How much land?

[marcodigio]

Or I should ask...How long a piece of string is?

Hi...I would be grateful if somebody with experience in farming could give me some advise. First, just a bit of background information to explain the question. I'm in the mid thirties and married to a thai lady. We still live in UK, but have a medium-long (7-10 years) time plan to move to Thailand. There are many reasons for that, but at the moment I don't want to bother anyone with an excessive long post.

We are trying hard to come up with ideas that will give us a decent monthly income. The best plan so far entices to save money and slowly buy enough land until we think it would be enough to get a monthly income of about 100K baht.

Once we reach that goal the plan is either to rent or sell the house in UK (keep the capital invested) and move to Thailand and work the land with my wife's family. At the moment I am really not sure of what is going to be planted on the land, it will very much depend on what will give a good yield at the time. The land will be around the Aranyaprathet area, the main crops there seem to be cassava and rubber. We have already own 10 rai. At the moment it is difficult to gauge how much income we will get because we had the land for just few weeks and we are not there to check costs and monitor that everything has been done properly.

To come back to the original question, How much land do you think is necessary to own for a farang of medium abilities to make a decent living out of it? 50-100 rai? or much more?

thanks for any advise

marco

[pigeonjake]

hi marco

have read through the many many posts on here and i think youll get the jist of it here,,

its very hard mate, i cant tell you how much youll need as i dont grow crops, i farm pigs also we have a few duck and chickens,

but like i say read the other posts about ,,rubber, yucka,(spelling) suger, kasava , grass, *(not that kind), just do a bit of reading mate,

jake

[soidog2]

I do not have experience with rubber, for Cassava you will need quite a few hundred rai.

Not doable.

Personally, I think you need to lower your expectations. Perhaps with rubber you can do better.

Good Luck!

[marcodigio]

Hi Jake,

Thank you for your reply. Yes, unfortunately (or fortunately) I know that is very hard. I have visited Thailand many times, and for sure even with my limited knowledge I can tell there is no silver bullet. I thought to minimise the risks with a long term plan. I have been reading the forums, especially the ones about rubber and cassava. A very good guy (sorry can’t recall his name) even posted a spreadsheet to calculate the profit of a cassava field, but to me it seems to yield an extremely low return of investment. A yearly profit on a 100 rai field is quoted to be 650k Baht. I am starting to think if it really worth the hassle. The reason I have asked the question is because I thought that real life returns, that forum users have had over the years, would be more encouraging.

[David48]

Marco, have a read of this, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/648385-farming-greenhorns-tips-for-surviving-the-early-years/ there maybe some useful information for you.

.

[pigeonjake]

we do pigs as you will see if you read the pig thread,

the reason you dont need much land, there not hard to keep, i can do our in a couple of hours in the morning and night,

but draw back you have to be there every day, we get mama to help if we go out,,lol

its all down to you, if you want to be hands on or leave it to the family,,??

then you have to ask questions,, are they good with money? do they really know what there on about,? not all thais can farm,, but listening to them you would think they new about everything,lol

are you going to live on your farm,? if not whats the security like?

theres loads of things to think of mate,

sit down with your wife and look through the farming topics and ask her questions too,

wishing you well

jake

ps dont go rushing into things

[kickstart]

Hi Jake,

Thank you for your reply. Yes, unfortunately (or fortunately) I know that is very hard. I have visited Thailand many times, and for sure even with my limited knowledge I can tell there is no silver bullet. I thought to minimise the risks with a long term plan. I have been reading the forums, especially the ones about rubber and cassava. A very good guy (sorry can’t recall his name) even posted a spreadsheet to calculate the profit of a cassava field, but to me it seems to yield an extremely low return of investment. A yearly profit on a 100 rai field is quoted to be 650k Baht. I am starting to think if it really worth the hassle. The reason I have asked the question is because I thought that real life returns, that forum users have had over the years, would be more encouraging.

Like PJ I have read many posts by people in your situation, if you think 650k return is bad from 100 Rie I would not venture in to farming,to me that is good ,here in the central plains it is maize, cassava and cane and cows,cows do not make that kind a money ,maize no way, the way cassava is growing this year can not seeing it doing well especially on light land , no rain,that above figure must have been a good year average it out over a few years I can not see it reatching that figure,and what type of land was it.

Also, this mono cultural of cassava can not go on for ever , cassava is an exhaustive crop,takes out more than it puts in,yeilds will drop.

Who knows what the price will be over the next few years .

Could try rubber but need to wait some years for a return,which would suit you well thinking of the future.

What would I do?, buy my own kit, grow maize and maybe mungbeans,keep the job simple.

Got to agree with soi dog2 lower your expectations.

[marcodigio]

Hi, thank you for all your replies. I agree with you, I have to lower my expectations. The only reason I mentioned a figure of 100K is because I'm still thinking with a western point of view. Paying up-front a quite big sum of money for 100 rai, one would expect a decent return from it. I understand this is not necessarily the case in Thailand, and that's the reason why I asked advice.

Rubber seems a good idea. Especially considering the fact that living in UK still I wouldn't need an income for the next few years.

[marcodigio]

we do pigs as you will see if you read the pig thread,

the reason you dont need much land, there not hard to keep, i can do our in a couple of hours in the morning and night,

but draw back you have to be there every day, we get mama to help if we go out,,lol

its all down to you, if you want to be hands on or leave it to the family,,??

then you have to ask questions,, are they good with money? do they really know what there on about,? not all thais can farm,, but listening to them you would think they new about everything,lol

are you going to live on your farm,? if not whats the security like?

theres loads of things to think of mate,

sit down with your wife and look through the farming topics and ask her questions too,

wishing you well

jake

ps dont go rushing into things

Pigs sounds like a good idea, I have mentioned it to my wife few weeks ago. Her reply was that a some point the pigs would need to be killed and that is bad karma for her. She would rather get involved with producing something.

That's her way of thinking, but I quite like the idea myself and maybe with time I could convince her.

Your question about being hands on? Definitely, 100% yes. The reason being that I always worked and don't want to suddenly stop, also even if I am not used to working in the heat and probably will not be as productive as a thai person, I will be the one paying all the expenditures, so I NEED to know what is going on. I always liked working, I always want to learn, so the idea of sitting down and see other people work doesn't appeal to me. The reason I want to get the family involved is because being married I see them as part of my family too. My wife works and helps her mum out a bit every month. I would like to offer them the opportunity to work (not her mum obviously!) and earn the money.

Like you said....lots of thinking, that's why I'm starting years ahead :-)

Thanks

marco

[Mark1971]

OP

I was in a similar position to yourself 7 - 10 years ago.

The wife now owns 200 Rai in Chiang Rai, plan is to do rubber & fish in the future.

(We are still in the UK & have decided to defer any further Thailand investments until we are living there full time).

My focus right now is on my children's education & building up my UK assets / pension / passive income.

There are many things you need to think about carefully.

1. If you have, or plan to have children, do you want them educated to International standards?

This is very very expensive in Thailand.

Medical insurance is another big cost in Thailand.

100k a month is ok for a Thai family, or a couple, but it isn't enough for a western family with 2 kids.

If you want a basic Western standard of living, 1 x car, medical insurance, 3 bed house rental fee & international school fees.

Plan on 200k B a month.

Remember the kids won't be able to travel from the village to the International school every day, so you will need a house near the school.

2. Farmland in Thailand is very expensive compared to 5 or 10 years ago, very difficult to get a decent ROI from farming if the land costs

150 K Baht per Rai.

3. All of the assets you build up in Thailand will belong to your wife. If your marriage breaks down, worst case you will be returning to the

UK in your mid 40's to start again penniless.

If you have read 1 - 3 and still want to make it happen by farming in Thailand, try not to fixate on the size of the land.

Find a couple of more specialist or technical ideas that will work on a smaller piece of land, 5 to 20 Rai should be enough.

[pigeonjake]

OP

I was in a similar position to yourself 7 - 10 years ago.

The wife now owns 200 Rai in Chiang Rai, plan is to do rubber & fish in the future.

(We are still in the UK & have decided to defer any further Thailand investments until we are living there full time).

My focus right now is on my children's education & building up my UK assets / pension / passive income.

There are many things you need to think about carefully.

1. If you have, or plan to have children, do you want them educated to International standards?

This is very very expensive in Thailand.

Medical insurance is another big cost in Thailand.

100k a month is ok for a Thai family, or a couple, but it isn't enough for a western family with 2 kids.

If you want a basic Western standard of living, 1 x car, medical insurance, 3 bed house rental fee & international school fees.

Plan on 200k B a month.

Remember the kids won't be able to travel from the village to the International school every day, so you will need a house near the school.

2. Farmland in Thailand is very expensive compared to 5 or 10 years ago, very difficult to get a decent ROI from farming if the land costs

150 K Baht per Rai.

3. All of the assets you build up in Thailand will belong to your wife. If your marriage breaks down, worst case you will be returning to the

UK in your mid 40's to start again penniless.

If you have read 1 - 3 and still want to make it happen by farming in Thailand, try not to fixate on the size of the land.

Find a couple of more specialist or technical ideas that will work on a smaller piece of land, 5 to 20 Rai should be enough.

i cant get my head around 200k a month,

i agree with everything else

[somo]

You won't need 200k/month. We live on about 45-50k/month quite comfortably but no schooling involved.

If you can earn 100k (a sensible goal) then you can save and have a nice stash for the unexpected stuff that will of course happen.

You will struggle to earn more than 6k/rai/year from agriculture (10k if you invest in irrigation) and land is generally too expensive now to make it worthwhile.

Probably best to think of animal or fish farming but they need a lot more of your time so you need to be living here first.

[Mosha]

Rubber isn't what it was. Cup rubber at around 25 baht/kg, and sheets at about 60Baht. No of the guys in the Rubber Trees forum expect it to improve much. More countries growing it.

[marcodigio]

Listening to you guys, my idea is already shifting. It seems too much investment and work for 100 rai of land to get a return of 6K baht/rai. You would be much better off sticking the money in an investment fund with an income of 5-6% and some capital grow as well.

Fish or/and animal farming seems a better prospect, although more research is needed as my knowledge at the moment is very limited.

[pigeonjake]

please please dont take this the wrong way i dont mean anything bad please believe me,

but if you fancy doing pigs you go for it and keep your money in the bank, buy 20 rai or something on that and sit on that, that will be plenty,

dont be listening to the family to much, why should you be buying hundreds of rai, this believe me could be a face thing, and insurence policy,

like i said 20 rai you could do so much with, pigs fish ducks, amny things, you dont need hundreds of rai, all you will be doing is buying work,

please dont take what ive said bad, i dont mean it to be,,

this family didnt have hundreds of rai to get by on before you came along,,they managed, yes help a little i do with my wifes mum a little every month she helps us a lot, i also buy grandpas medicine for his tummy, i get that becouse i love the old guy,

just be carefull

jake

[Mosha]

Listening to you guys, my idea is already shifting. It seems too much investment and work for 100 rai of land to get a return of 6K baht/rai. You would be much better off sticking the money in an investment fund with an income of 5-6% and some capital grow as well.

Fish or/and animal farming seems a better prospect, although more research is needed as my knowledge at the moment is very limited.

If you can irrigate. Long beans. A 10mx10m plot may make 200 Baht/day. It's a lot of work though

[marcodigio]

please please dont take this the wrong way i dont mean anything bad please believe me,

but if you fancy doing pigs you go for it and keep your money in the bank, buy 20 rai or something on that and sit on that, that will be plenty,

dont be listening to the family to much, why should you be buying hundreds of rai, this believe me could be a face thing, and insurence policy,

like i said 20 rai you could do so much with, pigs fish ducks, amny things, you dont need hundreds of rai, all you will be doing is buying work,

please dont take what ive said bad, i dont mean it to be,,

this family didnt have hundreds of rai to get by on before you came along,,they managed, yes help a little i do with my wifes mum a little every month she helps us a lot, i also buy grandpas medicine for his tummy, i get that becouse i love the old guy,

just be carefull

jake

Hi Jake...please don't worry, I didn't take it the wrong way. I appreciate your advise very much. Buying land was entirely my idea, I never mentioned to my wife that I wanted to buy hundreds of rai. I trust her, but I don't trust her advice if you know what I mean. She is not in the business of farming nor is her family. I'm sure if I asked her how much money we would make with 100 rai she would say 200-300k a month. She wouldn't try to deceive me, but they got the mentality that is very easy to make money. She may be right in the sense that we may sell the cassava for that price, but she wouldn't know how to calculate all the expenses. That's why I came to TV forum, I wanted a clear opinion from guys like you that live over there.

Her family never asked me anything (so far!), I just thought it would be good to give them a way to help themselves.

I'm just trying to find a way to make a living over there. I thought farming was a good idea.

Now I think farming is not such a good idea.

But I like your idea of pigs and other animal farming.

[David48]

I'm sure if I asked her how much money we would make with 100 rai she would say 200-300k a month. She wouldn't try to deceive me, but they got the mentality that is very easy to make money.

Mate, we are all just trying to help a little.

One thing to consider.

It seems that sometimes when you ask a Thai person, how much profit did you make, they will tell you '200-300k a month'. What they are referring to the price they sold the product for.

Even if it cost 400k in inputs to make the 300k.

The Thai Family I'm involved (gf's parents) with a large scale Fish and Prawn Farming operation. I asked, with expectation once, to look at their books ... and I got that blank stare. Books ... what books ...

IMHO, Farming, across the globe is a business.

It's a business when there is an expectation to make money, an income, a salary from it.

If it's not worked as a business, then it's a wonderfully enjoyable lifestyle ... a hobby farm.

[Mark1971]

OP

I was in a similar position to yourself 7 - 10 years ago.

The wife now owns 200 Rai in Chiang Rai, plan is to do rubber & fish in the future.

(We are still in the UK & have decided to defer any further Thailand investments until we are living there full time).

My focus right now is on my children's education & building up my UK assets / pension / passive income.

There are many things you need to think about carefully.

1. If you have, or plan to have children, do you want them educated to International standards?

This is very very expensive in Thailand.

Medical insurance is another big cost in Thailand.

100k a month is ok for a Thai family, or a couple, but it isn't enough for a western family with 2 kids.

If you want a basic Western standard of living, 1 x car, medical insurance, 3 bed house rental fee & international school fees.

Plan on 200k B a month.

Remember the kids won't be able to travel from the village to the International school every day, so you will need a house near the school.

2. Farmland in Thailand is very expensive compared to 5 or 10 years ago, very difficult to get a decent ROI from farming if the land costs

150 K Baht per Rai.

3. All of the assets you build up in Thailand will belong to your wife. If your marriage breaks down, worst case you will be returning to the

UK in your mid 40's to start again penniless.

If you have read 1 - 3 and still want to make it happen by farming in Thailand, try not to fixate on the size of the land.

Find a couple of more specialist or technical ideas that will work on a smaller piece of land, 5 to 20 Rai should be enough.

i cant get my head around 200k a month,

i agree with everything else

Will try not to turn this into an argument, like the one about the price of pineapples. LOL

200K a month is what we will need if we relocate to Thailand, while the kids are still at school.

The kids are half Thai, but due to living in the UK they think of themselves as 100% British.

Therefore to be fair to my kids, providing an International standard Western Education is a must if we move to Thailand.

International school fees for 2 kids in Thailand = > 100k Baht a month, including the extras (Transport fees, uniform fees, extra sports fees, book fees etc)

There aren't any good International schools located near our land, so we would have to rent an apartment or house near the school. = >15k Baht a month.

Medical insurance for 4 people 10k a month.

That's 125k a month on things that would cost zero in the UK.

Of course others do things differently & avoid these costs, but these are the costs I would incur.

[Mark1971]

You won't need 200k/month. We live on about 45-50k/month quite comfortably but no schooling involved.

If you can earn 100k (a sensible goal) then you can save and have a nice stash for the unexpected stuff that will of course happen.

You will struggle to earn more than 6k/rai/year from agriculture (10k if you invest in irrigation) and land is generally too expensive now to make it worthwhile.

Probably best to think of animal or fish farming but they need a lot more of your time so you need to be living here first.

Once the kids have finished school, 40 - 50k a month in Thailand will do us fine.

Especially as we will have, no mortgage & no debts.

[David48]

Listening to you guys, my idea is already shifting. It seems too much investment and work for 100 rai of land to get a return of 6K baht/rai. You would be much better off sticking the money in an investment fund with an income of 5-6% and some capital grow as well.

Fish or/and animal farming seems a better prospect, although more research is needed as my knowledge at the moment is very limited.

I come from a Farming background, both here and in Thailand.

But I also come from a Investment background and can fully appreciate the comment above ... "sticking the money in an investment fund with an income of 5-6% and some capital grow as well."

So, some quick sums for you ...

Say you had a nest egg Capital of £500,000 back in the land of the soap dodgers (I'm an Aussie)

The return on that converted to Thai Baht and expressed on a monthly basis at the current exchange rate of 55 Baht to the Pound would be ...

Return @ 4% = Bt 91,667

Return @ 5% = Bt 114,583

Return @ 6% = Bt 137,500

I have included a 4% view because sometimes we are optomistic as to what the long term returns you might get on your investments given the low inflation in Europe, now, and for the immediate future.

.

[marcodigio]

Say you had a nest egg Capital of £500,000 back in the land of the soap dodgers (I'm an Aussie)

Your calculations are spot on mate....the only problem is I haven't got £500K

Trying to work and save hard, but life in UK is very expensive! Hopefully the house prices keep going and I could have a nice equity!

[Mark1971]

If it was just me & the wife, I wouldn't wait the 7 - 10 years.

I would start ASAP.

My income target would be 100k Baht a month.

My target living costs would be 40k Baht a month.

Step 1.

Dip your toe in the water.

Rent out your house in the UK.

Move to Thailand for 1 year, rent some land, rent a house, buy a pick up truck & start farming to see if you think it will work for you.

If you decide it's not for you, sell the truck & move back to your house in the UK.

You will still be young, have had an interesting year out of the rat race & haven't lost anything significant.

If it works out move to step 2.

Step 2.

Buy a house & land.

20 Rai of farmland with access to water.

1.5 M Baht to build a house.

Use your experience from step 1 & don't put all your eggs in one basket.

I would try something like:

2 Rai of mushroom houses.

8 Rai of fish.

10 Rai of hydroponic organic vegetables, to sell to restaurants / hotels etc.

[marcodigio]

I would try something like:

2 Rai of mushroom houses.

8 Rai of fish.

10 Rai of hydroponic organic vegetables, to sell to restaurants / hotels etc.

Hi Mark,

I like your way of thinking.

Do you find it easy to find buyers for your produces?

[pigeonjake]

If it was just me & the wife, I wouldn't wait the 7 - 10 years.

I would start ASAP.

My income target would be 100k Baht a month.

My target living costs would be 40k Baht a month.

Step 1.

Dip your toe in the water.

Rent out your house in the UK.

Move to Thailand for 1 year, rent some land, rent a house, buy a pick up truck & start farming to see if you think it will work for you.

If you decide it's not for you, sell the truck & move back to your house in the UK.

You will still be young, have had an interesting year out of the rat race & haven't lost anything significant.

If it works out move to step 2.

Step 2.

Buy a house & land.

20 Rai of farmland with access to water.

1.5 M Baht to build a house.

Use your experience from step 1 & don't put all your eggs in one basket.

I would try something like:

2 Rai of mushroom houses.

8 Rai of fish.

10 Rai of hydroponic organic vegetables, to sell to restaurants / hotels etc.

you forgot pigs,,lol,

and ducks and chickens,,

like i say pigs dont take much room, we only have a farm of 2 rai but sell anything between 20 and 40 grown out pigs a month,

jake

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I have 5 rai of rice paddy I rent out.

Value of land 200k, rental income 10k/year.

Farming is backbreaking work for little return.

Very few Thais get beyond subsistence levels of income, what makes you think you will do better than people with years of experience?

Farmland that is affordable is not available anywhere you would like to live.

Land costs 10x what it did 10 years ago and is at an all time high.

Predicting land prices in 10 years time, who can tell.

PS

50% of marriages end in divorce. Are you sure?

[Jotham79]

It is very easy to farm on a calculator. I don't know of any farming enterprise that hasn't changed drastically in the last 15 years. Land that sold for 20,000 per rai is selling for 120,000 per rai. Swine flu....Bird flu....feed prices...wages....Asian contagion...rubber prices......corn prices......CP. My point is that what ever you plan now you need to understand risk.

When I came here 22 years ago, I met a farang who had been in Thailand10 years, had a couple of kids, had a small house in the country, spoke-read-wrote like a Thai and had the best business sense ( and a great job offshore). Over the next 10 years he bought 9 rai for 100K and planted teak (I bought land adjacent), bought 50 rai and planted Eucalyptus, 30 more rai and planted corn, bought another few rai and put in a dairy operation and a bunch of lime tress, he finally bought a lot on the main road and put in a house/shopstore that sold parts for Ford tractors, fertilizers and spray... ect. He made money on everything. I haven't seen him in maybe 8 years and 3 years ago I bought the first 9 rai he bought. After over 20 years his wife ran him off and she sold everything, but the house. my point here is that feces occurs.

Take a look at the "successful" farmers on this board 7 years ago and see how many are still here. And if you want to have some real fun ask everyone that is giving you advice to tell you how much land they own in Thailand, how much money they make per month now from farming, how much they have spent getting to this point, and how long have they been making a full living without a supplemental income.

Do you WANT to be a or do you just want to live in Thailand? If you really want to be a farmer, visit a half dozen farms to get an idea of what is realistic and (with a little luck) nothing will stop you.

Good luck

[Mark1971]

I would try something like:

2 Rai of mushroom houses.

8 Rai of fish.

10 Rai of hydroponic organic vegetables, to sell to restaurants / hotels etc.

Hi Mark,

I like your way of thinking.

Do you find it easy to find buyers for your produces?

When it comes to farming in Thailand, I am just an internet warrior.

We live in the UK but my work takes me all over the world, so I have a lot of time for research.

However I have dreamed of jacking in the day job for the last 8 - 10 years & moving to Thailand.

If you want to go, either:

1. Do it now while you are still young & gently dip your toe in the water.

or

2. Work your ass off until you have a UK based passive income that will cover your needs, move to Thailand & do the farming as a hobby.

[David48]

I have 5 rai of rice paddy I rent out.

Value of land 200k, rental income 10k/year.

That's not a bad rent for the land.

Does it have water, meaning 2 crops a year rather then dry farming rice?

[soidog2]

Listening to you guys, my idea is already shifting. It seems too much investment and work for 100 rai of land to get a return of 6K baht/rai. You would be much better off sticking the money in an investment fund with an income of 5-6% and some capital grow as well.

Fish or/and animal farming seems a better prospect, although more research is needed as my knowledge at the moment is very limited.

So far, this is your most sensible idea. If you own enough capital to produce sufficient income to cover your living expenses in Thailand; (not that hard; you can probably do it just by renting your house) When you finally move here; you can take your time and learn how to make money in Thailand.

It is possible but a steep learning curve, buying land for agriculture at today's prices is 100% a loosing proposition; you need to integrate wherever you will land; you will need strong family support on your wife's side.

As you seen from other posts, basic business management is generally unheard of in the country side; people count gross sales as profit; after a few years they exhaust their starting capital and do not understand why they are bankrupt. Happens on a daily basis to the most honest people.

If you entrust finances to your wife & her side of the family; you must be constantly on your toes regarding management or they will loose your money.