthy of a Tourist Visa?

Do they possess some special characteristics that the rest of us just cannot perceive?

or are you saying...most everyone in the world that wants to visit Thailand will be denied...because they only want a few.

Incredible...the garbage....the insanity...the, the......the horror of an incorrect post.

Edited May 12, 2014 by slipperylobster