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Posted

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For those that say this was a vote buying scam, you are totaly wrong. The village funds were set up to give soft loans to the villagers to be able to buy fertilizers or seeds for crops etc, they paid a nominal interest rate and had to pay it back, or they could not get a loan in the future.

Come on, get real, you cannot really think what you write here, yes, it might have been what was said about it when the Shins created it, but the lies were quite transparent: why it was created, and how it was to be used, so, no propaganda, please!

Fabie retired?

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Posted

The Village Fund was continued and adopted by Ahbisit government. He see value in that fund too.

This is not 'crochet', this is pure 'lace', artwork! The way you succeed in bending and twisting, adapting, re-inventing, the reality of facts is really 'top'. I would applaud, when it would not be aimed at des-informing people. Are the Shins such great people in your opinion, or do you just do a, good, job for them? I wonder where you studied, you would have made a great penal attorney, why did you choose for this kind of 'things'?

Are you always so nice. Thanks for the laugh. BTW, do you have twin brothers who think and write like you?

Posted

That will be openly welcomed by the tax payer and I look forward to the Junta scraping the village fund after they analyze its spectacular failures. Next to the disastrous 30 baht health care scheme the village fund destroyed prosperity, crippled the poor in debt to loan sharks and made thaksin very rich off the back of the poor that he purported to help. In short, the village fund was a rushed program that was implemented to increase Thaksins wealth.

The fund was supposed to be used as a tool to reduce loan sharks. Nevertheless, instead of reducing them, it ended up exacerbating the effect. The need for borrowers to pay back their loans quickly (within a year) to the government after receiving loans from the fund caused borrowers to look to loan sharks for more loans to pay back previous loans. Although most households did pay back loans, they did so by borrowing from other sources. They even borrowed from the fund to pay back other debts by loan sharks which was not its intended purpose.

Household debt had gone up almost 100 percent from 2002 to 2004. It significantly increased from 68,405 Baht in 2000 (before TRT came to power) to 110,133 Baht in the first quarter of 2004.

Another problem was that the duration in which debtors had to pay back loans was too short (one year), and thus borrowers were unable to make use of loans. Especially in impoverished areas, people had limited loans of no more than 20,000 Baht.

Income inequality also got worse after the implementation of the program, due mainly to the manner in which the money was distributed: it was not sent directly to the poor. Around 90% of those receiving loans were categorized as non-poor and the poor had the lowest access to funding in all regions, except Bangkok. Among the poor, 6.53% of the extremely poor had access to the loans.

While the Village Fund program was able to increase household expenditures, households failed to utilize loans they received for investment purposes, which would have helped generate more jobs and incomes. Household expenditure increased from 189,258 Baht to 203,635 Baht or 7.6% increase compared to the period before the program began.

In addition, the program was designed without developing a plan on how the loans should be used by debtors, and as a result, most household expenditures were spent on non-consumption expenditure. The Chamber of Commerce’s findings showed that 40% of the fund was used to repay debt, 20% for luxuries, and 5% for productive investment. Clearly, the majority of people who took loans from the scheme did not use money to invest in their farms or businesses; instead they used loans to buy commodities that were beyond the means of decent subsistence, such as motorcycles, electronic devices, and cell phones. Thaksin being the sole distributor of mobile phones at the time essentially gave tax payers money to the poor who in turn gave it directly back to him!

Households were also not able to increase savings, despite the increase in their income. Savings stayed at the same level of 28.1% of overall expenditure,

Thus, it can be concluded that people did not utilize loans towards investment activities that could help them escape poverty. Which is the common theme in not only Thaksin populism, but populism worldwide. The schemes are supposed to look good, win votes, but keep them poor. If it didn't then the carrot in front of the donkey would disappear and people would vote freely based on strong political credentials, honesty, integrity and transparency. (Which unfortunately are all the things politicians lack!!)

But you get my point…..

Normally I agree with what you say and I wouldn't disagree with your take on the village fund.

But, the 30 Baht health card scheme was not disastrous. It was insufficiently funded at inception (whistle-blowing hospital directors being hounded) but it has been an overall success and no right-minded government of any shape has or will discard it.

  • Like 1
Posted

The Village Fund was continued and adopted by Ahbisit government. He see value in that fund too.

This is not 'crochet', this is pure 'lace', artwork! The way you succeed in bending and twisting, adapting, re-inventing, the reality of facts is really 'top'. I would applaud, when it would not be aimed at des-informing people. Are the Shins such great people in your opinion, or do you just do a, good, job for them? I wonder where you studied, you would have made a great penal attorney, why did you choose for this kind of 'things'?

Are you always so nice. Thanks for the laugh. BTW, do you have twin brothers who think and write like you?

Don't mention it. And, no, no brothers, nor sisters, I just write what I personally think. Cheers

Posted

What could possibly go wrong with a conduit like Nalinee running the show?

Women Empowerment Fund

7.7 Billion Baht

Scheme run by PM's Office Minister Nalinee Taveesin AKA "Crony" of African Strongman Mugabe

http://www.icij.org/offshore/mugabe-crony-among-thai-names-secret-offshore-files

Everyone can have a chance to be a born again good guy and walk in the path of righteousness following the fine example of Kamnan Suthep.

Nice to see you can appreciate good things too. But you're overdoing it here, Suthep has IMO, quite unexpectedly, achieved some great things, for the Thai people, in his more recent personal history, but righteousness... As for Nalinee, I wouldn't have even, very, limited hopes. Thai persons seem to make an interesting difference between a person being 'no good' (OK, nit noi) and a 'blackheart' (mai OK, bah). Nalinee style...?

Posted (edited)

************* THIS IS NOT A RUMOR*****************

Just merely a request for accurate info:

More than 10 years ago I had a conversation concerning the 1000,000 Baht per village scheme and was told that in order for the villagers to receive their loans they had to give over their land deed documents (quite a lot of Isarn farmers had/have 1, 2, 3 rai of land ) as collateral which suggested to me that the scheme was nothing more than an attempted land grab. Frankly I have had trouble believing this to be true even I can't believe Thaksin would try anything that low.

Simply put do any of the TVF posters know this to be correct or is it as I believe a falsehood

Thanks in advance

BKKStooge

Edited by bkkstooge
Posted

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

************* THIS IS NOT A RUMOR*****************

Just merely a request for accurate info:

More than 10 years ago I had a conversation concerning the 1000,000 Baht per village scheme and was told that in order for the villagers to receive their loans they had to give over their land deed documents (quite a lot of Isarn farmers had/have 1, 2, 3 rai of land ) as collateral which suggested to me that the scheme was nothing more than an attempted land grab. Frankly I have had trouble believing this to be true even I can't believe Thaksin would try anything that low.

Simply put do any of the TVF posters know this to be correct or is it as I believe a falsehood

Thanks in advance

BKKStooge

Been to the Robert school to learn some new tactics have we fabie?

You guys seem to think that everybody who reads these threads is totally stupid and totally gullible.

  • Like 1
Posted

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The Village Fund was continued and adopted by Ahbisit government. He see value in that fund too.

This is not 'crochet', this is pure 'lace', artwork! The way you succeed in bending and twisting, adapting, re-inventing, the reality of facts is really 'top'. I would applaud, when it would not be aimed at des-informing people. Are the Shins such great people in your opinion, or do you just do a, good, job for them? I wonder where you studied, you would have made a great penal attorney, why did you choose for this kind of 'things'?


Are you always so nice. Thanks for the laugh. BTW, do you have twin brothers who think and write like you?

Don't mention it. And, no, no brothers, nor sisters, I just write what I personally think. Cheers

smile.png

Posted

Don't know about the womans fund but if what has been reported is correct it would seem the village funds have been very effective as a tool in vote gathering.

The reported threat is said to have been that if the village vote goes against a particular party then the fund will be withheld from that village.

Or a rumor is spread that if an opposition party gets in they will scrap the village fund.

Either is a powerful incentive for village heads to ensure the collective village vote goes the correct way.

No need to waste money on vote buying.

It goes deeper than that. My Thai friend of the last 25 years borrowed from the village fund. When it was clear that he did not vote for the Shins, they came and demanded the money back immediately. Sadly he was unable to pay and the family have been threatened many times, even though they has made small repayments. Now that he is seriously ill there is no chance. I don't have much cash, but I've now paid it for him as the situation became intolerable a few months back). The whole scheme was a scam and I understood some of the interest received even went to Shin proxies.

Posted

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

************* THIS IS NOT A RUMOR*****************

Just merely a request for accurate info:

More than 10 years ago I had a conversation concerning the 1000,000 Baht per village scheme and was told that in order for the villagers to receive their loans they had to give over their land deed documents (quite a lot of Isarn farmers had/have 1, 2, 3 rai of land ) as collateral which suggested to me that the scheme was nothing more than an attempted land grab. Frankly I have had trouble believing this to be true even I can't believe Thaksin would try anything that low.

Simply put do any of the TVF posters know this to be correct or is it as I believe a falsehood

Thanks in advance

BKKStooge

Been to the Robert school to learn some new tactics have we fabie?

You guys seem to think that everybody who reads these threads is totally stupid and totally gullible.

xhuh.png.pagespeed.ic.6VcCaNwNXg.png Scorecard I am a million miles away from ever having an opinion close to Fabby let alone that slug Amsterdam ( Please checkout my previous posts in fact the one I made about a minute ago on the "international concern amounts" post ) I sincerely would like to know if villagers had to hand over official documents showing their ownership of small land holdings in order to get a loan

Posted

That will be openly welcomed by the tax payer and I look forward to the Junta scraping the village fund after they analyze its spectacular failures. Next to the disastrous 30 baht health care scheme the village fund destroyed prosperity, crippled the poor in debt to loan sharks and made thaksin very rich off the back of the poor that he purported to help. In short, the village fund was a rushed program that was implemented to increase Thaksins wealth.

The fund was supposed to be used as a tool to reduce loan sharks. Nevertheless, instead of reducing them, it ended up exacerbating the effect. The need for borrowers to pay back their loans quickly (within a year) to the government after receiving loans from the fund caused borrowers to look to loan sharks for more loans to pay back previous loans. Although most households did pay back loans, they did so by borrowing from other sources. They even borrowed from the fund to pay back other debts by loan sharks which was not its intended purpose.

Household debt had gone up almost 100 percent from 2002 to 2004. It significantly increased from 68,405 Baht in 2000 (before TRT came to power) to 110,133 Baht in the first quarter of 2004.

Another problem was that the duration in which debtors had to pay back loans was too short (one year), and thus borrowers were unable to make use of loans. Especially in impoverished areas, people had limited loans of no more than 20,000 Baht.

Income inequality also got worse after the implementation of the program, due mainly to the manner in which the money was distributed: it was not sent directly to the poor. Around 90% of those receiving loans were categorized as non-poor and the poor had the lowest access to funding in all regions, except Bangkok. Among the poor, 6.53% of the extremely poor had access to the loans.

While the Village Fund program was able to increase household expenditures, households failed to utilize loans they received for investment purposes, which would have helped generate more jobs and incomes. Household expenditure increased from 189,258 Baht to 203,635 Baht or 7.6% increase compared to the period before the program began.

In addition, the program was designed without developing a plan on how the loans should be used by debtors, and as a result, most household expenditures were spent on non-consumption expenditure. The Chamber of Commerce’s findings showed that 40% of the fund was used to repay debt, 20% for luxuries, and 5% for productive investment. Clearly, the majority of people who took loans from the scheme did not use money to invest in their farms or businesses; instead they used loans to buy commodities that were beyond the means of decent subsistence, such as motorcycles, electronic devices, and cell phones. Thaksin being the sole distributor of mobile phones at the time essentially gave tax payers money to the poor who in turn gave it directly back to him!

Households were also not able to increase savings, despite the increase in their income. Savings stayed at the same level of 28.1% of overall expenditure,

Thus, it can be concluded that people did not utilize loans towards investment activities that could help them escape poverty. Which is the common theme in not only Thaksin populism, but populism worldwide. The schemes are supposed to look good, win votes, but keep them poor. If it didn't then the carrot in front of the donkey would disappear and people would vote freely based on strong political credentials, honesty, integrity and transparency. (Which unfortunately are all the things politicians lack!!)

But you get my point…..

Normally I agree with what you say and I wouldn't disagree with your take on the village fund.

But, the 30 Baht health card scheme was not disastrous. It was insufficiently funded at inception (whistle-blowing hospital directors being hounded) but it has been an overall success and no right-minded government of any shape has or will discard it.

Te 30 baht scheme was stolen from a previous government. It was not an original idea.

Also the scheme (like all Thaksin 'thinks') was not thought through and the Government did not come up with sufficient funding to pay hospitals the shortfalls incurred leaving many hospitals with debt. The original scheme included a provision for gap funding. Under Thaksin this important aspect was ignored. That's partly why you saw so many health workers supporting Suthep.

  • Like 2
Posted

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

************* THIS IS NOT A RUMOR*****************

Just merely a request for accurate info:

More than 10 years ago I had a conversation concerning the 1000,000 Baht per village scheme and was told that in order for the villagers to receive their loans they had to give over their land deed documents (quite a lot of Isarn farmers had/have 1, 2, 3 rai of land ) as collateral which suggested to me that the scheme was nothing more than an attempted land grab. Frankly I have had trouble believing this to be true even I can't believe Thaksin would try anything that low.

Simply put do any of the TVF posters know this to be correct or is it as I believe a falsehood

Thanks in advance

BKKStooge

Been to the Robert school to learn some new tactics have we fabie?

You guys seem to think that everybody who reads these threads is totally stupid and totally gullible.

xhuh.png.pagespeed.ic.6VcCaNwNXg.png Scorecard I am a million miles away from ever having an opinion close to Fabby let alone that slug Amsterdam ( Please checkout my previous posts in fact the one I made about a minute ago on the "international concern amounts" post ) I sincerely would like to know if villagers had to hand over official documents showing their ownership of small land holdings in order to get a loan

Whoops Maybe Not!

Posted

For those that say this was a vote buying scam, you are totaly wrong. The village funds were set up to give soft loans to the villagers to be able to buy fertilizers or seeds for crops etc, they paid a nominal interest rate and had to pay it back, or they could not get a loan in the future.

Come on, get real, you cannot really think what you write here, yes, it might have been what was said about it when the Shins created it, but the lies were quite transparent: why it was created, and how it was to be used, so, no propaganda, please!

It is not propaganda, I live in one of these villages I have seen how it works and it was not for vote buying.

  • Like 1
Posted

Don't know about the womans fund but if what has been reported is correct it would seem the village funds have been very effective as a tool in vote gathering.

The reported threat is said to have been that if the village vote goes against a particular party then the fund will be withheld from that village.

Or a rumor is spread that if an opposition party gets in they will scrap the village fund.

Either is a powerful incentive for village heads to ensure the collective village vote goes the correct way.

No need to waste money on vote buying.

It goes deeper than that. My Thai friend of the last 25 years borrowed from the village fund. When it was clear that he did not vote for the Shins, they came and demanded the money back immediately. Sadly he was unable to pay and the family have been threatened many times, even though they has made small repayments. Now that he is seriously ill there is no chance. I don't have much cash, but I've now paid it for him as the situation became intolerable a few months back). The whole scheme was a scam and I understood some of the interest received even went to Shin proxies.

So how was it discovered that he didn't vote for "the Shins" ... ? And how much did he borrow for this to have become so serious? And who was it that came after him and demanded the money back immediately? The local people that run the scheme?

If we're going on anecdotes I asked a friend about this a while back. He's originally from Sukhotai province and the area which his family lives in is pretty much Democrat, but they had been able to access money from the scheme without any apparent problems (not his parents, but other people in the village). However, was once chatting to a bartender in BKK (this must be eight or nine years ago now) who was originally from the rural Nong Khai area. He thought the village scheme was a scam and that people had been fooled into sacrificing real l/t gains for short-term satisfaction. So opinions differ and the studies I've seen fit with that, certainly the one World Bank did a few years ago suggested that the scheme whilst the scheme wasn't totally worthless, the positive impact was pretty minimal in most cases. I think many people borrowed from it to pay off loan sharks but also found the repayment period was too short.

I think if it really was a complete scam more people would see through it than not and the Democrat and 2006 post-coup governments surely would've scrapped it when they had chance. Same with the rice scheme I guess. You could certainly run a scheme better than PT did, but you're still going to have to fork out 80 - 90 billion a year minimum if you want to keep farmers satisfied. Better run and managed schemes would be the thing, not scrapping the projects entirely (unless you want to actually encourage an uprising).

Posted

For those that say this was a vote buying scam, you are totaly wrong. The village funds were set up to give soft loans to the villagers to be able to buy fertilizers or seeds for crops etc, they paid a nominal interest rate and had to pay it back, or they could not get a loan in the future.

Come on, get real, you cannot really think what you write here, yes, it might have been what was said about it when the Shins created it, but the lies were quite transparent: why it was created, and how it was to be used, so, no propaganda, please!

It is not propaganda, I live in one of these villages I have seen how it works and it was not for vote buying.

Yes, I think a lot of people who dismiss these schemes perhaps don't know a lot of people upcountry and haven't spent time there. I haven't either and I just wouldn't go on the anecdotes of the few people I have spoken to about it. In fact I don't think I've ever spoken to anyone that's actually used it. But I always thought it wouldn't have been so popular (according to polls etc) if it was really as bad as many people claim it is. Obviously they think they're deriving a benefit from it. Now there are some people that discuss bad experiences like Ian above, but one story - bad as it sounds - doesn't invalidate the scheme entirely. I mean, I've heard stories about people getting poor treatment on the 30 baht scheme, but it was obviously a massive improvement on what came before.

Posted

What could possibly go wrong with a conduit like Nalinee running the show?

Women Empowerment Fund

7.7 Billion Baht

Scheme run by PM's Office Minister Nalinee Taveesin AKA "Crony" of African Strongman Mugabe

http://www.icij.org/offshore/mugabe-crony-among-thai-names-secret-offshore-files

The entire country should hang their heads in shame after reading this article.

No wonder the international impression of Thailand is so low. I hope this despicable example of corrupt trash gets exposed in court and made to publicly explain herself.

Is this one of the Shin clan? Or just related by lack of moral fiber?

Corruption is like cancer, and Thailand appears from the outside to be terminal, thanks to these diseased dogs.

  • Like 2
Posted

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

************* THIS IS NOT A RUMOR*****************

Just merely a request for accurate info:

More than 10 years ago I had a conversation concerning the 1000,000 Baht per village scheme and was told that in order for the villagers to receive their loans they had to give over their land deed documents (quite a lot of Isarn farmers had/have 1, 2, 3 rai of land ) as collateral which suggested to me that the scheme was nothing more than an attempted land grab. Frankly I have had trouble believing this to be true even I can't believe Thaksin would try anything that low.

Simply put do any of the TVF posters know this to be correct or is it as I believe a falsehood

Thanks in advance

BKKStooge

Been to the Robert school to learn some new tactics have we fabie?

You guys seem to think that everybody who reads these threads is totally stupid and totally gullible.

huh.png Scorecard I am a million miles away from ever having an opinion close to Fabby let alone that slug Amsterdam ( Please checkout my previous posts in fact the one I made about a minute ago on the "international concern amounts" post ) I sincerely would like to know if villagers had to hand over official documents showing their ownership of small land holdings in order to get a loan

You really doubt that the claim / suggestion that landowners had to hand over their land documents is true (village by village of course)?

Perhaps you'd like to get better acquainted with how things work in this country, and better acquainted in regard to how unaware and illiterate folks are taken advantage of.

You say "... (quite a lot of Isarn farmers had/have 1, 2, 3 rai of land )...". And there are also many who rent land to grow there crops.

Posted

To garner votes politicians in most countries make promises and commitments.

So is that considered vote buying?

It happens in every election that's how governments are elected.

The Australian government now is under extreme pressure after less than a year and they won by a landslide all because they lied to the Aussie public.

Funny thing politics you win buy a landslide and yet if an election was held today the polls say there gone.

Vote buying in Thailand happens on both sides same as corruption it's just that the losing side try and highlight it as an excuse for their failings for being out of touch with the people.

Posted

There is no political agenda here or bias. The Thai army is "scrutinizing" these funds.

No there isn't. As for crooked politicians, they got kicked out for all their feudal nepotism, cronyism and swindling. Awesome, ain't it?! Please come visit Israel, the US and the Rothschilds and Rockefellers. Show 'em how it can be done Prayuth. The world is lacking in men who are leaders with courage. Its nice to see some things finally being done without fear of assassination by the Shinawatra cartel (which they have done on many occasions).

If there's one thing the military government doesn't quite need right now it is to be enlisted to the nonsense nostrums of the conspiracy brigade

  • Like 1
Posted

There is no political agenda here or bias. The Thai army is "scrutinizing" these funds.

Such funds need to be scrutinised. This is public money.

  • Like 1
Posted

Sorry mine was taken out of a newspaper report. Yours was a personal opinion and a BS no doubt.

"The reason for the additional funding is to enable the funds to expend the memberships and elevate them to become a bank"

Please provide link to said newspaper report on the intention to turn the village funds into a bank. Thank you wai.gif

Actually came out in TVF in 2012.

www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/593640-yingluck-marks-10-years-of-village-fund/

It is a community bank or a despository institution. Very much independent and for banks who have limited funds.

Actually in the police speech with which Ms. Yingluck opened in August 2011 we had

"1.10 Improve people’s access to sources of funding; provide support for micro-credit provision, especially credit for low-income earners; increase public welfare to take care of the community; provide sources of funding to entrepreneurs and people through the following measures:

1.10.1 Increase the Village and Urban Community Fund to 1 million Baht per unit.

1.10.2 Establish a fund to develop women’s roles with an average funding of 100 million Baht per province.

1.10.3 Establish a fund of 1,000 million Baht for participating universities to promote the creation of small entrepreneurs and enable them to borrow money supported by a “business incubator” service within educational institutions and to create innovative enterprises which will drive the economy.

1.10.4 Allocate funding to the SML fund for community and village development to the amount of 300,000 Baht, 400,000 Baht and 500,000 Baht, corresponding with the village size in order for villages to manage for their own development."

Of course this was just policy, the overseeing Ms. Yingluck left to others. As far as I know there never has been a audit of how the funds were used and what remained. Only some positive news, but like with the Rice Price Pledging Scheme not even a single A4 page with 'details'.

BTW a financial institution is not a bank.

  • Like 1
Posted

all his little secret bolt holes are being shut down.he will be pissed

Who are you talking about?? Are you answering a post we don't know about??blink.pngblink.png

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