What every farang should know about Thai bureaucracy

[evadgib]

Recently, a motor cyclist ran into the back of my car, when I was signalling to make a right turn. The police spoke to the m/c girlfriend who was not present at the accident and turned to me and said "Your fault". My Thai driving licence was confiscated to ensure that I attended the police station where I waited for four and a half hours before being told to come back the next day at 9 am. for a meeting to decide who was the guilty party. When I arrived the next day, my insurer told me that everything had been settled already, which I subsequently discovered meant that he had agreed to pay for everything on my insurance, even though the Thai motor cyclist had no driving licence, no road tax, no insurance and was not wearing a helmet. Not surprisingly, he walked away laughing.

<deleted post>

Edited May 20, 2014 by evadgib

[Rorri]

Berkshire, on 20 May 2014 - 14:42, said:Berkshire, on 20 May 2014 - 14:42, said:

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Um no... case in point..I'm in Mukdahan, to get my wife a passport we had to travel 166 k's to Ubon Ratchitani, wait 40 minutes our number to be called, she goes sit, does the interview, fills out a pile of forms, has her photo taken, then off to another window to pay... then of course return to Mukdahan. Back in Oz, I go to the Post Office, fill out one form have my photo taken, show my drivers licence, pay and all done(deal with one person), total time, less than 15 minutes. Most government offices I've been to are a one stop shop, I see one person and everything is done. Here you go from one person to the next, to the next to the next.....

Edited May 20, 2014 by Rorri

[samran]

Berkshire, on 20 May 2014 - 14:42, said:

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Um no... case in point..I'm in Mukdahan, to get my wife a passport we had to travel 166 k's to Ubon Ratchitani, wait 40 minutes our number to be called, she goes sit, does the interview, fills out a pile of forms, has her photo taken, then off to another window to pay... then of course return to Mukdahan. Back in Oz, I go to the Post Office, fill out one form have my photo taken, show my drivers licence, pay and all done, total time, less than 15 minutes. Most government offices I've been to are a one stop shop, I see one person and everything is done. Here you go from one person to the next, to the next to the next.....

I have both Thai and Australian passports. Australian passport always much bigger pain in he arse to process. And more costly.

The thing to remember about Thai bureaucracy is your ducks need to be lined up in a row. Whether it is for visas or car registration. You need the right bits of paper and then all goes well.

One of the reasons people complain about Thai bureaucracy is as immigrants to a new country they are exposed to it all at once. Embassy immigration, 90 days, annual renewal, bank account, drivers license etc etc. it would drive anyone mad.

Similar thing happened to me when I migrated to the UK. Getting an NI number required half a day waiting for the phone to pick up. Twice. Then a wait.

Getting a bank account required me either to have been in the uk more than a year, or have a blood line which stretched back to the battle of Hastings. My Australian DL needed to be switched over..was taken away by DVLA for a number of months, luckily I didn't need to drive. Getting registered with a GP was a whole other battle. And it went on. Passport take when my fist year visa was up...3 months for renewal. And that was the UK.

Point is living in a new place you are thrown into it all at once. And being a foreigner you'll never have all the right bits of paperwork. This makes it hard no matter where you are.

[boomerangutang]

The best way to make Thai bureaucracy work better for you is to speak Thai excellently and understsnd the culture ecoertly. If you then apply the extra card of being the pleasant farang who is a knowledgable outsider everything will fall into place. The great majority of foreigners here cannot speak Thai well enough, know the culture only fleetingly and have no idea how to play the pleasant farang. Which is why so many people continually post their frustrations on this site. If you dont hold any jokers you cant play trumps.

Fersure, speaking fluent Thai is a BIG PLUS. Similarly, having a savvy Thai wife can be helpful. I have neither. Below is a smattering of some good and bad things I've experienced recently, re; beauracracy:

>>> GOOD: I lost my yellow house registration (tabian ban). Went to get a replacement. It took 10 minutes, no hassles, and the lady actually smiled at me when she gave me the new one. And it was free!

>>> BAD: went to renew my Thai license. Lady said I need blue 'tabian ban'. I said I've renewed it twice using yellow, and I don't have a blue one. She said, no can do (all in Thai). I had her speak to my Thai attorney on the phone. After 8 minutes, 'mai dai.' More waiting and frustration. A 2nd phone call between her and my attorney. Same dead end. More waiting. A 3rd phone call. After talking 13 minutes, they found a solution!!!! The bureaucrat said I could get a special voucher from Imm. Office. WHY DIDN'T SHE TELL ME (or my attorney) THAT BEFORE CAUSING 1.5 HOURS OF PROFOUND FRUSTRATION. She kept shaking her head and saying 'mai dai' and of course, every bureaucrat within hearing range didn't even look at me, let alone volunteer a solution. Message: MAKE THINGS AS DIFFICULT AS POSSIBLE FOR FARANG.

>>> GOOD: When I went to Imm. for voucher, they were personable, friendly, and quick.

>>> BAD: Recently I tried to kill a Thai corporation. It's the 2nd time, so you'd think I would have learned. The 1st time I killed a corp it was just a couple of days and payment of Bt.5k. This time, mega-difficult. I was juggling 2 attorneys, 2 accountants, 2 Thai friends who were all trying to assist. There was one bureaucrat we had to try dealing with. It's a long drawn out story, with 7 visits and several weeks of hassles and expense for me. But, I finally went to another tax office, across town, and spoke to a bureaucrat who spoke English WOW!?!!?! It was the 1st time I'd had a voice in the many hours of negotiations. She offered a relatively painless solution, so that's where the imbroglio is at at this time. The bureaucrat who kept putting up walls, would never look at me, never said hello or goodbye, and kept adding more and more roadblocks and expenses. Just an all around craphead. I think we've successfully rendered him useless.

Ironically, guess who's the Thai Poster Boy for avoiding taxes? That's right, Thaksin. ...but that's another tangent.

[orpheus454]

I agree, the big picture is irrelevant, but the minutiae are what's focused on. It's not just government, but private enterprise too.

Also there is the reticence to think outside the square. The proscribed way is THE way, no matter that it was proscribed 20 years ago before the internet and other technologies, no matter that the official that proscribed it was plainly an officious buffoon making work for work's sake.

In a way it's like the carpark security guards. The whistle is the symbol and manifestation of their authority, so they make a point of using it as much as possible, never mind that with a whistle, less is more, and that because of overuse people tend to ignore it completely, thereby rendering the actual whistle sound redundant, not to mention annoying. It shows who is in charge, and that is what counts, not traffic management. With administrative management, the way to express their authority is by laying down rules and procedures. The more rules and procedures made, the more their authority is manifested. Hence so many petty, useless, long-winded procedures and regulations.

Seems somewhat subversive, that the proscribed way becomes THE way... almost makes criminals out of everybody.

And it's been proscribed for 20 years??!!

When will these people come to their senses and obey the law...??

[orpheus454]

I wonder what some people would do if they couldn't complain endlessly. <snip>

Sadly, death is the only way many will stop...

[stockholm1995]

so, why did you post?

So sad, but so true.

In the west we used to say " dont put off until tomorrow what you can do today"
Here in Thailand, "you dont do today, you do when you absolutely have to"

"Where there is a will there is a way" , "There is no will , so there is no way"


I bet many out there can think of similar sayings that are reversed here ?

Yes, if you are a resident farang and are desperate to post on Thai Visa, the saying below can be reversed to:

If you have nothing nice or intelligent to post, write something nasty and belittling about Thailand.

[Thai at Heart]

Once you realise that most Thai bureaucrats have an IQ of 85 and have a love of money its simple.

Just feed them cash and they will do cartwheels and a nice drawing for you if you want.

[Thai at Heart]

The best way to make Thai bureaucracy work better for you is to speak Thai excellently and understsnd the culture ecoertly. If you then apply the extra card of being the pleasant farang who is a knowledgable outsider everything will fall into place. The great majority of foreigners here cannot speak Thai well enough, know the culture only fleetingly and have no idea how to play the pleasant farang. Which is why so many people continually post their frustrations on this site. If you dont hold any jokers you cant play trumps.

Fersure, speaking fluent Thai is a BIG PLUS. Similarly, having a savvy Thai wife can be helpful. I have neither. Below is a smattering of some good and bad things I've experienced recently, re; beauracracy:

>>> GOOD: I lost my yellow house registration (tabian ban). Went to get a replacement. It took 10 minutes, no hassles, and the lady actually smiled at me when she gave me the new one. And it was free!

>>> BAD: went to renew my Thai license. Lady said I need blue 'tabian ban'. I said I've renewed it twice using yellow, and I don't have a blue one. She said, no can do (all in Thai). I had her speak to my Thai attorney on the phone. After 8 minutes, 'mai dai.' More waiting and frustration. A 2nd phone call between her and my attorney. Same dead end. More waiting. A 3rd phone call. After talking 13 minutes, they found a solution!!!! The bureaucrat said I could get a special voucher from Imm. Office. WHY DIDN'T SHE TELL ME (or my attorney) THAT BEFORE CAUSING 1.5 HOURS OF PROFOUND FRUSTRATION. She kept shaking her head and saying 'mai dai' and of course, every bureaucrat within hearing range didn't even look at me, let alone volunteer a solution. Message: MAKE THINGS AS DIFFICULT AS POSSIBLE FOR FARANG.

>>> GOOD: When I went to Imm. for voucher, they were personable, friendly, and quick.

>>> BAD: Recently I tried to kill a Thai corporation. It's the 2nd time, so you'd think I would have learned. The 1st time I killed a corp it was just a couple of days and payment of Bt.5k. This time, mega-difficult. I was juggling 2 attorneys, 2 accountants, 2 Thai friends who were all trying to assist. There was one bureaucrat we had to try dealing with. It's a long drawn out story, with 7 visits and several weeks of hassles and expense for me. But, I finally went to another tax office, across town, and spoke to a bureaucrat who spoke English WOW!?!!?! It was the 1st time I'd had a voice in the many hours of negotiations. She offered a relatively painless solution, so that's where the imbroglio is at at this time. The bureaucrat who kept putting up walls, would never look at me, never said hello or goodbye, and kept adding more and more roadblocks and expenses. Just an all around craphead. I think we've successfully rendered him useless.

Ironically, guess who's the Thai Poster Boy for avoiding taxes? That's right, Thaksin. ...but that's another tangent.

Well he paid for the best and most connected lawyers in the country and got financial advice from the most connected bank in the country.

Look how far that got him.....

Edited May 20, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[dotpoom]

Not a lot different from my own country then....and most of Europe...and the African Continent...others can decide about the good old USA.

[bifftastic]

No Thai person questions bureaucracy. If a bureaucrat says something has to be done. That's it. Talking back to a bureaucrat is considered akin to talking back to a monk.

>>> If there's a difficult way to get something done, that's the way.

>>> If there's a relatively easy way to get something done, it won't be mentioned. I've had several case studies of this recently, but they're too wordy to include here.

I agree with some things you say but disagree with the above.

Talking back can be done but there are consequences that stop people doing it.

Tasks are made difficult in order for them to make them easier for you.

The easy way isn't mentioned, you have to ask - I'd tell you how it is said in Thai but not allowed on this forum.

As a student of Thai language and, despite my above observation (not a whinge), I always try to do things the Thai way when it involves interaction with Thai....I would really appreciate you posting in the language forum what you know. Or a PM.

Thanks in advance.

I would also be interested.

Thanks.

[roamer]

Not a lot different from my own country then....and most of Europe...and the African Continent...others can decide about the good old USA.

You said it. I've worked all over the globe for many years and I have seriously been thinking is anywhere easier than Thailand overall ? I think not. Certainly some places are easier if you happen to be a national of that country and speak the language. But not always. Spend some time in somewhere like India and you would would be enviously thinking how much speedier and efficient Thailand was. Spend some time in the UK and you will find out how much quicker things can be...sometimes, albeit at a price for "express" service, and sometimes find totally immovable blocks in the way.

It's the same the whole world over in my experience.

[Emilp]

Thai Bureaucratic System is not good. It's very slow as topic.

[ATF]

I just wish the Thai system could be exported to Western Countries. When some asylum seeker turns up with his entourage he should kept waiting for months instead of being given free everything when poor unemployed citizens of said countries get very little.

Regarding closing a company it is a very complicated affair. How do they know you aren't trying to dodge debts or obligations? And getting your GF to do everything for you and act as a PA is pathetic because even the average Western woman or man has very little understanding of the law in their own countries. Your GF probably never even finished high school as is the case with most Falung's GF's.

Good luck buddy trying to change Thailand into wherever you came from, because that's exactly the place most of us are trying to get away from.

Edited May 21, 2014 by ATF

[thamteak]

Thai society and culture drives farang nuts.

Who'd have thought it.

[giddyup]

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The best way to make Thai bureaucracy work better for you is to speak Thai excellently and understsnd the culture ecoertly. If you then apply the extra card of being the pleasant farang who is a knowledgable outsider everything will fall into place. The great majority of foreigners here cannot speak Thai well enough, know the culture only fleetingly and have no idea how to play the pleasant farang. Which is why so many people continually post their frustrations on this site. If you dont hold any jokers you cant play trumps.

Rubbish! Even Thais get the run-around with bureaucracy here and are fobbed off by unhelpful, unknowledgeable staff.

[kinmaew]

I could not count how many copies of my degree/passport other stuff and multiple signatures just to work as a teacher for a year. There must be a deeper reason for this people cant just be this inefficient and stupid as part of their nature.

[ATF]

I could not count how many copies of my degree/passport other stuff and multiple signatures just to work as a teacher for a year. There must be a deeper reason for this people cant just be this inefficient and stupid as part of their nature.

Well if you had used an agent it would have been a breeze. But if you are a teacher you probably didn't want to pay for that. Not having a go at you but teachers are underpaid in most countries. That's one of the reasons why there are so many stupid people around

[ATF]

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The best way to make Thai bureaucracy work better for you is to speak Thai excellently and understsnd the culture ecoertly. If you then apply the extra card of being the pleasant farang who is a knowledgable outsider everything will fall into place. The great majority of foreigners here cannot speak Thai well enough, know the culture only fleetingly and have no idea how to play the pleasant farang. Which is why so many people continually post their frustrations on this site. If you dont hold any jokers you cant play trumps.

Rubbish! Even Thais get the run-around with bureaucracy here and are fobbed off by unhelpful, unknowledgeable staff.

Sure you're right. Thai's with no money are told to hit the road or screwed around just like the average Falung. Thai's aren't racist in this respect.

[AYJAYDEE]

I wonder what some people would do if they couldn't complain endlessly.

As the OP I'll try to address that; For starters, complaining can easily get overdone. Similarly, compliance can get overdone. In Thailand, you have Asian-style compliance to the 10th degree. Sometimes it's good to complain, but obviously complaining too much or too loudly can be a stone drag. It's easier to stay out of everything. If a person sees another man beating a woman, or sees a child tying a dog to a tree and beating it, that person has a choice. If that person resides in N.Korea or China or Thailand, he/she will probably scoot out of the way. It that person was from a farang country, he/she would probably speak up. Same goes for bus or taxi drivers driving crazily. The list could go on ad infinitum.

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Good point, but Thai bureaucracy takes added efforts to make things difficult for farang. It's the bureaucrats' way of asserting domination. Not in every scenario, but often enough to show a pattern.

lol! addressing the fact of endless farang complaining by further complaining!!

[namdocmai]

To annoy them back i also became a bureaucrat. Sometimes i change money at banks outside the tourist area's. You won't believe how many paperwork i have to do to get some euro's changed.

To speed up the process the employee's sometimes only let me fill in the amount of money to be changed but then i like to be the bureaucrat myself and want to fill in all the questions on the papers. That takes loads of time and i even ask them questions about how to use the paper. I do that to annoy them, if i change euro's in Siam paragon that is a 10 seconds job, at a normal bank it takes 15 minutes.

Sometimes they even ask my profession, if i am married, where i am from (i gave my passport allready).

Also the Thai immigration is very slow, it can easy take 2 hours before they will give you a stamp for 30 more days and that costs 2000 baht.

[ATF]

To annoy them back i also became a bureaucrat. Sometimes i change money at banks outside the tourist area's. You won't believe how many paperwork i have to do to get some euro's changed.

To speed up the process the employee's sometimes only let me fill in the amount of money to be changed but then i like to be the bureaucrat myself and want to fill in all the questions on the papers. That takes loads of time and i even ask them questions about how to use the paper. I do that to annoy them, if i change euro's in Siam paragon that is a 10 seconds job, at a normal bank it takes 15 minutes.

Sometimes they even ask my profession, if i am married, where i am from (i gave my passport allready).

Also the Thai immigration is very slow, it can easy take 2 hours before they will give you a stamp for 30 more days and that costs 2000 baht.

Turning a negative into a positive is a very powerful psychological tool. I believe you will live a long and stress free life!

[boomerangutang]

I don't believe in 'getting back.' It's better to calmly discuss issues with bureaucrats.

Try to reason with the ones who make things difficult, and see if we can find a way to make things a bit more reasonable. It's not just for you and me, but for others who face quagmires later on.

If they discuss such things at all, they'll start by saying, 'it's not up to me. THESE ARE THE RULES. They are passed down to me from higher ups.' Yes, BUT ALL RULES COME FROM PEOPLE. They're not carved in marble by the Thunder God of Bureaucrats. Ask to speak to their superiors. If they're also automatons, then ask to speak on up the ladder. I've even spoken to the Governor of my province, twice. He's a dunce, but at least he has some power to change things, doesn't he? On the other hand, if memory serves me well, he said he was powerless to change any rules, because everything was dictated from Bangkok.

Even if someone were to speak to Yingluck about making bureaucracy less difficult, she too, even when PM, would say: It's not up to me. You should go to the Ministry of _ _ _ _ _ _. Of course, if she was honest, she would suggest talking to her real boss, ...her brother, but He only meets with rich well-connected adulators, like police chiefs, at his throne room in Dubai, or wherever he happens to be holding court.

[pitrevie]

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Sorry but I have the opposite experience. I do my tax return on line, pay any excess on line and get a refund when there is one in double quick time. A few years ago my family was involved in obtaining probate, form downloaded on line and the department could not have been more helpful or efficient. I could mention a few more and I could also mention some of the private companies such as BT which you would never want to use as an illustration of how efficient a private company was. I dealt with them extensively, professionaly when they were a state enterprise and a private company and I know which one I got the better service from in my job. The private companies I deal with in Thailand have in the majority also been a nightmare with one or two very good exceptions.

[Thai at Heart]

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Sorry but I have the opposite experience. I do my tax return on line, pay any excess on line and get a refund when there is one in double quick time. A few years ago my family was involved in obtaining probate, form downloaded on line and the department could not have been more helpful or efficient. I could mention a few more and I could also mention some of the private companies such as BT which you would never want to use as an illustration of how efficient a private company was. I dealt with them extensively, professionaly when they were a state enterprise and a private company and I know which one I got the better service from in my job. The private companies I deal with in Thailand have in the majority also been a nightmare with one or two very good exceptions.

You are right. Some govt departments are very efficient. But note, the tax dept is not principally for Thais obviously.

Private companies in Thailand arent in a competitive environment so don't gbeba damn about their clients.

[AYJAYDEE]

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Sorry but I have the opposite experience. I do my tax return on line, pay any excess on line and get a refund when there is one in double quick time. A few years ago my family was involved in obtaining probate, form downloaded on line and the department could not have been more helpful or efficient. I could mention a few more and I could also mention some of the private companies such as BT which you would never want to use as an illustration of how efficient a private company was. I dealt with them extensively, professionaly when they were a state enterprise and a private company and I know which one I got the better service from in my job. The private companies I deal with in Thailand have in the majority also been a nightmare with one or two very good exceptions.

You are right. Some govt departments are very efficient. But note, the tax dept is not principally for Thais obviously.

Private companies in Thailand arent in a competitive environment so don't gbeba damn about their clients.

not in a competitive environment?? ever hear of exports?

[Sheryl]

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Yes, much of this is universal. And there are many worse places.

The Indian sub-continent comes to mind....until/unless you have tangled with that, you haven't earned your stripes, bureacracy-wise. People bring stoves and food supplies with them while on line there, and for good reason. Whole families pitch in taking turns in what is understood to be a multi-day (if not week) endeavor. And that's for routine stuff...

While most of what was written is in my experience true (though hardly special to Thailand) I don't agree with :

">>> No Thai person questions bureaucracy. If a bureaucrat says something has to be done. That's it. Talking back to a bureaucrat is considered akin to talking back to a monk."

There is no comparison between attitudes towards bureaucrats and monks. And I have seen plenty of Thais question bureaucrats. Not "talk back to" of course, but politely question.

Being rude to bureaucrats is a bad idea anywhere in the world. In Thailand the threshold for being considered rude is a lot lower than in most places and there is also the all-important "face" issue to be danced around. But as long as that is all understood, no problem to question.

[Sandman77]

Google transparency international

What rank have Thailand in the list?

[boomerangutang]

name change suggestion:

Thailand to; Maidailand.

Nearly every time I speak with bureaucrats, I hear 'mai dai' over and over.

I wouldn't be surprised if 'mai dai' is the first word Thais speak when coming out of the womb.

[Berkshire]

Hasn't the OP just described government bureaucracy EVERYWHERE? If it's fast and efficient, it wouldn't qualify as a government agency.

Sorry but I have the opposite experience. I do my tax return on line, pay any excess on line and get a refund when there is one in double quick time. A few years ago my family was involved in obtaining probate, form downloaded on line and the department could not have been more helpful or efficient. I could mention a few more and I could also mention some of the private companies such as BT which you would never want to use as an illustration of how efficient a private company was. I dealt with them extensively, professionaly when they were a state enterprise and a private company and I know which one I got the better service from in my job. The private companies I deal with in Thailand have in the majority also been a nightmare with one or two very good exceptions.

I'm not sure why you're trying to argue the point. Do you know why communism failed? It's not just corruption, but the fact that government-run enterprises are inherently inefficient. The lack of a profit motive, lifetime employment, entrenched entitlement mentality, etc. You can certainly find exceptions here and there. But I can give you many more examples of woefully run government agencies in the US that are an embarrassment, considering the amount of resources that they have. Just in the news lately is the US Department of Veteran Affairs. Vets dying while waiting for medical care. You can keep arguing the point, but it's a fact that private companies will "generally" be more efficient than public agencies.