Thai Immigration: Border insecurity mounts as tourist visa abuse is targeted

[stevenl]

Immigration in most countries sometimes give passengers a "hard time" periodically, their job is to quiz and assess. You got in didn't you, stop complaining, you're not a victim, you're just a passenger who was quizzed, we all have been at one time or another.

No no - I want to hear about how I make 'everyone's life more diificult'. Please, I want to understand that one. You wrote it, let's hear your explanation.

Yes yes! You didn't state that you broke Immigration/visa law and you didn't state you were accused of such but you appear very upset as a result, why is that? From what you've written you just appear to have been heavily queried or is there another aspect that is not disclosed? If the first part of all that is true, you certainly did not make my life or that of my counterparts any more difficult, my comments were geared towards those who abused the visa system, not those who were subject to questioning by Immigration on arrival, clear?

Oh, so now being completely outside of asia for 7 months, and then entering via air to Sawanabhumi is breaking immigration/visa law? That's interesting, because that's not what the law says at all.

And not what Chiang Mai says either. Can you read?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It would be crazy, unless what this official really means is, 'I don't want white people staying here anymore, unless they're incredibly wealthy.', which would be more problematic to actually say publicly.

You can stay here as long as you want if you buy the 500,000 Baht Thailand Elite membership.

It comes with a 5 year multiple entry visa. Each time you enter you get a 1 year stamp. There's no limits on the number of entries within the 5 years.

All you need to do is 90 day reporting during this whole year.

It is a visa designed to allow people of any age who don't work to live in Thailand, all you need to do is pay the fee.

Until the would-be card buyer has paid the money, and then the government and/or Immigration turns around and changes the rules/enforcement for THAT program.

Or, as has basically/almost happened before, the whole card venture gets scrapped as a costly financial boondoggle, and cardholders are left holding a worthless card.

I'm not saying that's what's happened already or in the past in terms of the card's promised Immigration benefits. I am saying, given how things operate here, I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility.

[Soutpeel]

It would be crazy, unless what this official really means is, 'I don't want white people staying here anymore, unless they're incredibly wealthy.', which would be more problematic to actually say publicly.

You can stay here as long as you want if you buy the 500,000 Baht Thailand Elite membership.

It comes with a 5 year multiple entry visa. Each time you enter you get a 1 year stamp. There's no limits on the number of entries within the 5 years.

All you need to do is 90 day reporting during this whole year.

It is a visa designed to allow people of any age who don't work to live in Thailand, all you need to do is pay the fee.

So where are we now in the under 50, upwardly mobile, not married, not working, got lots of money and I cant get a visa for living long term in Thailand visa stakes ?

1. 500k TE membership ? USD 15k

2. THB 10 million investment visa USD 300k

3 Ed visa go and learn Thai visa USD 2k/yr ??

Seems to me there is a fair spread of options,suiting all pockets

[Timwin]

Rules typically become more restrictive the more a country develops, so what Cambodia is currently doing today has absolutely no relevance to what is happening in Thailand today, they are at different places in their development as a country.

Australia is a good example of this, not so many moons years ago, if you could scratch together GDP 10 for your passage, Aussie would take you in, no questions asked, and now try an rock up in Aussie and stay their long term without jumping through hoops/rules

You are fine with this BS as long as it does not concern you. I'd bet if they changed your visa requirements, you would be among the first to bitch about it here!

Even if you have all the paperwork in order, they still might reject an application in Thailand. I have seen it happening in another matter. The papers were triple checked by company and previous same papers were accepted half a year earlier but still the application was rejected. A month later no problems with the exact same papers. Maybe something to do with "brown envelopes"...

Edited May 18, 2014 by Timwin

[Thai at Heart]

I'm surprised so many on here moan about Immigration suggesting they need to have 20'000"baht in their pocket.

That was certainly the complaint from the Russian woman who was rejected yet that sum will not last long in Phuket.

Lots of Russians have bought condos in place like Karon and are now renting them out on sites such as AirBnB.

Hotels hate that site as it offers great accommodation at half their room rates.

Thailand if rife with Farangs working in the tourist sector as diving instructors etc,bar owners, and teachers.

First of all what does rife mean? 80% of those jobs can't be done by Thais. Secondly, how do you know these people aren't legal?

If they are visa running on a tourist visa then they are not legal. The Russian woman stopped at Phuket airport was doing that.

If you want to work in Thailand you need a work permit and certain sector of employment are not open to foreigners.

What exactly is illegal about being a tourist. I know at least a dozen oil guys who are not working in Thailand who use Thailand as a base to come and go from.

The story of the Russian woman provided no proof at all that she was working. If she had had 20k they would have let her in. They should be arresting illegal workers without permits if the issue is illegal work. Not judging arbitrarily on tourist arrivals.

Technically Roman Abrahomivic is subject to the same scrutiny if he comes for 5 holidays per year and stays in his own apartment.

[SlackJawChef]

In Costa Rica you get 90 day on arrival but have to leave the country for 72hrs before you can re enter and get a new 90 day visa..... If immigration was smart they would be pushing for this and investing in border town hotels and restaurants ..... also to anyone trying to compare this to western policies .. remember in the west at least you get treated like a person.. and if you are married to one of its citizens you are afforded basic human rights... I also think work permits should be more readily available ... without ridiculous restrictions ..like x # of local staff ... and a reasonable tax rate .. as most westerners are at least used to paying tax as I have yet to find any local that I talk to that collects or pays tax on their small businesses ... big boost for the economy and a incentive for westerners to go legit ... but I guess this would be too progressif...

S.J.C

Edited May 18, 2014 by SlackJawChef

[chiang mai]

Immigration in most countries sometimes give passengers a "hard time" periodically, their job is to quiz and assess. You got in didn't you, stop complaining, you're not a victim, you're just a passenger who was quizzed, we all have been at one time or another.

No no - I want to hear about how I make 'everyone's life more diificult'. Please, I want to understand that one. You wrote it, let's hear your explanation.

Yes yes! You didn't state that you broke Immigration/visa law and you didn't state you were accused of such but you appear very upset as a result, why is that? From what you've written you just appear to have been heavily queried or is there another aspect that is not disclosed? If the first part of all that is true, you certainly did not make my life or that of my counterparts any more difficult, my comments were geared towards those who abused the visa system, not those who were subject to questioning by Immigration on arrival, clear?

Oh, so now being completely outside of asia for 7 months, and then entering via air to Sawanabhumi is breaking immigration/visa law? That's interesting, because that's not what the law says at all.

Take a big breath, comprehension of the written word is not your strength, I can tell! Try reading it all again and this time, read what you see, not what you imagine!

[Soutpeel]

It would be crazy, unless what this official really means is, 'I don't want white people staying here anymore, unless they're incredibly wealthy.', which would be more problematic to actually say publicly.

You can stay here as long as you want if you buy the 500,000 Baht Thailand Elite membership.

It comes with a 5 year multiple entry visa. Each time you enter you get a 1 year stamp. There's no limits on the number of entries within the 5 years.

All you need to do is 90 day reporting during this whole year.

It is a visa designed to allow people of any age who don't work to live in Thailand, all you need to do is pay the fee.

Until the would-be card buyer has paid the money, and then the government and/or Immigration turns around and changes the rules/enforcement for THAT program.

Or, as has basically/almost happened before, the whole card venture gets scrapped as a costly financial boondoggle, and cardholders are left holding a worthless card.

I'm not saying that's what's happened already or in the past in terms of the card's promised Immigration benefits. I am saying, given how things operate here, I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility.

Of course but you pays ya money ya takes ya chance I guess...nothing in life is guaranteed

You get married here, get your visa on that basis and she takes all your money and she divorces you....No visa...and one suspects in a lot of cases the THB 500k TE card would have been cheaper...

[stevenl]

What exactly is illegal about being a tourist. I know at least a dozen oil guys who are not working in Thailand who use Thailand as a base to come and go from.

The story of the Russian woman provided no proof at all that she was working. If she had had 20k they would have let her in. They should be arresting illegal workers without permits if the issue is illegal work. Not judging arbitrarily on tourist arrivals.

Technically Roman Abrahomivic is subject to the same scrutiny if he comes for 5 holidays per year and stays in his own apartment.

Yes, those oil and gas guys do that and are ok.

She was working.

3. Yes, he is.

[BIGTOE3]

You cannot travel to Australia, Britain, America, Canada or any other such nation, and walk in and start working in any capacity without applying for a work visa.

Whether they are taking a potential job away from a Thai resident is irrelevant, a non tourist person who works without the proper paperwork is an illegal alien, you would be the same in just about any other country in the world so what is your problem?

Just wondering IF your Bignose was Bigger than my Toe.

BT

[Thai at Heart]

Of course, absolutely no discussion about whether the work permit rules are correct and appropriate. No discussion about whether the company investment rules are correct and appropriate.

How much does an illegal foreign worker get paid 30k, 40k?

So let's assume they remove say, 10k people from phuket at 35k per person, but these jobs aren't replaced at all

10,000 x 35k per month = 350,000,000 per month of earning and spending removed from the economy every month. Even if they replace half, will they get paid 35k as thai employees? That is rent, food, entertainment and all the rest that turns in the economy.

So, let's hope they are extremely successful with this so that their folly becomes obvious very fast. Isnt it time to look at all the investment restrictions and work permit rules

Anyone planning on relocating to Thailand right now should reconsider as this massive change in regulation enforcement will result in wide scale differences in the mainstream tourist areas.

Relocating on the back of being a tourist is odd to me anyway. But if you are Working insist on a work permit. That's all anyone can do.

If they really go forward with this it may cause big problems in the beach resort. The amount of casual long stayers may plummet. Its their own fault. Why can't they reform the visas to stop.under 50s having to make repeated runs?

[BIGTOE3]

You cannot travel to Australia, Britain, America, Canada or any other such nation, and walk in and start working in any capacity without applying for a work visa.

Whether they are taking a potential job away from a Thai resident is irrelevant, a non tourist person who works without the proper paperwork is an illegal alien, you would be the same in just about any other country in the world so what is your problem?

Just wondering IF your Bignose was Bigger than my Toe.

BT

[chrisinth]

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Some guys here seems to be very frustrated about Thailand. I wonder why they still want to living here.

Some of them may not be living here for much longer.

Hence the frustration.......................

[Soutpeel]

You fine with this BS as long as it does not concern you. I'd bet if they changed your visa requirements, you would be among first to bitch about it here!

Even if you have all the paperwork in order, they still might reject an application in Thailand. I have seen it happening in another matter. The papers were triple checked by company and previous same papers were accepted half a year earlier but still the application was rejected. A month later no problems with the exact same papers. Maybe something to do with "brown envelopes"...

If they changed the visa requirements where it got to point where is wasn't workable anymore for what ever reason....I would just go somewhere else...no problem, I haven't thrown my lot into Thailand, and if it did all fall apart tomorrow, I know exactly the hit I would take, and have always used the old Thai clique..."never invest more than your prepared to walk away from"..as my guiding maxim.

Of course if I did have to take the "hit" I wouldn't be happy about it, but at the same time, ain't going to start getting involved in the sport of balcony diving either.

If things did get to that point, one of the options I have is just to go home, and start again, not a big problem.

As to your last sentence, this is the joys of bureaucracy the work over my dear boy, what some one wanted 6 months previous to approve a document has no bearing on what they want today, it may have nothing to do with little brown envelopes

to illustrate my point, take the time to go and read the extensive thread on renewing a British PP from Thailand, this is perfect illustration of bureaucracy in action and how things can change over a 6 month period and not for the better I might add.

One could suggest that instead of people on this topic bleating away about racism/xenophobia, "they don't understand" type comments.

time might be better spent exploring what options various people do have to stay legal, dependent on the position they find themselves

[tropo]

If you abuse the system what do you expect - no other country will put up with the nonsense of people coming and going as if it is their right to do so. A tourist visa is a tourist visa - not an invitation to stay for ever.

Since when was it an invitation to stay forever? It is not as easy as you think. It has been getting harder and harder to get back to back tourist visas in recent years.

[Phuketboy]

I hope all those people who chose to live here in Thailand, but sit in this forum and complain all the time about everything that happens here, thai bash but refuse to pack up and leave, can't get their visa's renewed. This would definitely make the expat community in Thailand or at least the rest of us who are happy here even more happy. You stupid miserable old fools make us all sound bad. Whatever happened in your life to make you like this? Why sit here and complain when you can leave? When things arn't enforced here you complain and then when they enforce the law you complain about that as well. You guys really can't make up your minds what you want cause you are miserable and will whinge regardless.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Phuketboy

[tropo]

And all those abusing the ED visa to stay - May have their new found language skills put to test the next time they visit immigration!

Some people are slow learners.

[bangkapi]

The system in place is abusive and inconvenient to long-time visitors and workers.

However, if you have a lot of money and don't mind spending it, all the hassles melt away.

[chrisinth]

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I understand that they have a problem with people doing back to back tourist visas. So just don't grant the visa again to them.
You can't go letting somebody pay for something then change your mind for no reason. Not only would I bet that it would be illegal somehow, but it's immoral as well. It's just not right.
It might not be illegal in tbis country but I bet it is in the UK. You can't take money from someone then not give them the goods. I won't accept it and I'm sure a lot more people won't either.
It's not the cost of the visa, it's the principle of it.

I honestly don't think people will have problems with double/triple entry tourist visas.

As long as they read the fine print and pay attention to the hints that have been provided in numerous topics on this issue, and from multiple sources in Thai immigration. When doing a border run/flight gateway to bring in your second or third entry:

Make sure you have an outbound flight ticket with you.

Make sure you have your itinerary with you.

Make sure you have proof of funds to support your stay in Thailand. (I have seen a couple of figures mentioned, I think it is 20,000 baht but may be wrong here)

Act like a tourist...............

The only problem I could see would be for a person arriving with a passport full of tourist visas with no break in between. IMHO, these are the unfortunates who may be grilled more than others.

[Nautilus05]

Wow, did Thailand every totally botch this. I wonder if they realize how much long-term damage they're doing? For a long time it was arms wide open with a welcoming smile, please come in and enjoy, so that's what many people did. Many people setup lives here, worked hard, spent lots of money, purchased real estate, setup businesses that contributed to the overall economy, invested, etc.

Then overnight it's, "that's it, next time you see an immigration officer, you're getting deported and blacklisted for 5 years". From the sounds of what's coming from immigration, it sounds as though a good 50,000+ people will be getting kicked out and blacklisted, if not more.

Does Thailand realize what they're doing to their own country by doing this? You can even be delusional, and say those 50,000+ people don't make a difference (they do), but even if that was the case, just think about how much fear and uncertantity this is creating for everyone else in the world. Do you think people are going to continue freely coming over to setup a life and / or business, buy a retirement house, etc.? Not as much as before, and it's probably going to be a long time before people feel safe doing so again.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Nautilus05

[chrisinth]

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Why are you all so upset, Thailand is just becomming like all the other western countries.

But Thailand is NOTHING like all the other western countries

Only because it is South Eastern.

But lets not let geography get in the way........

The person who made the original comment appears to think the world should follow what he would be used to in his home country.

Joking aside, Thailand certainly is changing, and adopting western standards, good or bad.

[louse1953]

If you abuse the system what do you expect - no other country will put up with the nonsense of people coming and going as if it is their right to do so. A tourist visa is a tourist visa - not an invitation to stay for ever.

You think Immigration really cares about making it right? Get real man. Don't blame the people who are simply trying to make a living. Blame the corruption within the system if you want to blame somebody or something. Just like this current political crisis, it's going to be the same. At the end of the crisis, the country is going to be ruled by a godfather. It's only an issue of whether the godfather comes from the north or the south. Likewise, Immigration will remain the same. It's only an issue of where the money is being directed - to the border officers or to the higher ranking embassy/consulate officers. And it looks like now the money is shifting towards the higher ranked folks.

Well i do blame the folks trying to make a living on incorrect visas,had it good for too long.What western country would put up with this.Party is over folks,time to go home.

[DP25]

It’s a policy decided by Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon, the Immigration Bureau Commissioner, to strike back at South Korea’s government.

“Do you love Thailand?” Pol Lt Gen Pharnu said he asked the complaining operators. “I told them that if you love our country, you must understand that these types of tourists are destroying our country by stealing jobs from Thais.

This and other quotes from this guy make it seem like this decision is very personal.

This will probably blow over and be modified when the government changes and someone else is in charge.

[gbswales]

i can already see the line of thais waiting to take the 100bt a day jobs that are being made vacant by the illegals they are expelling............oh, sorry,its just the queue for the KFC

well those businesses will just have to learn to make less profit for themselves and pay their workers a living wage - I have no sympathy for ANY business in Thailand or here in the UK that uses illegal foreign workers to pay low wages or exploit their employment rights. If a business cannot make a profit while paying their workers enough money for a decent life then the business is simply not wanted as far as I am concerned as the owner is in it JUST to make money and avoiding any social responsibility. I do think that it should be much easier for everyone to live and work wherever they want to in the world - but not by working for starvation wages. What I cannot understand is why it is made so difficult for foreigners who do not want / need to work to live in Thailand permanently after all they only bring income to Thailand

[Soutpeel]

Wow, did Thailand every totally botch this. I wonder if they realize how much long-term damage they're doing? For a long time it was arms wide open with a welcoming smile, please come in and enjoy, so that's what many people did. Many people setup lives here, worked hard, spent lots of money, purchased real estate, setup businesses that contributed to the overall economy, invested, etc.

Ok people have done everything you have said they have done, they are not stopping you doing any of this, they just want you to have the proper paperwork for what it is your doing in Thailand, that's all

IMHO, its not a botch up at all, its not even new, the rules have always been there, all that's happened, and there own admission, they have been slack in in enforcing the rules, they have now decided to enforce said rules, the screams on xenophobia/racism etc may have been warranted if they had introduced new rules, but they haven't..... the rules have always been there.

Lets face reality, is it really smart to thrown your "whole lot" into country, you don't have the legal right of abode in ? without the possibility of getting that right of abode for most people under the current requirements and I am not even talking about citizenship, I am taking about PR.

Is it really smart throwing your "lot in" into a country where you have to rely on the whim of an immigration officer to give you permission to stay for another year.

[Soutpeel]

The system in place is abusive and inconvenient to long-time visitors and workers.

However, if you have a lot of money and don't mind spending it, all the hassles melt away.

I disagree, I am a "long time visitor" and an worker here and have never been abused or been inconvenienced by the system in the least..

[Nautilus05]

Joking aside, Thailand certainly is changing, and adopting western standards, good or bad.

Honestly, I'd say they're sticking with the Asian angle quite nicely, as what they're doing is fairly draconian. If a Western govt decided to do a crackdown like this, they'd give notice, have media campaigns, most likely provide a pathway to amnesty and a way to legally apply / stay, etc.

But nope, not Thailand. Just going to straight out deport and blacklist everyone they don't like, no notice, no questions asked. Well, ok then... have fun in three years from now with your media campaigns trying to attract foriengers and tourists again, because the numbers dropped so low.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Nautilus05

[louse1953]

Wow, did Thailand every totally botch this. I wonder if they realize how much long-term damage they're doing? For a long time it was arms wide open with a welcoming smile, please come in and enjoy, so that's what many people did. Many people setup lives here, worked hard, spent lots of money, purchased real estate, setup businesses that contributed to the overall economy, invested, etc.

Then overnight it's, "that's it, next time you see an immigration officer, you're getting deported and blacklisted for 5 years". From the sounds of what's coming from immigration, it sounds as though a good 50,000+ people will be getting kicked out and blacklisted, if not more.

Does Thailand realize what they're doing to their own country by doing this? You can even be delusional, and say those 50,000+ people don't make a difference (they do), but even if that was the case, just think about how much fear and uncertantity this is creating for everyone else in the world. Do you think people are going to continue freely coming over to setup a life and / or business, buy a retirement house, etc.? Not as much as before, and it's probably going to be a long time before people feel safe doing so again.

If people set a "life"on a tourist visa then they are just plain dumb.

[Soutpeel]

Joking aside, Thailand certainly is changing, and adopting western standards, good or bad.

Honestly, I'd say they're sticking with the Asian angle quite nicely, as what they're doing is fairly draconian. If a Western govt decided to do a crackdown like this, they'd give notice, have media campaigns, most likely provide a pathway to amnesty and a way to legally apply / stay, etc.

But nope, not Thailand. Just going to straight out deport and blacklist everyone they don't like, no notice, no questions asked.

If they had introduced new rules I may agree with you about something being draconian, but there are no new rules, the difference between the west and Thailand in this instance is, in the West they typically enforce the rules fully the day they are enacted, where as Thailand enacts the rules and then doesn't enforce them, or enforce them properly from day one.

most likely provide a pathway to amnesty and a way to legally apply / stay

There are multiple legal ways to stay long term, why do they need to provide a pathway....?

Just going to straight out deport and blacklist everyone they don't like, no notice, no questions asked

And the provisions for doing this have always been there, as with most countries, if your not complying with your terms of stay, they can deport you and even "blacklist you, further if you do get deported/black listed, you do have the right of appeal, so if your contention is an immigration officer wouldn't let you in because he doesn't like your face you can appeal this, but one suspects even if he/she doesn't like your face, provided you have the paper work appropriate to your intended stay they will let you in..

[Mab]

The point is many South Korean nationalities are working for South Korean companies not for Thais so their salary is being paid by Korean owned business, on the other hand there is no such thing as stealing jobs. Russian operated tourism agents exist for the same reasons cause many East European tourists do not trust local agencies (guess why?).

While the number of illegal Cambodian or Myanmar workers are overwhelming there is no point to target developed nations unless you have an agenda. I have been witnessing countless of slavery in rural villages, factories etc. Cambodians illegally working for a thousand baht for whole month. Countless in fact. Why Thai Immigration never attempted to solve illegal slavery from Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar? I wouldn’t have commented if I have not been seeing these things with my own eyes for years. Yes fight against to illegal issues but start from the biggest, not the tail.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Mab