Guns Don't Kill People...

[LoveDaBlues]

Wow....this topic seems to come up as often as "how much does it cost to live in Thailand".

I responded a while back on a similar thread. My brother saved his own life by using a gun. No doubt about it; and no one died as a result.

Quoting stats on gun violence in America is silly. If all types of guns in America were suddenly outlawed do you think the criminals would turn them in? No. Then the bad guys would be the only ones with guns. America is just a violent place. Why is America so violent? Do the guns themselves somehow contain 'magical' powers and force the owner to become violent? I think not. America just has a high percentage of violent people. This is the real issue that must be addressed.

Canada allows it's citizens to own guns. Yet the rate of homicides in America with guns is 8 TIMES higher than that in Canada. Why? If the existence of the guns themselves is the problem than why such a disparity in the homicide rate? TripxCore is right. I've also owned guns my whole life and thankfully never had to use one. But if a bad guy(s) enters my home I'd MUCH RATHER have my .40 for protection than a silly little can of pepper spray.

Edited June 17, 2006 by LoveDaBlues

[jackr]

Wow....this topic seems to come up as often as "how much does it cost to live in Thailand".

I responded a while back on a similar thread. My brother saved his own life by using a gun. No doubt about it; and no one died as a result.

Quoting stats on gun violence in America is silly. If all types of guns in America were suddenly outlawed do you think the criminals would turn them in? No. Then the bad guys would be the only ones with guns. America is just a violent place. Why is America so violent? Do the guns themselves somehow contain 'magical' powers and force the owner to become violent? I think not. America just has a high percentage of violent people. This is the real issue that must be addressed.

Canada allows it's citizens to own guns. Yet the rate of homicides in America with guns is 8 TIMES higher than that in Canada. Why? If the existence of the guns themselves is the problem than why such a disparity in the homicide rate? TripxCore is right. I've also owned guns my whole life and thankfully never had to use one. But if a bad guy(s) enters my home I'd MUCH RATHER have my .40 for protection than a silly little can of pepper spray.

Exactly . Try popping someone who breaks into your home with the intention of doing whatever damage to you and yours in the UK though and you'll have h3ll to pay <deleted> state of affairs. I believe if someone dies on your property while up to no good in Muang Thai then it's tough titties to the baddie. That's the way it should be... none of this pc crap, although I don't know how a farang would fare if he carried out the killing?

[Cassandra]

Wow....this topic seems to come up as often as "how much does it cost to live in Thailand".

I responded a while back on a similar thread. My brother saved his own life by using a gun. No doubt about it; and no one died as a result.

Quoting stats on gun violence in America is silly. If all types of guns in America were suddenly outlawed do you think the criminals would turn them in? No. Then the bad guys would be the only ones with guns. America is just a violent place. Why is America so violent? Do the guns themselves somehow contain 'magical' powers and force the owner to become violent? I think not. America just has a high percentage of violent people. This is the real issue that must be addressed.

Canada allows it's citizens to own guns. Yet the rate of homicides in America with guns is 8 TIMES higher than that in Canada. Why? If the existence of the guns themselves is the problem than why such a disparity in the homicide rate? TripxCore is right. I've also owned guns my whole life and thankfully never had to use one. But if a bad guy(s) enters my home I'd MUCH RATHER have my .40 for protection than a silly little can of pepper spray.

One is embarrassed "quoting statistics on gun violence is silly" to have to deal with posts like these, but it does serve to point out the intellectually bereft nature of the American gun lobby.However even the NRA would hesitate to claim the root of the problem is America just has more than its share of violent people.

As a matter of fact the multiplicity of guns is a factor in the frequency of violent acts.And to deal with a complete inaccuracy :Canadian gun laws are much more restrictive than those of most US states.There is also a rising number of Americans who are tired of the lies and greed of the gun lobby.

What this poster is really saying is that rational argument doesn't come into play on this question.

[thankuverybig]

i think its all very well owning a gun,but i think in thailand they dont really like face to face confrontation.

maybe if you upset the wrong people you are more likely to get shot or stabbed in the back.

i agree that the're are some real psycho's around,the type that need to be manipulating & hurting people just to feel alive.

[LoveDaBlues]

So Canada's 'restrictive' gun laws are why Canadians don't commit homicides anywhere near the rate of the United States.

Don't kid yourself; plenty of guns in Canada.

The U.S. has a serious problem with violence of all kinds. Taking away my means of self defense is not the solution to the violence problem.

*************************************

Canada

Low Range Estimates

= 2,400,000 firearms owners

= 7,200,000 firearms

Medium Range Estimates

= 3,100,000 firearms owners

= 9,000,000 firearms

High Range Estimates

= 3,800,000 firearms owners

= 11,000,000 firearms

SOURCE: Memorandum of Agreement Respecting the Federal-Provincial Financial Agreement Addressing the Administration of the Firearms Act and Regulations Between The Government of Canada and The Government of the Province of Ontario – APPENDIX ‘A’ SERVICE DELIVERY MODELS, DISCUSSION PAPER (Version #2a) Overview, Analysis & Development of a Baseline Model, Operations Transition Planning, Canadian Firearms Centre, May 19, 1998. NOTE: This Agreement with Ontario was signed by Justice Minister Anne McLellan on December 2, 1999 and by Ontario Solicitor General David Tsubouchi on September 14, 2000

****************************************************

Gun-control advocates look at guns only as a means to harm others even though they are more often used to prevent injury. According to a 1995 study entitled “Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun” by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, published by the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology at Northwestern University School of Law, law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year.

That means that firearms are used 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to shoot with criminal intent. Of these defensive shootings, more than 200,000 are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse. About half a million times a year, a citizen carrying a gun away from home uses it in self-defense. Again, according to Kleck amd Gertz, “Citizens shoot and kill more criminals than police do every year [2,819 times versus 303].” Moreover, as George Will pointed out in an article entitled “Are We a Nation of Cowards?” in the November 15, 1993, issue of Newsweek, while police have an error rate of 11 percent when it comes to the accidental shooting of innocent civilians, the armed citizens’ error rate is only 2 percent, making them five times safer than police.

Other studies give similar results. “Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms,” by the Clinton administration’s Justice Department shows that between 1.5 and 3 million people in the United States use a firearm to defend themselves and others from criminals each year. A 1986 study by Hart Research Associates puts the upper limit at 3.2 million.

Those studies and others indicate that often the mere sight of a firearm discourages an attacker. Criminologist John Lott from the University of Florida found that 98 percent of the time when people use guns defensively, simply brandishing a firearm is sufficient to cause a criminal to break off an attack. Lott also found that in less than 2 percent of the cases is the gun fired, and three-fourths of those are warning shots.

***********************************************

Imagine that.....even Slick Willy Clinton's liberal administration shows at least 1.5 million people protecting themselves with a firearm.

But maybe you're right......just let 200,000 more women be molested......take away their right too to own a firearm.

[NovaBlue05]

Those studies and others indicate that often the mere sight of a firearm discourages an attacker.

An informal "study" by a friend of mine demonstrated that a home intruder who suddenly heard, from upstairs, the distinctive "Clack..Clack" of a shell being chambered into a pump shotgun also lost interest. You just can't replicate that with a baseball bat or golf club.

[LoveDaBlues]

Those studies and others indicate that often the mere sight of a firearm discourages an attacker.

An informal "study" by a friend of mine demonstrated that a home intruder who suddenly heard, from upstairs, the distinctive "Clack..Clack" of a shell being chambered into a pump shotgun also lost interest. You just can't replicate that with a baseball bat or golf club.

[TRIPxCORE]

Those studies and others indicate that often the mere sight of a firearm discourages an attacker.

An informal "study" by a friend of mine demonstrated that a home intruder who suddenly heard, from upstairs, the distinctive "Clack..Clack" of a shell being chambered into a pump shotgun also lost interest. You just can't replicate that with a baseball bat or golf club.

Good point NovaBlue. There is no better deterrent than a gun. The people against gun ownership have probably never been attacked in such a way that a gun might have been needed. Now I am not saying I want people to be attacked but had they been, I know they would feel different about this.

[lannarebirth]

Does anyone know if telescopic spring stell batons are availabe locally and from where? Also, is pepper spray available here. BTW I once inquired about importing a shotgun I have overeas to here. I merely needed to fill out a form and get a letter from my local police commander giving approval. I have a friend who is a retired Air Forse general and he says the importing is no big deal. I never pursued it because a) I wasn't really sure I wanted a gun here, and b ) just being able to import it does not ensure one can register it, which I never really checked out.

You are joking....please?.

So you put a shotgun in airfreight from wherever you are from- get it through security checks and with no export documentation then arrive at the freight shed at Don Muang to pick up a shotgun?.

No questions asked?.

Never ever forget that Thailand has more Air Force Generals that is has aircraft - ask around, your local tuk-tuk driver is probably a retired major. (domo).

And naturally, the local plods are just going to give you a letter saying it is quite o.k. for "Mr X" having this shooter........

Save yourself a whole load of hassle - forget it!.

I did forget it, but only because I don't like guns, and really don't want to have one. I reached this conclusion after I was assured I could get it if I wanted it. It really wasn't that hard. I never said it didn't require documentation. I only said the documentation was not hard to get. Not for me anyway. Your mileage may vary.

[Thaiboxer]

I'm an American and I owned guns in the US for several years. I used them for informal target shooting. I agree that there is a lot of violence in the US and often this is sensationalized through movies/TV. A lot of it comes down to poor education/upbringing. Years ago, guns laws were not strict at all compared to today and many people learned how to shoot. Today, the laws are very strict in some areas (like Washington DC) yet in those areas, gun crimes are skyrocketing. It seems to be a strange coincidence...shouldn't strict guns laws actually lower crime? This goes to show that guns themselves and easy access to them is not the root cause of American's gun crime...it's how Americans are being raised. Restricting or eliminating legal gun ownership in order to solve US gun crime is like chopping off the top of a weed...it will still grow. The only way to kill a weed is to pull it out by the roots. This is how America's gun problem needs to be handled.

[weary]

Exactly how would you 'pull it out by the root' though?

An informal "study" by a friend of mine demonstrated that a home intruder who suddenly heard, from upstairs, the distinctive "Clack..Clack" of a shell being chambered into a pump shotgun also lost interest. You just can't replicate that with a baseball bat or golf club.

Well... you could record the sound easy enough, and play it on your stereo. Creativity... the threat of violence is the deterrent... that, and the fear of the unknown.

Edited June 17, 2006 by weary

[GuestHouse]

What is it with Americans and Guns?

You'd have thought they'd realize, you go to live in another country where you are not allowed a gun, then that's the end of it.

Perhaps breathing in all that GSR has addled their brains.

[Sing_Sling]

The NRA is well known for its wise and measured approach, and provides thoughtful arguments against the misguided fools who believe in gun control.[/quote]

I have the same question as Guesthouse - why would you want to recreate this atmosphere of fear when you leave your country?

A simple : No.

[weary]

What is it with Americans and Guns?

You'd have thought they'd realize, you go to live in another country where you are not allowed a gun, then that's the end of it.

Perhaps breathing in all that GSR has addled their brains.

GSR = GastroSulphuricRectoplasms?

[jackr]

What is it with Americans and Guns?

You'd have thought they'd realize, you go to live in another country where you are not allowed a gun, then that's the end of it.

Perhaps breathing in all that GSR has addled their brains.

GSR = GastroSulphuricRectoplasms?

GSR - GaseousStratosphericRoosterfarts?

[NovaBlue05]

What is it with Americans and Guns?

You'd have thought they'd realize, you go to live in another country where you are not allowed a gun, then that's the end of it.

Perhaps breathing in all that GSR has addled their brains.

Is this an "Americans" with guns thread?....

[NovaBlue05]

Exactly how would you 'pull it out by the root' though?

An informal "study" by a friend of mine demonstrated that a home intruder who suddenly heard, from upstairs, the distinctive "Clack..Clack" of a shell being chambered into a pump shotgun also lost interest. You just can't replicate that with a baseball bat or golf club.

Well... you could record the sound easy enough, and play it on your stereo. Creativity... the threat of violence is the deterrent... that, and the fear of the unknown.

....And as they ascend the stairs where my family sleeps ...I respond by increasing the Bass & Treble? If they have illegally entered my home even knowing people are there....their "fear of the unknown" is gone. They mean malice. If I was at home and knew an intruder was in the house, I would not hunt them . As long as the family are upstairs with me then I let the insurance company buy me a new entertainment system or whatever the prick steals. But....and this is assuming the intruder doesn't get the jump on me because it doesnt matter whether you have a gun at that point, the prick starts up the stairs........then the first and last thing they see is a muzzle flash

[kerryk]

Americans and guns.

Americans have always had a healthy distrust of government. First it was the British Empire and that distrust transferred to their own government.

Americans have always idolized the move West and the role guns (primarily the shotgun, if the truth be told) played in that movement.

Our heroes have always been cowboys.

Although we were both born of the British Empire the US unlike Australia does not place much value on mates. America has always loved the rugged individual with the six gun.

American urban areas of late have become more like Europe calling for civilization and the elimination of guns.

I would bet a lot of dollars that most of the anti gun feelings expressed on this forum by Americans or the anti gun feelings expressed by Americans in America come from urban people.

The country folk, which are still a majority of the American population are not ready to become members of the European Union.

They may have voted for Bush but they don’t like him nor do they trust his or any other government.

When the FBI or ATF goes into the country to arrest a country boy for violating some slight restriction in American law they take the army with them. Tanks and armored personal carriers and helicopters descend on some poor farmers shack.

Chances are the farmer is well enough armed to hold them off for a week or so.

Did the farmer win? Nope. But he and his family had the satisfaction of knowing they caused the government a few million dollars to serve a warrant that would have been done for 5 GBP’s.

There is a balance of power in US government between the Executive branch, the Judicial branch and the Congressional branch.

There is also a balance of power between an armed citizenry and the police state.

When a cop comes to a home in the great American hinterland he is aware that that home is a castle and appropriately defended. He normally is a gentleman when approaching said home.

When a cop busts a house in the city he acts like a crazed storm trooper working for the UN.

I am sure that the governments of the EU and Australia and NZ are far more trustworthy than the governments of the US.

But please don’t fault the average American for wanting a gun because he has a fear of his government.

The truth be told Joe Redneck has no fear of robbers, heck he hunted wild boar with a knife when he was 12 years old.

He has a fear of George and Jeb and Al and John and the FBI and ATF and the DEA and the DIA and CIA and a hundred other alphabet agencies that want to limit his freedom and turn his country over to some UN commission or World court or European Union.

If the city folk in America succeed in disarming the country folk it won’t be to long before the country starts to look like Singapore.

I however will be happily ensconced in my Thai castle seeing America but through a glass darkly. It is no problem having a gun in Thailand. I don’t think it will ever be a problem having a gun in Thailand. Heck, wasn’t the governor of a Southern province in Thailand suggesting arming the Thais to combat the terrorists?

Edited June 17, 2006 by kerryk

[Patex]

I don't carry a purse and I am very lazy about carry along my passport and dl. My mobile phone lies the most time in the car and is annoying me to the quick if I have to take it with me. Now, in the hot, humid season, I even avoid to wear my favorite 500 000฿ - Rolex.

Thinking about marching around with 1- 2 kg's of dangerous steel is just... ridiculous.

Also, the objects surrounding yourself are affecting your mind-settings in a considerable way .

[thankuverybig]

what about stink bombs?

they used to clear me out of a room pretty quick at school.

& pee shooters,i never used to go anywhere without mine.

[NovaBlue05]

what about stink bombs?

they used to clear me out of a room pretty quick at school.

& pee shooters,i never used to go anywhere without mine.

lol....it could take weeks to clear out the odor....as opposed to a weekend job of repairing the plaster

[longway]

law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year

I'm sorry but that sounds like BS. Say 50 million gun owners in the states, that means 1 in 20 use a firearm to save themselves from a crime every year!! in their dreams maybe? does that figure include the use of firearms in movies too?

its probably too late for you guys in the US to turn back from gun ownership, but your 'stats' are pure bs.

[NovaBlue05]

law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year

its probably too late for you guys in the US to turn back from gun ownership,....

Any reason why they should?

[longway]

law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year

its probably too late for you guys in the US to turn back from gun ownership,....

Any reason why they should?

oh no no im a convert, just think i could spot a guy buying a really terrible shirt, and blow his brains out thereby preventing a heinious fashion crime. what about those fat women who buy grossly tight lycra shorts, doing the world a favour IMHO.

[NovaBlue05]

law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year

its probably too late for you guys in the US to turn back from gun ownership,....

Any reason why they should?

oh no no im a convert, just think i could spot a guy buying a really terrible shirt, and blow his brains out thereby preventing a heinious fashion crime. what about those fat women who buy grossly tight lycra shorts, doing the world a favour IMHO.

Are you under some impression that its typical for law abiding Americans to carry guns in public?

[longway]

....And as they ascend the stairs where my family sleeps ...I respond by increasing the Bass & Treble? If they have illegally entered my home even knowing people are there....their "fear of the unknown" is gone. They mean malice. If I was at home and knew an intruder was in the house, I would not hunt them . As long as the family are upstairs with me then I let the insurance company buy me a new entertainment system or whatever the prick steals. But....and this is assuming the intruder doesn't get the jump on me because it doesnt matter whether you have a gun at that point, the prick starts up the stairs........then the first and last thing they see is a muzzle flash

While your obviously deserving of a gun, I dont think arming the general population is the best way to make society a safer place.

The USA is probably fcuked as far as gun ownership goes by now, you must have 100s of millions of firearms floating around, I suppose the best thing for the average citizen to do is arm him or herself to the teeth and get ready to rumble.

I lived in Tanzania in the mid 90s for a year and there was a real gun culture developing there. On one occasion myself and a friend got into an argument with a couple of guys and once I started fighting one of them the other runs of to his pickup saying he's going to get his gun. I so my mate and I leg it to my car and try to make a get away, my little peugot 306 shuddering its way through the pot holed dirt track followed by a couple of loons who want to shoot us supposedly. Luckily I didnt live too far away and get to my gate by the time they catch us up, so with the askaris around the guys dont do anything.

On another occasion going to a party in a couple of cars, one gets stuck and they somehow get into an argument with some guy that we knew vaugely, he pulls out a gun and points it at one of my mates. My mate say Ok then go on shoot!!

I wouldnt say when going out that I was always on the look out for a gun, but I certainly didnt feel that safe. I dont think most people are fit to carry guns, you need lots of training and self discipline.

The stats you brought up speak for themselves, most gun owners are dreamers.

Lets put it in again since you went to such pains to cut it out of the last post:

law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year

I'm sorry but that sounds like BS. Say 50 million gun owners in the states, that means 1 in 20 use a firearm to save themselves from a crime every year!! in their dreams maybe? does that figure include the use of firearms in movies too?

its probably too late for you guys in the US to turn back from gun ownership, but your 'stats' are pure bs.

Dont know what the gun situation here is, but I hope it never gets as bad as the US case.

[longway]

Are you under some impression that its typical for law abiding Americans to carry guns in public?

Why do you always answer my posts with a question? Dont you have any answers?

Edited June 17, 2006 by longway

[NovaBlue05]

While your obviously deserving of a gun, I dont think arming the general population is the best way to make society a safer place.

No clue what your post is supposed to mean.

Chok Dee

[Thaiboxer]

Guns are as much a part of US culture as apple pie. Lots of countries have high rats of gun ownership, yet suffer from less gun related violence. Taking away the guns is not the answer since the criminals will have it even easier than they do now. Countries with strict or no gun ownership policies fill their citizens with propaganda making them think Americans are running around the streets shooting everybody. Often, these people know little or nothing about firearms and see them as "tools of the devil". This is so true of people in the US mass media as well. Most people in the US own/use guns responsibly but the anti-gun people want you to think otherwise and fill the news with BS stats to back up their ludicrous claims.

[lingyai]

Just compare USA and Europe and you'll have your answer.

Guns kills, no way around that. Regardless of NRA freaks would like the world to think.

Ok, what am I supposed to compare households with guns in Switzerland and amount of gun related deaths or gun related crime in Switzerland with the US?

Lets see, Switzerland has a higher number of households with guns than the US and a lower incidence of gun related deaths or crime with guns.

I think Switzerland is in Europe.

OK so I compared it, now what am I supposed to do?

Apologies if wrong, but I think the guns owned by every Swiss household are kept locked up and strictly registered by the cantons, only taken out in emergencies for national self defence.

In contrast, the USA is a far bigger country with a wide and diverse ethnic range, and unfortunately in those groups there are some whose sense of identity and security is enhanced by the use of fire-arms; whether this is due to beliefs in the rights of the individual to defend himself with weapons or simply for criminal purposes is actually a moot point, for as pointed out by MS and Cassandra, any individual with an axe to grind, or rather an automatic weapon, is naturally a far more proficient killer than a youth with a stanley knife.

In America there are many people that use guns for crime but not everyone does that. So because of the bad people then no one should be legally allowed to own them? I have one for protection and self-defense just like you said the Swiss are doing. There are a lot of crazy, deranged people in the world and nothing will keep them at bay better than having your own gun. Doesn't mean you have to use it but nothing calms down some a**hole like having one. Therefore I will continue to own one.

Ah nothing like bringing out the ol' "so you want to ban all guns" arguement. Very few people in the USA want to do this yet the NRA leadership and those like this always use this type of arguement as a scare tactic.

People should be able to own guns. With gun ownership should come responsibility to reasonably secure your hand gun as needless to say it is a dangerous weapon. Background checks for all gun sales should be mantatory (duh) yet even the NRA leadership fights this! No, background checks are not going to prevent every bad person from getting a gun but it is a start. Most of the time what is called gun control by fanatics is reasonable requirements on gun ownership and sales.

It must be said that most of the general NRA membership are fine people who use their guns safely. The NRA safety programs are also good. To bad the NRA leadership are extremeists.

Edited June 18, 2006 by lingyai