To the world: Please don't become part of Thailand's internal affairs problem

[wow64]

To the world press......

But you cannot respond.

[ParadiseLost]

North Korea, Burma, South Africa in the 80's and Nazi Germany said very similar things.

Did they? Love to see some examples.

South African President Botha, 1985 'Rubicon' speech, which ultimately led to his government's demise:

The speech President Botha gave on August 15 was screened live to a world audience of more than 200-million. Instead of a heroic leader renouncing apartheid, they saw "an old president's twisted, hectoring image", as Financial Times journalist Patti Waldmeir put it, making it difficult to listen to what he was saying.

"Don't push us too far," he warned at one point with a wagging finger, confirming the stereotype of the ugly, irredeemable apartheid politician. Instead of a short, well-rehearsed statement with a core message, he delivered a long, rambling harangue.

With South Africa so financially vulnerable, the Rubicon speech was an unmitigated disaster. Chase Manhattan announced it would no longer roll over loans to South Africa. Other banks quickly followed suit. With two-thirds of its foreign debt being short-term, South Africa was forced to default and declare a unilateral moratorium on foreign debt. These debts were later rescheduled, but South Africa's ability to raise foreign loans had received a mortal blow.

Source: mg.co.za/article/2012-10-26-00-the-day-apartheid-started-dying

Edited May 23, 2014 by ParadiseLost

[icare999]

the USA in particular should keep their interfering nose out of it totally as should rest of world USA in particular have caused more deaths and problems by putting their big nose where it does not belong. They adel bathed and hated by most of world and only yeti involved to save their own interests. I and many others hate them for deaths and misery they have caused.

And yet they continue in Ukraine where quite rightly the people of Crimea don't want anything to do with fascist regime in Kiev that USA put in power. ThE USA are hypercritical bastards having invoked a lot of military coup's when it suited their interests

Anyway USA europe and rest wont do anything since they are has been powers and sooner they realise that the better

[SICHONSTEVE]

Wouldn't it be helpful for once if the US and that quite ineffective outfit, the UN actually understood a situation and supported it or at least remained neutral rather than condone it? We have been putting up with Suthep's and Jaturong's nonense for far too long and it has impacted our business and personal lives for the worse as the country suffers. So, Mr Kerry and Mr Moon, wake up and think and spare a thought for the real people who have been trying to make an honest living and have suffered for months because of this impasse. As you obviously can't help the situation, you really should keep quiet. As we say, if you are not part of the solution, then don't become part of the problem.

I read in a paper this morning that Mr Kerry has warned Thailand that it may withhold the $ 10 million loan it was just about to give to the country so I believe the yanks do have the right to voice an opinion on the recent events !

No they don't have a right of opinion and the Thai's should tell the Yanks to stuff their (bribery money/money for favours) in an uncomfortable place!!!!

Hahaha.

The USA understands perfectly well how to buy some influence. If thailand would like to become above criticism maybe they should stop taking the money.

I.e. stop being corrupt and grow some principles.

They are at last working on achieving just that thanks to Prayuth!!!!

Thanks for loading my gun BTW.

Edited May 23, 2014 by SICHONSTEVE

[mrmicbkktxl]

That is ridiculous. It is not a "Thai problem", but a problem experienced by people. A military coup, against a democratically elected government, with the same pseudo justification given as it always is, for national security, or something similar.

You seem a little confused by all of this, so let me try and help you understand what’s really going on. As a Thai person, I have a unique insight into the situation that you simply do not. You can’t appreciate our country’s current events just by reading those academic, peer-reviewed books of yours, because they rely far too much on facts and corroboration, and miss out on the nuances that define our culture and kingdom. Also, it has been well documented that the foreign press has been unduly influenced by dark forces, and I have it on good authority that most of the books and articles that attack our position were paid for by Thaksin Shinawatra. Please set aside all those lies by the Economist and the Yale University Press. Those organizations have no credibility compared to the absolutely true rumors I heard from my friend on Facebook who heard it from someone who works in a insider position of such high authority I can’t even tell you what it is.

Really?Mosts books about Thailand and whats going in Thailand are blacklisted.Because the establishment is scared to death things go public.As long some institutions in Thailand are above the law and protected by an undemocratic and biased constitution,as long Thailand goes in circles.Thaksin might be a greedy corrupt guy,but he is smart.he had to go because he was gaining to much power,he tried to take power away from the army,royalists and bkk elite.What happend now was probably long planned by suthep and army and untouchables.Maybe not now but i think in near future we will see a civil war in Thailand,because of institutions like army and others,because the poor want a bit,and the rich don't want to give

[mesquite]

There are so many things nobody is allowed to talk about in Thailand, that the Thai people are the last to know any facts or true information about their own country.

Most foreigners and foreign journalists understand far better than those Thai nationals who are drip fed propaganda and misinformation by their own government and military.

In this way, and in other ways, Thailand is quite like North Korea.

[GAZZPA]

Not a very good article. The author is very naive if he/she does not believe that the West fully understand what is going on in Thailand. Thai politics and culture are not that complicated, although it seems some would like us all to think so. I suspect that this common excuse of "you don't understand" is simply an answer to the unanswerable question of "why do you do such illogical and stupid things?".

I saw an interview on BBC news with a professor of politics who was an expert in Asian politics, particularly Thailand, he seemed to have a very clear grasp on what was going on. I have lived in Thailand for about 18 months and I never stop hearing "you don't understand", well I think I do. Thailand is corrupt to the core, everyone knows that. It starts at the top and runs right through society. This to me seems to be the core issue, everyone wants a piece of their own little pie,, the politicians see government contracts and schemes such as the rice pledging scheme and the local police see tea money as way to earn money. It's not well hidden, these are not astute business people making a huge effort to hide these things.

Also, the appearance of the rich being immune to prosecution and extradition. Such as Thaksin or the Red Bull Heir, it seems the more money you have the easier it is to get away with serious crimes even if it is publicized, the story just fades away.

Also, why is there so much referencing to Western politics? Of course the West is not perfect but lets be sensible, the democratic system in my country is certainly not broken, its not perfect but democracy is not perfect. The one thing I can say for sure is although no country is 100% free from corruption it is certainly not as obvious or common in my country.

I think the USA has a role to play in Global politics, I don't always agree with the things they do but the lets not forget the wealthier nations support global growth and offer favorable terms to the countries in the East such as reduction in import duty, and also financial aid for projects. In my humble opinion these policies and moving a lot of business to the east for manufacturing is what has sparked the growth and rise in wealth in the Eastern countries.

So, you can't have it both ways,, take the business, take the aid and take the support but tell them to shut up and mind their own business when your countries democratic system falls over, be reasonable.

I don't see the US doing anything but expressing opinion right now and potentially pulling military support, not exactly super scary I'm sure.

I genuinely hope that Thailand fixes itself and that sensible reform takes place to make way for fair and corrupt free elections. But I fear that this is just another Thai cycle where the majority win the election but the minority don't understand that they have to accept they lost,, thats democracy. I think it is a lack of understanding and will be very difficult to shake. If the next government turn out to be as corrupt and start pilfering money form the people then the NACC need to step in, gather evidence, make arrests and the courts need to prosecute.

Hong Kong created the ICAC some years ago when it had huge issues with corruption. The ICAC were given very serious power and spent a long time cleaning house. People soon got the message and now HK has a clean system where corruption is frowned upon at any level.

So, lets hope Thailand really is on the way to repair, in the meantime if the USA, EU and other Western Countries express opinion well,, that's life.

[Roadman]

Take a bow Khun Pornpimol Kanchanalak on a very well written opinion. One would wish to see this sort of factual commentary on Thai politics on world networks like BCC rather than the absolute garbage from Thaksin lackey's like Giles what's his name being spouted yesterday.

[JoeLing]

................. In fact, its energy would have been better spent in trying to locate more than 200 kidnapped Nigerian girls and bringing the kidnappers to justice.

That's exactly what that drug dealer in Amsterdam said - "Stop wasting your time and catch some real criminals"

[digibum]

Wouldn't it be helpful for once if the US and that quite ineffective outfit, the UN actually understood a situation and supported it or at least remained neutral rather than condone it? We have been putting up with Suthep's and Jaturong's nonense for far too long and it has impacted our business and personal lives for the worse as the country suffers. So, Mr Kerry and Mr Moon, wake up and think and spare a thought for the real people who have been trying to make an honest living and have suffered for months because of this impasse. As you obviously can't help the situation, you really should keep quiet. As we say, if you are not part of the solution, then don't become part of the problem.

I read in a paper this morning that Mr Kerry has warned Thailand that it may withhold the $ 10 million loan it was just about to give to the country so I believe the yanks do have the right to voice an opinion on the recent events !

No they don't have a right of opinion and the Thai's should tell the Yanks to stuff their (bribery money/money for favours) in an uncomfortable place!!!!

It's not just a $10 million dollar loan.

If the US isn't still the biggest, it's one of Thailand's biggest trading partners and, in case you forgot, Thailand derives the majority of its GDP from exports.

The US has as much right to warn Thailand as I do to tell my mobile provider that I'll cancel my service and go with their competitor if they don't stop business practices I find objectionable. The US isn't threatening to send troops to Thailand and invade. They're a customer of Thai products. They're voicing a concern about how Thailand is being run and the threat they have to hand over Thailand is cutting off their business with the country.

That may seem like a contrived example because nobody would change their policy over losing a single customer, but let's say that instead of me being a private mobile services consumer, I was a large corporation with 50,000 employees that spends millions of dollars a year on mobile services. That's what the US is in this situation. A customer of Thailand's who spends a lot of money with Thailand and can shut off that flow of cash very quickly if it doesn't like what it sees in Thailand.

I'm not saying that the coup is right or wrong. I'm strictly addressing the fact that any country that does business with Thailand has a right to voice it's concerns.

If we were to follow SICHONSTEVE's logic, this entire website shouldn't exist because none of us have a right to express our opinions about Thai matters, no?

[edgarfriendly]

using my brain for anything other than deviousness is not my father..!

[leggo]

The sad thing about this article is that it is written by someone with a good education but who unfortunately has not escaped from the Thai physche of believing no one can understand unless they are Thai - as if Thais were a human race apart. What most of the foreign press and governments are concerned about is the rights of ordinary Thai people to have a democratically elected government, something that most mature countries guage as paramount. Most outsiders see military intervention as antidemocratic because in all the coup d'etats that have happened this has been the case and in Thailand's case the aftermaths have usually lead the country backwards. The genuine belief of the foreign press and international community of helping Thailand and its wonderful population finding its way to democracy should not be underestimated.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited May 23, 2014 by leggo

[3NUMBAS]

they just dont want their filthy washing aired in public for all the world to see ,as its heavilly stained and stinks badly

[Jeffreyake]

Also, why is there so much referencing to Western politics? Of course the West is not perfect but lets be sensible, the democratic system in my country is certainly not broken,

oh yeah? so why don't you ask US president why did federal reserve print and transfer 16 trillion dollars to foreign banks without even acknowledge the Congress or the president?

why don't you ask why all and every president of US were from two parties during 160 years?

why private institution called "Federal Reserve" prints US currency without any public control?

why John Kennedy was assassinated just 6 months after he ordered to print "united states notes" instead of "federal reserve notes"

there is no thief or corrupted official anywhere in the world who during his whole life can steal as much money as Federal Reserve, controlled by a few bankers (Rotshields, Varburgs, and others), can print in one day.

and this is what USA calls democracy to teach other nations?

sorry nobody needs such a "democracy".

why don't you understand everybody hate you and soon any American government functionary will be prosecuted all over the World as a supporter of antihuman, fascist regime.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Jeffreyake

[captspectre]

another one from the chapter "yoo farung yoo no understaahn thai culturrrr."

could care less what the thai's do to each other, if it gets to bad, I have the option to leave until they get tired of killing each other. thailand has NEVER been a democracy!

[digibum]

That is ridiculous. It is not a "Thai problem", but a problem experienced by people. A military coup, against a democratically elected government, with the same pseudo justification given as it always is, for national security, or something similar.

You seem a little confused by all of this, so let me try and help you understand what’s really going on. As a Thai person, I have a unique insight into the situation that you simply do not. You can’t appreciate our country’s current events just by reading those academic, peer-reviewed books of yours, because they rely far too much on facts and corroboration, and miss out on the nuances that define our culture and kingdom. Also, it has been well documented that the foreign press has been unduly influenced by dark forces, and I have it on good authority that most of the books and articles that attack our position were paid for by Thaksin Shinawatra. Please set aside all those lies by the Economist and the Yale University Press. Those organizations have no credibility compared to the absolutely true rumors I heard from my friend on Facebook who heard it from someone who works in a insider position of such high authority I can’t even tell you what it is.

Really?Mosts books about Thailand and whats going in Thailand are blacklisted.Because the establishment is scared to death things go public.As long some institutions in Thailand are above the law and protected by an undemocratic and biased constitution,as long Thailand goes in circles.Thaksin might be a greedy corrupt guy,but he is smart.he had to go because he was gaining to much power,he tried to take power away from the army,royalists and bkk elite.What happend now was probably long planned by suthep and army and untouchables.Maybe not now but i think in near future we will see a civil war in Thailand,because of institutions like army and others,because the poor want a bit,and the rich don't want to give

Thus the crux of this whole problem. Wasn't there a thread on here recently about Thai exceptionalism?

The bottom line is that 80%+ of Thai people have two choices:

Group A, who have held power either directly or behind the scenes for decades and have done little or nothing to improve the situation for anyone else outside of their group.

Group B, who are as every bit corrupt as Group A, if not more, but sprinkle enough of it around to keep everyone happy.

There's no "Thai nuance" to that situation. It's pretty clear. It's simple human nature. Thai's aren't some special level of human achievement that can't be broken down on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

A few years back, and I think they keep repeating this poll, they did a poll where some overwhelming majority of Thai people said they didn't mind corruption as long as they benefitted from it. Us westerners pull that out to show how corrupt Thai culture is at its core but, if all you know is Group A and Group B, even that is a perfectly logical choice. If corruption is the norm in politics, the government, etc, the best you can hope for is to at least benefit in some way from it. It doesn't mean that the people themselves are corrupt. It just means that if you just accept that it's corrupt, your only desire is to at least get something out of it.

The people who don't understand Thaksin's popularity need to forget about the corruption and focus on how you would see it if you had the above choices. Likewise, it's easy to see the poor hillbilly's as being too dumb to vote for the right choice if your worldview is based in the fact that you benefit from cheap, uneducated labor.

We, as expats and tourists, actually benefit from this situation and are poor judges of what's right or wrong in Thailand. As soon as I heard about the coup my first reaction was to check exchange rates and pump my fist at the weakening Thai baht because my income sources are in dollars. The relatively low cost of living in Thailand is predicated on the fact that neither Group A or Group B is interested in benefitting the whole Thai economy. Most of us would have been priced out of Thailand long ago if the country was actually doing anything other than funneling large amounts of money to a relatively small number of people.

The only way out for Thailand, over the long term, is for someone who doesn't represent Group A or Group B to bravely take a stand. Sadly, that person stands no chance of dying a natural death. Just as patriots and civil rights leaders have been assassinated in western countries, someone in Thailand needs to be willing to chuck the whole corrupt system out the window. There are very few countries where power was ripped from the powerful and turned back over to the people where blood didn't need to be spilled. That's the difference between Thai democracy and western democracy. Thais have never paid the price. They don't cherish democracy. They don't understand it as a fundamental human right.

It's hard for us foreigners to understand the Thai mentality because someone already paid that price for us. We grew up expecting it. And it's hard for Thais to understand our mentality because they haven't yet paid the price.

To really, really understand, I had to see my wife adapt to US culture. I still remember the first time a late night talk show host ripped on Obama and my wife's jaw dropped. She simply could not fathom that this guy was not going to be arrested the next day. Or imagine the shock of a Thai seeing the rule of law being applied equally who has only known corruption. Not that the US is democracy nirvana. It's not. But compared to what Thais call democracy, it's light years away.

[digibum]

Also, why is there so much referencing to Western politics? Of course the West is not perfect but lets be sensible, the democratic system in my country is certainly not broken,

oh yeah? so why don't you ask US president why did federal reserve print and transfer 16 trillion dollars to foreign banks without even acknowledge the Congress or the president?

why don't you ask why all and every president of US were from two parties during 160 years?

why private institution called "Federal Reserve" prints US currency without any public control?

why John Kennedy was assassinated just 6 months after he ordered to print "united states notes" instead of "federal reserve notes"

there is no thief or corrupted official anywhere in the world who during his whole life can steal as much money as Federal Reserve, controlled by a few bankers (Rotshields, Varburgs, and others), can print in one day.

and this is what USA calls democracy to teach other nations?

sorry nobody needs such a "democracy".

why don't you understand everybody hate you and soon any American government functionary will be prosecuted all over the World as a supporter of antihuman, fascist regime.

I hate to break the news to you but the tin in your tinfoil hat was made by the illuminati.

[beautifulthailand99]

Wouldn't it be helpful for once if the US and that quite ineffective outfit, the UN actually understood a situation and supported it or at least remained neutral rather than condone it? We have been putting up with Suthep's and Jaturong's nonense for far too long and it has impacted our business and personal lives for the worse as the country suffers. So, Mr Kerry and Mr Moon, wake up and think and spare a thought for the real people who have been trying to make an honest living and have suffered for months because of this impasse. As you obviously can't help the situation, you really should keep quiet. As we say, if you are not part of the solution, then don't become part of the problem.

I read in a paper this morning that Mr Kerry has warned Thailand that it may withhold the $ 10 million loan it was just about to give to the country so I believe the yanks do have the right to voice an opinion on the recent events !

No they don't have a right of opinion and the Thai's should tell the Yanks to stuff their (bribery money/money for favours) in an uncomfortable place!!!!

It's not just a $10 million dollar loan.

If the US isn't still the biggest, it's one of Thailand's biggest trading partners and, in case you forgot, Thailand derives the majority of its GDP from exports.

The US has as much right to warn Thailand as I do to tell my mobile provider that I'll cancel my service and go with their competitor if they don't stop business practices I find objectionable. The US isn't threatening to send troops to Thailand and invade. They're a customer of Thai products. They're voicing a concern about how Thailand is being run and the threat they have to hand over Thailand is cutting off their business with the country.

That may seem like a contrived example because nobody would change their policy over losing a single customer, but let's say that instead of me being a private mobile services consumer, I was a large corporation with 50,000 employees that spends millions of dollars a year on mobile services. That's what the US is in this situation. A customer of Thailand's who spends a lot of money with Thailand and can shut off that flow of cash very quickly if it doesn't like what it sees in Thailand.

I'm not saying that the coup is right or wrong. I'm strictly addressing the fact that any country that does business with Thailand has a right to voice it's concerns.

If we were to follow SICHONSTEVE's logic, this entire website shouldn't exist because none of us have a right to express our opinions about Thai matters, no?

America would rightly fear pushing Thailand into the warm embrace of the Chinese to do anything more than scold and wag it's finger.

[beautifulthailand99]

That is ridiculous. It is not a "Thai problem", but a problem experienced by people. A military coup, against a democratically elected government, with the same pseudo justification given as it always is, for national security, or something similar.

You seem a little confused by all of this, so let me try and help you understand what’s really going on. As a Thai person, I have a unique insight into the situation that you simply do not. You can’t appreciate our country’s current events just by reading those academic, peer-reviewed books of yours, because they rely far too much on facts and corroboration, and miss out on the nuances that define our culture and kingdom. Also, it has been well documented that the foreign press has been unduly influenced by dark forces, and I have it on good authority that most of the books and articles that attack our position were paid for by Thaksin Shinawatra. Please set aside all those lies by the Economist and the Yale University Press. Those organizations have no credibility compared to the absolutely true rumors I heard from my friend on Facebook who heard it from someone who works in a insider position of such high authority I can’t even tell you what it is.

Really?Mosts books about Thailand and whats going in Thailand are blacklisted.Because the establishment is scared to death things go public.As long some institutions in Thailand are above the law and protected by an undemocratic and biased constitution,as long Thailand goes in circles.Thaksin might be a greedy corrupt guy,but he is smart.he had to go because he was gaining to much power,he tried to take power away from the army,royalists and bkk elite.What happend now was probably long planned by suthep and army and untouchables.Maybe not now but i think in near future we will see a civil war in Thailand,because of institutions like army and others,because the poor want a bit,and the rich don't want to give

Thus the crux of this whole problem. Wasn't there a thread on here recently about Thai exceptionalism?

The bottom line is that 80%+ of Thai people have two choices:

Group A, who have held power either directly or behind the scenes for decades and have done little or nothing to improve the situation for anyone else outside of their group.

Group B, who are as every bit corrupt as Group A, if not more, but sprinkle enough of it around to keep everyone happy.

There's no "Thai nuance" to that situation. It's pretty clear. It's simple human nature. Thai's aren't some special level of human achievement that can't be broken down on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

A few years back, and I think they keep repeating this poll, they did a poll where some overwhelming majority of Thai people said they didn't mind corruption as long as they benefitted from it. Us westerners pull that out to show how corrupt Thai culture is at its core but, if all you know is Group A and Group B, even that is a perfectly logical choice. If corruption is the norm in politics, the government, etc, the best you can hope for is to at least benefit in some way from it. It doesn't mean that the people themselves are corrupt. It just means that if you just accept that it's corrupt, your only desire is to at least get something out of it.

The people who don't understand Thaksin's popularity need to forget about the corruption and focus on how you would see it if you had the above choices. Likewise, it's easy to see the poor hillbilly's as being too dumb to vote for the right choice if your worldview is based in the fact that you benefit from cheap, uneducated labor.

We, as expats and tourists, actually benefit from this situation and are poor judges of what's right or wrong in Thailand. As soon as I heard about the coup my first reaction was to check exchange rates and pump my fist at the weakening Thai baht because my income sources are in dollars. The relatively low cost of living in Thailand is predicated on the fact that neither Group A or Group B is interested in benefitting the whole Thai economy. Most of us would have been priced out of Thailand long ago if the country was actually doing anything other than funneling large amounts of money to a relatively small number of people.

The only way out for Thailand, over the long term, is for someone who doesn't represent Group A or Group B to bravely take a stand. Sadly, that person stands no chance of dying a natural death. Just as patriots and civil rights leaders have been assassinated in western countries, someone in Thailand needs to be willing to chuck the whole corrupt system out the window. There are very few countries where power was ripped from the powerful and turned back over to the people where blood didn't need to be spilled. That's the difference between Thai democracy and western democracy. Thais have never paid the price. They don't cherish democracy. They don't understand it as a fundamental human right.

It's hard for us foreigners to understand the Thai mentality because someone already paid that price for us. We grew up expecting it. And it's hard for Thais to understand our mentality because they haven't yet paid the price.

To really, really understand, I had to see my wife adapt to US culture. I still remember the first time a late night talk show host ripped on Obama and my wife's jaw dropped. She simply could not fathom that this guy was not going to be arrested the next day. Or imagine the shock of a Thai seeing the rule of law being applied equally who has only known corruption. Not that the US is democracy nirvana. It's not. But compared to what Thais call democracy, it's light years away.

This should be pinned and made a sticky the best concise analysis I've ever read on Thai politics particuarly your comment below. Now if only fine words could butter parsnips as well...

Most of us would have been priced out of Thailand long ago if the country was actually doing anything other than funneling large amounts of money to a relatively small number of people.

[Jeffreyake]

Also, why is there so much referencing to Western politics? Of course the West is not perfect but lets be sensible, the democratic system in my country is certainly not broken,

oh yeah? so why don't you ask US president why did federal reserve print and transfer 16 trillion dollars to foreign banks without even acknowledge the Congress or the president?

why don't you ask why all and every president of US were from two parties during 160 years?

why private institution called "Federal Reserve" prints US currency without any public control?

why John Kennedy was assassinated just 6 months after he ordered to print "united states notes" instead of "federal reserve notes"

there is no thief or corrupted official anywhere in the world who during his whole life can steal as much money as Federal Reserve, controlled by a few bankers (Rotshields, Varburgs, and others), can print in one day.

and this is what USA calls democracy to teach other nations?

sorry nobody needs such a "democracy".

why don't you understand everybody hate you and soon any American government functionary will be prosecuted all over the World as a supporter of antihuman, fascist regime.

I hate to break the news to you but the tin in your tinfoil hat was made by the illuminati.

oh yeah this is most popular manipulative answer of all. If you can't refute the arguments - just discredit the speaker.

US propaganda machine (thy call it "independent media") use the same technique to neutralize opponents of democrat-republican clique

could you please explain me, why USA is the only country in the World which currency is printed by private institution controlled by a few individuals?

If you do this I will present you my tinfoil hat

[PuaSai]

Kind of ironic those countries governments adding their pathetic two cents of big brother crap have messed up their own countries. I agree, stay out of Thailand's business. They can handle it fine.

[PaullyW]

That is ridiculous. It is not a "Thai problem", but a problem experienced by people. A military coup, against a democratically elected government, with the same pseudo justification given as it always is, for national security, or something similar.

You seem a little confused by all of this, so let me try and help you understand what’s really going on. As a Thai person, I have a unique insight into the situation that you simply do not. You can’t appreciate our country’s current events just by reading those academic, peer-reviewed books of yours, because they rely far too much on facts and corroboration, and miss out on the nuances that define our culture and kingdom. Also, it has been well documented that the foreign press has been unduly influenced by dark forces, and I have it on good authority that most of the books and articles that attack our position were paid for by Thaksin Shinawatra. Please set aside all those lies by the Economist and the Yale University Press. Those organizations have no credibility compared to the absolutely true rumors I heard from my friend on Facebook who heard it from someone who works in a insider position of such high authority I can’t even tell you what it is.

Really?Mosts books about Thailand and whats going in Thailand are blacklisted.Because the establishment is scared to death things go public.As long some institutions in Thailand are above the law and protected by an undemocratic and biased constitution,as long Thailand goes in circles.Thaksin might be a greedy corrupt guy,but he is smart.he had to go because he was gaining to much power,he tried to take power away from the army,royalists and bkk elite.What happend now was probably long planned by suthep and army and untouchables.Maybe not now but i think in near future we will see a civil war in Thailand,because of institutions like army and others,because the poor want a bit,and the rich don't want to give

Thus the crux of this whole problem. Wasn't there a thread on here recently about Thai exceptionalism?

The bottom line is that 80%+ of Thai people have two choices:

Group A, who have held power either directly or behind the scenes for decades and have done little or nothing to improve the situation for anyone else outside of their group.

Group B, who are as every bit corrupt as Group A, if not more, but sprinkle enough of it around to keep everyone happy.

There's no "Thai nuance" to that situation. It's pretty clear. It's simple human nature. Thai's aren't some special level of human achievement that can't be broken down on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

A few years back, and I think they keep repeating this poll, they did a poll where some overwhelming majority of Thai people said they didn't mind corruption as long as they benefitted from it. Us westerners pull that out to show how corrupt Thai culture is at its core but, if all you know is Group A and Group B, even that is a perfectly logical choice. If corruption is the norm in politics, the government, etc, the best you can hope for is to at least benefit in some way from it. It doesn't mean that the people themselves are corrupt. It just means that if you just accept that it's corrupt, your only desire is to at least get something out of it.

The people who don't understand Thaksin's popularity need to forget about the corruption and focus on how you would see it if you had the above choices. Likewise, it's easy to see the poor hillbilly's as being too dumb to vote for the right choice if your worldview is based in the fact that you benefit from cheap, uneducated labor.

We, as expats and tourists, actually benefit from this situation and are poor judges of what's right or wrong in Thailand. As soon as I heard about the coup my first reaction was to check exchange rates and pump my fist at the weakening Thai baht because my income sources are in dollars. The relatively low cost of living in Thailand is predicated on the fact that neither Group A or Group B is interested in benefitting the whole Thai economy. Most of us would have been priced out of Thailand long ago if the country was actually doing anything other than funneling large amounts of money to a relatively small number of people.

The only way out for Thailand, over the long term, is for someone who doesn't represent Group A or Group B to bravely take a stand. Sadly, that person stands no chance of dying a natural death. Just as patriots and civil rights leaders have been assassinated in western countries, someone in Thailand needs to be willing to chuck the whole corrupt system out the window. There are very few countries where power was ripped from the powerful and turned back over to the people where blood didn't need to be spilled. That's the difference between Thai democracy and western democracy. Thais have never paid the price. They don't cherish democracy. They don't understand it as a fundamental human right.

It's hard for us foreigners to understand the Thai mentality because someone already paid that price for us. We grew up expecting it. And it's hard for Thais to understand our mentality because they haven't yet paid the price.

To really, really understand, I had to see my wife adapt to US culture. I still remember the first time a late night talk show host ripped on Obama and my wife's jaw dropped. She simply could not fathom that this guy was not going to be arrested the next day. Or imagine the shock of a Thai seeing the rule of law being applied equally who has only known corruption. Not that the US is democracy nirvana. It's not. But compared to what Thais call democracy, it's light years away.

Brilliant post, and it really deserves more likes.

If you could write this in a more scholarly way, I imagine it might find its way into major media distributors. It's an excellent piece.

[watcharacters]

the USA in particular should keep their interfering nose out of it totally as should rest of world USA in particular have caused more deaths and problems by putting their big nose where it does not belong. They adel bathed and hated by most of world and only yeti involved to save their own interests. I and many others hate them for deaths and misery they have caused.

And yet they continue in Ukraine where quite rightly the people of Crimea don't want anything to do with fascist regime in Kiev that USA put in power. ThE USA are hypercritical bastards having invoked a lot of military coup's when it suited their interests

Anyway USA europe and rest wont do anything since they are has been powers and sooner they realise that the better

.

555

[GAZZPA]

Also, why is there so much referencing to Western politics? Of course the West is not perfect but lets be sensible, the democratic system in my country is certainly not broken,

oh yeah? so why don't you ask US president why did federal reserve print and transfer 16 trillion dollars to foreign banks without even acknowledge the Congress or the president?

why don't you ask why all and every president of US were from two parties during 160 years?

why private institution called "Federal Reserve" prints US currency without any public control?

why John Kennedy was assassinated just 6 months after he ordered to print "united states notes" instead of "federal reserve notes"

there is no thief or corrupted official anywhere in the world who during his whole life can steal as much money as Federal Reserve, controlled by a few bankers (Rotshields, Varburgs, and others), can print in one day.

and this is what USA calls democracy to teach other nations?

sorry nobody needs such a "democracy".

why don't you understand everybody hate you and soon any American government functionary will be prosecuted all over the World as a supporter of antihuman, fascist regime.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble but I am not from the US, so hopefully everyone will not hate me.

I know nothing about what you are saying, but then again I don't know everything. i am sure there are Americans who can defend this. For me though, in my country democracy is not broken, it does work, as i said its not perfect and there will always be corrupt individuals and thieves,, BUT they are caught and brought to justice.

You certainly cannot bribe any official, at least not as openly as you can in Thailand. Just referring back to HK exe maple again,, when they had issues with corruption they formed the ICAC. It was made independently and has the power to investigate anybody, anywhere,, is this not an example which Thailand can learn from?

I think it is a lesson worth learning, and I see no problem in Thailand picking the "best " examples from more developed countries,,, as you say rightly say no country is perfect, just some more developed then others.

[GAZZPA]

That is ridiculous. It is not a "Thai problem", but a problem experienced by people. A military coup, against a democratically elected government, with the same pseudo justification given as it always is, for national security, or something similar.

You seem a little confused by all of this, so let me try and help you understand what’s really going on. As a Thai person, I have a unique insight into the situation that you simply do not. You can’t appreciate our country’s current events just by reading those academic, peer-reviewed books of yours, because they rely far too much on facts and corroboration, and miss out on the nuances that define our culture and kingdom. Also, it has been well documented that the foreign press has been unduly influenced by dark forces, and I have it on good authority that most of the books and articles that attack our position were paid for by Thaksin Shinawatra. Please set aside all those lies by the Economist and the Yale University Press. Those organizations have no credibility compared to the absolutely true rumors I heard from my friend on Facebook who heard it from someone who works in a insider position of such high authority I can’t even tell you what it is.

Really?Mosts books about Thailand and whats going in Thailand are blacklisted.Because the establishment is scared to death things go public.As long some institutions in Thailand are above the law and protected by an undemocratic and biased constitution,as long Thailand goes in circles.Thaksin might be a greedy corrupt guy,but he is smart.he had to go because he was gaining to much power,he tried to take power away from the army,royalists and bkk elite.What happend now was probably long planned by suthep and army and untouchables.Maybe not now but i think in near future we will see a civil war in Thailand,because of institutions like army and others,because the poor want a bit,and the rich don't want to give

Thus the crux of this whole problem. Wasn't there a thread on here recently about Thai exceptionalism?

The bottom line is that 80%+ of Thai people have two choices:

Group A, who have held power either directly or behind the scenes for decades and have done little or nothing to improve the situation for anyone else outside of their group.

Group B, who are as every bit corrupt as Group A, if not more, but sprinkle enough of it around to keep everyone happy.

There's no "Thai nuance" to that situation. It's pretty clear. It's simple human nature. Thai's aren't some special level of human achievement that can't be broken down on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

A few years back, and I think they keep repeating this poll, they did a poll where some overwhelming majority of Thai people said they didn't mind corruption as long as they benefitted from it. Us westerners pull that out to show how corrupt Thai culture is at its core but, if all you know is Group A and Group B, even that is a perfectly logical choice. If corruption is the norm in politics, the government, etc, the best you can hope for is to at least benefit in some way from it. It doesn't mean that the people themselves are corrupt. It just means that if you just accept that it's corrupt, your only desire is to at least get something out of it.

The people who don't understand Thaksin's popularity need to forget about the corruption and focus on how you would see it if you had the above choices. Likewise, it's easy to see the poor hillbilly's as being too dumb to vote for the right choice if your worldview is based in the fact that you benefit from cheap, uneducated labor.

We, as expats and tourists, actually benefit from this situation and are poor judges of what's right or wrong in Thailand. As soon as I heard about the coup my first reaction was to check exchange rates and pump my fist at the weakening Thai baht because my income sources are in dollars. The relatively low cost of living in Thailand is predicated on the fact that neither Group A or Group B is interested in benefitting the whole Thai economy. Most of us would have been priced out of Thailand long ago if the country was actually doing anything other than funneling large amounts of money to a relatively small number of people.

The only way out for Thailand, over the long term, is for someone who doesn't represent Group A or Group B to bravely take a stand. Sadly, that person stands no chance of dying a natural death. Just as patriots and civil rights leaders have been assassinated in western countries, someone in Thailand needs to be willing to chuck the whole corrupt system out the window. There are very few countries where power was ripped from the powerful and turned back over to the people where blood didn't need to be spilled. That's the difference between Thai democracy and western democracy. Thais have never paid the price. They don't cherish democracy. They don't understand it as a fundamental human right.

It's hard for us foreigners to understand the Thai mentality because someone already paid that price for us. We grew up expecting it. And it's hard for Thais to understand our mentality because they haven't yet paid the price.

To really, really understand, I had to see my wife adapt to US culture. I still remember the first time a late night talk show host ripped on Obama and my wife's jaw dropped. She simply could not fathom that this guy was not going to be arrested the next day. Or imagine the shock of a Thai seeing the rule of law being applied equally who has only known corruption. Not that the US is democracy nirvana. It's not. But compared to what Thais call democracy, it's light years away.

Balanced and fair analysis,, couldn't disagree with anything in this excellent post.

[PaullyW]

You seem a little confused by all of this, so let me try and help you understand what’s really going on. As a Thai person, I have a unique insight into the situation that you simply do not. You can’t appreciate our country’s current events just by reading those academic, peer-reviewed books of yours, because they rely far too much on facts and corroboration, and miss out on the nuances that define our culture and kingdom. Also, it has been well documented that the foreign press has been unduly influenced by dark forces, and I have it on good authority that most of the books and articles that attack our position were paid for by Thaksin Shinawatra. Please set aside all those lies by the Economist and the Yale University Press. Those organizations have no credibility compared to the absolutely true rumors I heard from my friend on Facebook who heard it from someone who works in a insider position of such high authority I can’t even tell you what it is.

Really?Mosts books about Thailand and whats going in Thailand are blacklisted.Because the establishment is scared to death things go public.As long some institutions in Thailand are above the law and protected by an undemocratic and biased constitution,as long Thailand goes in circles.Thaksin might be a greedy corrupt guy,but he is smart.he had to go because he was gaining to much power,he tried to take power away from the army,royalists and bkk elite.What happend now was probably long planned by suthep and army and untouchables.Maybe not now but i think in near future we will see a civil war in Thailand,because of institutions like army and others,because the poor want a bit,and the rich don't want to give

Thus the crux of this whole problem. Wasn't there a thread on here recently about Thai exceptionalism?

The bottom line is that 80%+ of Thai people have two choices:

Group A, who have held power either directly or behind the scenes for decades and have done little or nothing to improve the situation for anyone else outside of their group.

Group B, who are as every bit corrupt as Group A, if not more, but sprinkle enough of it around to keep everyone happy.

There's no "Thai nuance" to that situation. It's pretty clear. It's simple human nature. Thai's aren't some special level of human achievement that can't be broken down on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

A few years back, and I think they keep repeating this poll, they did a poll where some overwhelming majority of Thai people said they didn't mind corruption as long as they benefitted from it. Us westerners pull that out to show how corrupt Thai culture is at its core but, if all you know is Group A and Group B, even that is a perfectly logical choice. If corruption is the norm in politics, the government, etc, the best you can hope for is to at least benefit in some way from it. It doesn't mean that the people themselves are corrupt. It just means that if you just accept that it's corrupt, your only desire is to at least get something out of it.

The people who don't understand Thaksin's popularity need to forget about the corruption and focus on how you would see it if you had the above choices. Likewise, it's easy to see the poor hillbilly's as being too dumb to vote for the right choice if your worldview is based in the fact that you benefit from cheap, uneducated labor.

We, as expats and tourists, actually benefit from this situation and are poor judges of what's right or wrong in Thailand. As soon as I heard about the coup my first reaction was to check exchange rates and pump my fist at the weakening Thai baht because my income sources are in dollars. The relatively low cost of living in Thailand is predicated on the fact that neither Group A or Group B is interested in benefitting the whole Thai economy. Most of us would have been priced out of Thailand long ago if the country was actually doing anything other than funneling large amounts of money to a relatively small number of people.

The only way out for Thailand, over the long term, is for someone who doesn't represent Group A or Group B to bravely take a stand. Sadly, that person stands no chance of dying a natural death. Just as patriots and civil rights leaders have been assassinated in western countries, someone in Thailand needs to be willing to chuck the whole corrupt system out the window. There are very few countries where power was ripped from the powerful and turned back over to the people where blood didn't need to be spilled. That's the difference between Thai democracy and western democracy. Thais have never paid the price. They don't cherish democracy. They don't understand it as a fundamental human right.

It's hard for us foreigners to understand the Thai mentality because someone already paid that price for us. We grew up expecting it. And it's hard for Thais to understand our mentality because they haven't yet paid the price.

To really, really understand, I had to see my wife adapt to US culture. I still remember the first time a late night talk show host ripped on Obama and my wife's jaw dropped. She simply could not fathom that this guy was not going to be arrested the next day. Or imagine the shock of a Thai seeing the rule of law being applied equally who has only known corruption. Not that the US is democracy nirvana. It's not. But compared to what Thais call democracy, it's light years away.

This should be pinned and made a sticky the best concise analysis I've ever read on Thai politics particuarly your comment below. Now if only fine words could butter parsnips as well...

Most of us would have been priced out of Thailand long ago if the country was actually doing anything other than funneling large amounts of money to a relatively small number of people.

I agree. It is an absolutely fantastic post. If it were written differently, perhaps in a way that appears more scholarly (not a knock on it), it may very well make its way around the major media outlets. Very, very excellent post.

[GAZZPA]

Wouldn't it be helpful for once if the US and that quite ineffective outfit, the UN actually understood a situation and supported it or at least remained neutral rather than condone it? We have been putting up with Suthep's and Jaturong's nonense for far too long and it has impacted our business and personal lives for the worse as the country suffers. So, Mr Kerry and Mr Moon, wake up and think and spare a thought for the real people who have been trying to make an honest living and have suffered for months because of this impasse. As you obviously can't help the situation, you really should keep quiet. As we say, if you are not part of the solution, then don't become part of the problem.

I read in a paper this morning that Mr Kerry has warned Thailand that it may withhold the $ 10 million loan it was just about to give to the country so I believe the yanks do have the right to voice an opinion on the recent events !

No they don't have a right of opinion and the Thai's should tell the Yanks to stuff their (bribery money/money for favours) in an uncomfortable place!!!!

You could be right. I think the US, EU, Japan and all other Western countries should stop giving their opinions and mind their own business and leave Thailand to get on with it.

I think they should also close all trade agreements, take away and GSP entitlements for exports into western countries, stop all aid to the country and generally just shut the door on Thailand forever.

The country would collapse into poverty.

Idiot.

[rebelplatoon]

I think its a good piece. Yes, written from a point of view, but in short it says: Don't forget what this Government did to Thailand look at the facts. And Foreign Governments: Stop judging what's happening: Butt out! 75% of the people wanted this coup and are happy there is some form of peace and order, even though it does not live up to a western concept of democracy.

Sure it would have been great if that could have happened without a coup, but the politicians and the protest leaders could not play together in the sand box. Bloodshed needed to be prevented.

Did you know the Greek form of democracy had something called ostracism ? People would wrote on a piece of jar which politician they wanted out. If enough people voted for the same guy....he was a goner! I think I know who'd that have been....

Ah wait, he IS gone!

[3NUMBAS]

thai tourism sucks mucho money out of economies around the globe far more than they spend back in return except for Thai vice operations

[wandasloan]

A certain irony here from author Pauline, who almost went to jail with her mother for being a foreigner interfering in US politics and elections - $700,000 in bribes and influence peddling right inside the the White House.

I sympathise with her hypocrisy, but it's 2014 and it is now the way of the world for countries to intrude and judge and criticise and be holier than thou. Vietnam and China were both criticising Thailand this morning. Before noon today, Malaysia and Singapore were telling their citizens, "Don't go to Thailand, it's undemocratic and all guns and everything." You can regret it but you can't fight it.

And if you ARE going to fight it anyway, maybe Pauline is not your best example.

.