Will you need a work permit? Rule of Thumb answer is here

[JouniF]

This gets asked over and over again:

If I come to Thailand and do X, will I need a work permit?

The confusion around the matter is understandable for many reasons, one of which is the very definition of "work". It's very difficult to define work, if you think about, anything you do could be called "work", anything from breathing, eating, walking and so on.

That being said, from my experiences with how things work in Thailand (and in other countries, too), here is what I call the Rule of Thumb answer on whether you need a work permit:

Is what you are about to do, something that people are generally willing to pay for?

If the answer is yes, you will probably need a work permit.

If the answer is no, you most likely do not need a work permit.


Examples

Do I need a work permit for teaching Yoga? Answer: Yes. Teaching Yoga is something that people are willing to pay for, there are thousands of professional yoga teachers around the world who get paid for teaching Yoga.

Do I need a work permit for teaching English without any salary? Answer: Yes. Teaching English is something that people are generally willing to pay for. Whether you ask money for your service or not makes no difference, all work in Thailand requires a work permit, even if you work without a pay.

Do I need a work permit for jogging? Answer: No. Jogging, while it can be called work in the meaning that it is hard work in physical sense, it is not something that people are generally willing to pay for, therefore it's not work. In other word, people are not generally willing to pay for you to jog for them, therefore it is not work.

Do I need a work permit for developing websites online, from my own home to foreign customers? Answer: Yes. People are generally willing to pay for development of websites and therefore it's clearly work, where you work (online, offline, home, office, by the pool) makes no difference in regards of the work permit, nor does it make any difference where your customers are locate at (inside or outside of Thailand).

Do I need a work permit for owning stocks? Answer: No. Generally speaking, no one is willing to pay someone to "own a stock", thus simply owning a stock is not work any more than owning a bank account.

Do I need a work permit for watering the flowers in my garden? Answer: No. Generally speaking, no one is willing to pay you to water the flowers in your own garden, thus, it's not work.

Do I need a work permit for watering the flowers of someone else's garden? Answer: Yes. If you are watering flowers around the neighborhood, you are essentially a gardener, whether you get paid for this or not makes no difference.

Do I need a work permit for writing a book that I will give to my friends and family? Answer: Probably not. Writing a book to one's friends, is not generally speaking something that people are willing to pay for.

Do I need a work permit for writing a book that I will get published? Answer: Probably yes. People are generally willing to pay for writing books that get published, it's called being an author and that's real work.

Do I need a work permit for cooking for myself and my family a meal? Answer: No. People are generally speaking not interested of paying you money to feed yourself and your family.

Do I need a work permit for building myself a boat? Answer: Yes! Here is where the rule of thumb fails. There are reports of people getting deported for violation work permit requirements because they were building themselves a boat as a hobby, even as generally speaking no one is not willing to pay you to build a boat for yourself.

Disclaimer: The rule of thumb is, just that, a generalization, it is not 100% accurate. I'm not a lawyer and this is not a legal advice. It's just a pointer to help you to get on (hopefully) to the right track.

Edited May 26, 2014 by JouniF

[Spoonman]

Sounds like I need my home address added to my workpermit so I can keep "working" on my hobbies.

[JLCrab]

My rule of thumb: You don't need a work permit until somone in authority tells you that contrary to Thai Labor Law you are working without a work permit; then it is too late.

Edited May 26, 2014 by JLCrab

[CharlesHH]

This msg needs to also deal with volunteering. Volunteering to carry feed to elephants for no pay needs a work permit.

However, when dealing with a super vague rule, no one, not even Jonu..., can make definitive statements. Govts around the world make super vague rules so that they can clamp down on someone who is also otherwise undesirable or who is complained about.

The better basic rule about all foreigner behavior in Thailand is that if there is no complaint, there is no action. Think for a moment, at least, about the ludicrous idea of a "work permit sweep" against people using the Internet from their Thailand homes. However, an annoying barking dog can be stopped by the one annoyed reporting the owner to police for work permit violations. THEN, with official investigations, the dog owner can be found in WP violation, based on hundreds of thousands of possible actions he does (trimming his own trees? etc.). Knowing that this is how Thai behave, that is avoiding direct confrontation, and this is how foreigners get into hot water.

Keep a low profile, smile and compliment neighbors, and be quiet.

[David48]

Khun Joun ... thanks for that ...

I came to Thailand and planned to do SFA.

While not on your list, I will presume that a work permit is not required for that ...

[JLCrab]

Should they ever desire, a working-on-internet sweep woud hardly be necessary; at least those on tourist visa have declared that they aren't engaged in an occupation or profession so a few questions at immigration on source of funds may expose a false declaration -- again, should they ever choose to take that route.

Edited May 26, 2014 by JLCrab

[CharlesHH]

Not complete......... WPs are for stated purposes, not blanket "working on anything," and a stated employer (who has to supply documentation to justify hiring a foreigner for that stated purpose) is also necessary. Even "your" Thailand company, legally owned by a Thai like your wife, must certify all that and FOR A SPECIFIC JOB.

It is not just where you work but more important what work you are doing and for whom.

Sounds like I need my home address added to my workpermit so I can keep "working" on my hobbies.

[Spoonman]

Not complete......... WPs are for stated purposes, not blanket "working on anything," and a stated employer (who has to supply documentation to justify hiring a foreigner for that stated purpose) is also necessary. Even "your" Thailand company, legally owned by a Thai like your wife, must certify all that and FOR A SPECIFIC JOB.

It is not just where you work but more important what work you are doing and for whom.

Sounds like I need my home address added to my workpermit so I can keep "working" on my hobbies.

The work permit does not have to cover every single aspect of your daily workload (that would impossible as I work in a prototype workshop performing many many different tasks). if it was though my hobbies could easily be described under the scope of my daily activities and as my employer pays my rent I can't see why my place of residence could not be listed on my work permit.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Spoonman

[LivinLOS]

Do I need a work permit for owning stocks? Answer: No. Generally speaking, no one is willing to pay someone to "own a stock", thus simply owning a stock is not work any more than owning a bank account.

A dividend payment is precisely the payment a company makes for someone who owns a stock, directly as per your quote.

Secondly every broker I have used over the last 10 years held shares on my behalf and not issued me with the share certs in my name.. For this there is a cost, be it a direct one or one built into sales commissions and broker activity.

[LukKrueng]

Why do you have to guess if you need a WP or not? There is a FREE "ask the lawyer" section of TV and I already saw some specific questions / answers about WP's.

As for "if not caught no need WP", well, in a way no one EVER, ANYWHERE in the world was punished because they committed a crime, but rather for getting caught....

If you want a simple rule of thumb it is very easy. If you LIVE in Thailand (not visiting, on SHORT!! vacation) and you make a living somehow, you need a work permit which as was mentioned above already is SPECIFIC for you position in a SPECIFIC company and a SPECIFIC location. If your company has more than 1 location in which you have to perform your duties, then all those locations should be listed in your work permit. For example - if you are a chef in a restaurant in 123 some street BKK and they open another branch in 345 other street any city, and you are performing your chef duties in the other location, you are in violation of your WP. But if the company added the new address to your WP, you can perform your duties in both locations.

Investing in the stock market usually does not constitute as work unless you are a broker or maybe if this is your main/only source of income (have to "ask the Lawyer" for legal advise on this)

[Arif Khalil]

Good post OP but if you change the word 'you' with 'a Thai' that will make lot more sense. There are always exceptions so working on some things like cooking for you and family, and cleaning after you and the maintaining inside your residence. Secondly, volunteering to rip off a Thai of her/his livelihood/earning is rather an exception added by Thailand not many of the other countries would do that

[Lunghans]

"Do I need a work permit for writing a book that I will get published? Answer: Probably yes. People are generally willing to pay for writing books that get published, it's called being an author and that's real work".

​So this is in reality impossible because you are never able to get a WP for this activity. Who wants to write a book and then start a 49/51% company with a Thai national and employ 4 Thai people to help you write this book?

[Strangebrew]

If it generates income for you yes if doing it inside the Kingdom Period that would even be if you were playing in a golf tournement that had a prise to win.

[trd]

>Do I need a work permit for writing a book that I will get published? Answer: Probably yes. People are generally willing to pay for writing books that get published, it's called being an author and that's real work.<

But if you are writing a book, in most cases unless you are a well known author with an existing publisher willing to pay you an advance, you will have to finish the book first and then find a publisher with no guarantee it will ever see the light of day. I'd say that wouldn't qualify as work and therefore no need for a WP. How would you enforce it on someone sitting in front of a computer bashing out what is hoped to be the next best seller. Or to take it to a ridiculous level. I am sitting in a coffee shop and suddenly I have a great idea for a novel and start scribbling on a napkin. Bang, you're nicked!

What about if you are a writer who has been paid an advance in the UK, but then comes here to actually write the book.

[Stan7444]

Not complete......... WPs are for stated purposes, not blanket "working on anything," and a stated employer (who has to supply documentation to justify hiring a foreigner for that stated purpose) is also necessary. Even "your" Thailand company, legally owned by a Thai like your wife, must certify all that and FOR A SPECIFIC JOB.

It is not just where you work but more important what work you are doing and for whom.

Sounds like I need my home address added to my workpermit so I can keep "working" on my hobbies.

For further clarification purposes, a Thailand Work Permit is specific to a Province and not valid nationally, which one needs to be careful about. There was the case of a foreign executive for a car company based in Bangkok who visited dealerships in other parts of the country. He was eventually caught and kicked out of Thailand and I understand was also blacklisted.

[BangkokGastronaut]

As virtually every type of work in the kingdom requires you to have a work permit, the real rub is meeting the criteria to get one - this is where many people fall down. This then becomes the reason why they don't apply for a work permit, because they know they wouldn't be issued with one. How many English teachers are out there without a degree from a recognised university? Rather a lot I suspect. So it's a bit of a Catch 22 for many. Do you need a work permit. Yes. Can you get one? No. Do you risk working without a WP or subvert the process? Your call....

[ubonjoe]

For further clarification purposes, a Thailand Work Permit is specific to a Province and not valid nationally, which one needs to be careful about. There was the case of a foreign executive for a car company based in Bangkok who visited dealerships in other parts of the country. He was eventually caught and kicked out of Thailand and I understand was also blacklisted.

That sounds like one of the rumors that are always floating around.

It is possible to have a work permit that allows you to work at more than one location if the job requires it.

[Stan7444]

I tried on Ask the Lawyer to post the following today, but the TV server had a problem is seems and did not get posted.

One of the questions about Work Permit requirements in Thailand is the case of attending a Trade Show or Conference, possibly as a guest speaker. Many companies send their people here to staff trade shows and they are therefore engaged in trying to sell their company products and services. Do these people need to have a Work Permit to perform these duties? Technically, I would guess the answer is yes they do need one. However, how many do you think actually get a Work Permit and are on a Tourist or Business Visa? How about business people from other countries visiting Thailand and attending a Chamber of Commerce or other such business meetings, for the purpose of selling their products and services, or for doing a presentation on their company? Do they require a WP as well?

With the AEC around the corner, and many professionals, including doctors, lawyers, academics, etc. will be able to travel to Thailand to pursue these professions, when is Thailand going to move out of the 19th Century with their antiquated labour laws and recognize this is now a global economy with people flying into the country every day for business purposes. They might have meetings in Bangkok one day then Chang Mai the next day, which would require two different WPs since WPs are specific to a Province. Makes one wonder how the Labour Dept. will be attaching these issues?

[phuketrichard]

expats arrested for 'Working " in their back yard casue they were buidling a boat for themsleves cause someone else could have built for them?

Taking photos of my daughters graduation? Work yes cause someone could ( and probaly was ) paid to do it as well

sorry, dont buy it

work is work reagardless if your paid or not and whatever you do , IF your doing it without a work permit an upset someone and they report you... ur screwed.

[Stan7444]

For further clarification purposes, a Thailand Work Permit is specific to a Province and not valid nationally, which one needs to be careful about. There was the case of a foreign executive for a car company based in Bangkok who visited dealerships in other parts of the country. He was eventually caught and kicked out of Thailand and I understand was also blacklisted.

That sounds like one of the rumors that are always floating around.

It is possible to have a work permit that allows you to work at more than one location if the job requires it.

Not a rumor but fact since got it directly from the Labour Dept. when I formed my company. If they were untruthful, hard to believe in Thailand, then please provide the legal reference so we can all learn the correct procedure. Thx.

[NomadJoe]

Its also important to note that foreigners volunteering for a single event lasting just one day to a few days do not need a work permit. Examples: The Laguna marathon, the Navy League 4th of July Airshow, reef and beach clean-ups, Kings Cup Regatta etc.

[NomadJoe]

For further clarification purposes, a Thailand Work Permit is specific to a Province and not valid nationally, which one needs to be careful about. There was the case of a foreign executive for a car company based in Bangkok who visited dealerships in other parts of the country. He was eventually caught and kicked out of Thailand and I understand was also blacklisted.

That sounds like one of the rumors that are always floating around.

It is possible to have a work permit that allows you to work at more than one location if the job requires it.

Not a rumor but fact since got it directly from the Labour Dept. when I formed my company. If they were untruthful, hard to believe in Thailand, then please provide the legal reference so we can all learn the correct procedure. Thx.

I used to have a work permit from a company based in Bangkok. I was based in Phuket and traveled the entire southern region of Thailand for work. This issue was brought up by me at both the time of issue and renewal. For what it's worth, according to the accountant, the labour dept in Bangkok insured us that it was not a problem. However I was never challenged by immigration in any of the southern provinces. I suspected that if I did it would have generated some phone calls north before being sorted.

Also note that the labour department and police in Phuket have agreed just this week that in the case of dive instructors, having other provinces listed in the description section is enough. This is an issue because several of the dive sites Phuket divers take their students are located in other provinces. (Phangna, Krabi, Ranong)

Edited May 26, 2014 by NomadJoe

[Soutpeel]

For further clarification purposes, a Thailand Work Permit is specific to a Province and not valid nationally, which one needs to be careful about. There was the case of a foreign executive for a car company based in Bangkok who visited dealerships in other parts of the country. He was eventually caught and kicked out of Thailand and I understand was also blacklisted.

That sounds like one of the rumors that are always floating around.

It is possible to have a work permit that allows you to work at more than one location if the job requires it.

Yes it is possible because I have one...

[Soutpeel]

I tried on Ask the Lawyer to post the following today, but the TV server had a problem is seems and did not get posted.

One of the questions about Work Permit requirements in Thailand is the case of attending a Trade Show or Conference, possibly as a guest speaker. Many companies send their people here to staff trade shows and they are therefore engaged in trying to sell their company products and services. Do these people need to have a Work Permit to perform these duties? Technically, I would guess the answer is yes they do need one. However, how many do you think actually get a Work Permit and are on a Tourist or Business Visa? How about business people from other countries visiting Thailand and attending a Chamber of Commerce or other such business meetings, for the purpose of selling their products and services, or for doing a presentation on their company? Do they require a WP as well?

With the AEC around the corner, and many professionals, including doctors, lawyers, academics, etc. will be able to travel to Thailand to pursue these professions, when is Thailand going to move out of the 19th Century with their antiquated labour laws and recognize this is now a global economy with people flying into the country every day for business purposes. They might have meetings in Bangkok one day then Chang Mai the next day, which would require two different WPs since WPs are specific to a Province. Makes one wonder how the Labour Dept. will be attaching these issues?

The simple answer to almost all your comments....its called a Temporary Work permit, valid 14 days and is free...

[Soutpeel]

For further clarification purposes, a Thailand Work Permit is specific to a Province and not valid nationally, which one needs to be careful about. There was the case of a foreign executive for a car company based in Bangkok who visited dealerships in other parts of the country. He was eventually caught and kicked out of Thailand and I understand was also blacklisted.

That sounds like one of the rumors that are always floating around.

It is possible to have a work permit that allows you to work at more than one location if the job requires it.

Not a rumor but fact since got it directly from the Labour Dept. when I formed my company. If they were untruthful, hard to believe in Thailand, then please provide the legal reference so we can all learn the correct procedure. Thx.

There is no legal reference and you know it, but whether one is permitted to work multiple locations is all down to what is written in the job description in the paper work submitted to the DOL, in the job description person concerned "will be required to work at multiple locations country wide for XYZ reasons" then this is permissible to the DOL

[bkk_mike]

The problem is you can't always get a work permit for living in Thailand while working remotely in another country.

There's no Thai company to stick on the application form.

And you're an EMPLOYEE of the company abroad, which means you can't set up a company to pay yourself through.

Immigration did stop me once on entry and asked how I supported my family because I spent so much time in Thailand, but showing my Hong Kong business card and work permit, along with my marriage visa, sufficed.

[simon43]

The OP mentioned an exception to his rule of thumb (building a boat for yourself).

I remember the original news report about this in Phuket. AFAIR, the guy who built the boat had previously built several other boats for himself - and then sold them! So he was building the boats for monetary gain.

[Spoonman]

So I should pull the advert for the bike I have modified and am selling ?

[kannot]

Khun Joun ... thanks for that ...

I came to Thailand and planned to do SFA.

While not on your list, I will presume that a work permit is not required for that ...

wrong again, a Thai could do ( and Ive seen it for real) SFA

[LivinLOS]

If it generates income for you yes if doing it inside the Kingdom Period that would even be if you were playing in a golf tournement that had a prise to win.

However the 'paid or unpaid' makes no difference to the Thai rules..