What every farang should know about Thai bureaucracy

[boomerangutang]

I have been visiting Thailand for 33 years, and resided here for half that time.

I have had 3 attorneys, and had to deal with several legal issues.

Sometimes things can go smoothly, for a farang dealing with legal issues. More often, things get prickly. Here are some observations of mine, over the years:

>>> Thai bureaucracy wants to make things difficult. Why? Because it maintains the incredibly high number of hired bureaucrats. In Thailand, bureaucrats don't get fired or laid off. There are only additional hirings, mostly accountants and paper pushers.

>>> The number of government buildings in any sizable city is large. In my town of Chiang Rai, there are hundreds of government buildings. Some just have a few people who do nothing all day, some have hundreds who do nearly nothing.

>>> Bureaucrats are great at appearing busy. Job security is paramount.

>>> If something doesn't have to be done, it won't be done. Case in point: North of Chiang Rai, there are tens of thousands of properties with no title (chanod). The Land department, with hundreds of employees hasn't lifted a finger for decades, to establish titles because... you guessed it, ....they don't absolutely have to.

>>> No Thai person questions bureaucracy. If a bureaucrat says something has to be done. That's it. Talking back to a bureaucrat is considered akin to talking back to a monk.

>>> If there's a difficult way to get something done, that's the way.

>>> If there's a relatively easy way to get something done, it won't be mentioned. I've had several case studies of this recently, but they're too wordy to include here.

>>> If Police recover money from a robbery, a portion of that is expected to divvied up by police. Higher ranks get higher %, lower ranks get lower %.

>>> ATM security cameras don't work. Again, I could explain how I known this, but it's a long story. Probably same for security cameras all over.

I know T.Visaites reading this are going to say, "No way, bla bla bla." I admit, there are exceptions to what I wrote above. However, I wrote it, in the remote hope that some farang may avoid unnecessary problems/hassles while trying to do legal things in Thailand.

[Globalist]

Pretty good summary, I've indeed also noticed the first points about the paper pushers' behaviour. Every document and comma sign must be exactly correct, that is paramount. Then they're doing (and motivating) their job. The big picture is irrelevant. I suspected in the past that they acted irrationally to get "tea money", but it is likely more about job protection, as the OP stated.

[h90]

Therefor, everyone bribe to get things easier.....

As more you pay as easier it gets.....sad but true....

[Seastallion]

I agree, the big picture is irrelevant, but the minutiae are what's focused on. It's not just government, but private enterprise too.

Also there is the reticence to think outside the square. The proscribed way is THE way, no matter that it was proscribed 20 years ago before the internet and other technologies, no matter that the official that proscribed it was plainly an officious buffoon making work for work's sake.

In a way it's like the carpark security guards. The whistle is the symbol and manifestation of their authority, so they make a point of using it as much as possible, never mind that with a whistle, less is more, and that because of overuse people tend to ignore it completely, thereby rendering the actual whistle sound redundant, not to mention annoying. It shows who is in charge, and that is what counts, not traffic management. With administrative management, the way to express their authority is by laying down rules and procedures. The more rules and procedures made, the more their authority is manifested. Hence so many petty, useless, long-winded procedures and regulations.

[susan d]

I agree with you.

[inthepink]

I agree, the big picture is irrelevant, but the minutiae are what's focused on. It's not just government, but private enterprise too.

Also there is the reticence to think outside the square. The proscribed way is THE way, no matter that it was proscribed 20 years ago before the internet and other technologies, no matter that the official that proscribed it was plainly an officious buffoon making work for work's sake.

In a way it's like the carpark security guards. The whistle is the symbol and manifestation of their authority, so they make a point of using it as much as possible, never mind that with a whistle, less is more, and that because of overuse people tend to ignore it completely, thereby rendering the actual whistle sound redundant, not to mention annoying. It shows who is in charge, and that is what counts, not traffic management. With administrative management, the way to express their authority is by laying down rules and procedures. The more rules and procedures made, the more their authority is manifested. Hence so many petty, useless, long-winded procedures and regulations.

It's box and prescribed, not square and proscribed.

[CharlieH]

So sad, but so true.

In the west we used to say " dont put off until tomorrow what you can do today"

Here in Thailand, "you dont do today, you do when you absolutely have to"

"Where there is a will there is a way" , "There is no will , so there is no way"

I bet many out there can think of similar sayings that are reversed here ?

Edited May 20, 2014 by CharlieH

[JLCrab]

Ergo do your best not to get involved in situations that might someday involve the courts, attorneys, and multiple legal issues.

[Berkshire]

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

[Suradit69]

I wonder what some people would do if they couldn't complain endlessly. There are those who take up golf or charitable work or drink themselves into oblivion and apparently others who wile away the hours crafting things to moan about. Is it something to do with (male or female varieties of ) menopause? Certainly their social interactions must be waning as people spot them approaching with the latest list of things to whine about and they flee for cover.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Suradit69

[boomerangutang]

I wonder what some people would do if they couldn't complain endlessly.

As the OP I'll try to address that; For starters, complaining can easily get overdone. Similarly, compliance can get overdone. In Thailand, you have Asian-style compliance to the 10th degree. Sometimes it's good to complain, but obviously complaining too much or too loudly can be a stone drag. It's easier to stay out of everything. If a person sees another man beating a woman, or sees a child tying a dog to a tree and beating it, that person has a choice. If that person resides in N.Korea or China or Thailand, he/she will probably scoot out of the way. It that person was from a farang country, he/she would probably speak up. Same goes for bus or taxi drivers driving crazily. The list could go on ad infinitum.

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Good point, but Thai bureaucracy takes added efforts to make things difficult for farang. It's the bureaucrats' way of asserting domination. Not in every scenario, but often enough to show a pattern.

[Suradit69]

So sad, but so true.

In the west we used to say " dont put off until tomorrow what you can do today"

Here in Thailand, "you dont do today, you do when you absolutely have to"

"Where there is a will there is a way" , "There is no will , so there is no way"

I bet many out there can think of similar sayings that are reversed here ?

Yes, if you are a resident farang and are desperate to post on Thai Visa, the saying below can be reversed to:

If you have nothing nice or intelligent to post, write something nasty and belittling about Thailand.

[Seastallion]

I agree, the big picture is irrelevant, but the minutiae are what's focused on. It's not just government, but private enterprise too.

Also there is the reticence to think outside the square. The proscribed way is THE way, no matter that it was proscribed 20 years ago before the internet and other technologies, no matter that the official that proscribed it was plainly an officious buffoon making work for work's sake.

In a way it's like the carpark security guards. The whistle is the symbol and manifestation of their authority, so they make a point of using it as much as possible, never mind that with a whistle, less is more, and that because of overuse people tend to ignore it completely, thereby rendering the actual whistle sound redundant, not to mention annoying. It shows who is in charge, and that is what counts, not traffic management. With administrative management, the way to express their authority is by laying down rules and procedures. The more rules and procedures made, the more their authority is manifested. Hence so many petty, useless, long-winded procedures and regulations.

It's box and prescribed, not square and proscribed.

Thanks, I'll accept correction on "proscribed", but not on "square".

[Phoenix1312]

You forgot to mention the way to get things done is to pay under the table money. No one wants to do their job unless you pay extra. Total crap and extortion

[boomerangutang]

So sad, but so true.

In the west we used to say " dont put off until tomorrow what you can do today"

Here in Thailand, "you dont do today, you do when you absolutely have to"

"Where there is a will there is a way" , "There is no will , so there is no way"

I bet many out there can think of similar sayings that are reversed here ?

Yes, if you are a resident farang and are desperate to post on Thai Visa, the saying below can be reversed to:

If you have nothing nice or intelligent to post, write something nasty and belittling about Thailand.

That would be a good motto for anyone in North Korea also.

Some people see things as they are and think, 'I'll just take care of myself and my family, and steer clear of any semblence of conflict.' That's the Thai way.

Others see the potential for improvements, and think; 'maybe if I make some suggestions of take actions for improvements, some things might improve.'

Here an example of the latter way of thinking and how it failed in Thailand:

I saw a fallow hill which could have trails around it, and could develop toward being a lovely free park for the community and visitors. I spoke with two 'pu yai bans' (village headmen in the vicinity) and a forestry official. All guardedly said it was a good idea, but then strongly hinted that, because I was a farang, I should 'grease their palms' (slip them money) to get the idea going. One suggested I build him a bicycle rental shop. I don't have extra money to develop a park, so the idea is languishing. ....but even broaching the idea, along with maps (hand-drawn by me) - might spawn some positive action in the future.

[godden]

I always say where there is a will there is a relative

[Neeranam]

No Thai person questions bureaucracy. If a bureaucrat says something has to be done. That's it. Talking back to a bureaucrat is considered akin to talking back to a monk.

>>> If there's a difficult way to get something done, that's the way.

>>> If there's a relatively easy way to get something done, it won't be mentioned. I've had several case studies of this recently, but they're too wordy to include here.

I agree with some things you say but disagree with the above.

Talking back can be done but there are consequences that stop people doing it.

Tasks are made difficult in order for them to make them easier for you.

The easy way isn't mentioned, you have to ask - I'd tell you how it is said in Thai but not allowed on this forum.

[trainman34014]

So sad, but so true.

In the west we used to say " dont put off until tomorrow what you can do today"

Here in Thailand, "you dont do today, you do when you absolutely have to"

"Where there is a will there is a way" , "There is no will , so there is no way"

I bet many out there can think of similar sayings that are reversed here ?

Yes, if you are a resident farang and are desperate to post on Thai Visa, the saying below can be reversed to:

If you have nothing nice or intelligent to post, write something nasty and belittling about Thailand.

That would be a good motto for anyone in North Korea also.

Some people see things as they are and think, 'I'll just take care of myself and my family, and steer clear of any semblence of conflict.' That's the Thai way.

Others see the potential for improvements, and think; 'maybe if I make some suggestions of take actions for improvements, some things might improve.'

Here an example of the latter way of thinking and how it failed in Thailand:

I saw a fallow hill which could have trails around it, and could develop toward being a lovely free park for the community and visitors. I spoke with two 'pu yai bans' (village headmen in the vicinity) and a forestry official. All guardedly said it was a good idea, but then strongly hinted that, because I was a farang, I should 'grease their palms' (slip them money) to get the idea going. One suggested I build him a bicycle rental shop. I don't have extra money to develop a park, so the idea is languishing. ....but even broaching the idea, along with maps (hand-drawn by me) - might spawn some positive action in the future.

Shame; because the longer you leave it the more money they will want (inflation you understand) and the bigger that Bike shop will have to be !

[MrY]

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Nice try, but it's more like comparing delays due to bridge construction vs no bridge and having to swim across...

[MrY]

OP reminds me of a comment by an old-timer (back when I was new here), when asked about Thai bureaucracy.

He asked back:

-Are familiar while the 'mañana' attitude in Latin America?

-Why, yes.

-Well, there's no such urgency here...

[mmail2you]

I agree as I had a person staying at my place and he had a slight stroke and so the new Pattaya hospital is just around the corner and there was a big write up in the Pattaya People or some paper about it opening and full operational anyway so I took this person to the hospital and they could not do anything and they didn't even have a doctore on duty. This hospital has a massive amount of people standing around and must have cost 5omil baht to build and staff and what can they do for emergencies - Absolutely NOTHING.

[Jimmu]

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Absolutely not!

[Retiredandhappyhere]

Of course there are good and bad things going on in this country. The fact that those of us who decide to live here do so is that on balance we believe the good outweighs the bad. Surely that does not mean that occasionally we cannot express an opinion or a criticism of officialdom etc, which most Thais seem reluctant to do.

Some things can be very annoying, such as the fact that in virtually every motor accident involving a farang, it is the farang who is deemed to be at fault and whose insurance company pays up. Recently, a motor cyclist ran into the back of my car, when I was signalling to make a right turn. The police spoke to the m/c girlfriend who was not present at the accident and turned to me and said "Your fault". My Thai driving licence was confiscated to ensure that I attended the police station where I waited for four and a half hours before being told to come back the next day at 9 am. for a meeting to decide who was the guilty party. When I arrived the next day, my insurer told me that everything had been settled already, which I subsequently discovered meant that he had agreed to pay for everything on my insurance, even though the Thai motor cyclist had no driving licence, no road tax, no insurance and was not wearing a helmet. Not surprisingly, he walked away laughing.

Obtaining a divorce from my Thai wife was completed in just one day at the local Amphur office, without the need of a solicitor. Try that in Europe! However, the three page Divorce Agreement written by me in English and then professionally translated into Thai, which could have been scanned into the Amphur's computer in about ten seconds, was carefully and slowly typed in word for word instead which took almost two hours. For all I know, the computerized version may not now be the same as my original.

A few years ago, while waiting for my Visa Renewal to be processed, I amused myself by counting the 37 rubber stamps, supplemented by three different coloured ink pads, on the official's desk, quite a few of which were carefully selected and (slowly) used on the forms and on my Passport. I think they must be a status symbol!. I also believe that Immigration now hold about 40 copies of my Passport plus all the various forms I have submitted, which account for the stack of papers forming my file there.

Having said all that, what a wonderful country we live in. It must be as otherwise why are we still here?

[Seastallion]

No Thai person questions bureaucracy. If a bureaucrat says something has to be done. That's it. Talking back to a bureaucrat is considered akin to talking back to a monk.

>>> If there's a difficult way to get something done, that's the way.

>>> If there's a relatively easy way to get something done, it won't be mentioned. I've had several case studies of this recently, but they're too wordy to include here.

I agree with some things you say but disagree with the above.

Talking back can be done but there are consequences that stop people doing it.

Tasks are made difficult in order for them to make them easier for you.

The easy way isn't mentioned, you have to ask - I'd tell you how it is said in Thai but not allowed on this forum.

As a student of Thai language and, despite my above observation (not a whinge), I always try to do things the Thai way when it involves interaction with Thai....I would really appreciate you posting in the language forum what you know. Or a PM.

Thanks in advance.

[ggt]

Thanks boomerangutang...thankfully...my exposure to the Thai bureaucracy has been limited...praise be to Buddha...I love an OP who is also a realist...

[Balance]

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

No, there is a qualitative difference between bureaucracy here and generally in the U.S. I have owned several businesses, bought and sold a couple of houses and generally speaking have found the people working for city, state and federal governments responsive and in most cases they know the subject matter. I have actually had many more problems with private sector bureaucracy.

[carter1882]

The best way to make Thai bureaucracy work better for you is to speak Thai excellently and understsnd the culture ecoertly. If you then apply the extra card of being the pleasant farang who is a knowledgable outsider everything will fall into place. The great majority of foreigners here cannot speak Thai well enough, know the culture only fleetingly and have no idea how to play the pleasant farang. Which is why so many people continually post their frustrations on this site. If you dont hold any jokers you cant play trumps.

[marko kok prong]

To be honest at my local Amphur office they have always been really good,i have never been asked for money,and have never had to wait to long,sure i have had to sling a few hundred Baht to the village Chief,to help out with a couple of things,but it's peanuts really,and if you live in a village it is better to have these people thinking well off you,it's not just Thailand this happens in many places in the world,the only thing i would say is i agree with post 23,about Falangs having to pay,when a car accident is not their fault,this is one thing i would definately stand my ground over.

[Brian Corrigan]

Of course there are good and bad things going on in this country. The fact that those of us who decide to live here do so is that on balance we believe the good outweighs the bad. Surely that does not mean that occasionally we cannot express an opinion or a criticism of officialdom etc, which most Thais seem reluctant to do.

Some things can be very annoying, such as the fact that in virtually every motor accident involving a farang, it is the farang who is deemed to be at fault and whose insurance company pays up. Recently, a motor cyclist ran into the back of my car, when I was signalling to make a right turn. The police spoke to the m/c girlfriend who was not present at the accident and turned to me and said "Your fault". My Thai driving licence was confiscated to ensure that I attended the police station where I waited for four and a half hours before being told to come back the next day at 9 am. for a meeting to decide who was the guilty party. When I arrived the next day, my insurer told me that everything had been settled already, which I subsequently discovered meant that he had agreed to pay for everything on my insurance, even though the Thai motor cyclist had no driving licence, no road tax, no insurance and was not wearing a helmet. Not surprisingly, he walked away laughing.

Obtaining a divorce from my Thai wife was completed in just one day at the local Amphur office, without the need of a solicitor. Try that in Europe! However, the three page Divorce Agreement written by me in English and then professionally translated into Thai, which could have been scanned into the Amphur's computer in about ten seconds, was carefully and slowly typed in word for word instead which took almost two hours. For all I know, the computerized version may not now be the same as my original.

A few years ago, while waiting for my Visa Renewal to be processed, I amused myself by counting the 37 rubber stamps, supplemented by three different coloured ink pads, on the official's desk, quite a few of which were carefully selected and (slowly) used on the forms and on my Passport. I think they must be a status symbol!. I also believe that Immigration now hold about 40 copies of my Passport plus all the various forms I have submitted, which account for the stack of papers forming my file there.

Having said all that, what a wonderful country we live in. It must be as otherwise why are we still here?

Its cheap and the exchange rate is not too bad at the moment.

[Grindting]

Thailand is bad, but there are more countries which are worse, such as Indonesia. But none come close to india

Either way, in Thailand same as the rest of the 3rd world, the level of laborious bureaucracy you have to go through depends on how deep or shallow your wallet is.

What can take weeks and weeks and weeks of paperwork and visiting different government buildings and waiting in line for hours upon end in Indonesia for a visa/work permit, can be done in 15 minutes if you have money. Through the agency my company used someone fills in the forms, hires the fake employees, creates the job title, goes to the government offices, does all the queuing, pays the correct tea money to the guys behind the glass, comes to your office to take your photos, brings all of your documents back and then you're all done without having to lift a finger

So if you have the $ the process can be more efficient than the west.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Grindting