Famous Baan Pa Ngam Mountain Lodge to be demolished after losing all court cases

[binjalin]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

because it shouldn't be there? once you do that you are saying it's ok to build on National Park and have 10 years of making profit's then we'll just confiscate it

[wandasloan]

That's why they're already doing a helluva lot more and a helluva lot better in a matter of weeks than PTP did in 3 destructive, inept, years of extortion.

Wow, one so-called fiasco. Now, for PTP, we could write 100 volumes.

So you claim that the Supreme Court is under the direct control and orders of the National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) and its commander Gen Prayuth.

Hmmmm. I thought I was cynical. Very humbling to think how far I have to go to reach the top.

Of course, the horrible part is you may actually be correct. Wouldn't THAT be something if you are?

.

[MMarlow]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

How about because it's illegal and built in a National Park?

[Phuket Stan]

[

Never mind your lucid reasoning. Anti-Thaksinistas and gong-ho Suthepistas will rather lambast a criminal like Thaksin and glorify a crooked Sontam republic politico such as Suthep who has a proven checkered past of malfeasance, nepotism and corruption.

Such is the nature of emotional, puerile fanaticism.

Oh dear....u r having a tough day/week/month

[shaurene]

Such a shame to destroy it, why does the Government not take it over and pay a fair price and do some special things with it. Like a special animal park let orphanages have hollidays for the children and needy children and children with illnesses who are going to die.

Cancel this stupid school tablet thing and use the money for this.

[shaurene]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

How about because it's illegal and built in a National Park?

Confiscate it, not destroy it.

[tw25rw]

One one hand it's ilegally built etc, on the other it could raise revenue of use to maintain the park. I would keep it, maybe modifying it into some kind of ecolodge and restore most of the grounds to nature.

[Fat Haggis]

By destroying it, it also destroys those who work(ed) there's livelihood, fully understandable that it's illegally built on National Park land, but tearing it down is also perhaps a knee jerk reaction.

[Emptyset]

"The park chief said the department has filed more than 400 cases against owners of properties encroached and built inside national parks during the past three years."

The past three years were a wild wild west in many ways. Things are changing for the better now.

They've filed 400 cases in the last three years, you interpret that as a sign of the failings of PT's regime, but you have no idea whether filing this many cases is out of the ordinary. Or do you? Can you tell us how many cases they've filed in the last six years? Just so we can get a sense of whether the number given for the last three years is out of the ordinary. Also, for all we know, they might've actually filed more cases in the last three years as they were able to do their jobs properly where they were being blocked before. I don't think this is likely, but we can't know for sure by just looking at the figures alone.

Anyway, if the past is anything to go by, it suggests we've no reason to think military leaders would be any better than politicians on this score. Recall the Surayud fiasco.

..."you interpret that as a sign of the failings of PT's regime"...

Where did I "interpret" that? Please don't be paranoid.

Hilarious. Still apologising for the government even after it's dead and buried.

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I don't know whether this story has so much to do with the new government or the old one,

but clearly Eric Berg was suggesting that the last three years were an exception to the norm as far as illegal land encroachment goes and I was wondering what he was basing that on other than his own assumptions. It might've been that Eric Berg was aware of the figures and knew for a fact PT had been worse in this area than previous govts. As it turned out, he didn't offer any figures and, in any case, denied his first post was a criticism of the previous govt.

Anyway, don't see where the "apology" for the last govt is in my post. But at the moment the standard response to people still asking questions rather than simply acting as cheerleaders for the new order seems to be to smear them as red shirt apologists for the previous govt. So it goes...

[Emptyset]

"The park chief said the department has filed more than 400 cases against owners of properties encroached and built inside national parks during the past three years."

The past three years were a wild wild west in many ways. Things are changing for the better now.

They've filed 400 cases in the last three years, you interpret that as a sign of the failings of PT's regime, but you have no idea whether filing this many cases is out of the ordinary. Or do you? Can you tell us how many cases they've filed in the last six years? Just so we can get a sense of whether the number given for the last three years is out of the ordinary. Also, for all we know, they might've actually filed more cases in the last three years as they were able to do their jobs properly where they were being blocked before. I don't think this is likely, but we can't know for sure by just looking at the figures alone.

Anyway, if the past is anything to go by, it suggests we've no reason to think military leaders would be any better than politicians on this score. Recall the Surayud fiasco.

Alpine Golf Resort and Estate, rings a bell, the Shin family, no?

If I remember correctly Sanoh appropriated the resort under the Chatchai govt of the late 80s. He sold it to Thaksin several years later. But despite the fact TS was involved at a later stage, I can't see how a case that originated in a govt of the late 80s can be pinned on the last govt... (if that's what you're trying to suggest).

[AGareth2]

it was a fantastic place for a beer at sunset

[GentlemanJim]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

alt=blink.png>

As one politician here once said when they were suing another relentlessly, "You have no idea how bad we are in this country".

Thai's really hate seeing people become successful, they love seeing people suffer. People will kind of smile and say well done if you win 10 million on the lottery, but they will positively love it if they hear you lost it playing cards or in a bad investment. Confiscating the property is not enough for the men in power, who want to show everyone how tough and powerful they are.............they want to destroy it. Destroying it will not be done in a structured way either. They will not return the land to natural forest. They will just send the bulldozers in, knock it down and it will be left an unusable eyesore in the middle of the National Park for ever.

Imagine what a healing retreat this would make for the mentally ill or for the wealthy elderly looking for a retirement home that would give awesome guaranteed income for the National Parks to do the conservation work they have. Destroying it does not send a message saying 'you cannot do this'. This lodge took many years to build and it was not built without the co-operation and complicity of local National Park officials, it would be impossible to consider otherwise.

Taking a bad tooth out without clearing the infection at the root just lets the infection spread to the next tooth! This lodge is just a reminder (and a beautiful one) of the endemic corruption at the root of Thai local and national Government. They should now use it for the benefit of the people, and put systems in place to stop it happening again. My two cents worth.

[pisico]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

You want to destroy Thainess?

What you suggest would make sense if it was not encroachment of a land reserved to be a national park.

Demolishing it sends a message to Thais. crime and punishment. Accountability and retribution when laws are broken.

All these tenets of true justice are alien to the Thai Psyche.

Thainess is about quid pro quo, backroom dealings, saving face and removing officials to inactive posts.

[pisico]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

alt=blink.png>

As one politician here once said when they were suing another relentlessly, "You have no idea how bad we are in this country".

Thai's really hate seeing people become successful, they love seeing people suffer. People will kind of smile and say well done if you win 10 million on the lottery, but they will positively love it if they hear you lost it playing cards or in a bad investment. Confiscating the property is not enough for the men in power, who want to show everyone how tough and powerful they are.............they want to destroy it. Destroying it will not be done in a structured way either. They will not return the land to natural forest. They will just send the bulldozers in, knock it down and it will be left an unusable eyesore in the middle of the National Park for ever.

Imagine what a healing retreat this would make for the mentally ill or for the wealthy elderly looking for a retirement home that would give awesome guaranteed income for the National Parks to do the conservation work they have. Destroying it does not send a message saying 'you cannot do this'. This lodge took many years to build and it was not built without the co-operation and complicity of local National Park officials, it would be impossible to consider otherwise.

Taking a bad tooth out without clearing the infection at the root just lets the infection spread to the next tooth! This lodge is just a reminder (and a beautiful one) of the endemic corruption at the root of Thai local and national Government. They should now use it for the benefit of the people, and put systems in place to stop it happening again. My two cents worth.

Could not agree more.

Your lucid statement is not something that can ever come from a Thai in power.

Farangs tend to glorify this Sontam republic. Unique culture, a superficially modern appearance (thanks to foreign investment and know-how) and a feudal mentality.

But the truth is that when it comes to their culture, nothing else matters to Thais. Their way is the one and only way.

I am still waiting from the Thai apologists to post a list of Thais who are Nobel prize recipients, in any discipline.

A list of Thai inventors and the inventions that contributed to make of this a better world.

By they way: Thai food is not an invention

[GreasyFingers]

Many National Parks in Australia have private enterprise resorts within their boundaries. No need to take them over as Parks people are not in the tourist business but can be landlords. Just charge them a rent that reflects the profits they make because it will never be natural (pristine??) again. But I do understand it would set a precedent but that would not be unusual in Thailand

[pisico]

"The park chief said the department has filed more than 400 cases against owners of properties encroached and built inside national parks during the past three years."

The past three years were a wild wild west in many ways. Things are changing for the better now.

They've filed 400 cases in the last three years, you interpret that as a sign of the failings of PT's regime, but you have no idea whether filing this many cases is out of the ordinary. Or do you? Can you tell us how many cases they've filed in the last six years? Just so we can get a sense of whether the number given for the last three years is out of the ordinary. Also, for all we know, they might've actually filed more cases in the last three years as they were able to do their jobs properly where they were being blocked before. I don't think this is likely, but we can't know for sure by just looking at the figures alone.

Anyway, if the past is anything to go by, it suggests we've no reason to think military leaders would be any better than politicians on this score. Recall the Surayud fiasco.

Alpine Golf Resort and Estate, rings a bell, the Shin family, no?

If I remember correctly Sanoh appropriated the resort under the Chatchai govt of the late 80s. He sold it to Thaksin several years later. But despite the fact TS was involved at a later stage, I can't see how a case that originated in a govt of the late 80s can be pinned on the last govt... (if that's what you're trying to suggest).

It does not matter to rabid Suthepistas and anti-Thaksinistas. Logic and data are not their forte..

[binjalin]

Such a shame to destroy it, why does the Government not take it over and pay a fair price and do some special things with it. Like a special animal park let orphanages have hollidays for the children and needy children and children with illnesses who are going to die.

Cancel this stupid school tablet thing and use the money for this.

'pay a fair price'? to WHO? built illegally on the nation's land?

[ratcatcher]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

alt=blink.png>

As one politician here once said when they were suing another relentlessly, "You have no idea how bad we are in this country".

Thai's really hate seeing people become successful, they love seeing people suffer. People will kind of smile and say well done if you win 10 million on the lottery, but they will positively love it if they hear you lost it playing cards or in a bad investment. Confiscating the property is not enough for the men in power, who want to show everyone how tough and powerful they are.............they want to destroy it. Destroying it will not be done in a structured way either. They will not return the land to natural forest. They will just send the bulldozers in, knock it down and it will be left an unusable eyesore in the middle of the National Park for ever.

Imagine what a healing retreat this would make for the mentally ill or for the wealthy elderly looking for a retirement home that would give awesome guaranteed income for the National Parks to do the conservation work they have. Destroying it does not send a message saying 'you cannot do this'. This lodge took many years to build and it was not built without the co-operation and complicity of local National Park officials, it would be impossible to consider otherwise.

Taking a bad tooth out without clearing the infection at the root just lets the infection spread to the next tooth! This lodge is just a reminder (and a beautiful one) of the endemic corruption at the root of Thai local and national Government. They should now use it for the benefit of the people, and put systems in place to stop it happening again. My two cents worth.

" My two cents worth."

Actually GJ your post is worth a hell of a lot more than two cents. It makes a whole lot of sense..

As you and others have pointed out, much use could be made of this place, and no, I have never seen it, but anything that cost 100 million baht must be quite impressive. What the new leaders should do is what you suggested and turn the place over to a structured reliable management system with totally transparent accounting and responsibility to be used in an appropriate manner.

Some of the ideas put forth by other members are very worthy.

I hope they do the right thing. Let other potential scofflaws know anything they do inside a park will be confiscated.

"

[Fat Haggis]

If they (the authorities) can seize the assets of those who have profited through "criminal" activity then what's to stop them from doing so here?

What about all those people who have used those facilities over the years, knowing it was built on National Parkland would they be classed as "guilty by association" ? Are they not equally as guilty as those who profited from it's concept to construction?

Destroying a 100M baht property just to "prove a point" is bizarre and a tad insane, turn it into the National Park Headquarters or something, it seems more like another case of "not wanting to lose face", and yeah the ones who have had similar properties destroyed would be none too please, and what about the actual environmental impact on the area when it comes to destroying it? there's going to be a lot of heavy machinery involved as well as Heavy Goods vehicular traffic as well? However, that all being said, nothing the Thais do surprises me.

[onflipflops]

13 years and finally a sucess for the people of Thailand to retain this part of their national park........

Justice is slow, but, in some cases completely worthwhile.

The park beat the cheating big money owners.....

Do you think that the demolition is going to return that location back to it's natural beauty over night? It will take years, if not decades for that to happen, and not only that, it's going to take lots and lots and lots of Baht!!

But if it's being demolished and it's worth 100 Million Baht, isn't this a case of cutting of ones nose to spite their face? Surely it's better to keep it and turn over to the Park Authorities and let THEM receive all the possible income as a Private Enterprise??

With tent sites at 1000 baht a night and accommodation ranging from 1300 baht a night to 3000 baht, not a bad little earner either. Personally I think the landscaping is horrendous - looks like Sound of Music on mescaline territory to me

It should be demolished, and I hope the plan of the DNP is to heal the scar created by mankind and connect Khao Yai national park with Thab Lan national park to open migration routes for especially the larger mammals like the elephant and Gaur population in both parks to increase the gene pool, and hopefully it will bring the tiger back into Khao Yai national park.

There is no need to reforest it, costs too much, let nature do its job. Secondary growth is what the large browsers like elephants and gaur like, so the only neccessary thing to do is to get all the invasive plant species out. Seems like the gardens are full of plants that don't belong there.

Remove the buildings, and then don't touch it anymore. Within a year it will look like a wilderness. It does not need to look like a primary forest with a decade.

However, most money is needed to turn at least a few stretches of several kms of the 304 road into either an elevated highway, or a tunnel. If this isn't done, the whole thing of demolishing the resorts is pretty useless.

It will probably cost only a fraction of the huge budgets that were planned for the infrastructure projects throughout the country. Spend the planned money for building a dam in Mae Wong national park on this national park-connection project and you will save the tigers in Mae Wong, and create a true forest complex of the now still fragmented Dong Phaya Yen-Khao Yai forest complex.

Enough dreaming...

[Mitker]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

It's like ivory seized from poachers. The idea is to get rid of anything of illegal source even if it could have turned a source of funding for something else.

The very idea of example. In this perspective it makes sense.

[Benmart]

"The park chief said the department has filed more than 400 cases against owners of properties encroached and built inside national parks during the past three years."

The past three years were a wild wild west in many ways. Things are changing for the better now.

They've filed 400 cases in the last three years, you interpret that as a sign of the failings of PT's regime, but you have no idea whether filing this many cases is out of the ordinary. Or do you? Can you tell us how many cases they've filed in the last six years? Just so we can get a sense of whether the number given for the last three years is out of the ordinary. Also, for all we know, they might've actually filed more cases in the last three years as they were able to do their jobs properly where they were being blocked before. I don't think this is likely, but we can't know for sure by just looking at the figures alone.

Anyway, if the past is anything to go by, it suggests we've no reason to think military leaders would be any better than politicians on this score. Recall the Surayud fiasco.

Lots of use of the word "you". I've found that the less I use it in rebuttals, the less it appears as a personal attack.

I prefer to attack and dismantle the position of the post and not the poster.

[Pompey50]

"The park chief said the department has filed more than 400 cases against owners of properties encroached and built inside national parks during the past three years."

The past three years were a wild wild west in many ways. Things are changing for the better now.

Don't forget most of these properties have been there for years. Real enforcement has begun over the last 3 years.. Many of these properties are owned by senior military and police officers and most by the elite out of BKK.

Not may PTP supporters can afford to build such places.

There have been a number of story's on this issue over the last few years.

[fasteddie]

Prayuth thinks. Prayuth does.

No inactive posts on his watch.

Uh? what's it got to do with him?

[casualbiker]

"The park chief said the department has filed more than 400 cases against owners of properties encroached and built inside national parks during the past three years."

The past three years were a wild wild west in many ways. Things are changing for the better now.

Don't forget most of these properties have been there for years. Real enforcement has begun over the last 3 years.. Many of these properties are owned by senior military and police officers and most by the elite out of BKK.

Not may PTP supporters can afford to build such places.

There have been a number of story's on this issue over the last few years.

" Not may PTP supporters can afford to build such places."

You would be VERY surprised at how many could!

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[JRSoul]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

Your mentality is exactly the same as that of the encroachers - its a good earner so WGAF if it's in a national park.

Why not build a dozen more?

[JRSoul]

"The park chief said the department has filed more than 400 cases against owners of properties encroached and built inside national parks during the past three years."

The past three years were a wild wild west in many ways. Things are changing for the better now.

Don't forget most of these properties have been there for years. Real enforcement has begun over the last 3 years.. Many of these properties are owned by senior military and police officers and most by the elite out of BKK.

Not may PTP supporters can afford to build such places.

There have been a number of story's on this issue over the last few years.

"Not may PTP supporters can afford to build such places."

Perhaps not the deluded fools that vote for them, but the Shinawatras and their political cronies have the money, the influence and the callous disregard of Thai law and the Thai people, in spades.

[casualbiker]

What I don't understand is -- why not confiscate it, maintain it, and send the revenue to the Ministry?

Your mentality is exactly the same as that of the encroachers - its a good earner so WGAF if it's in a national park.

Why not build a dozen more?

The parks department run their own resorts in national Parks already. I stayed at a nice one on the border of Loie and Petchabun last year.

http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/nature.asp?lg=2

It's going to be extremely difficult to bring it back to nature.

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