International alarm mounts over Thai coup

[sumtingwong]

"It is what happens when military dictatorship tries and suppress the wishes of millions of its citizens for nefarious and transparent reasons."

or more accurately you mean:

"It is what happens when a Shinawatra dictatorship tries and suppress the wishes of millions of its citizens for nefarious and transparent reasons."

[englishoak]

"It is what happens when military dictatorship tries and suppress the wishes of millions of its citizens for nefarious and transparent reasons."

or more accurately you mean:

"It is what happens when a Shinawatra dictatorship tries and suppress the wishes of millions of its citizens for nefarious and transparent reasons."

So whats the excuse the other 17 times then before the shins arrived on the scene ?

Funny theres always an excuse somewhere. Most other countries have managed to learn from history it solves nothing in the long run, seems not here. Now theres a surprise.

[Stradavarius37]

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It's a lovely dream that reconciliation is possible but it's just that a dream.

I see some posters on here saying that the reds need to be educated and blah blah blah.

Well your not going to wipe years of resentment of the yellows out ever and I'm not saying that to inflame you guys it's just a plain fact and it's been proven over and over again and will be again once an election is called.

Yingluck is yet to be convicted of any crimes and if she us found not guilty in her upcoming case don't be surprised if she runs again for PM.

All you punters that speculated that she was going to flee the country well you were all wrong on that one.

She gas dealt with all this with dignity and grace and don't be surprised if she is part of the generals plans to reach some compromise and common ground in the way forward!

You think she won't be convicted? Bartender...I'll have what he's having!

[Emptyset]

[ "Democracy Monument now -- no dramas. This may be shocking to western powers, but the reason the attacks have finally stopped is the coup d'etat. (Touch wood.)" ]

Yes and the attacks stopped because the protests stopped.

And one of the main reasons for the protests and hence the attacks was the divisiveness the 2006 Coup created.

When/if there is ever lifting of censorship, allowance of political gatherings, the chances are the violence will be worse, especially as it appears that this was simply a power grab and will result in them rigging sorry 'reforming' the election so only the Democrat or a military party can win regardless of votes.

It is what happens when military dictatorship tries and suppress the wishes of millions of its citizens for nefarious and transparent reasons.

Agree. I actually think both sides could end up back on the streets if martial law is eventually lifted. Although they might well try to enforce it right up until the next election, if it's in 15 - 18 months, and I think they'll need to. This may have just postphoned and amplified the confrontation we all thought was inevitable. Even if the two groups don't clash - and I hope they don't - I do think the military will nevertheless have to deal with increasingly troublesome (to them) protests once reds have had a time to regroup. Obviously what we've seen so far is them being willing to close down whole areas of BKK and order shopping malls shut in order to control the space, and this is faced with probably few more than 50 - 100 protesters at the moment. They seem to be focusing on the easy targets in order to scare others (see BKK Post for a video of a woman snatched via taxi, for instance). I dare say there are limits to this approach...

[Stradavarius37]

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[ "Democracy Monument now -- no dramas. This may be shocking to western powers, but the reason the attacks have finally stopped is the coup d'etat. (Touch wood.)" ]

Yes and the attacks stopped because the protests stopped.

And one of the main reasons for the protests and hence the attacks was the divisiveness the 2006 Coup created.

When/if there is ever lifting of censorship, allowance of political gatherings, the chances are the violence will be worse, especially as it appears that this was simply a power grab and will result in them rigging sorry 'reforming' the election so only the Democrat or a military party can win regardless of votes.

It is what happens when military dictatorship tries and suppress the wishes of millions of its citizens for nefarious and transparent reasons.

Agree. I actually think both sides could end up back on the streets if martial law is eventually lifted. Although they might well try to enforce it right up until the next election, if it's in 15 - 18 months, and I think they'll need to. This may have just postphoned and amplified the confrontation we all thought was inevitable. Even if the two groups don't clash - and I hope they don't - I do think the military will nevertheless have to deal with increasingly troublesome (to them) protests once reds have had a time to regroup. Obviously what we've seen so far is them being willing to close down whole areas of BKK and order shopping malls shut in order to control the space, and this is faced with probably few more than 50 - 100 protesters at the moment. They seem to be focusing on the easy targets in order to scare others (see BKK Post for a video of a woman snatched via taxi, for instance). I dare say there are limits to this approach...

I think you are underestimating and overestimating groups of folks in the same post.

[The stuttering parrot]

Stranger things have happened Stradivarius and I'm not saying she won't be convicted however in the bigger scheme of things and to appease the majority who voted for her don't discount that she might not be out of the picture .

Anyway doesn't matter there are plenty of shins around and anyone of them have the right to run and if that happens the result will be the same and the cycle starts again.

[sumtingwong]

Stranger things have happened Stradivarius and I'm not saying she won't be convicted however in the bigger scheme of things and to appease the majority who voted for her don't discount that she might not be out of the picture .

Anyway doesn't matter there are plenty of shins around and anyone of them have the right to run and if that happens the result will be the same and the cycle starts again.

Less than 50% is not a majority, never has been, never will be.

[Emptyset]

John Kerry, U.S. Secretary of State

Dear Secretary of State:

https://www.prod.facebook.com/Arnond.s/posts/10152474018747728

I wonder if there are any educated PDRC supporters that find constant letters of this standard embarassing? I suppose there must be some out there but not many otherwise you wouldn't end up with endless letters of this quality which are all pretty much interchangeable. If they'd try a little harder to get their facts right and not keep going on about "thugs" and "terrorists" all the time, they'd come off as a lot less extremist and much more credible. It's easy for anyone familiar with the situation to ignore letters like this because it doesn't try to engage with the arguments of the opposition, and contains falsehoods which are easily refuted.

I'm not saying this to deliberately try to appear "balanced" here, but I think exactly the same about Robert Amsterdam. I don't know anyone who takes him seriously and I don't know what Thaksin pays him for. His stuff only reinforces the beliefs of those who are already fully committed to the cause and are willing to believe any nonsense as long as it fits with the story they want to believe (recall the laughable white paper). If you want to win people over, you have to go and preach in the opposition's church. People like Veerapat and academics like Thongchai, Pavin et al, do a much better job of representing that side of the argument than Amsterdam and his people do, even if I don't always agree with them.

[The stuttering parrot]

Sumtinwong a landslide is a landslide and the two biggest in thai history were both by first thaksin and the second by yinglucknd that's a fact!

Like it or not it's just that simple and another dose will be handed out at the next election.

[GoodThaiGirl]

Amazing

A military dictatorship has unfurled before the eyes of an adoring public

When the whore houses reopen, the cosmetics shops will again flourish

bad time to be a mafiosi

bad time to be a farange

good time to get out, before the inflation and crime rise

one thing to be a thai trying to be white,

quite another to be seen as a well to do farange,

when the hungry out of work criminals are roaming free, looking, for you and your wallet

has anyone calculated the size of the losses to the night industry?

And I suppose you would prefer a bloody civil war with many dead while you cheer on which ever side you are for, like a rugby game.

you suppose wrong

so what are you saying then...? all farangs be careful or leave...or are you scaremongering ..

[siampolee]

Interesting to note that there seems to be little said concerning the current state of affairs in the Ukraine .One is inclined to ask why Thailand is being singled out yet the Ukraine and the Russian actions are ignored.Let us also be reminded of the tear gas attack on demonstrators in Turkey who were protesting.

Odd how certain regimes backed by certain states escape criticism yet the current Junta here is maligned despite popular feeling being behind the move and there has been little violence or bloodshed.

Those engaged in corrupt and disruptive practices from all sides of the business and political spectrum are being investigated and perhaps at last we are about to see some house cleaning of those tainted individuals who have in fact caused this current situation.

When those nations critical of this country have put their own houses in order then they will be entitled to make comments until then they should shut up or put up.

[Emptyset]

My hope is that in 6 months time - not now (that's asking too much) - army lovers will start posting on the 300th page of this thread their queries about why no other negative sounding threads have been started since this one. After all, real and meaningful change takes time.

You could quote that to anyone (Thai or Falang) living in Chun district of Phayao who has had to live under UDD rule for the last three years. The removal of their three years makes your six months a honeymoon.

Why have you singled out this district? Because they put a road sign up that said it was a red district or something? If the implication is that non-reds have been intimidated there, why do you think removing a few signs etc will make any difference? It's like in Belfast if you made them remove the loyalist/republican graffiti and signage etc, fine, but why would removing such symbols change people's beliefs and behaviour? Surely there's more to it than that? If a majority in those areas still strongly believe in the cause, removing signs won't change anything in that respect. And if it was only a minority imposing these signs on the rest, I have reason to doubt the majority felt particularly intimidated.

Don't forget these people all knew each other, ate and drank together etc, before the red/yellow divide came along. Politics isn't the be all and end all and though there probably are people that feel cowed and afraid to express their views, I doubt this is as common as some people seem to be suggesting. Of course, there definitely are firm red shirt supporters in these villages - otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about this - but there are plenty of more skeptical rural people too.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Emptyset

[sumtingwong]

Sumtinwong a landslide is a landslide and the two biggest in thai history were both by first thaksin and the second by yinglucknd that's a fact!

Like it or not it's just that simple and another dose will be handed out at the next election.

Facxt: less than 50% is not a majority, like it or not. So the majority of the Thais did not vote for the Shinawatra dictatorship, fact.

[Prbkk]

The commie red-shirts are "thugs" and "terrorists".

They gun down and bomb, grenade attack and burn down malls, of course they are "thugs" and "terrorists".

Yes these dangerous thugs must be dealt with....that's why Kinokunyia has withdrawn a number of political books from it shelves. The gatherings of people reading books outside shopping malls must have been a ruse: their real intention must have been to assault innocent shoppers with copies of 1984

[Emptyset]

Interesting to note that there seems to be little said concerning the current state of affairs in the Ukraine .One is inclined to ask why Thailand is being singled out yet the Ukraine and the Russian actions are ignored.Let us also be reminded of the tear gas attack on demonstrators in Turkey who were protesting.

Odd how certain regimes backed by certain states escape criticism yet the current Junta here is maligned despite popular feeling being behind the move and there has been little violence or bloodshed.

Those engaged in corrupt and disruptive practices from all sides of the business and political spectrum are being investigated and perhaps at last we are about to see some house cleaning of those tainted individuals who have in fact caused this current situation.

When those nations critical of this country have put their own houses in order then they will be entitled to make comments until then they should shut up or put up.

There's a lot being said about Ukraine and I think the US is far more concerned about what Russia is doing there than they are about what's happening in Thailand. Not sure which newspapers you're reading. I haven't been following Turkey closely recently but I dare say more does need to be said. Erdogan's regime, despite being elected, has clearly behaved in an unacceptably repressive and undemocratic way.

"Those engaged in corrupt and disruptive practices from all sides of the business and political spectrum are being investigated"

Haven't seen much evidence of this yet and don't expect to.

[englishoak]

Interesting to note that there seems to be little said concerning the current state of affairs in the Ukraine .One is inclined to ask why Thailand is being singled out yet the Ukraine and the Russian actions are ignored.Let us also be reminded of the tear gas attack on demonstrators in Turkey who were protesting.

Odd how certain regimes backed by certain states escape criticism yet the current Junta here is maligned despite popular feeling being behind the move and there has been little violence or bloodshed.

Those engaged in corrupt and disruptive practices from all sides of the business and political spectrum are being investigated and perhaps at last we are about to see some house cleaning of those tainted individuals who have in fact caused this current situation.

When those nations critical of this country have put their own houses in order then they will be entitled to make comments until then they should shut up or put up.

its not, this is a Thai forum not a European one.

If you want upto date info on the Ukraine situation and details its all over the media.

If you think Ukraine is being ignored you couldnt be more wrong, I get updates all the time, I would suggest its just here people are more interested being a Thai forum on things going on in Thailand.

Im not going to explain why the stance taken by most nations is against the position here, you can either work it out for yourself or do a little bit of reading, no system that is democratic in basis is going to support whats happened here, not even if they would like to.

[smutcakes]

Sumtinwong a landslide is a landslide and the two biggest in thai history were both by first thaksin and the second by yinglucknd that's a fact!

Like it or not it's just that simple and another dose will be handed out at the next election.

Facxt: less than 50% is not a majority, like it or not. So the majority of the Thais did not vote for the Shinawatra dictatorship, fact.

I know you are just flaming with your comments, but i will respond anyway.

There are a couple of facts we know, one being Shinawatra aligned parties have won the last two elections, in that they gained more votes from the voting population than any other party did- you know that is kind of how an election works. The second being that no one voted for the army dictatorship.

Anything else is pure conjecture. I know you prefer to work in conjecture and opinion because the known facts go completely against everything you say.

[sumtingwong]

So you are happy with them gunning down and grenade attacking their opposition. Are you a thug and terrorist too?

Maybe if they stuck to books instead of guns and grenades, they would not be "thugs" and "terrorists".

But you knew that already.

[englishoak]

The commie red-shirts are "thugs" and "terrorists".

They gun down and bomb, grenade attack and burn down malls, of course they are "thugs" and "terrorists".

Yes these dangerous thugs must be dealt with....that's why Kinokunyia has withdrawn a number of political books from it shelves. The gatherings of people reading books outside shopping malls must have been a ruse: their real intention must have been to assault innocent shoppers with copies of 1984

I wonder if catcher in the rye is on sale in LOS or not ?

[sumtingwong]

The Shinawatra dictatorship won the election but they did not win it with the majority of the Thai people voting for them. To say the majority of the Thai people want a Shinawatra dictatorship is not true.

[englishoak]

The Shinawatra dictatorship won the election but they did not win it with the majority of the Thai people voting for them. To say the majority of the Thai people want a Shinawatra dictatorship is not true.

if theres 100 and out of that 100% only 50% decide to cast a vote and the results come out 30% for one 20% for the other the one with 30% will still win, its called the voting majority, thats how elections work

that is why its important to cast a vote, or you dont have a say in who wins and cannot complain.

The old fallacy of its not a majority of a people is irrelevent it IS the majority of the voting population and that is all that counts.. seeing as there will always be some that wont vote for anyone or care or cannot be bothered. Thats pretty much how it works or didnt you study politics and election systems at school.?

Edited June 2, 2014 by englishoak

[Emptyset]

So you are happy with them gunning down and grenade attacking their opposition. Are you a thug and terrorist too?

Maybe if they stuck to books instead of guns and grenades, they would not be "thugs" and "terrorists".

But you knew that already.

So are you happy with people being beaten up on the street for moving cones, people throwing grenades and shooting at police, the alleged kidnap, torture and murder of people by the PDRC during their occupation? Are you a "fascist thug" too? Or maybe it's best to judge groups on what a few extremists do and instead focus on the broader arguments and grievances. I do agree that the PDRC are right to be aggreived about the terrorism and those that perpetrated those acts are the lowest of the low and I hope they're dealt with as swiftly and severely as possible if found guilty in a fair trial. It's a shame that the PDRC can't empathize with the reds, because force was used against them in 2010 and they came off far worse. Of course you can argue that the red shirt militants resisted the military and used armed force against them.

But the PDRC were not much different in that respect. They were prepared to resist any attempts to clear them using war weapons. What if the grenade they tossed at police killed 5 instead of 1? It's just a matter of chance that it didn't. We could probably argue about this forever, despite the fact we've already discussed these topics exhaustively. Just saying it's a shame that the PDRC and the red shirts can't draw on these experiences and use them to empathize and try to understand each other a little better. Instead they'd rather call each other "thugs", "terrorists", "fascists", "buffalo" etc and carry on hating each other (the conversation we're having here differs little to the one Thais are having amongst themselves as far as I can tell).

[Luger2]

The BBC's Jonathan head is at it again

According tp the World Service. Bangkok sytreet are fully of soldiers confronting anti-coup demostrators!

I sthat true? I was on Sukhumvit, Silom, Satorn yesterday and saw nothing amiss?

Anybody confirm the veracity of the reporting?

Is it all possible to attribute your unattributed, undated, and wholly worthless because of it, photos?

[jayboy]

The Shinawatra dictatorship won the election but they did not win it with the majority of the Thai people voting for them. To say the majority of the Thai people want a Shinawatra dictatorship is not true.

If the Democrats had won the last election with PTP's margin they (and the unelected elites that backed them) would have claimed an overwhelming and unquestionable mandate.The problem for the losers is not the matter of margin but the fact that the Thai people when asked keep on giving the wrong result.Hence as we have seen they resort to non electoral methods of obtaining power.

In light of current events you certainly have an interesting idea on what constitutes a dicatatorship.As I recall the PTP government was checked and corrected at every turn, hardly an experience asociated with dictatorships.

[sumtingwong]

The Shinawatra dictatorship won the election but they did not win it with the majority of the Thai people voting for them. To say the majority of the Thai people want a Shinawatra dictatorship is not true.

if theres 100 and out of that 100% only 50% decide to cast a vote and the results come out 30% for one 20% for the other the one with 30% will still win, its called the voting majority, thats how elections work

that is why its important to cast a vote, or you dont have a say in who wins and cannot complain.

The old fallacy of its not a majority of a people is irrelevent it IS the majority of the voting population and that is all that counts.. seeing as there will always be some that wont vote for anyone or care or cannot be bothered. Thats pretty much how it works or didnt you study politics and election systems at school.?

The facts is, not only did the eligible voting Thais not vote for Shinawatra dictatorship in the majority, but also the voting Thais did not vote for the Shinawatra dictatorship in the majority.

[ In reality, of the 74% of Thais that turned out to vote on July 3, 2011, only 48% actually cast votes for Peua Thai (PTP). Of all eligible voters, that is a tenuous 35% mandate, hardly what can be called “decisively backed.” ]

[sumtingwong]

The Shinawatra dictatorship won the election but they did not win it with the majority of the Thai people voting for them. To say the majority of the Thai people want a Shinawatra dictatorship is not true.

If the Democrats had won the last election with PTP's margin they (and the unelected elites that backed them) would have claimed an overwhelming and unquestionable mandate.The problem for the losers is not the matter of margin but the fact that the Thai people when asked keep on giving the wrong result.Hence as we have seen they resort to non electoral methods of obtaining power.

In light of current events you certainly have an interesting idea on what constitutes a dicatatorship.As I recall the PTP government was checked and corrected at every turn, hardly an experience asociated with dictatorships.

Regardless, the majority of the Thais did not vote for the Shinawatra dictatorship. Even in the USA you can be elected president without the majority vote, therefore he can not say that the majority of the voting population voted for me. And in Thailand, neither can the Shinawatra dictatorship.

[rabas]

[ "Democracy Monument now -- no dramas. This may be shocking to western powers, but the reason the attacks have finally stopped is the coup d'etat. (Touch wood.)" ]

Yes and the attacks stopped because the protests stopped.

And one of the main reasons for the protests and hence the attacks was the divisiveness the 2006 Coup created.

When/if there is ever lifting of censorship, allowance of political gatherings, the chances are the violence will be worse, especially as it appears that this was simply a power grab and will result in them rigging sorry 'reforming' the election so only the Democrat or a military party can win regardless of votes.

It is what happens when military dictatorship tries and suppress the wishes of millions of its citizens for nefarious and transparent reasons.

Wrong. The violence stopped 2 days before the declaration of martial law. Why? That was when the military started to move in on the police and oversee what they were "doing". There were shootings and bombings on 6 consecutive days before that at Chaengwatthana, 3 hitting targets, and increasingly deadly attacks including the killing of several people at Democracy Monument that left dozens wounded. The curtain fell well before the protests ended.

The amazing thing is the protests didn't stop after 28 dead and hundreds wounded.

Why do you root for a completely corrupt state where the entire police force is used as a goon squad against the populace?

[Luger2]

There are some here that say a head of state can only be removed by an election, no matter what crime he commits.

So obviously, they would have been against a war/coup to remove Hitler as well.

There are also some people here who think it's legitimate to remove a prime minister for hosting a cooking show or re-assigning a minister appointed by her predecessor. I think there should be legal means to remove heads of state for serious crimes, but not trivial offenses.

It's the law that perjury and nepotism are offenses that can lead to a PM's dismissal.

If the various Thaksin governments that have ruled for the vast majority of the past 15 years felt these laws were unjust, they could have easily had them changed with their majority in Parliament.

p.s. Even though he perjured himself in court, the actual permanent removal of the aforementioned PM was effected when the Party Financier in Dubai decided unilaterally to not have proxy Samak return as PM, but instead selected proxy Somchai to be PM.

[englishoak]

The Shinawatra dictatorship won the election but they did not win it with the majority of the Thai people voting for them. To say the majority of the Thai people want a Shinawatra dictatorship is not true.

if theres 100 and out of that 100% only 50% decide to cast a vote and the results come out 30% for one 20% for the other the one with 30% will still win, its called the voting majority, thats how elections work

that is why its important to cast a vote, or you dont have a say in who wins and cannot complain.

The old fallacy of its not a majority of a people is irrelevent it IS the majority of the voting population and that is all that counts.. seeing as there will always be some that wont vote for anyone or care or cannot be bothered. Thats pretty much how it works or didnt you study politics and election systems at school.?

The facts is, not only did the eligible voting Thais not vote for Shinawatra dictatorship in the majority, but also the voting Thais did not vote for the Shinawatra dictatorship in the majority.

[ In reality, of the 74% of Thais that turned out to vote on July 3, 2011, only 48% actually cast votes for Peua Thai (PTP). Of all eligible voters, that is a tenuous 35% mandate, hardly what can be called “decisively backed.” ]

Look it dosnt matter it is actually considered a landslide at 48%, seriously you need to become a little more familiar with how the voting process works and what they mean by a landslide. lets take your figures there ok and ill walk you through it

48% out of 74% total voters actually represents a big majority swing when you look at all the partys of choice running ...its absolutely huge in fact on electoral scales, it equates to 2/3 support of the voting poulation... thats 2 thirds wanted them or if you prefer 66% of all voters or in another word its a decisive majority....

you still dont get it do you ?

PS i dont have a horse in the race btw im just trying to get you to understand what a voting majority is and how it equates.

PPs and dont ask about first past the post system as the UK has, that'll really fry your brain to attempt to follow.

Edited June 2, 2014 by englishoak

[Emptyset]

The Shinawatra dictatorship won the election but they did not win it with the majority of the Thai people voting for them. To say the majority of the Thai people want a Shinawatra dictatorship is not true.

If the Democrats had won the last election with PTP's margin they (and the unelected elites that backed them) would have claimed an overwhelming and unquestionable mandate.The problem for the losers is not the matter of margin but the fact that the Thai people when asked keep on giving the wrong result.Hence as we have seen they resort to non electoral methods of obtaining power.

In light of current events you certainly have an interesting idea on what constitutes a dicatatorship.As I recall the PTP government was checked and corrected at every turn, hardly an experience asociated with dictatorships.

Regardless, the majority of the Thais did not vote for the Shinawatra dictatorship. Even in the USA you can be elected president without the majority vote, therefore he can not say that the majority of the voting population voted for me. And in Thailand, neither can the Shinawatra dictatorship.

"Even in the USA you can be elected president without the majority vote" Yes, you can... It's just the US is more or less a two party system (also presidential system, of course, so it's different) so one of the candidates often gets over 50%, but not always. What englishoak says is right. And by European standards, Yingluck's win was massive. Blair's result in 1997 in the UK is generally described as a historic landslide victory, a total rout, and he only got 43% of the vote.