Rice scheme probe now more important than ever: Thai opinion

[Dogmatix]

The criminal charge against Yingluck is under Section 157 of the Penal Code - dereliction of duty. Before indicting her the NACC announced they were investigating Former Commerce Minister Boonsong and Former Deputy Commerce Minister Phum plus 13 bureaucrats for corruption to do with the rice scheme. I don't know why they never indicted Boonsong and Phum for impeachment but leapfrogged them to impeach Yingluck first. The case against Yingluck must hinge on proving corruption against the 15. So why hasn't the NACC proceded with the case against them? The evidence to do with falsifying documents to "prove" that rice was exported to China when it wasn't is said to be very clear cut.

[Eric Loh]

OK, right here on this site over the past year or so, in posting newspaper articles at various points in the process, we have read:

That the "revolving fund" at tha BAAC of 500 bil. bt was used up and 200 bil more was needed.

We have been told that the additional 200 bil was added by the BAAC.

We have been told that the BAAC had 200 bil of its own capital, and that it used 150 bil to additionally fund tghe rice scheme.

Now we are at 850 bil, and that's before the latest harvest.

We have been told so may times that government sales such as to China and The Phils were happening but they never did. That is, unless someone other than the bank got paid.

We have been told that a very large amount of rice was smuggled in from Cambodia and sold as Thai rice at the pledging price.

We have been told that a large amount of rice is rotten or missing.

We have been told that the amount the government, using loans from the BAAC paid was about 3x today's market price for good fresh rice.

Now the new government is somehow raising billions more to actually pay the farmers, or so it appears. But this isn't money from the sale of rice.

Rice isn't being sold.

Is it 1+ trillion baht plus what is being paid out now, less the actual value of whatever could be sold? We have been told that if they release the rice stockpiles onto the world market the price of rice will really crash.

Someone has his work cut out for him in spades.

And we are told that Thaksin's visible fortune as reported by Forbes increased a whopping $1.1 billion dollars just last year almost tripling, and Forbes said that Thaksin said the government owed him the money. Why?

No mystery and simple explanation. Toal asset seized by the now defunct Asset Examination Committee was 2.4B USD (76B Baht). AEC confiscated 1.4B (46B) and 1B (30B) remain frozen until court told to release or be sued for holding without any legal reason. There you are the 1.1B dollars plus interest return to Taksin. Not everything you read from fellow posters are true. Get the facts.

[billsmart]

I don't know if corruption can be proved, incompetence has surely been. The PTP government knew that the price they were paying could not be sustained, their answer was to keep offering it and not pay the farmers. Cynical and criminal, truly, corrupt, I don't know.

Of course the money the PTP government was paying the farmers could be maintained - by rice sales and making up the difference from the general fund. The PTP government did not purposely renege on making the most recent rice payments as many on this forum allege. They were trying their best to defend their government from the PAD's relentless attacks and civil disruption. They hoped to settle the dispute by dissolving the government and holding new elections as the PAD demanded. They did dissolve the government and then were unable to requisition the necessary funds to pay the farmers because of an Election Commission ruling.

I'm not arguing there was no corruption or mismanagement, criminal or otherwise. I've been arguing and will continue to argue that the Rice Pledging Scheme was and still is a very good program and beneficial to a great many small-scale rice farmers throughout rural Thailand. I hope the NACC's investigation will be successful and root out the corruption, criminal activities and areas of gross mismanagement so this very important subsidy can be continued in the future.

[Dogmatix]

Ms Yingluck needs to petition the NCPO to be allowed to visit the World Cup in Brazil (similar to what her brother did with the Chinese Olympics) before the shit gets any deeper. How ironic would it be if she was the one in prison for her brother's evil schemes while he is free to travel the world in style. Righ now she is probably cursing him with every other breath. I suspect that lots of former ministers, middlemen, mill owners, and other associates, who illegally benefited from the scheme, will be taking the 'self-exile' option.

I am sure Thaksin still would take care of Poo in Lard Yao Women's Correctional Facility by sending his lawyers to give her boxes of donuts on visiting days.

[Dogmatix]

I don't know if corruption can be proved, incompetence has surely been. The PTP government knew that the price they were paying could not be sustained, their answer was to keep offering it and not pay the farmers. Cynical and criminal, truly, corrupt, I don't know.

Of course the money the PTP government was paying the farmers could be maintained - by rice sales and making up the difference from the general fund. The PTP government did not purposely renege on making the most recent rice payments as many on this forum allege. They were trying their best to defend their government from the PAD's relentless attacks and civil disruption. They hoped to settle the dispute by dissolving the government and holding new elections as the PAD demanded. They did dissolve the government and then were unable to requisition the necessary funds to pay the farmers because of an Election Commission ruling.

I'm not arguing there was no corruption or mismanagement, criminal or otherwise. I've been arguing and will continue to argue that the Rice Pledging Scheme was and still is a very good program and beneficial to a great many small-scale rice farmers throughout rural Thailand. I hope the NACC's investigation will be successful and root out the corruption, criminal activities and areas of gross mismanagement so this very important subsidy can be continued in the future.

But the Yingluck government defaulted on the 2014-15 rice harvest from the beginning by taking the rice in October without arranging for funds to pay for it. Then they compounded the incompetetence by dissolving parliament without making a cabinet resolution first to borrow funds in excess of the budget. If the elections had gone smoothly and they had been re-elected, there would still have been an unacceptable two and a half month gap before they could have formed a new cabinet to make the resolution they failed to make in December.

Both the initial defaults and the failure to act promptly to rectify that before dissolving parliament are utterly indefensible. They should be charged with causing the deaths of the farmers who have committed suicide.

[Valentine]

I don't know if corruption can be proved, incompetence has surely been. The PTP government knew that the price they were paying could not be sustained, their answer was to keep offering it and not pay the farmers. Cynical and criminal, truly, corrupt, I don't know.

Of course the money the PTP government was paying the farmers could be maintained - by rice sales and making up the difference from the general fund. The PTP government did not purposely renege on making the most recent rice payments as many on this forum allege. They were trying their best to defend their government from the PAD's relentless attacks and civil disruption. They hoped to settle the dispute by dissolving the government and holding new elections as the PAD demanded. They did dissolve the government and then were unable to requisition the necessary funds to pay the farmers because of an Election Commission ruling.

I'm not arguing there was no corruption or mismanagement, criminal or otherwise. I've been arguing and will continue to argue that the Rice Pledging Scheme was and still is a very good program and beneficial to a great many small-scale rice farmers throughout rural Thailand. I hope the NACC's investigation will be successful and root out the corruption, criminal activities and areas of gross mismanagement so this very important subsidy can be continued in the future.

If it is such a great scheme how come the farmers with the least amount of land, & thus rice for sale, were unable to participate in the scheme. These are probably the poorest framers as well.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Valentine

[scorecard]

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I would like NACC to prove that the money was missing in transition or placed in the politician's account. Just because the program itself creates a loss, the information is not sufficient to accuse any politician for corruption. Get the book out and do the audit trail. There should be GL to trace where the money is going. The book should tie out to zero of all transactions.

Go go go Khun Supa.

[chainarong]

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Take the time and do a full and thorough enquiry and place blame and guilt exactly.where they should go not just a few sacrificial lambs.

If this goes all the way to the top so be it and it might just set a nice precedent for the future.

I should also add that when the guilty get weighed off for this the punishment should fit the seriousness of the crime and not be the all too familiar Thai ' tap on the wrist ', set another valuable precedent.

I like your comment NKK but I wont hold my breath, as soon as the steam runs out of the coup ,it will be business as usual, call me a non believer, or Thainess

[rametindallas]

failure to respond on phone so had to go to computer.

Edited June 2, 2014 by rametindallas

[rametindallas]

Ms Yingluck needs to petition the NCPO to be allowed to visit the World Cup in Brazil (similar to what her brother did with the Chinese Olympics) before the shit gets any deeper. How ironic would it be if she was the one in prison for her brother's evil schemes while he is free to travel the world in style. Righ now she is probably cursing him with every other breath. I suspect that lots of former ministers, middlemen, mill owners, and other associates, who illegally benefited from the scheme, will be taking the 'self-exile' option.

I am sure Thaksin still would take care of Poo in Lard Yao Women's Correctional Facility by sending his lawyers to give her boxes of donuts on visiting days.

Yes, he's that kind of guy.

[darren84310]

I'm sure they will find the truth, but Thaksin/PTP will spin it as fabricated. Therefore, it's imperative that they invite some people that the Reds will trust to oversee the entire process.

[Tatsujin]

OK, right here on this site over the past year or so, in posting newspaper articles at various points in the process, we have read:

That the "revolving fund" at tha BAAC of 500 bil. bt was used up and 200 bil more was needed.

We have been told that the additional 200 bil was added by the BAAC.

We have been told that the BAAC had 200 bil of its own capital, and that it used 150 bil to additionally fund tghe rice scheme.

Now we are at 850 bil, and that's before the latest harvest.

We have been told so may times that government sales such as to China and The Phils were happening but they never did. That is, unless someone other than the bank got paid.

We have been told that a very large amount of rice was smuggled in from Cambodia and sold as Thai rice at the pledging price.

We have been told that a large amount of rice is rotten or missing.

We have been told that the amount the government, using loans from the BAAC paid was about 3x today's market price for good fresh rice.

Now the new government is somehow raising billions more to actually pay the farmers, or so it appears. But this isn't money from the sale of rice.

Rice isn't being sold.

Is it 1+ trillion baht plus what is being paid out now, less the actual value of whatever could be sold? We have been told that if they release the rice stockpiles onto the world market the price of rice will really crash.

Someone has his work cut out for him in spades.

And we are told that Thaksin's visible fortune as reported by Forbes increased a whopping $1.1 billion dollars just last year almost tripling, and Forbes said that Thaksin said the government owed him the money. Why?

It was a Court decision to return previously seized/confiscated funds that were frozen during the investigation of previous cases of corruption. Supposedly.

Yes. But, does Thai law permit or prohibit, or even comment on, returning funds to a convicted criminal on the run? If so, did the Yingluck administration commit any offence in returning it so hastily?

I don't know the answers but guess not otherwise the Shin's opponents would have been shouting about this.

The Forbes report said the Shin family wealth has increased 450% since Yingy's administration took office. Not a bad increase over the last 3 years, particularly given the economic and financial environment over that period. Wonder why they never managed to bring such wonderful skills and expertise to running Thailand with such equally spectacular results?

It's complicated and hasn't been well publicized:

27/02/2010

Thaksin Shinawatra has 30 days to appeal the sentence handed down yesterday by the Supreme Court, but only if he can provide "new mitigating evidence". Otherwise, the former Thai premier in exile will see confiscated 46 of the 76 billion baht (about 1.7 billion euros) which - according to the judges - are the result of "abuse of power, concealment of assets and public tax evasion" carried out while he held the post of prime minister. The balance the frozen sum - 30 billion baht, the equivalent to 700 million Euros - will be returned to Thaksin because part of personal wealth, before his public inauguration.

As for the 450% increase in wealth, part of that is accounted for by the return of the 30 billion mentioned above. There will be more investigations to follow however I am 100% sure.

[NongKhaiKid]

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Take the time and do a full and thorough enquiry and place blame and guilt exactly.where they should go not just a few sacrificial lambs.

If this goes all the way to the top so be it and it might just set a nice precedent for the future.

I should also add that when the guilty get weighed off for this the punishment should fit the seriousness of the crime and not be the all too familiar Thai ' tap on the wrist ', set another valuable precedent.

I like your comment NKK but I wont hold my breath, as soon as the steam runs out of the coup ,it will be business as usual, call me a non believer, or Thainess

I think you will be proved correct. So many times over the years I have read Op Ed's, commentaries etc all saying that certain classes of people are never investigated or dealt with as they should be because those who could lay it on are mindful that at anytime they could be staring down the barrel of a similar gun and hope that any consideration they have given will be returned.

[kimamey]

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I would like NACC to prove that the money was missing in transition or placed in the politician's account. Just because the program itself creates a loss, the information is not sufficient to accuse any politician for corruption. Get the book out and do the audit trail. There should be GL to trace where the money is going. The book should tie out to zero of all transactions.

So you are arguing that PTP politicians are "NOT" corrupt? Bwhahahahaahahahahaha Tell me another story Grandpa, I like fairy tales!

Let's hope the NACC take a more reasoned approach than you.

[lomatopo]

While Thailand's political crisis has revolved around charges of corruption, the "big fish" have rarely been caught. Charges of "insufficient proof" have often been used by one side, or the camp led by Thaksin Shinawatra to be exact.

Maybe I'm wrong but I am pretty sure Thaksin Shinawatra is one of the few "big"fish" actually convicted in a court of law, circa October 21, 2008.

Over the last 70 years, most other "big fish", of all ilks, have been allowed sneak away with their booty without facing trial, and then return after the statute of limitations has expired.

Edited June 2, 2014 by lomatopo

[Chris Lawrence]

I wasn't aware of this but Abhisit participated in a rice pledging scheme.

ON TUESDAY LAST, many newspapers made a splash that rice exports from Thailand this year had reduced markedly and, under current policy, we may finally lose our position as the biggest rice exporter. In the years 2007 and 2008, we exported 9.56 million tonnes and 10.01 million tonnes respectively. However, for this year up to July 15, a period of six months, normally an export season, we were able to export only 4.72 million tonnes. The Nation 20.06.2009.

It sounds as a rice scheme ( What is the real name of the scheme-pledging-subsidy?) has been around for quite a while?

Abhisit tried to contol the flow of rice which also caused a problem in 2009.

Do you think they will look at the history of such scheme's? or just go after a scalp?

[fab4]

And we are told that Thaksin's visible fortune as reported by Forbes increased a whopping $1.1 billion dollars just last year almost tripling, and Forbes said that Thaksin said the government owed him the money. Why?

I'd be disgusted and yet not surprised if he hadn't offered anyone an explanation of what the money was for.

He can simply take $1.1 billion from the government without any explanation?

And some would say that the Constitution is just fine as it is.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I'd be disgusted and yet not surprised if he hadn't offered anyone an explanation of what the money was for.

He can simply take $1.1 billion from the government without any explanation?

BS. First of all it wasn't last year - rabas is referring to an interview between Forbes and Thaksin which happened on the 30th October 2012 and he refers to the $1 billion as money he has already got back i.e before October 2012, in reality after the Supreme Court case ruling in 2010, not "just last year" as rabas (and others) would have us believe

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timferguson/2012/10/30/qa-thaksin-sits-down-with-forbes/

Why not find out the truth of what happened instead of regurgitating old myths that you "learned" on here

On June 11th 2007 the AEC froze the accounts of Thaksin and his family.

On February 26th 2010 the Supreme Court ruled on $2.3 Billion (76 Billion Baht) of Thaksins frozen assets. They concluded that 46 Billion Baht of assets were illegally concealed and confiscated them. The remaining 30 Billion Baht was returned to Thaksin as they were assets accrued before he became Prime Minister. Simple.

Nothing at all about simply taking money from the government without explanation.

On Friday February 26th, the country's Supreme Court ruled on 76 billion baht ($2.3 billion) in frozen accounts that belong to Mr Thaksin and his family. At least 46 billion baht now belongs to the state, with the rest to be returned to the ex-leader.

Mr Thaksin, who lives in exile in Dubai, argues that he was rich before he went into politics. The judges seem to agree, as the unfrozen 30 billion baht represents his family's assets before he became prime minister in 2001.

http://www.economist.com/node/15584792

[Valentine]

I wasn't aware of this but Abhisit participated in a rice pledging scheme.

ON TUESDAY LAST, many newspapers made a splash that rice exports from Thailand this year had reduced markedly and, under current policy, we may finally lose our position as the biggest rice exporter. In the years 2007 and 2008, we exported 9.56 million tonnes and 10.01 million tonnes respectively. However, for this year up to July 15, a period of six months, normally an export season, we were able to export only 4.72 million tonnes. The Nation 20.06.2009.

It sounds as a rice scheme ( What is the real name of the scheme-pledging-subsidy?) has been around for quite a while?

Abhisit tried to contol the flow of rice which also caused a problem in 2009.

Do you think they will look at the history of such scheme's? or just go after a scalp?

The Democrat scheme was nothing like the PTP one in that never had any intention to corner the world market by stockpiling. In fact there were reports of many farmers actually stating the scheme was better than PTP's.

[kimamey]

I don't know if corruption can be proved, incompetence has surely been. The PTP government knew that the price they were paying could not be sustained, their answer was to keep offering it and not pay the farmers. Cynical and criminal, truly, corrupt, I don't know.

Of course the money the PTP government was paying the farmers could be maintained - by rice sales and making up the difference from the general fund. The PTP government did not purposely renege on making the most recent rice payments as many on this forum allege. They were trying their best to defend their government from the PAD's relentless attacks and civil disruption. They hoped to settle the dispute by dissolving the government and holding new elections as the PAD demanded. They did dissolve the government and then were unable to requisition the necessary funds to pay the farmers because of an Election Commission ruling.

I'm not arguing there was no corruption or mismanagement, criminal or otherwise. I've been arguing and will continue to argue that the Rice Pledging Scheme was and still is a very good program and beneficial to a great many small-scale rice farmers throughout rural Thailand. I hope the NACC's investigation will be successful and root out the corruption, criminal activities and areas of gross mismanagement so this very important subsidy can be continued in the future.

There's nothing wrong with a scheme to help rice farmers as you say but when you look at this one you have to ask why was the price so high? Was it to get votes? There was obviously going to be a loss unless the world price suddenly went up but that in itself isn't a problem. From what I remember it wasn't the farmers who got most of the benefit anyway and the very poor ones got nothing.

It doesn't help when you get people like this in charge.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/677428-rungson-vows-to-review-rice-scheme-loss/

If someone really gets their figures this far out you remove them, you don't get them to work for you. Unless of course you're worried about action from the senate for harassment, which they had threatened.

According to Rungson Sriworasat he was 'someone with a background in accounting and a director of the Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives for eight years'. Strange that he doesn't seem to know about storage though. My guess is that the rice pledging scheme was about a lot more than helping farmers.

Although this article isn't the whole story it makes interesting reading as it shows that this isn't about either helping farmers or not but about how that's done. Remember the Dems already had a price guarantee policy.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-industry-backs-income-guarantee-plan-of-Democ-30158034.html

Others have dealt with the payment problems and the reasons for that. All I would say is maybe the Democrats could have helped with finding a way round blocking of payments. Of course they may have tried and been unsuccessful.

Let's hope more truth is forthcoming on a lot of issues.

[Robby nz]

There was a committee set up by the ministry of finance to look into and audit the rice pledging scheme

When that committee reported its findings through its chair to the PT Govt they immediately rejected the committees findings and sacked the chairperson.

This to me would not seem to be the action of an honest administration but one in denial with something to hide.

An honest reaction should have been something like : We didn't realize the problem was so big and we must do everything in our power to find out why there is such a massive loss and if indeed as the committee suggests rice is missing from the inventory.

To the best of my knowledge the full report of that committee has never been released.

However now the former chair of that finance committee is part of the NACC, so that means the NACC will have the access to the full report either in document form or as knowledge from one of its members.

This will be a valuable addition to the evidence the NACC has been gathering from way back to the time of the first no confidence debate when the Dems took the evidence they had gathered to the NACC.

Unless it can be conclusively proved that Yingluck knowingly personally benefited from corruption it would seem hardly worth chasing her for she has already been shown to be negligent, that should be enough for there is little doubt that she is a victim of her brothers greed and power lust.

That of course does not apply to all those under her.

[fab4]

I would like NACC to prove that the money was missing in transition or placed in the politician's account. Just because the program itself creates a loss, the information is not sufficient to accuse any politician for corruption. Get the book out and do the audit trail. There should be GL to trace where the money is going. The book should tie out to zero of all transactions.

Corruption isn't always about money changing hands. It's also deals like Thaksin's ex-wife got in that land deal. Or influential people being told of big projects before public announcement so they can buy up land nearby (i.e. rail lines). Jobs being given for political considerations (chief of police). Etc.

You mean the deal where Thaksins ex wife bid the highest in a sealed bid auction with a bid of 772 Million baht. (18th December 2003)

Where the Civil Court ruled that the sale be invalidated (24th September 2010) and resulted in Pojaman being told to hand the deeds of the land back and was compensated with the full purchase price plus interest which added up to 823 million baht.

Where the FIDF subsequently auctioned that land "again" on the 17th August 2011 for 1,815 million baht, a "profit" of 992 million baht.

You mean that kind of corruption?

Edited June 2, 2014 by fab4

[lvr181]

I don't know if corruption can be proved, incompetence has surely been. The PTP government knew that the price they were paying could not be sustained, their answer was to keep offering it and not pay the farmers. Cynical and criminal, truly, corrupt, I don't know.

One way to hang onto power while "ripping off" the voters.

That is hijacked democracy for you.

[fab4]

The criminal charge against Yingluck is under Section 157 of the Penal Code - dereliction of duty. Before indicting her the NACC announced they were investigating Former Commerce Minister Boonsong and Former Deputy Commerce Minister Phum plus 13 bureaucrats for corruption to do with the rice scheme. I don't know why they never indicted Boonsong and Phum for impeachment but leapfrogged them to impeach Yingluck first. The case against Yingluck must hinge on proving corruption against the 15. So why hasn't the NACC proceded with the case against them? The evidence to do with falsifying documents to "prove" that rice was exported to China when it wasn't is said to be very clear cut.

I don't know why they never indicted Boonsong and Phum for impeachment but leapfrogged them to impeach Yingluck first.

You don't know why? You are joking, right?

[fab4]

Of course the money the PTP government was paying the farmers could be maintained - by rice sales and making up the difference from the general fund. The PTP government did not purposely renege on making the most recent rice payments as many on this forum allege. They were trying their best to defend their government from the PAD's relentless attacks and civil disruption. They hoped to settle the dispute by dissolving the government and holding new elections as the PAD demanded. They did dissolve the government and then were unable to requisition the necessary funds to pay the farmers because of an Election Commission ruling.

I'm not arguing there was no corruption or mismanagement, criminal or otherwise. I've been arguing and will continue to argue that the Rice Pledging Scheme was and still is a very good program and beneficial to a great many small-scale rice farmers throughout rural Thailand. I hope the NACC's investigation will be successful and root out the corruption, criminal activities and areas of gross mismanagement so this very important subsidy can be continued in the future.

If it is such a great scheme how come the farmers with the least amount of land, & thus rice for sale, were unable to participate in the scheme. These are probably the poorest framers as well.

A patently untrue statement. It had nothing to do with how much land the rice farmers had.

Any Thai farmer who acquired a certification letter from the Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives and who was also a client of the Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives was eligible to participate in the scheme. (Id.) The Rice Trading Act 1946 is the overarching legislation that governs rice trading in Thailand. (Rice Trading Act 1946 [in English]

http://www.loc.gov/lawweb/servlet/lloc_news?disp3_l205403656_text

[rabas]

And we are told that Thaksin's visible fortune as reported by Forbes increased a whopping $1.1 billion dollars just last year almost tripling, and Forbes said that Thaksin said the government owed him the money. Why?

I'd be disgusted and yet not surprised if he hadn't offered anyone an explanation of what the money was for.

He can simply take $1.1 billion from the government without any explanation?

And some would say that the Constitution is just fine as it is.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I'd be disgusted and yet not surprised if he hadn't offered anyone an explanation of what the money was for.

He can simply take $1.1 billion from the government without any explanation?

BS. First of all it wasn't last year - rabas is referring to an interview between Forbes and Thaksin which happened on the 30th October 2012 and he refers to the $1 billion as money he has already got back i.e before October 2012, in reality after the Supreme Court case ruling in 2010, not "just last year" as rabas (and others) would have us believe

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timferguson/2012/10/30/qa-thaksin-sits-down-with-forbes/

Why not find out the truth of what happened instead of regurgitating old myths that you "learned" on here

On June 11th 2007 the AEC froze the accounts of Thaksin and his family.

On February 26th 2010 the Supreme Court ruled on $2.3 Billion (76 Billion Baht) of Thaksins frozen assets. They concluded that 46 Billion Baht of assets were illegally concealed and confiscated them. The remaining 30 Billion Baht was returned to Thaksin as they were assets accrued before he became Prime Minister. Simple.

Nothing at all about simply taking money from the government without explanation.

On Friday February 26th, the country's Supreme Court ruled on 76 billion baht ($2.3 billion) in frozen accounts that belong to Mr Thaksin and his family. At least 46 billion baht now belongs to the state, with the rest to be returned to the ex-leader.

Mr Thaksin, who lives in exile in Dubai, argues that he was rich before he went into politics. The judges seem to agree, as the unfrozen 30 billion baht represents his family's assets before he became prime minister in 2001.

http://www.economist.com/node/15584792

BS. First of all it wasn't last year - rabas is referring to an interview between Forbes and Thaksin which happened on the 30th October 2012 and he refers to the $1 billion as money he has already got back i.e before October 2012, in reality after the Supreme Court case ruling in 2010, not "just last year" as rabas (and others) would have us believe

No fab. I am referring to Thaksin's page on Forbes, and the little chart on the right that first shows the presence of the money in March 3013, thus my words. It was not there as of August 2012, It does not show what date the money was transferred.

[fab4]

There's nothing wrong with a scheme to help rice farmers as you say but when you look at this one you have to ask why was the price so high? Was it to get votes? There was obviously going to be a loss unless the world price suddenly went up but that in itself isn't a problem. From what I remember it wasn't the farmers who got most of the benefit anyway and the very poor ones got nothing.

It doesn't help when you get people like this in charge.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/677428-rungson-vows-to-review-rice-scheme-loss/

If someone really gets their figures this far out you remove them, you don't get them to work for you. Unless of course you're worried about action from the senate for harassment, which they had threatened.

According to Rungson Sriworasat he was 'someone with a background in accounting and a director of the Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives for eight years'. Strange that he doesn't seem to know about storage though. My guess is that the rice pledging scheme was about a lot more than helping farmers.

Although this article isn't the whole story it makes interesting reading as it shows that this isn't about either helping farmers or not but about how that's done. Remember the Dems already had a price guarantee policy.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-industry-backs-income-guarantee-plan-of-Democ-30158034.html

Others have dealt with the payment problems and the reasons for that. All I would say is maybe the Democrats could have helped with finding a way round blocking of payments. Of course they may have tried and been unsuccessful.

Let's hope more truth is forthcoming on a lot of issues.

The PTP hadn't reckoned on India stopping its 4 to 5 year ban on rice exports, thus having a severe effect on the worldwide price of rice. Notwithstanding that, the rice millers were quick to exploit the PTP's promise to restore the rice subsidy:

By PETCHANET PRATRUANGKRAI

THE NATION

Published on July 5, 2011

As a quick response to the Pheu Thai Party's promise to restore the rice-price pledging scheme, domestic rice trading has ground to a halt, as millers are keeping their supplies off the market on speculation that prices will shoot up.

Chookiat Ophaswongse, honourable president of the Thai Rice Exporters Association, said the suspension of sales by rice millers had also created problems for exporters, which cannot quote prices and must also stop selling rice.

"If the pledging scheme is resumed, it will mark up export prices of white rice from the present US$550 to more than $850 a tonne. Exporters can't calculate the real cost of rice, as they don't know when it will be restarted," he said.

If the pledging scheme starts soon, millers will not sell rice to exporters because they can get a higher return from the higher pledged price by selling directly to the government under the programme.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2011/07/05/business/Rice-trade-halts-ahead-of-pledging-scheme-30159478.html

[GoodThaiGirl]

I don't know if corruption can be proved, incompetence has surely been. The PTP government knew that the price they were paying could not be sustained, their answer was to keep offering it and not pay the farmers. Cynical and criminal, truly, corrupt, I don't know.

Of course the money the PTP government was paying the farmers could be maintained - by rice sales and making up the difference from the general fund. The PTP government did not purposely renege on making the most recent rice payments as many on this forum allege. They were trying their best to defend their government from the PAD's relentless attacks and civil disruption. They hoped to settle the dispute by dissolving the government and holding new elections as the PAD demanded. They did dissolve the government and then were unable to requisition the necessary funds to pay the farmers because of an Election Commission ruling.

I'm not arguing there was no corruption or mismanagement, criminal or otherwise. I've been arguing and will continue to argue that the Rice Pledging Scheme was and still is a very good program and beneficial to a great many small-scale rice farmers throughout rural Thailand. I hope the NACC's investigation will be successful and root out the corruption, criminal activities and areas of gross mismanagement so this very important subsidy can be continued in the future.

let me ask you again why did they not pay the farmers before they dissolved parliament it was due in late august...dont be silent answer this question please..

[Thai at Heart]

I don't know if corruption can be proved, incompetence has surely been. The PTP government knew that the price they were paying could not be sustained, their answer was to keep offering it and not pay the farmers. Cynical and criminal, truly, corrupt, I don't know.

Of course the money the PTP government was paying the farmers could be maintained - by rice sales and making up the difference from the general fund. The PTP government did not purposely renege on making the most recent rice payments as many on this forum allege. They were trying their best to defend their government from the PAD's relentless attacks and civil disruption. They hoped to settle the dispute by dissolving the government and holding new elections as the PAD demanded. They did dissolve the government and then were unable to requisition the necessary funds to pay the farmers because of an Election Commission ruling.

I'm not arguing there was no corruption or mismanagement, criminal or otherwise. I've been arguing and will continue to argue that the Rice Pledging Scheme was and still is a very good program and beneficial to a great many small-scale rice farmers throughout rural Thailand. I hope the NACC's investigation will be successful and root out the corruption, criminal activities and areas of gross mismanagement so this very important subsidy can be continued in the future.

let me ask you again why did they not pay the farmers before they dissolved parliament it was due in late august...dont be silent answer this question please..

Because all the cash was tied up in the stock.

A.classic cash flow problem of trading firms.

[fab4]

BS. First of all it wasn't last year - rabas is referring to an interview between Forbes and Thaksin which happened on the 30th October 2012 and he refers to the $1 billion as money he has already got back i.e before October 2012, in reality after the Supreme Court case ruling in 2010, not "just last year" as rabas (and others) would have us believe

No fab. I am referring to Thaksin's page on Forbes, and the little chart on the right that first shows the presence of the money in March 3013, thus my words. It was not there as of August 2012, It does not show what date the money was transferred.

I have since found this link, for what it's worth. Here they state that he got the money back in March 2013. In July 2013 Forbes estimate his wealth as $1.7 Billion.

I don't know, and cannot find a reference to, how long it took from the ruling in 2010 to Thaksin actually getting his hands on the money. This article suggests March 2013:

Thaksin Shinawatra net worth: Thaksin Shinawatra is a Thai business tycoon turned politician who has a net worth of $1.6 billion. Thaksin Shinawatra first started making his fortune after founding Advanced Info Service, Thailand's most successful mobile phone operator in 1986. However, he devoted himself to politics as he founded the populist Thai Rak Thai (TRT) in 1998, and three years later became Prime Minister of Thailand. In 2006 he was overthrown in a military coup and ever since has found life difficult living in self-imposed exile in Dubai. As of March 2013, he re-entered the world's richest after he got close to $1 billion back from the $2.3 billion of his assets frozen by the Thai authorities.

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-businessmen/richest-billionaires/thaksin-shinawatra-net-worth/

At the end of the day there is not any mystery as to why he received $1 Billion from the Thai government despite the ardent protestations and wetdreams of the anti's on here. It wasn't money embezzeled from the Rice Subsidy Scheme. It wasn't money pilfered from the treasury.

It was his money, unlawfully frozen by the AEC, legitimately returned by the government in accordance with the ruling of the Supreme Court.

Nothing to see here, move along, please.

Edited June 2, 2014 by fab4

[lovetotravel]

I would like NACC to prove that the money was missing in transition or placed in the politician's account. Just because the program itself creates a loss, the information is not sufficient to accuse any politician for corruption. Get the book out and do the audit trail. There should be GL to trace where the money is going. The book should tie out to zero of all transactions.

Corruption isn't always about money changing hands. It's also deals like Thaksin's ex-wife got in that land deal. Or influential people being told of big projects before public announcement so they can buy up land nearby (i.e. rail lines). Jobs being given for political considerations (chief of police). Etc.

You mean the deal where Thaksins ex wife bid the highest in a sealed bid auction with a bid of 772 Million baht. (18th December 2003)

Where the Civil Court ruled that the sale be invalidated (24th September 2010) and resulted in Pojaman being told to hand the deeds of the land back and was compensated with the full purchase price plus interest which added up to 823 million baht.

Where the FIDF subsequently auctioned that land "again" on the 17th August 2011 for 1,815 million baht, a "profit" of 992 million baht.

You mean that kind of corruption?

Not at all. The value of the land to Pojaman was way below market value. That's corruption. And the officials who allowed her to do so might not have been paid money, but perhaps got other incentives. Promotion, hiring of relative somewhere else, etc. That's corruption.

The government sold the land at a transparent auction, getting the full value that they deserved...at least I hope it was transparent!