Denied Entry - Same As Blacklisting?

[realenglish1]

Everyone is missing the Point He was denied because of the amount of stamps he had and they believed he had been working Just get a new passport thats it Problem solved No stamps and you where not black listed just denied

Edited May 29, 2014 by ubonjoe
Removed a inflammatory comment

[MacWalen]

Everyone is missing the Point He was denied because of the amount of stamps he had and they believed he had been working Just get a new passport thats it Problem solved No stamps and you where not black listed just denied

Not sure if that works, it may work for now but apparently immigration is going digital and they can check the visa history so having a new passport may not work much longer.

[ubonjoe]

Everyone is missing the Point He was denied because of the amount of stamps he had and they believed he had been working Just get a new passport thats it Problem solved No stamps and you where not black listed just denied

Getting a new passport will not work. Immigration has records of all entries and departures in their database and the ability to do a name and date of birth check.

[Soutpeel]

Everyone is missing the Point He was denied because of the amount of stamps he had and they believed he had been working Just get a new passport thats it Problem solved No stamps and you where not black listed just denied

Getting a new passport will not work. Immigration has records of all entries and departures in their database and the ability to do a name and date of birth check.

and they have a photo of your smiling face as well, very easy to cross check if someone is using an new PP

[MacWalen]

Everyone is missing the Point He was denied because of the amount of stamps he had and they believed he had been working Just get a new passport thats it Problem solved No stamps and you where not black listed just denied

Getting a new passport will not work. Immigration has records of all entries and departures in their database and the ability to do a name and date of birth check.

So there you are. It is very common to hear that the solution of all past visa problems is getting a new passport.

[Soutpeel]

ED Visa extension

Happened a couple of weeks ago

So he had an extension of stay (it is not a visa) for attending school. Did he have a valid re-entry permit?

Without a re-entry permit he would of only been able to get visa exempt entry if he is from country that qualifies for one..

I'd like to ask, why would you say an extension to a visa is not a visa?

What about a year's extension to a non-B? Is that also not a visa?

If your on an extension of stay, be it for employment ie "B" , being married "O" etc....you are not on a visa any more

[Cypress Hill]

Everyone is missing the Point He was denied because of the amount of stamps he had and they believed he had been working Just get a new passport thats it Problem solved No stamps and you where not black listed just denied

Getting a new passport will not work. Immigration has records of all entries and departures in their database and the ability to do a name and date of birth check.

But I've heard untold stories about people getting new passports, new visas and then walking into the country as if nothing had ever happened. I assumed that immigration just did a visual inspection of the passport and the holder and that was it. Thought they only checked in depth if they decided to hold someone up.

Anyway, like I said, the guy was denied entry, not blacklisted. As you said earlier, if he can provide evidence of having money to sustain himself in Thailand without working - which he's never done - he should be ok, right?

Surely, if immigration didn't want him here, they would have simply blacklisted him, no?

[oldthaihand99]

Showing money coming from outside the country would be proof that he was not working.

Specificly what would show this?

1. Cash? How much? 20,000 baht? Equivalent in other currency or in combination with traveller's checks? Who could prove these monies were not from working in Thailand?

2. Recent bank statements? How could anyone prove the funds shown there were not from working in Thailand?

3. Recent income tax returns showing income earned & the source?

4. Pension or annuity documents showing payments from a source outside of Siam?

5. ATM slips from withdrawals inside LOS?

Edited May 29, 2014 by oldthaihand99

[MacWalen]

Everyone is missing the Point He was denied because of the amount of stamps he had and they believed he had been working Just get a new passport thats it Problem solved No stamps and you where not black listed just denied

Getting a new passport will not work. Immigration has records of all entries and departures in their database and the ability to do a name and date of birth check.

But I've heard untold stories about people getting new passports, new visas and then walking into the country as if nothing had ever happened. I assumed that immigration just did a visual inspection of the passport and the holder and that was it. Thought they only checked in depth if they decided to hold someone up.

Anyway, like I said, the guy was denied entry, not blacklisted. As you said earlier, if he can provide evidence of having money to sustain himself in Thailand without working - which he's never done - he should be ok, right?

Surely, if immigration didn't want him here, they would have simply blacklisted him, no?

Me too, and it may still work, getting a new passport and all visa problems are gone. I wonder if there are any reports of people with new passports encountering problems.

[Soutpeel]

Surely, if immigration didn't want him here, they would have simply blacklisted him, no?

I don't think immigration alone can declare someone legally persona non grata, however what they could do is put a mark against his name, not to allow entry, although the effect is same someone is not allowed in the country, they are not officially blacklisted...

[ThaidDown]

Surely, if immigration didn't want him here, they would have simply blacklisted him, no?

Frontline Immigration Officers do not have the power to just blacklist someone. It is signed off at a much higher level and usually down for criminality reasons.. They do, however , have the power to deny entry.

Ref the changing of passports, this used to be the the way to do things, but with better databases, photos being taken and possibly finger printing of all at entry point this is going to be increasingly more difficult in the future (does not just apply to Thailand)

[Cypress Hill]

Not looking good, is it? Seems like the immigration just refused him entry with nothing more than suspicion and, in doing so, more or less stuffed his life.

If what's been said here is true, he can never see his kid because he can't get into the country to sort the legals.

Shocking that immigration have this kind of power

[ovenman]

Not looking good, is it? Seems like the immigration just refused him entry with nothing more than suspicion and, in doing so, more or less stuffed his life.

If what's been said here is true, he can never see his kid because he can't get into the country to sort the legals.

Shocking that immigration have this kind of power

Do you know whether immigrations actually stamped denied or something to that effect in his passport. If not, seems like he would be okay to give it another try.

[Tomtomtom69]

Let's hope this is not part of a disturbing trend of legitimate travelers who've spent a bit more time in Thailand than others (without knowing how much is "too much" time spent in Thailand) being knocked back willy-nilly. While I am all for cracking down on visa abusers, particularly those living on back-to-back visa exempt stamps, there is not enough info in the OP and subsequent replies about his friend's circumstances, other than he was on an ED visa extension, can't speak Thai but has a kid as to ascertain WHY he was denied.

To help our members avoid similar problems at immigration (BTW I'm reading more reports on TV about denied entry at Suvarnabhumi and other airports such as Phuket than at land borders despite a supposed crackdown being implemented at Suvarnabhumi taking effect only in August rather than now) it would be nice to have the following questions answered:

Exactly how long has he been living in Thailand on ED visas or tourist visa, or combination thereof, specifically? At least give us some kind of rough history, for example, 2009, spent 6 months in Thailand on a double entry TV, followed by a non-B for 3 months, followed by an absence of 1 month and then a 1-year ED visa, etc.

How much time did he spend outside of Thailand prior to this most recent re-entry and in general how much time has he spent outside of Thailand during the past 5 years?

Are you sure he definitely hasn't been working in the Kingdom whilst on either a tourist visa or an ED visa?

Did he have financial proof with him, and did he show this to the officers?

Was he in any way rude or aggressive towards the officers when he was questioned?

Did he have a return or onward flight ticket, or itinerary for his stay (although I believe this shouldn't be asked for, if you are on an ED visa).

Was he questioned in Thai by immigration, to which he wasn't able to answer (given he can't speak even basic Thai, according to your admission?)

I'm quite sure the answers to these questions will give us a clearer picture as to why he was denied.

As with the story of the Russian lady who was denied at Phuket, there is usually more to a story than is initially reported. It's on the basis of little information to go on (other than a report of a denial) that the scaremongering starts and rumours and accusations are thrown around that immigration can and will turn back just about anyone from now on. While I do express my concerns about people being denied entry, I somehow doubt that the majority of legitimate visa holders (or visa exempt entry holders who haven't lived in Thailand on consecutive entries) will experience future problems. I'm also quite sure that Thai immigration has always had the power to deny entry and has used that power before and isn't just starting to do so now.

[nweuro]

Not looking good, is it? Seems like the immigration just refused him entry with nothing more than suspicion and, in doing so, more or less stuffed his life.

If what's been said here is true, he can never see his kid because he can't get into the country to sort the legals.

Shocking that immigration have this kind of power

He can just try again after a while, that was not forbidden.

New passport may help when applying visa in a small consulate. Small consulates dont necessarily have fast connections to main database back in Thailand so they dont see how many stamps one had in old passport. So it is possible to get visa but when entering Thailand there is the same risk of denied entry.

Immigration in many, if not all, other countries have the same power. I was traveling to Europe with small group of asian businesspeople. They had schengen visas. Immigration officer asked couple of questions of their travel plan. Some of them were denied entry because they had changed their travel plan after applying schengen visa.

Some travel insurance dont protect travelers either in these cases.

[easybullet3]

There is a SIMPLE solution to this problem.

since your friend does not know whether he has been BLOCKED by immigration or not...

then,, he can do a few things:

a NAME CHANGE and a NEW PASSPORT being the most obvious.

this means that he can come back to thailand as soon as he has his new passport and he will be a NEW PERSON with a NEW IDENTITY (in thailand).

if he is from the UK,, just google how to do a statutory document for change of name,, (get the document witnessed by a high street solicitor - about 10 pounds)

and then apply for new passport in the new name.

its quick and cheap and simple.

but I DOUBT he was black listed... HE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD SO.

he can also call his embassy (in bangkok) and ask them whether that can find out if he was banned or not. (the embassy probably wont find out for him,, but they should be able to tell him who to call to find out)..

and of course,, he can try calling Immigration directly... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE!!!! its a nightmare to speak to immigration!!! so unorganised.

name change and new passport is the 100% SURE way.

UK is good coz you get a NEW PASSPORT NUMBER.

there are a few countries that give you the SAME PASSPORT NUMBER!!!! so this is NOT GOOD.

you need a new passport number.

if your friend isnt sure, then tell him to call his passport office and ask if new paassports get new passport numbers or not.

or tell him to check his old passports to see if the number changed

[Soutpeel]

There is a SIMPLE solution to this problem.

since your friend does not know whether he has been BLOCKED by immigration or not...

then,, he can do a few things:

a NAME CHANGE and a NEW PASSPORT being the most obvious.

this means that he can come back to thailand as soon as he has his new passport and he will be a NEW PERSON with a NEW IDENTITY (in thailand).

if he is from the UK,, just google how to do a statutory document for change of name,, (get the document witnessed by a high street solicitor - about 10 pounds)

and then apply for new passport in the new name.

its quick and cheap and simple.

but I DOUBT he was black listed... HE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD SO.

he can also call his embassy (in bangkok) and ask them whether that can find out if he was banned or not. (the embassy probably wont find out for him,, but they should be able to tell him who to call to find out)..

and of course,, he can try calling Immigration directly... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE!!!! its a nightmare to speak to immigration!!! so unorganised.

name change and new passport is the 100% SURE way.

UK is good coz you get a NEW PASSPORT NUMBER.

there are a few countries that give you the SAME PASSPORT NUMBER!!!! so this is NOT GOOD.

you need a new passport number.

if your friend isnt sure, then tell him to call his passport office and ask if new paassports get new passport numbers or not.

or tell him to check his old passports to see if the number changed

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/405589-immigration-blacklist/

Read the OP...

Your bleating on about changing someone's name by deed poll....so no t 100% sure...

[easybullet3]

There is a SIMPLE solution to this problem.

since your friend does not know whether he has been BLOCKED by immigration or not...

then,, he can do a few things:

a NAME CHANGE and a NEW PASSPORT being the most obvious.

this means that he can come back to thailand as soon as he has his new passport and he will be a NEW PERSON with a NEW IDENTITY (in thailand).

if he is from the UK,, just google how to do a statutory document for change of name,, (get the document witnessed by a high street solicitor - about 10 pounds)

and then apply for new passport in the new name.

its quick and cheap and simple.

but I DOUBT he was black listed... HE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD SO.

he can also call his embassy (in bangkok) and ask them whether that can find out if he was banned or not. (the embassy probably wont find out for him,, but they should be able to tell him who to call to find out)..

and of course,, he can try calling Immigration directly... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE!!!! its a nightmare to speak to immigration!!! so unorganised.

name change and new passport is the 100% SURE way.

UK is good coz you get a NEW PASSPORT NUMBER.

there are a few countries that give you the SAME PASSPORT NUMBER!!!! so this is NOT GOOD.

you need a new passport number.

if your friend isnt sure, then tell him to call his passport office and ask if new paassports get new passport numbers or not.

or tell him to check his old passports to see if the number changed

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/405589-immigration-blacklist/

Read the OP...

Your bleating on about changing someone's name by deed poll....so no t 100% sure...

yes. exactly. the guy isnt sure if he has been blacklisted or not..

and i ASSUME he wants to return to thailand.

so the SAFEST way to do it is to change his name and new passport.

and NO,, its NOT DEED-POLL... (that is a special legal thing for special circumstances which is rarely done)..

the standard way to change a name in the UK is by a STATUTORY DECLARATION. you copy and paste one from the internet.. (put your old and new names in the gaps) and get a high-street solicitor to witness it for 10 quid.

include it with your new passport application and you have a NEW passport in your NEW name with a NEW Passport number.

but... to save a LOT of time,, it would be worth while the guy sends off his EXISTING Passport to the Thai embassy in his country and apple for a 60 day tourist visa. see if he gets it or not.

as an additional bit of info:

perhaps the Original Post has more than a few Tourist Visas in his passport already.

Immigration has a casual rule that they dont allow people access to thailand who have had MORE than about 5 entries (from tourist visas) in their passports.

ie:

if someone has a tourist Visa with 2 entries... (then this counts as 2)

and they have another Tourist Visa Visa with 1 entry...

plus another one with 2 entries... then they have totals 5 entries in ONE passport.

i have been told from woman that dishes out visas (in Vientiane) that once it goes beyond 5 entries, they usually will RED STAMP your passport and refuse additional visas.

she told me that all you need to do is get a new passport with blank pages and it all starts over again

she said that they dont care how many TOURIST VISA ENTRIES you have clocked-up on their immigration computer. they only care about what is visible in your current passport. (this was at Vientiane Thai Embassy).

anyway,, so maybe the OP had too many tourist visa entries.

if he did then he needs a new passport.

if it is something that he cant fathom out.,,, then the 100% SURE FIX is to do the name change and new passport...

his nationality makes a difference coz some countries are more lengthy procedures to change name.. and some countries keep the SAME NUMBER in the new passport.. (which would defeat the object)

[UbonRatch]

If you have an ED visa and you leave the country - it is CANCELLED, and no longer valid - unless you inform your school, and they notify the authorities and get permission for you to leave.

If he left without telling anybody, then even his ED extension is cancelled. If he had a re-entry permit - that doesn't count anymore, as visa is cancelled.

He should have asked for a 30 day visitor at the airport to get time to sort it out - but by the sounds of it, I'd guess they just took a dislike to him for some reason of theirs.

With respect, you should check your facts before posting.

With respect, maybe I know of other ways that you or others may not. However, they are expensive.

As for ED visa being cancelled if you leave the county, that is factually correct, so I don't believe your friend's ED visa was extended at all, but he simply got an extension of stay, and as Ubonjoe rightly said he had no visa, and therefore couldn't re-enter.

[attento]

He clearly isn't a tourist, so doesn't qualify for visa exempt entry.

Tell him to get a VISA before he comes back and everything should be OK.

yes, get a Visa in a new passport

[gigman]

If you have an ED visa and you leave the country - it is CANCELLED, and no longer valid - unless you inform your school, and they notify the authorities and get permission for you to leave.

If he left without telling anybody, then even his ED extension is cancelled. If he had a re-entry permit - that doesn't count anymore, as visa is cancelled.

He should have asked for a 30 day visitor at the airport to get time to sort it out - but by the sounds of it, I'd guess they just took a dislike to him for some reason of theirs.

Everything I am reading on this site is not clear about this fellow who was denied entry having ED visa.

I am currently on mult entry ED visa and already used this opportunity once to leave Thailand for 4 days to see Vietnam.

After arrival no problem at all, no questions asked at air port.

I do not see a reason why he should be denied entry if he has done everything properly having such kind of visa.

I paid for school being in Pattaya then my application was sent to Thai Education Dep. then after 2 weeks I received all needed letters to go outside Thailand to apply for 1 year visa.

I also choose to pay more for multi entry at Thai embassy in Australia.

I must say that I am attending to school and I am serious to learn Thai language but also must comply with the rules of Thai Education department.

In one month time I must report at visa department to do my every 3 months extension of staying but before that my school is also reporting about me to get proper letter which is essential at

visa department. Other option is to leave Thailand and come back....

I am suspecting that people who abusing this system are creating problem for everyone else in the future who really want to study here and enjoy staying in Thailand.

Just do not believe that honest student can face such harsh decision to be denied entry or his/her visa to be cancelled without the reason.

My personal feeling is that Thai people are doing very easy entry to their country compare to other world countries anyway and those who create problems by abusing this opportunity should have no place on this website to be discussed this kind of problems .

Anyone who is asking for help of other members here on this website should show true and detailed information about incident they experienced and not just "bits and pieces" of full story to build mistrust and confusion to real situation in Thailand .It doesn't help anybody just is wasting space here and our time.

P.S. Why this fellow does not do right thing and try again starting from Thai embassy somewhere outside this country??? Instead he is planning to just sneak in by land....(???) it is fishy for me and not worth discussion.

[gigman]

technically speaking blacklisting is being legally declared persona non grata in a country, usually done by a court.

While being denied entry is simply that we will not let you in

so to me at least not the same thing

I suspected as much since it's not as if they caught him sitting in an office on a phone or something (he actually doesn't work in Thailand). Couldn't be sure though because TIT and since when is proof needed before official decision-making? Suspicion is often enough

He's looking to return but talking about some kind of James Bond-like itinerary. Going to KL or Vientiane and entering through a land border followed by buses and trains because he thinks the immigration peeps at Swampy will remember him and pee on his cornflakes if he comes in that way again.

Ok well thanks for the answers - i'll send the thread url to him

To loose his ED visa ...you must be doing serious offence here in Thailand like for eg. seriously skipping the school or not to attend at all.

If someone thinks that Thai people are naive ....then he/she is doing big mistake.

They have computers here too and a lot of information about us. If someone thinks he can get again to Thailand by land is really asking to be blacklisted 5555.Such attempt can lead to real anger of officers on the border.

He still have a chance to do it properly but my feelings are ...he will get blacklisted stamp in final...

If someone spent so much time in Thailand before he was denied entry ..my question is ..; did he ever learn a little about this country and it's rules being here and to void such problem ???

Sorry , but I can't have any sympathy for such people.

Edited May 29, 2014 by gigman

[ukrules]

He swears blind he's never been here on visa exemption stamps; just tourist visas, a couple of non-immigrant Bs and two ED visas.

He clearly isn't a tourist, so doesn't qualify for visa exempt entry.
Tell him to get a VISA before he comes back and everything should be OK.

Nowhere in the OP does it say he was attempting to enter using the visa exempt system. It specifically says he has NEVER done this.

[ukrules]

Not looking good, is it? Seems like the immigration just refused him entry with nothing more than suspicion and, in doing so, more or less stuffed his life.

If what's been said here is true, he can never see his kid because he can't get into the country to sort the legals.

Shocking that immigration have this kind of power

Do you know whether immigrations actually stamped denied or something to that effect in his passport. If not, seems like he would be okay to give it another try.

When I mentioned this kind of scenario previously someone accused me of spreading rumour, we shall see how this plays out over the coming months.

[ukrules]

To leave and re-enter on the ED visa extensions you just get a re-entry permit.

If you don't get this then the initial visa which will be extended every three months will be invalidated.

Was he simply unaware of this requirement ot forget to get the re-entry permit ?

If he did then denying entrance would seem to me to be a considerable over reaction.

[LivinLOS]

Everyone is missing the Point He was denied because of the amount of stamps he had and they believed he had been working Just get a new passport thats it Problem solved No stamps and you where not black listed just denied

Getting a new passport will not work. Immigration has records of all entries and departures in their database and the ability to do a name and date of birth check.

While they may have records.. The initial flagging seems to be done by a random glance through the passport.. And a visual assessment of 'too many stamps' without any clarity on what actually makes for too many, or what gaps between them reset any clocks.

This denial, of a person on on a legitimate visa, is exactly what some were warning about, and many said simply wouldnt happen.. Its only 30 day visa exempt stamps, its only land borders, its only etc..

I know of someone being told to 'never come back' from an issan immigration for asking for a 30 day extension on a tourist visa.. Again because he had 'too many stamps' and 'you are working here' without any proof, or even asking to see where his source of funds were..

[Mario2008]

The point is that they only have to asses if you are a tourist or not. They do not have to asses if you are working in Thailand or not. Visa exempt entries and tourist visas are for tourism, not for prolonged stay in Thailand. For continous stay in Thailand you need a valid reason and the proper visa.

[LivinLOS]

The point is that they only have to asses if you are a tourist or not. They do not have to asses if you are working in Thailand or not. Visa exempt entries and tourist visas are for tourism, not for prolonged stay in Thailand. For continous stay in Thailand you need a valid reason and the proper visa.

The OP had a ED Visa / Extension.. And was denied entry..

Secondly, many have been saying this wouldnt happen to anyone with a 'valid visa' and keep repeating the mantra, just go and get a tourist visa for a local country.. This clearly appears to not be the solution for some officers interpretations.

Edited May 30, 2014 by LivinLOS

[Tomtomtom69]

The point is that they only have to asses if you are a tourist or not. They do not have to asses if you are working in Thailand or not. Visa exempt entries and tourist visas are for tourism, not for prolonged stay in Thailand. For continous stay in Thailand you need a valid reason and the proper visa.

The OP had a ED Visa / Extension.. And was denied entry..

Secondly, many have been saying this wouldnt happen to anyone with a 'valid visa' and keep repeating the mantra, just go and get a tourist visa for a local country.. This clearly appears to not be the solution for some officers interpretations.

Yet we are still no closer to finding out more about the OP other than what has already been stated, which is not enough to know why he was denied. We could keep going in circles and speculate, but the questions I've posed still haven't been answered. The poster on the top of this page who is on an ED visa is also suspicious.

[nweuro]

In this case I would contact my school and ask them to fax me statement that this person is studying in our school, date, signed by schools personnel, stamped by school stamp, contact number to the school.

I would take a flight arriving weekday day time. Before going to immigration I would call the school and double check everything is ok. If there is questions in immigration I would try to persuade the immigration officer to call the school.

What if thai language skills are not good after having one year ED visa studying thai? That may be problem. He can say that he is drinking too much, well, that may not help either.