Ideas on a passive energy house

[brufi]

I plan to build a house later this year in Amant-Charoen and I want it as energy efficient and cool (temperature) as possible, if possible be a passive energy house concerning active cooling.

I would prefer to build it with steel-foam-panels as they are used for coldstorage or industrial roofing in Germany both for walls and roof and high insulation windows (triple glass, argon filled, good UV coating with high barrier frames with a K-value of 0.4 instead of 10 or so for standard Thai single pane Windows.) Such do not seem to be available so I would get them from Germany where I have a great factory source.

House cooling with air cooled through a pipe system in the ground 1. 5m below, blowing that air under the ealing into the rooms.

- Would the sandwich panels and building expertise be available in Thailand?

- would high insulation Windows and doors be available in Thailand?

- Any suggestions (including info on Thai low energy houses) for adaptation to local, ideally more ecological materials?

- Any idea if ants eat the PA foam in the panels?

Thanks for your input and ideas.

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[Crossy]

Interesting concept brufi.

The first thing to say is this will not save you money, you can buy a lot of aircon for the costs of non-conventional construction particularly if you're importing materials.

Can't really help with local source materials although they do build cold-storage units here, so the panels should be available. Plenty of window companies too, but triple-glazed argon-filled units may be outside their comfort zone.

As far as building something like this as a home, you're going to have a hard (but ultimately rewarding) time, finding a local contractor who's willing to go outside the box will be your major issue. Do you have engineering / construction drawings of something similar that you can hawk around the local builders to give them an idea what you intend doing?

My major issue with this type of construction is that they often end up looking like what they are, refrigerated containers, do you want to live in a square box? Please do something pleasing to the eye.

To keep the costs in check, rather than trying to insulate and cool the whole place why not concentrate on the rooms you really want to keep cool (mainly the bedrooms)?

Our place is not insulated to anything like that standard, we have little aircon (bedrooms only). But green shading (trees) and lots of ventilation coupled with high (5m) ceilings, assorted fans and attic ventilators keep things tolerable, OK it's not below ambient, but the shading and breeze is free.

EDIT A thought, if you can source the panels locally why not go for a conventional (in Thailand) pole-and-beam structure (that any contractor will be comfortable with) and replace the brick / block infill with high-insulation panels, could end up being the best of both worlds?

[Naam]

high insulation windows (triple glass, argon filled, good UV coating with high barrier frames with a K-value of 0.4 instead of 10 or so for standard Thai single pane Windows

a pure waste of money in Thailand where "delta t" (temperature difference) outdoor/indoor is only 5-8ºC as opposed to continental Europe where "δt" can be up to 55ºC during winters.

prefer to build it with steel-foam-panels as they are used for coldstorage

would be optimal insulation but a nightmare without conventional airconditioning.

House cooling with air cooled through a pipe system in the ground 1. 5m below, blowing that air under the ealing into the rooms.

that system is used for heating in cold countries. but again prevailing "δt" in Thailand is not high enough to provide any real cooling effect.

sorry for being such a spoil-sport

[Crossy]

As usual (mostly) sense from Naam, a man who likes to be in Arctic conditions, listen to him.

[Naam]

As usual (mostly) sense from Naam, a man who likes to be in Arctic conditions, listen to him.

the "arctic conditions" are a misconception and the amount of my electricity bill is misleading without taking into consideration what size of area i am trying to maintain at a comfortable temperature averaging 26.5ºC.

an exception is the master bedroom which i am cooling down to 18ºC before i go to bed. but before i settle on mattress and pillow, aircon is completely switched off and the room warms up slowly in line with my body's demand.

[splitlid]

_{those white telecom containers you see here(usually next to a tower), are insulated the exact same way. Hi density sandwich panels.}

_{They are made here.}

_{However, every container you see will be air-conditioned, ok the equipment inside is producing a lot of heat and needs to be cooled.}

_{but, believe me with no equipment installed, and the a/c off, it is as hot as outside, inside.}

[trogers]

Reminds me of the question - "Can one chill food in a refrigerator that is not plugged in?"...

[Naam]

Reminds me of the question - "Can one chill food in a refrigerator that is not plugged in?"...

a number of people are not aware what kind of heat is created inside a home by electric appliances, lighting and last not least by human bodies (300btu/h / 75kg weight, person relaxing and up to 500btu/h person doing physical work).

[trogers]

Reminds me of the question - "Can one chill food in a refrigerator that is not plugged in?"...

a number of people are not aware what kind of heat is created inside a home by electric appliances, lighting and last not least by human bodies (300btu/h / 75kg weight, person relaxing and up to 500btu/h person doing physical work).

Besides heat, the human body respires humid air, and the increase in humidity in the enclosed space needs natural ventilation to remove without using the ac. Doing so introduce hot outside air into the room...and we are back to square one...

[trogers]

There is no need to import if you are still planning to go ahead with erecting a thermal shell enclosure. There are contractors here building commercial cold and chill rooms.

http://www.thaiisowall.com/about.php?lang=2

[consat]

Hi Brufi,

"Passive energy house", way to go. I am building my house right now as we speak. At the moment we are working on the second storey roof beam framing, and rain gutters.

I am building my house by myself and a couple of masons. Workers are hard to come by in this area. I am situated just outside Pattaya in "Banglamung".

The material that I am using is 3D EPS panel. There is a factory about 3 km away from my location, so its very convenient.

These panels are technically referred to SCIP (structural concrete insulated panels). I am using the 2 inch EPS foam sandwiched between welded mesh panels both sides, with a space of about 20 mm either sides, and linked with welded truss wires. Cost ex works is about 500 Baht / sq meter. If you ever visit Pattaya, u can visit my build.

As for the Induced air, I have buried an 8" corrugated PE flexible pipe around the perimeter of the house. It slopes down from the intake , an up to the outflow, and is about 3 meters deep at the deepest part. My design is based on the "EARTH AIR TUBE" research, you can find them on the internet. The pipe has a saw cut through the high ridges on the bottom side, to allow for moisture to dissipate. The pipe was wrapped with one way GEOTEX membrane, to prevent any ingress of soil etc. The Geotex membrane was bought in Bangkok.

It took me several months to locate most supplies, but now that I have all the info, you can feel free to contact me on any issues. I wish you were closer to my location, then I could have offered to build the house for you. I am an engineer, and a licenced Thai contractor, and so have done all designs and systems by myself. I do not want to elaborate on windows and airconditioning, as it will be too long a post, but in passive design we rarely design for airconditioning. I basically intend to attack the Humidity head on, as thats the biggest problem in creating a comfort zone. I am looking at installing a backup "Dehumidifier" if the earth air system cannot get rid of most of the humidity. Other options are installing an ERV (energy recovery ventillator).

In the meantime, all the best with your plans.

Attached are pics of the Earth air tube before, and after wrapped, and laying in the trench. Others are of the house, and the panel walls.

I can be contacted by email at :

email removed per forum rules, please PM

Edited May 21, 2014 by Crossy

[Naam]

Consat, i live quite close and would appreciate very much to visit your site and perhaps meet you. would that be possible?

[Naam]

sorry, double posting.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Naam

[brufi]

Thank you very, much for your insightful answers.

For wall construction I agree there are better ways than sandwich panels but I think it is the best way for roofing as they do need very little structural support and prevent lot of heat influx especially with wide shading overhangs.

CONSAT, the earth air tube and your application of it is intreaguing and may be exactly what I am looking for.

I will send you a PM and take the chance to visit asap, may be in late June.

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[noodle]

Consat, did you make a study of or find some data about the subsoil temperature in your location?

[worgeordie]

If you have the space around your house you need to plant a lot

of trees, shrubs around it they can lower the temperature in the

house, we have no A/C and you can feel the difference when you

come in from outside.

I don't know about ants or termites eating the foam insulation,but

i am sure rats would make a nice home there,depending on how

thick it will be.

I think trees and plenty of ventilation is the best way to go,as this

is the way Thais have lived before they started to live in concrete

boxes,called Condo's

regards worgeordie

[Swelters]

Most of the western ideas for passive design simply do not work in Thailand. Evaporative cooling, underground heat sinks, night sky radiation are all ineffective here because of the humidity and limited seasonal range of temperature. Underground temperatures are 29-30 deg which won't cool anything. Absolute shade (eg from trees which grow fast here) but most especially by building aspect and shading decks, thermal mass (masonry/concrete, which I recommend over insulation), and no day ventilation will prevent interior temperatures from going more than a degree or two above the daily average (for Bangkok say 31 deg in the present month of May). You can live with this by dressing lightly or not at all and using local fans. You will probably use limited aircon during hot nights (fan setting=lo, temp at 25 or lower, do not use economy setting) . These approaches work for both houses and condos. Your hot season electric bill will be maybe 30% higher than in the cool season, but not the 300% you'd face by ignoring these rules, especally the sun aspect.

East or west facing sun exposed rooms with no overhangs or decks and lots of windows are a dreadful mistake.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Swelters

[consat]

Consat, did you make a study of or find some data about the subsoil temperature in your location?

Noodle,

Basically all the info is from the "university of the Internet", I have read hours and hours of stuff, till I came across this website called BUILD IT SOLAR,

url: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/passive_cooling.htm.

Under the subtitle Earth Tubes, there is a world of information, my design is based on:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthtubeNotes.htm

research this site, and under cooling, there is every known cooling system on earth discussed, you wont need to go any further.

I wish every one interested finds what they want whether it is HVAC or just basic passive house designs.

Consat

[consat]

Consat, i live quite close and would appreciate very much to visit your site and perhaps meet you. would that be possible?

Naam,

Sorry if I have not replied to your post, and yes feel free to visit. PM me for details/ location

[ArranP]

Consat, i live quite close and would appreciate very much to visit your site and perhaps meet you. would that be possible?

Hi Brufi,

"Passive energy house", way to go. I am building my house right now as we speak. At the moment we are working on the second storey roof beam framing, and rain gutters.

I am building my house by myself and a couple of masons. Workers are hard to come by in this area. I am situated just outside Pattaya in "Banglamung".

The material that I am using is 3D EPS panel. There is a factory about 3 km away from my location, so its very convenient.

These panels are technically referred to SCIP (structural concrete insulated panels). I am using the 2 inch EPS foam sandwiched between welded mesh panels both sides, with a space of about 20 mm either sides, and linked with welded truss wires. Cost ex works is about 500 Baht / sq meter. If you ever visit Pattaya, u can visit my build.

As for the Induced air, I have buried an 8" corrugated PE flexible pipe around the perimeter of the house. It slopes down from the intake , an up to the outflow, and is about 3 meters deep at the deepest part. My design is based on the "EARTH AIR TUBE" research, you can find them on the internet. The pipe has a saw cut through the high ridges on the bottom side, to allow for moisture to dissipate. The pipe was wrapped with one way GEOTEX membrane, to prevent any ingress of soil etc. The Geotex membrane was bought in Bangkok.

It took me several months to locate most supplies, but now that I have all the info, you can feel free to contact me on any issues. I wish you were closer to my location, then I could have offered to build the house for you. I am an engineer, and a licenced Thai contractor, and so have done all designs and systems by myself. I do not want to elaborate on windows and airconditioning, as it will be too long a post, but in passive design we rarely design for airconditioning. I basically intend to attack the Humidity head on, as thats the biggest problem in creating a comfort zone. I am looking at installing a backup "Dehumidifier" if the earth air system cannot get rid of most of the humidity. Other options are installing an ERV (energy recovery ventillator).

In the meantime, all the best with your plans.

Attached are pics of the Earth air tube before, and after wrapped, and laying in the trench. Others are of the house, and the panel walls.

I can be contacted by email at :

email removed per forum rules, please PM

im looking at using an earth air tube as an inlet for air into the house, and combining this with a solar chimney to suck the air out.

how is your earth air tube, does it make a difference ? cooler air ?