International alarm mounts over Thai coup

[ginjag]

Thing are really getting out of context now.

There may have been 'a few more' dead because of the arson (e.g. body found in torched WTC?), but the main reason for the army to shoot was the militants amongst the peaceful protesters. Cowardly hiding behind older women and even children. cowardly emerging in the night to wreck havoc on all non-red-shirts.

BTW the first UDD supporters shot was only following after the first grenade attacks on non-red-shirts following the end of February 2010 court decision to confiscate 46 billion of Thaksin's ill gotten gains.

Now surely some international characters here seem to be alarmed in a growing manner.

"Thing are really getting out of context now"

Mainly due to you and your "mates" dragging them there.

You may not have reached cartalucci heights yet "Of the 92 that died, many were red shirts who perished from smoke inhalation while looting buildings fellow protesters lit ablaze." but you're almost there with your attempt at tugging at the heart strings with this "Cowardly hiding behind older women and even children".

I don't recall there being any children among the protesters on April 10th for the cowardly militants to hide behind and the only reason there was any fighting at night was because of a botched decision by the army commander on the scene to ignore advice he was given not to prolong the operation into the night time.

BTW the first casualty on 10th April 2010 was as I said a UDD supporter who was shot dead in the afternoon before the major confrontation later that day. You can look it up in the live feed posted by Thai Visa Forum that day, I haven't got the time or the inclination to.

Oh, your continuing denial that other countries are less than impressed with the coup is getting a bit tiresome now. Let's agree to disagree, you think other countries have lost interest, they don't. Let's leave it at that.

Here's some more cheerleaders for you, you must have worn the previous one out by now

Start again and make this epic more simple, shorten it all down as most is lost in BUMF.

What did the siege of BKK achieve ?? and why was it led by red army.

[citizen33]

There is a pretty middle-of-the-road assessment of the coup by Dr Vikram Nehru of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in the Diplomat Magazine and copied on Youtube. I won't link because it does mention HRH, though in generally positive terms. It is easy enough to find on the Diplomat website.

[rubl]

There is a pretty middle-of-the-road assessment of the coup by Dr Vikram Nehru of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in the Diplomat Magazine and copied on Youtube. I won't link because it does mention HRH, though in generally positive terms. It is easy enough to find on the Diplomat website.

"Understanding Thailand's Coup"

The Carnegie website shows as summary

"Thailand’s coup is rooted in the clash between the rising voice of the rural poor and the established power of the Bangkok elite. The resolution of this clash will determine the character of Thai democracy."

I think that summary is a bit too simplistic. Still the NCPO seems to have (for the moment) stabilized the country. To be seen how much participation the Military will get in the reconciliation programs and for the reforms. Even with a somewhat heavy hand the military seem to offer the best chance to get 'real' reforms which the politicians will get a chance to water down again in 1-1/2 years time.

[heybruce]

Yes, a bad idea. Many redshirts were outraged because of the yellowshirts that would have received amnesty. Protesters shutting down an elected government is undemocratic and illegal, setting the police on them is the correct response, a Prime Minister asking them to "please go home" is a display of restraint.

An election in July would have shown a significant drop in support for the PTP, it might have put them out of office, and it would have allowed a cooling off and genuine reconciliation. As I've already explained in as much detail as I can (not much) I have no faith in the reforms. Seven months of political bickering was the pretext for the coup. If you took the time to inform yourself using uncensored news sources you'd get a much better grasp of what's going on.

It's like listening to an old scratched 78 record, Government governing illegally is better. Your explanations are not needed, as near everyone has heard the rants 1000 times. elections this elections that---PTP were slung out and rightly so even if it could be classed as not the in thing to do--it had to be--accept it move on.

Quote--" you said--" yellow shirts would have received amnesty" this was making the red shirts angry ?????

Wait now for that response from the ones you class as wrongly informed.

"Quote--" you said--" yellow shirts would have received amnesty" this was making the red shirts angry ?????"

From http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/680807-thai-red-shirts-rally-ahead-of-key-amnesty-debate/?hl=%2Bamnesty

"The bill has however also upset many of Thaksin's supporters, including Red Shirts, who want justice for the killing of more than 90 civilians during a military crackdown on their rallies against the previous Democrat-led government in Bangkok in 2010.

"We disagree with the blanket amnesty bill, which is also an amnesty for murderers," said prominent Red Shirt activist Sombat Boonngamanong, at a separate rally earlier Sunday."

"We want the government to apologise to the people, to the Red Shirts who voted for you" for proposing the blanket amnesty, he added."

Weren't you aware of this? Do you consider yourself well informed?

Once again, if elections had been allowed without disruption the results would have shown a significant fall in support for the PTP and the Shinawatra family. It was a missed opportunity. Now when elections are eventually held the memories of the PTP's incompetence will be overshadowed by the memory of how the government ended. The influence of the Shinawatra family has been enhanced by the coup.

The UDD leaders and other UDD members being opted-in into the Pheu Thai party and even the party list of candidates to become Pheu Thai party list MPs and even one getting appointed as Dept. Minister of Commerce. Most voted for the blanket amnesty bill (like Korkaew), only Dr. weng, Nattawut and Seh Daeng's daughter abstained, none voted against.

Now that's something all managed to forget when the UDD leadership started their campaign on 'protecting their democracy' and Isan darling Yingluck.

Sombat B. seems the only one who is really for democracy and grassroot red-shirts, but than he's not UDD.

Your point being?

I wrote "Many redshirts were outraged because of the yellowshirts that would have received amnesty." and provided a quote from a redshirt leader supporting that claim. It's no surprise the redshirts that were included in the government supported the amnesty bill.

How about the rest of my post? Any comments?

[Publicus]

No matter how much people go on about "corruption" etc, IMO Thailand was a better and more enjoyable place before thaksin took over. Since then, crime has increased, money money money has become all they care about, and the locals have become fatter ( due to eating bad food ) and less sanuk. In short the "smile" has vanished from LOS.

Does anyone that lived in Thailand/ visited a lot during Leekpai's second term disagree?

Chuan Leekpai is still held in high regard but his government was a pathetic joke and riddled with corruption. Those were not great years for Thailand as it struggled with the Asian Economic Crisis

I was referring to the period BEFORE the economic crisis. Thailand has never got back to what it was before as regards the Sanuk factor. Corrupt or not, Thailand in the early to mid 90s was a far happier place as I experienced it, and everyone I saw really did smile back then.

The time you cite, the early and mid-1990s, was a period of fahlang mysticism and Thai fantasy as the country was living in a financial bubble and a property distortion that, combined with a gross currency mismanagement, produced an unprecedented catastrophe in terms that were financial economic, social, political.

Chuan and the DP were advanced as the saviors of the country only to fall in their failure. The successor new savior of the country, Thaksin, said Thais Love Thais,kicked in the economy but found out only the right kind of Thais love the equally right kind of Thais, meaning Bangkol Thais..

The next in line saviors who executed the 2006 coup turned out however to have conducted the most divisive event in Thai-Siam history. Equally as bad were the judicial coups that followed the new politics of governance by street mobs headlined by the PAD takeover of Swampy.

The judicial coups had the direct consequence of the riots, killings, torching of central Bangkok in 2010.

The election of July 2011 produced more street mob politics which now has led to a return of uniformed saviors and another coup, which also has direct consequences yet to come both domestically and internationally.

Many fahlang as well as too many Thais continue to live in their fantasy world that Thailand was once a peaceful and pleasant place when it in fact has always been a disaster in process and has graduated only to being a catastrophe in process.

The early 90s were marked by a coup that was brought down only after Thais in the streets were shot by Army special ops troops and the generals in charge got reprimanded by the King. That debacle was followed by the election of the dream team government of General Chavalit which proceeded to preside over the collapse of the Thai economy.

Dream Time vs Reality.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Publicus

[metisdead]

Some nonsense posts have disappeared.

[ginjag]

No matter how much people go on about "corruption" etc, IMO Thailand was a better and more enjoyable place before thaksin took over. Since then, crime has increased, money money money has become all they care about, and the locals have become fatter ( due to eating bad food ) and less sanuk. In short the "smile" has vanished from LOS.

Does anyone that lived in Thailand/ visited a lot during Leekpai's second term disagree?

Chuan Leekpai is still held in high regard but his government was a pathetic joke and riddled with corruption. Those were not great years for Thailand as it struggled with the Asian Economic Crisis

I was referring to the period BEFORE the economic crisis. Thailand has never got back to what it was before as regards the Sanuk factor. Corrupt or not, Thailand in the early to mid 90s was a far happier place as I experienced it, and everyone I saw really did smile back then.

The time you cite, the early and mid-1990s, was a period of fahlang mysticism and Thai fantasy as the country was living in a financial bubble and a property distortion that, combined with a gross currency mismanagement, produced an unprecedented catastrophe in terms that were financial economic, social, political.

Chuan and the DP were advanced as the saviors of the country only to fall in their failure. The successor new savior of the country, Thaksin, said Thais Love Thais,kicked in the economy but found out only the right kind of Thais love the equally right kind of Thais, meaning Bangkol Thais..

The next in line saviors who executed the 2006 coup turned out however to have conducted the most divisive event in Thai-Siam history. Equally as bad were the judicial coups that followed the new politics of governance by street mobs headlined by the PAD takeover of Swampy.

The judicial coups had the direct consequence of the riots, killings, torching of central Bangkok in 2010.

The election of July 2011 produced more street mob politics which now has led to a return of uniformed saviors and another coup, which also has direct consequences yet to come both domestically and internationally.

Many fahlang as well as too many Thais continue to live in their fantasy world that Thailand was once a peaceful and pleasant place when it in fact has always been a disaster in process and has graduated only to being a catastrophe in process.

The early 90s were marked by a coup that was brought down only after Thais in the streets were shot by Army special ops troops and the generals in charge got reprimanded by the King. That debacle was followed by the election of the dream team government of General Chavalit which proceeded to preside over the collapse of the Thai economy.

Dream Time vs Reality.

This post is what we call a complete one sided reality.

Funny how it is always everybody else is to blame. no reds to blame completely innocent and non violent protesters, with that extraordinary Thaksin as superman for the people and all army are ruthless aggressors ----see your comments --(2010)

Both sides of the coin are well documented. why do you keep trying to promote a one sided view---your sounding like R.Head, BBC.

Let it rest will you.

Let us see what happens during the clean-up and court findings, then start any comments on this.

PTP are not in the frame now nor is any of the past governments/coups. start fresh, all the posts about years ago are getting boring and meaningless.

BUT we do not have to forget the past events we use them for better future knowledge. Move on man.

[bigbamboo]

OK. Apart from tackling corruption, sorting out the police, paying the rice farmers, cancelling the high speed white elephant, making the streets safe again, improving consumer confidence and restoring law and order.......... what have the army ever done for us?

[Publicus]

I was referring to the period BEFORE the economic crisis. Thailand has never got back to what it was before as regards the Sanuk factor. Corrupt or not, Thailand in the early to mid 90s was a far happier place as I experienced it, and everyone I saw really did smile back then.

The time you cite, the early and mid-1990s, was a period of fahlang mysticism and Thai fantasy as the country was living in a financial bubble and a property distortion that, combined with a gross currency mismanagement, produced an unprecedented catastrophe in terms that were financial economic, social, political.

Chuan and the DP were advanced as the saviors of the country only to fall in their failure. The successor new savior of the country, Thaksin, said Thais Love Thais,kicked in the economy but found out only the right kind of Thais love the equally right kind of Thais, meaning Bangkol Thais..

The next in line saviors who executed the 2006 coup turned out however to have conducted the most divisive event in Thai-Siam history. Equally as bad were the judicial coups that followed the new politics of governance by street mobs headlined by the PAD takeover of Swampy.

The judicial coups had the direct consequence of the riots, killings, torching of central Bangkok in 2010.

The election of July 2011 produced more street mob politics which now has led to a return of uniformed saviors and another coup, which also has direct consequences yet to come both domestically and internationally.

Many fahlang as well as too many Thais continue to live in their fantasy world that Thailand was once a peaceful and pleasant place when it in fact has always been a disaster in process and has graduated only to being a catastrophe in process.

The early 90s were marked by a coup that was brought down only after Thais in the streets were shot by Army special ops troops and the generals in charge got reprimanded by the King. That debacle was followed by the election of the dream team government of General Chavalit which proceeded to preside over the collapse of the Thai economy.

Dream Time vs Reality.

This post is what we call a complete one sided reality.

Funny how it is always everybody else is to blame. no reds to blame completely innocent and non violent protesters, with that extraordinary Thaksin as superman for the people and all army are ruthless aggressors ----see your comments --(2010)

Both sides of the coin are well documented. why do you keep trying to promote a one sided view---your sounding like R.Head, BBC.

Let it rest will you.

Let us see what happens during the clean-up and court findings, then start any comments on this.

PTP are not in the frame now nor is any of the past governments/coups. start fresh, all the posts about years ago are getting boring and meaningless.

BUT we do not have to forget the past events we use them for better future knowledge. Move on man.

You and a large number of your in-step comrades in arms choose to ignore time, events, people, acting and occurring in a continuum.

The present coup and current chaos did not suddenly drop in out of the sky. They are a part of a continuum of events, people, places, policies, cultural values, mores, socio-economic realities and much more that flow as one, meandering unpredictably here and lurching unforeseeably there,

I disagree with a coup because a coup ruling body in control of the government and the country is not a fresh start. It is old hat, to put it politely and mildly. The fact is, if anything, the current circumstance has taken both coups and Thailand across a threshold and into a new dimension which no one can predict or foresee. It is very much a matter of facing a highly risky and problematic terra incognita.

The let's wait and see attitude chimed by the TVF in-harmony coup coupers is predicated in the erroneous thinking and a suspended belief that the present circumstance is a new and brilliant development and a nimble solution to the country's ills. The fact is every such event has, since 1991 produced and resulted in new and worse problems that have exacerbated already serious divisions and severe antagonisms.

Such faith and optimism in the same same approach exists in a tragically suspended reality.

[ginjag]

I was referring to the period BEFORE the economic crisis. Thailand has never got back to what it was before as regards the Sanuk factor. Corrupt or not, Thailand in the early to mid 90s was a far happier place as I experienced it, and everyone I saw really did smile back then.

The time you cite, the early and mid-1990s, was a period of fahlang mysticism and Thai fantasy as the country was living in a financial bubble and a property distortion that, combined with a gross currency mismanagement, produced an unprecedented catastrophe in terms that were financial economic, social, political.

Chuan and the DP were advanced as the saviors of the country only to fall in their failure. The successor new savior of the country, Thaksin, said Thais Love Thais,kicked in the economy but found out only the right kind of Thais love the equally right kind of Thais, meaning Bangkol Thais..

The next in line saviors who executed the 2006 coup turned out however to have conducted the most divisive event in Thai-Siam history. Equally as bad were the judicial coups that followed the new politics of governance by street mobs headlined by the PAD takeover of Swampy.

The judicial coups had the direct consequence of the riots, killings, torching of central Bangkok in 2010.

The election of July 2011 produced more street mob politics which now has led to a return of uniformed saviors and another coup, which also has direct consequences yet to come both domestically and internationally.

Many fahlang as well as too many Thais continue to live in their fantasy world that Thailand was once a peaceful and pleasant place when it in fact has always been a disaster in process and has graduated only to being a catastrophe in process.

The early 90s were marked by a coup that was brought down only after Thais in the streets were shot by Army special ops troops and the generals in charge got reprimanded by the King. That debacle was followed by the election of the dream team government of General Chavalit which proceeded to preside over the collapse of the Thai economy.

Dream Time vs Reality.

This post is what we call a complete one sided reality.

Funny how it is always everybody else is to blame. no reds to blame completely innocent and non violent protesters, with that extraordinary Thaksin as superman for the people and all army are ruthless aggressors ----see your comments --(2010)

Both sides of the coin are well documented. why do you keep trying to promote a one sided view---your sounding like R.Head, BBC.

Let it rest will you.

Let us see what happens during the clean-up and court findings, then start any comments on this.

PTP are not in the frame now nor is any of the past governments/coups. start fresh, all the posts about years ago are getting boring and meaningless.

BUT we do not have to forget the past events we use them for better future knowledge. Move on man.

You and a large number of your in-step comrades in arms choose to ignore time, events, people, acting and occurring in a continuum.

The present coup and current chaos did not suddenly drop in out of the sky. They are a part of a continuum of events, people, places, policies, cultural values, mores, socio-economic realities and much more that flow as one, meandering unpredictably here and lurching unforeseeably there,

I disagree with a coup because a coup ruling body in control of the government and the country is not a fresh start. It is old hat, to put it politely and mildly. The fact is, if anything, the current circumstance has taken both coups and Thailand across a threshold and into a new dimension which no one can predict or foresee. It is very much a matter of facing a highly risky and problematic terra incognita.

The let's wait and see attitude chimed by the TVF in-harmony coup coupers is predicated in the erroneous thinking and a suspended belief that the present circumstance is a new and brilliant development and a nimble solution to the country's ills. The fact is every such event has, since 1991 produced and resulted in new and worse problems that have exacerbated already serious divisions and severe antagonisms.

Such faith and optimism in the same same approach exists in a tragically suspended reality.

Why don't you post and say---you don't agree with the coup. it's easier than all this bumf.

When you post that then you can post everyday on what the army is achieving, like all that has been done already. in a week -they have advanced more than PTP in 3 years, any comment on the present measures WITHOUT slagging the army off. looking decent to me up to now.

I believe I have an open mind and go along with calm collected governing, rather than the greed of PTP.

If things get out of line and I do not agree with measures made I will be a critic of the running of the country.

But to me you have this objection of anything that is bringing temporary stability.... let it drop you cannot change things, applaud ANY betterment.

[jayboy]

Thing are really getting out of context now.

There may have been 'a few more' dead because of the arson (e.g. body found in torched WTC?), but the main reason for the army to shoot was the militants amongst the peaceful protesters. Cowardly hiding behind older women and even children. cowardly emerging in the night to wreck havoc on all non-red-shirts.

BTW the first UDD supporters shot was only following after the first grenade attacks on non-red-shirts following the end of February 2010 court decision to confiscate 46 billion of Thaksin's ill gotten gains.

Now surely some international characters here seem to be alarmed in a growing manner.

"Cowardly hiding behind older women and even children." - would you make the same criticism of the PDRC, then? Because as I see they were also largely peaceful but also had a heavily armed group of militants who emerged during violent clashes with police & at Lak Si against the red shirts. If the MiB were justification for the army in 2010 to crackdown, why weren't the PDRC's armed militia justification for a forceful crackdown earlier this year? Of course scores would've died... just like in 2010. Difference in 2010 was Abhisit wasn't willing to dissolve house whereas Yingluck had already done that.

Why would I or even should I?

My dear empty, you waive a story full of holes, you suggest links which are not there.

1. The UDD sponsored violence started way before a crackdown and only really surprised all when the army was seen retreating under fire from 'unarmed peaceful protesters' on the 10th of April, 2010. That was moments after a colonel and staff got a few grenades lobbed on them.

2. The anti-(Yingluck-)government protesters were harassed from day one, shot at, got grenades lobbed on them. This may not completely justify those violent guards, but can be justified up to a point because of being targeted without the police being able (or willing) to offer protection.

3. The LakSI violence started with red-shirts looking for problems, starting to shoot and a few militants arriving to help protect the anti-government protesters.

4. The 2010 justification for the Army crackdown was the clear reluctance of the police to do something about the protesters. With the recent protests the police was more than willing to support the government, and seemingly also prepared to turn a blind eye on violence to anti-government protesters while really at it on violence by the protesters.

5. The dissolution of the House by Yingluck and the strong push by Pheu Thai for new elections was only meant to try to get another 'mandate' to break laws, push blanket amnesty bills and the like.

Obfuscation seems your game, but no set, no match.

Still stuck in the past with tired cliches and the usual bile.But the world has moved on -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-buffett/my-heart-breaks-for-thail_b_5440670.html

[Amavel]

Have Toyota and Honda gone back into production?

[rubl]

Thing are really getting out of context now.

There may have been 'a few more' dead because of the arson (e.g. body found in torched WTC?), but the main reason for the army to shoot was the militants amongst the peaceful protesters. Cowardly hiding behind older women and even children. cowardly emerging in the night to wreck havoc on all non-red-shirts.

BTW the first UDD supporters shot was only following after the first grenade attacks on non-red-shirts following the end of February 2010 court decision to confiscate 46 billion of Thaksin's ill gotten gains.

Now surely some international characters here seem to be alarmed in a growing manner.

"Cowardly hiding behind older women and even children." - would you make the same criticism of the PDRC, then? Because as I see they were also largely peaceful but also had a heavily armed group of militants who emerged during violent clashes with police & at Lak Si against the red shirts. If the MiB were justification for the army in 2010 to crackdown, why weren't the PDRC's armed militia justification for a forceful crackdown earlier this year? Of course scores would've died... just like in 2010. Difference in 2010 was Abhisit wasn't willing to dissolve house whereas Yingluck had already done that.

Why would I or even should I?

My dear empty, you waive a story full of holes, you suggest links which are not there.

1. The UDD sponsored violence started way before a crackdown and only really surprised all when the army was seen retreating under fire from 'unarmed peaceful protesters' on the 10th of April, 2010. That was moments after a colonel and staff got a few grenades lobbed on them.

2. The anti-(Yingluck-)government protesters were harassed from day one, shot at, got grenades lobbed on them. This may not completely justify those violent guards, but can be justified up to a point because of being targeted without the police being able (or willing) to offer protection.

3. The LakSI violence started with red-shirts looking for problems, starting to shoot and a few militants arriving to help protect the anti-government protesters.

4. The 2010 justification for the Army crackdown was the clear reluctance of the police to do something about the protesters. With the recent protests the police was more than willing to support the government, and seemingly also prepared to turn a blind eye on violence to anti-government protesters while really at it on violence by the protesters.

5. The dissolution of the House by Yingluck and the strong push by Pheu Thai for new elections was only meant to try to get another 'mandate' to break laws, push blanket amnesty bills and the like.

Obfuscation seems your game, but no set, no match.

Still stuck in the past with tired cliches and the usual bile.But the world has moved on -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-buffett/my-heart-breaks-for-thail_b_5440670.html

Still unable to comment on posts rather the person who writes the posts I see.

Interesting how it seems possible to write pro-UDD dictatorship while condemning others as fascists.

BTW I like this part from the article you provide a link to. It really shows the objectiveness, importance and no doubt the positive influence on others this will create.

"Even during Watergate, the worst constitutional crisis in the United States since the Civil War, there were no tanks on the streets. Nobody was arrested or detained. Nobody was tortured or killed. Life moved on."

[jaidam]

In the short post-coup period we have witnessed a dramatic shift in how the country is run. Moving from primarily an astrology centered decision making process under the Shin clan, to the current Junta who prefer the old fashioned reason and logic approach. Frothers opposing the regime, both here and abroad will come to appreciate the rationale behind the coup given due time, and some gentle persuasion if needed.

[marinediscoking]

"BANGKOK: Thailand's junta said Friday that it had captured a fugitive anti-coup leader facing possible imprisonment, as the ruling generals seek to stamp out any criticism of their seizure of power."

This is the first sentence from the leading story on google news currently about thailnad. This is from a Pakistani paper "the news" and they are not known for as a bastion of democracy.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-149928-Thailands-junta-detains-anti-coup-leader

[wolf5370]

< Quote: HeyBruce, on 28 May 2014 - 11:51, said:>

Add to that economic change. Before 2001 90% of government investment was in Bangkok, the south was doing well from tourism, and the north and northeast had third world economies, making them a convenient source of cheap, complacent labor for Bangkok and the south.

"It was about changing the beneficiary of the corruption."

That, and other issues which some think will are bringing changes to the socio-political fabric of the country, changes which they want to stop.

Since 2001 investment in Bangkok has slowly decreased, it was down to 72% of government investment in 2012 (my source is the World Bank, but I'm leery of posting a link), which resulted in a significant increase in government investment outside of Bangkok. Better roads, schools, clinics, etc., resulted in the peasants getting uppity; workers demanding living wages, hookers getting more expensive, stuff like that. A lot of people don't like this kind of change.

< end quote>

I guess there may be some skewing here due to the BKK mega projects that were underway during the 2000-2012 era - BTS, Express Ways, Swampy - take these costs out, and how does the residue compare to the BKK vs outside BKK change over that time?

I'm puzzled, the numbers are top level comparisons of infrastructure investment in Bangkok to infrastructure investment outside of Bangkok. Why would I want to factor out significant infrastructure investments before making the comparison?

To level the playing field. During times of mega-projects such as those I mentioned there is obviously going to be more budget assigned to those areas. To compare Bangkok whilst these [projects are going on, with now, as to imply that more funding is now being spent on the north is fallacious. These mega projects are special cases and received special funding, this does not mean that funding was necessarily diverted away from the north. They are also one off type investments and do not show a (dramatic) trend to invest more in one area than another - nor after they are completed and paid for, do they show the opposite - i.e. greater investment outside/less investment inside the capital wrt to day to day infrastructure like hospitals, roads, school, clinic, etc - as you mentioned. Hence, they skew the figures.

This is the same trick investment bankers play all the time - show you a small part of a graph showing marked increase (or in this case decrease) and it's an easy sell - but step back and look at more of the graph and it just shows itself to be one side of a short-lived blip.

Bangkok, with 17% of the countries population, receives 72% of the the government's general expenditures http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/05/10/thailand-public-finance-management-review-report. This has not only funded mega-projects, which only occur in Bangkok and vicinity, it also leads to wide disparities in the quality of services delivered http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2012/05/09/000333037_20120509003158/Rendered/PDF/685510ESW00PUB0y0Note0master0120501.pdf:

"Service delivery disparities mirror expenditure disparities. In the health sector there are three times more doctors per capita in Bangkok than in other regions . While in the education sector the teacher per student ratio is much lower in the North and the Northeast than Bangkok and the central region. These disparities are correlated to human development outcomes."

Bangkok really is treated as an elite area in terms of government spending. The imbalance in spending was even worse before Thaksin, but my source for that is the Economist, which might result in this reply being removed.

If you want to disect the numbers further you'll have to do it yourself. Good luck getting access to historical records of government spending in Thailand.

I didn't say you were wrong Bruce, just that it makes more sense to exclude special projects (mega-projects) as they are one offs and pretty much always done in a capital city in other countries too.

[heybruce]

In the short post-coup period we have witnessed a dramatic shift in how the country is run. Moving from primarily an astrology centered decision making process under the Shin clan, to the current Junta who prefer the old fashioned reason and logic approach. Frothers opposing the regime, both here and abroad will come to appreciate the rationale behind the coup given due time, and some gentle persuasion if needed.

Right, military governments have a great track record when it comes to making things better. When have they ever failed?

Regarding the reason and logic of the coup, nothing beyond the official explanation can be discussed here. Those who are genuinely interested in possible alternative motives of the generals need to check uncensored news sources.

[ginjag]

In the short post-coup period we have witnessed a dramatic shift in how the country is run. Moving from primarily an astrology centered decision making process under the Shin clan, to the current Junta who prefer the old fashioned reason and logic approach. Frothers opposing the regime, both here and abroad will come to appreciate the rationale behind the coup given due time, and some gentle persuasion if needed.

Right, military governments have a great track record when it comes to making things better. When have they ever failed?

Regarding the reason and logic of the coup, nothing beyond the official explanation can be discussed here. Those who are genuinely interested in possible alternative motives of the generals need to check uncensored news sources.

Never mind knocking the army, how about knocking your ridiculous non democratic, diabolical PTP led by the Shins.

3 years in office and a catastrophic collapse. They got elected and proved they could not run a effective government.

YOU have countered everybody's posts, rarely have you actually started conversations. In denial throughout, dismal poster.

Try telling us about the good there in PTP intentions---remind us all what these Mega PTP achievements in the 3 years--- I've ranted on all along about.

Again save the Suthep-Dems-elections-as being the fault. Start afresh like most eh !!! and see what we can achieve out of the rubble.

[FritsSikkink]

Thing are really getting out of context now.

There may have been 'a few more' dead because of the arson (e.g. body found in torched WTC?), but the main reason for the army to shoot was the militants amongst the peaceful protesters. Cowardly hiding behind older women and even children. cowardly emerging in the night to wreck havoc on all non-red-shirts.

BTW the first UDD supporters shot was only following after the first grenade attacks on non-red-shirts following the end of February 2010 court decision to confiscate 46 billion of Thaksin's ill gotten gains.

Now surely some international characters here seem to be alarmed in a growing manner.

"Cowardly hiding behind older women and even children." - would you make the same criticism of the PDRC, then? Because as I see they were also largely peaceful but also had a heavily armed group of militants who emerged during violent clashes with police & at Lak Si against the red shirts. If the MiB were justification for the army in 2010 to crackdown, why weren't the PDRC's armed militia justification for a forceful crackdown earlier this year? Of course scores would've died... just like in 2010. Difference in 2010 was Abhisit wasn't willing to dissolve house whereas Yingluck had already done that.

Why would I or even should I?

My dear empty, you waive a story full of holes, you suggest links which are not there.

1. The UDD sponsored violence started way before a crackdown and only really surprised all when the army was seen retreating under fire from 'unarmed peaceful protesters' on the 10th of April, 2010. That was moments after a colonel and staff got a few grenades lobbed on them.

2. The anti-(Yingluck-)government protesters were harassed from day one, shot at, got grenades lobbed on them. This may not completely justify those violent guards, but can be justified up to a point because of being targeted without the police being able (or willing) to offer protection.

3. The LakSI violence started with red-shirts looking for problems, starting to shoot and a few militants arriving to help protect the anti-government protesters.

4. The 2010 justification for the Army crackdown was the clear reluctance of the police to do something about the protesters. With the recent protests the police was more than willing to support the government, and seemingly also prepared to turn a blind eye on violence to anti-government protesters while really at it on violence by the protesters.

5. The dissolution of the House by Yingluck and the strong push by Pheu Thai for new elections was only meant to try to get another 'mandate' to break laws, push blanket amnesty bills and the like.

Obfuscation seems your game, but no set, no match.

Still stuck in the past with tired cliches and the usual bile.But the world has moved on -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-buffett/my-heart-breaks-for-thail_b_5440670.html

Mary Buffett is the world ???

[rubl]

In the short post-coup period we have witnessed a dramatic shift in how the country is run. Moving from primarily an astrology centered decision making process under the Shin clan, to the current Junta who prefer the old fashioned reason and logic approach. Frothers opposing the regime, both here and abroad will come to appreciate the rationale behind the coup given due time, and some gentle persuasion if needed.

Right, military governments have a great track record when it comes to making things better. When have they ever failed?

Regarding the reason and logic of the coup, nothing beyond the official explanation can be discussed here. Those who are genuinely interested in possible alternative motives of the generals need to check uncensored news sources.

Thai governments formed from ONE majority political party or as coalition with the majority partner not really needing the others, also have a wonderful track record. Has nothing to do with democracy though.

AS for the alternative motives which others like to speculate about. Well, some of us had to live with the CAPO demanding all news outlets not to publish news that they could deem to be positive about the anti-government protesters. Didn't hear you at that time, but then maybe you were blocked out by a nasty government?

Non of this is related to growing alarm, except by those who are getting more desperate and some even ridiculous in trying to blame all except Thaksin, Yingluck, Pheu Thai, UDD and so.

Alarmingly yours,

uncle rubl

Edited June 6, 2014 by rubl

[heybruce]

In the short post-coup period we have witnessed a dramatic shift in how the country is run. Moving from primarily an astrology centered decision making process under the Shin clan, to the current Junta who prefer the old fashioned reason and logic approach. Frothers opposing the regime, both here and abroad will come to appreciate the rationale behind the coup given due time, and some gentle persuasion if needed.

Right, military governments have a great track record when it comes to making things better. When have they ever failed?

Regarding the reason and logic of the coup, nothing beyond the official explanation can be discussed here. Those who are genuinely interested in possible alternative motives of the generals need to check uncensored news sources.

Thai governments formed from ONE majority political party or as coalition with the majority partner not really needing the others, also have a wonderful track record. Has nothing to do with democracy though.

AS for the alternative motives which others like to speculate about. Well, some of us had to live with the CAPO demanding all news outlets not to publish news that they could deem to be positive about the anti-government protesters. Didn't hear you at that time, but then maybe you were blocked out by a nasty government?

Non of this is related to growing alarm, except by those who are getting more desperate and some even ridiculous in trying to blame all except Thaksin, Yingluck, Pheu Thai, UDD and so.

Alarmingly yours,

uncle rubl

Actually I've always read outside sources for my substantive news, I use the TV news forum for amusement. Nations with one dominant party, such as Japan for most of its post-war history and Mexico for most of the past 100 years, have a mixed record, but most systems have a mixed record. The record of military governments is more consistent.

But you've made yourself clear--your comfortable with censorship, you don't want news from uncensored sources, you don't need information or informed opinions that conflict with your predetermined views. Point taken.

By the way, did the CAPO back up its demands with armed soldiers and threats of being tried in military courts? Did all news outlets comply?

[rubl]

Right, military governments have a great track record when it comes to making things better. When have they ever failed?

Regarding the reason and logic of the coup, nothing beyond the official explanation can be discussed here. Those who are genuinely interested in possible alternative motives of the generals need to check uncensored news sources.

Thai governments formed from ONE majority political party or as coalition with the majority partner not really needing the others, also have a wonderful track record. Has nothing to do with democracy though.

AS for the alternative motives which others like to speculate about. Well, some of us had to live with the CAPO demanding all news outlets not to publish news that they could deem to be positive about the anti-government protesters. Didn't hear you at that time, but then maybe you were blocked out by a nasty government?

Non of this is related to growing alarm, except by those who are getting more desperate and some even ridiculous in trying to blame all except Thaksin, Yingluck, Pheu Thai, UDD and so.

Alarmingly yours,

uncle rubl

Actually I've always read outside sources for my substantive news, I use the TV news forum for amusement. Nations with one dominant party, such as Japan for most of its post-war history and Mexico for most of the past 100 years, have a mixed record, but most systems have a mixed record. The record of military governments is more consistent.

But you've made yourself clear--your comfortable with censorship, you don't want news from uncensored sources, you don't need information or informed opinions that conflict with your predetermined views. Point taken.

By the way, did the CAPO back up its demands with armed soldiers and threats of being tried in military courts? Did all news outlets comply?

Well, nice for you, but those of us in Thailand cannot see all news sources outside Thailand. Even using VPN is forbidden and was already mentioned in the Criminal Computer Act the Yingluck government liked so much.

You are mistaken to conclude that I'm comfortable with censorship. I didn't say that or even indicate that. Mind you by now all countries seem to have internet censorship. Are you comfortable with that?

As for CAPO demanding, they had the government's Emergency Decree, later replaced by ISA act. Furthermore the complete police force at the bidding of the caretaker government and Pol. Captain CAPO head Chalerm. They were very generous in passing labels like 'terrorist', 'terrorist symphatiser' and 'terrorist financer'. Lots of people had to go to court to hear the charge being made.

Anyway, SET ended on 1,458. Even if TV internationals are alarmed, Thai seem not.

Edited June 6, 2014 by rubl

[heybruce]

In the short post-coup period we have witnessed a dramatic shift in how the country is run. Moving from primarily an astrology centered decision making process under the Shin clan, to the current Junta who prefer the old fashioned reason and logic approach. Frothers opposing the regime, both here and abroad will come to appreciate the rationale behind the coup given due time, and some gentle persuasion if needed.

Right, military governments have a great track record when it comes to making things better. When have they ever failed?

Regarding the reason and logic of the coup, nothing beyond the official explanation can be discussed here. Those who are genuinely interested in possible alternative motives of the generals need to check uncensored news sources.

Never mind knocking the army, how about knocking your ridiculous non democratic, diabolical PTP led by the Shins.

3 years in office and a catastrophic collapse. They got elected and proved they could not run a effective government.

YOU have countered everybody's posts, rarely have you actually started conversations. In denial throughout, dismal poster.

Try telling us about the good there in PTP intentions---remind us all what these Mega PTP achievements in the 3 years--- I've ranted on all along about.

Again save the Suthep-Dems-elections-as being the fault. Start afresh like most eh !!! and see what we can achieve out of the rubble.

"YOU have countered everybody's posts..."

Thank you, I'm flattered. It's not easy with the current censorship.

"...rarely have you actually started conversations."

What do you want to talk about, the weather?

"In denial throughout, dismal poster."

Deny the benefits of the coup? Never. Besides, if I'm a dismal poster just ignore me.

"Try telling us about the good there in PTP intentions---remind us all what these Mega PTP achievements in the 3 years--- I've ranted on all along about."

Once again, I've repeatedly stated the PTP and Yingluck's government were incompetent. I just maintain that a July election would have allowed people the chance to express their dissatisfaction. Of course I'm not calling for elections now, that would be illegal.

I can't go into much more detail. Remember, you're allowed to freely praise the military. I'm not allowed to criticize it.

As an aside, why aren't the enthusiastic reform supporters posting suggested reforms here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/731829-public-opinion-to-be-considered-in-reform-thailand/page-2? I posted my anti-corruption suggestions on post #33.

[ginjag]

In the short post-coup period we have witnessed a dramatic shift in how the country is run. Moving from primarily an astrology centered decision making process under the Shin clan, to the current Junta who prefer the old fashioned reason and logic approach. Frothers opposing the regime, both here and abroad will come to appreciate the rationale behind the coup given due time, and some gentle persuasion if needed.

Right, military governments have a great track record when it comes to making things better. When have they ever failed?

Regarding the reason and logic of the coup, nothing beyond the official explanation can be discussed here. Those who are genuinely interested in possible alternative motives of the generals need to check uncensored news sources.

Thai governments formed from ONE majority political party or as coalition with the majority partner not really needing the others, also have a wonderful track record. Has nothing to do with democracy though.

AS for the alternative motives which others like to speculate about. Well, some of us had to live with the CAPO demanding all news outlets not to publish news that they could deem to be positive about the anti-government protesters. Didn't hear you at that time, but then maybe you were blocked out by a nasty government?

Non of this is related to growing alarm, except by those who are getting more desperate and some even ridiculous in trying to blame all except Thaksin, Yingluck, Pheu Thai, UDD and so.

Alarmingly yours,

uncle rubl

What is the word Rube for the relentless denial of these few posters. Your last sentence sums the job up.

These guys pretend to have discussion but really it's a relentless propaganda exorcise for PTP same as kindling the wood and trying to keep it alight.

The debate your having with these 2 or 3 not a debate . Mostly it's denying the wrongs of PTP and blaming anyone that can be scraped up from doomsday.

I am saying we all should wait and see how it unfolds, and be a critic of anything that goes against the interest of Thailand. example 3 years of PTP government.

the same can be evaluated after a given time of the controlling army, up to now (apart from initial TV and media cleaning) things seem to be running fairly well and stable.

This is no way a stand for military rule, but for now I go along with it. Will not bother with the relentless few that still ram down posters throats pro ex gov propaganda. just a waste of time and the same old stuff keeps surfacing.

[ginjag]

In the short post-coup period we have witnessed a dramatic shift in how the country is run. Moving from primarily an astrology centered decision making process under the Shin clan, to the current Junta who prefer the old fashioned reason and logic approach. Frothers opposing the regime, both here and abroad will come to appreciate the rationale behind the coup given due time, and some gentle persuasion if needed.

Right, military governments have a great track record when it comes to making things better. When have they ever failed?

Regarding the reason and logic of the coup, nothing beyond the official explanation can be discussed here. Those who are genuinely interested in possible alternative motives of the generals need to check uncensored news sources.

Never mind knocking the army, how about knocking your ridiculous non democratic, diabolical PTP led by the Shins.

3 years in office and a catastrophic collapse. They got elected and proved they could not run a effective government.

YOU have countered everybody's posts, rarely have you actually started conversations. In denial throughout, dismal poster.

Try telling us about the good there in PTP intentions---remind us all what these Mega PTP achievements in the 3 years--- I've ranted on all along about.

Again save the Suthep-Dems-elections-as being the fault. Start afresh like most eh !!! and see what we can achieve out of the rubble.

"YOU have countered everybody's posts..."

Thank you, I'm flattered. It's not easy with the current censorship.

"...rarely have you actually started conversations."

What do you want to talk about, the weather?

"In denial throughout, dismal poster."

Deny the benefits of the coup? Never. Besides, if I'm a dismal poster just ignore me.

"Try telling us about the good there in PTP intentions---remind us all what these Mega PTP achievements in the 3 years--- I've ranted on all along about."

Once again, I've repeatedly stated the PTP and Yingluck's government were incompetent. I just maintain that a July election would have allowed people the chance to express their dissatisfaction. Of course I'm not calling for elections now, that would be illegal.

I can't go into much more detail. Remember, you're allowed to freely praise the military. I'm not allowed to criticize it.

As an aside, why aren't the enthusiastic reform supporters posting suggested reforms here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/731829-public-opinion-to-be-considered-in-reform-thailand/page-2? I posted my anti-corruption suggestions on post #33.

Fine so why in heavens name do you relentlessly say the PTP were incompetent, is that all they were.????

Time and time again you have to be informed that until some very knowledgeable people get the reforms written and completed and mulled over Elections are a no go. We must have a sound--clean base for elections not rushed ones to get a quick result. Now it's about sorting out a mega mess. No other choice than have the army in to do it------who would you suggest ??? there is no other body at this time.

I have just answered Rubes post and put my feelings, we did tolerate PTP for a while until we mostly found out what the motives were and they were not for the Thai nation.

I will say lets tolerate the army for now and see how things go, as we did 3 years ago.

Remember Yingluck saying to the Thai nation "after 1 year in office Please give me time" we did THEN ??? Give the general time.

[heybruce]

Right, military governments have a great track record when it comes to making things better. When have they ever failed?

Regarding the reason and logic of the coup, nothing beyond the official explanation can be discussed here. Those who are genuinely interested in possible alternative motives of the generals need to check uncensored news sources.

Thai governments formed from ONE majority political party or as coalition with the majority partner not really needing the others, also have a wonderful track record. Has nothing to do with democracy though.

AS for the alternative motives which others like to speculate about. Well, some of us had to live with the CAPO demanding all news outlets not to publish news that they could deem to be positive about the anti-government protesters. Didn't hear you at that time, but then maybe you were blocked out by a nasty government?

Non of this is related to growing alarm, except by those who are getting more desperate and some even ridiculous in trying to blame all except Thaksin, Yingluck, Pheu Thai, UDD and so.

Alarmingly yours,

uncle rubl

Actually I've always read outside sources for my substantive news, I use the TV news forum for amusement. Nations with one dominant party, such as Japan for most of its post-war history and Mexico for most of the past 100 years, have a mixed record, but most systems have a mixed record. The record of military governments is more consistent.

But you've made yourself clear--your comfortable with censorship, you don't want news from uncensored sources, you don't need information or informed opinions that conflict with your predetermined views. Point taken.

By the way, did the CAPO back up its demands with armed soldiers and threats of being tried in military courts? Did all news outlets comply?

Well, nice for you, but those of us in Thailand cannot see all news sources outside Thailand. Even using VPN is forbidden and was already mentioned in the Criminal Computer Act the Yingluck government liked so much.

You are mistaken to conclude that I'm comfortable with censorship. I didn't say that or even indicate that. Mind you by now all countries seem to have internet censorship. Are you comfortable with that?

As for CAPO demanding, they had the government's Emergency Decree, later replaced by ISA act. Furthermore the complete police force at the bidding of the caretaker government and Pol. Captain CAPO head Chalerm. They were very generous in passing labels like 'terrorist', 'terrorist symphatiser' and 'terrorist financer'. Lots of people had to go to court to hear the charge being made.

Anyway, SET ended on 1,458. Even if TV internationals are alarmed, Thai seem not.

"Well, nice for you, but those of us in Thailand cannot see all news sources outside Thailand. Even using VPN is forbidden and was already mentioned in the Criminal Computer Act the Yingluck government liked so much."

That's the first time I've read that VPN is illegal. I'm not sure how they would catch anyone using it.

There are many news sources on the web that are uncensored and easily accessible in Thailand. Some require subscriptions, many don't. Use your imagination and a search engine. As far as I know it's still legal to look for news on the web, there's just some information you can't disseminate in Thailand.

"Lots of people had to go to court to hear the charge being made."

How many prosecutions and convictions? How many were held for a week without charges or access to a lawyer so they could be talked to and "think about what they did"?

"Mind you by now all countries seem to have internet censorship. Are you comfortable with that?"

Depends on what they're censoring. I have no problem with laws against disseminating child pornography on the internet.

[rubl]

As an aside, why aren't the enthusiastic reform supporters posting suggested reforms here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/731829-public-opinion-to-be-considered-in-reform-thailand/page-2? I posted my anti-corruption suggestions on post #33.

Just to humour you I did reply, even if as legal-alien I will not be asked for my input.

[rubl]

Actually I've always read outside sources for my substantive news, I use the TV news forum for amusement. Nations with one dominant party, such as Japan for most of its post-war history and Mexico for most of the past 100 years, have a mixed record, but most systems have a mixed record. The record of military governments is more consistent.

But you've made yourself clear--your comfortable with censorship, you don't want news from uncensored sources, you don't need information or informed opinions that conflict with your predetermined views. Point taken.

By the way, did the CAPO back up its demands with armed soldiers and threats of being tried in military courts? Did all news outlets comply?

Well, nice for you, but those of us in Thailand cannot see all news sources outside Thailand. Even using VPN is forbidden and was already mentioned in the Criminal Computer Act the Yingluck government liked so much.

You are mistaken to conclude that I'm comfortable with censorship. I didn't say that or even indicate that. Mind you by now all countries seem to have internet censorship. Are you comfortable with that?

As for CAPO demanding, they had the government's Emergency Decree, later replaced by ISA act. Furthermore the complete police force at the bidding of the caretaker government and Pol. Captain CAPO head Chalerm. They were very generous in passing labels like 'terrorist', 'terrorist symphatiser' and 'terrorist financer'. Lots of people had to go to court to hear the charge being made.

Anyway, SET ended on 1,458. Even if TV internationals are alarmed, Thai seem not.

"Well, nice for you, but those of us in Thailand cannot see all news sources outside Thailand. Even using VPN is forbidden and was already mentioned in the Criminal Computer Act the Yingluck government liked so much."

That's the first time I've read that VPN is illegal. I'm not sure how they would catch anyone using it.

There are many news sources on the web that are uncensored and easily accessible in Thailand. Some require subscriptions, many don't. Use your imagination and a search engine. As far as I know it's still legal to look for news on the web, there's just some information you can't disseminate in Thailand.

"Lots of people had to go to court to hear the charge being made."

How many prosecutions and convictions? How many were held for a week without charges or access to a lawyer so they could be talked to and "think about what they did"?

"Mind you by now all countries seem to have internet censorship. Are you comfortable with that?"

Depends on what they're censoring. I have no problem with laws against disseminating child pornography on the internet.

Well, it seems you learned something new today. Bypassing censorship is illegal, describing how to use VPN to do such is against forum rules, imagine None has anything to do with you not being sure how they can catch perpetrators.

As for how many prosecution / convictions, welcome to Thailand, and queue up. Also ALL people involved in the initial talks just before the coup were held for a week and those who still had to hear charges brought against them were escorted to the courts, with compliments of the Army. None held for a week had a lawyer, none was required, just read up on the Military Law in place currently. In general you should do some more reading, not only those bits which conform to your believes. After hearing charges and having bail granted, people go home, waiting for the court to start the case. Cases from years ago still progressing slowly, some come with hundreds of witnesses for or against. Takes time to plan, to execute.

As for depending what they are censoring, well how to define 'inappropriate', 'untruths', 'hate speeches', 'against government policy'. A very thin line. Some might even conclude that your posts are on the wrong side of that line

[heybruce]

But you've made yourself clear--your comfortable with censorship, you don't want news from uncensored sources, you don't need information or informed opinions that conflict with your predetermined views. Point taken.

By the way, did the CAPO back up its demands with armed soldiers and threats of being tried in military courts? Did all news outlets comply?

Well, nice for you, but those of us in Thailand cannot see all news sources outside Thailand. Even using VPN is forbidden and was already mentioned in the Criminal Computer Act the Yingluck government liked so much.

You are mistaken to conclude that I'm comfortable with censorship. I didn't say that or even indicate that. Mind you by now all countries seem to have internet censorship. Are you comfortable with that?

As for CAPO demanding, they had the government's Emergency Decree, later replaced by ISA act. Furthermore the complete police force at the bidding of the caretaker government and Pol. Captain CAPO head Chalerm. They were very generous in passing labels like 'terrorist', 'terrorist symphatiser' and 'terrorist financer'. Lots of people had to go to court to hear the charge being made.

Anyway, SET ended on 1,458. Even if TV internationals are alarmed, Thai seem not.

"Well, nice for you, but those of us in Thailand cannot see all news sources outside Thailand. Even using VPN is forbidden and was already mentioned in the Criminal Computer Act the Yingluck government liked so much."

That's the first time I've read that VPN is illegal. I'm not sure how they would catch anyone using it.

There are many news sources on the web that are uncensored and easily accessible in Thailand. Some require subscriptions, many don't. Use your imagination and a search engine. As far as I know it's still legal to look for news on the web, there's just some information you can't disseminate in Thailand.

"Lots of people had to go to court to hear the charge being made."

How many prosecutions and convictions? How many were held for a week without charges or access to a lawyer so they could be talked to and "think about what they did"?

"Mind you by now all countries seem to have internet censorship. Are you comfortable with that?"

Depends on what they're censoring. I have no problem with laws against disseminating child pornography on the internet.

Well, it seems you learned something new today. Bypassing censorship is illegal, describing how to use VPN to do such is against forum rules, imagine None has anything to do with you not being sure how they can catch perpetrators.

As for how many prosecution / convictions, welcome to Thailand, and queue up. Also ALL people involved in the initial talks just before the coup were held for a week and those who still had to hear charges brought against them were escorted to the courts, with compliments of the Army. None held for a week had a lawyer, none was required, just read up on the Military Law in place currently. In general you should do some more reading, not only those bits which conform to your believes. After hearing charges and having bail granted, people go home, waiting for the court to start the case. Cases from years ago still progressing slowly, some come with hundreds of witnesses for or against. Takes time to plan, to execute.

As for depending what they are censoring, well how to define 'inappropriate', 'untruths', 'hate speeches', 'against government policy'. A very thin line. Some might even conclude that your posts are on the wrong side of that line

First paragraph: Please reference the order or law that says it is illegal to read news that originated outside of Thailand. Also, please reference the law that says it's illegal to use a VPN. Also, point out how I explained how to use a VPN; I'd have to look for instructions to set one up. In fact I didn't know they would allow access to blocked sites, and I'm still not convinced. I think when a website is blocked it's blocked, regardless of the internet link used.

As you may have guessed, I don't use a VPN.

Second paragraph: Lots of people were held for a week. That makes it ok then.

Third paragraph: Child pornography can be legally defined in reasonably precise terms. With the qualified exception of "untruths" the rest of your terms are pretty difficult to define. "Some might even conclude..." indicates the vagueness of these terms. Do you advocate censoring lots of stuff, just to make sure you don't miss anything?

You know you're coming across as a volunteer vigilante.

[fab4]

Well, it seems you learned something new today. Bypassing censorship is illegal, describing how to use VPN to do such is against forum rules, imagine None has anything to do with you not being sure how they can catch perpetrators.

As for how many prosecution / convictions, welcome to Thailand, and queue up. Also ALL people involved in the initial talks just before the coup were held for a week and those who still had to hear charges brought against them were escorted to the courts, with compliments of the Army. None held for a week had a lawyer, none was required, just read up on the Military Law in place currently. In general you should do some more reading, not only those bits which conform to your believes. After hearing charges and having bail granted, people go home, waiting for the court to start the case. Cases from years ago still progressing slowly, some come with hundreds of witnesses for or against. Takes time to plan, to execute.

As for depending what they are censoring, well how to define 'inappropriate', 'untruths', 'hate speeches', 'against government policy'. A very thin line. Some might even conclude that your posts are on the wrong side of that line

First paragraph: Please reference the order or law that says it is illegal to read news that originated outside of Thailand. Also, please reference the law that says it's illegal to use a VPN. Also, point out how I explained how to use a VPN; I'd have to look for instructions to set one up. In fact I didn't know they would allow access to blocked sites, and I'm still not convinced. I think when a website is blocked it's blocked, regardless of the internet link used.

As you may have guessed, I don't use a VPN.

Second paragraph: Lots of people were held for a week. That makes it ok then.

Third paragraph: Child pornography can be legally defined in reasonably precise terms. With the qualified exception of "untruths" the rest of your terms are pretty difficult to define. "Some might even conclude..." indicates the vagueness of these terms. Do you advocate censoring lots of stuff, just to make sure you don't miss anything?

You know you're coming across as a volunteer vigilante.

Volunteer vigilante's - There's been a few threats that way on this forum recently, I can't for the life of me think what possesses people like that. Some disguise it in a way that it appears that they're only providing a public service and "wouldn't want the Forum to get into trouble". Really unpleasant individuals, the lot of them.