Being Muslim and Gay in Thailand

[deknoiJT]

With the month of Ramadan upon us it is for myself a time of personal reflection.

Thailand is one of the most accepting countries in the world in regards to sexuality and religion.

Why do so many Western expats find the relation of being gay and Muslim so contentious? You can be Christian and Gay. You can be Jewish and Gay. You can be Buddhist and Gay.

I am gay and I decide my religious beliefs, no one else decides for me. Many Westerners that pass through my sphere believe they are entitled to offer me advice on my lifestyle and the ‘correct’ paths that I should follow. Pffft! I say to them.

I never get sexuality or religious advice from Thai people. Never!

I was born into a Muslim family in the West. My family practised Islam and so I grew up practising it also.

When some people think of Islam or a Muslim they think of the women being forced to wear Hijabs and men with long beards. Of course some Muslims are that stereotype but so many Western Muslims and Thai Muslims are not.

In Western countries many Muslims practise a less strict form of Islam, choosing less attendance at worship, hijabs that are a fashion more than a hindrance. Many younger Muslims will drink alcohol and yes of course, there are plenty of gay Muslims. Trust me on that.

I am not a Religious scholar so I can only speak for my view of Allah and my view of Islam. For me there is no rule or law against being gay and being Muslim. Like the Bible, there are thousands of different interpretations of the Quran. There are entire educational eco-systems dedicated to the debate and study and interpretation of such documents.

In Thailand I can be gay and Muslim and proud of it. I thank the Thai people for accepting my partner and me.

During your day spare a thought for all the variations life offers up to us and find acceptance in your heart for others.

[robertthebruce]

Lovely posting, ... Someone with a heart,

Enjoy your day....

[Pralaad]

The gay and Muslim does not work in western society because Muslims always make noise about westerners being dirty infidels .

Being gay and Muslim does not work because if you were gay in practicing Muslim country , you would be killed or jailed for life .

Thai people are not accepting of you, they just smile to your face, you really have no idea what is being said behind your back in both regards.

[ezzra]

Generally, discussions about gays and Muslims/Islam are thorny ones, what ever you say or what

ever you inputs are, chance are you will run foul of one critic or another not being " politically correct"

I for one says away from such controversial topics...

[Rooo]

Moved to Gay Forum.

[Ulysses G.]

"I am not a Religious scholar so I can only speak for my view of Allah and my view of Islam. For me there is no rule or law against being gay and being Muslim. Like the Bible, there are thousands of different interpretations of the Quran."

Anything can be spun dishonestly to suite one's own agenda. It sounds like you want to make up your own rules. Why not just start your own religion?

[isanbirder]

Great post, OP. It's nice to hear from someone who obviously does not fit the regrettable Western stereotype of Muslims as barbaric terrorists; a few are, but most are just people living their lives as best they can in the circumstances the world has given them.

I knew one gay Muslim in Thailand (he was actually from Singapore), and he never seemed to have any problems being both here.

I myself am a Catholic, and gay. The only opposition or criticism I get is from people who have no religion, but think they have the right to criticise those who do. Other Christians, Thai or farang, are generally accepting.

We all have the right to decide for ourselves what to believe. I would not criticise you for being Muslim, though obviously we wouldn't agree on everything!

[WitawatWatawit]

Ulysses - wrong. He is merely trying to extract a kinder, gentler Islam from the Koran.

Pralaad, perhaps you've overlooked those communities where Buddhists and Muslims have coexisted harmoniously for a very long time. People can say whatever they like behind your back, but as long as it is not manifested overtly, then life will go on.

[deknoiJT]

Moved to Gay Forum.

Why have you moved this to the Gay Forum? I am offended.

This is NOT a Gay issue, this is a discussion of tolerance in Thai society.

Really! This is what my post is all about. Being pigeon-holed as a 'Gay' or 'Muslim' by Westerners! You have pigeon holed me again by making this a Gay issue.

Just because I am gay, that does not mean I want all my discussions and postings to be universally placed in the Gay Forum. I encourage wide views and opinions.

Please move this back to General where it is most appropriate.

[Fookhaht]

I know two gay Muslims in Thailand. One is Thai-born in South Thailand and another is an expat from an ASEAN country.

They lead pretty normal lives. Not because Thailand is tolerant, but because they are discrete and a success in their careers, thus earning the respect from those around them.

[AyG]

I am gay and I decide my religious beliefs, no one else decides for me.

I was born into a Muslim family in the West. My family practised Islam and so I grew up practising it also.

Some inconsistency there. How can one's religious beliefs be a completely free choice if one has been indoctrinated since birth to believe in a particular god?

I have known a number of Moslems and Roman Catholics who have felt absolutely tortured by the conflict by the teachings of their religion and their sexuality. I strongly suspect that the world will be a better place when its peoples cast off all regions.

[Pralaad]

Ulysses - wrong. He is merely trying to extract a kinder, gentler Islam from the Koran.

Pralaad, perhaps you've overlooked those communities where Buddhists and Muslims have coexisted harmoniously for a very long time. People can say whatever they like behind your back, but as long as it is not manifested overtly, then life will go on.

And how many do not? Thailand, Sri Lanka ,Bangladesh , India , even china

[ToddWeston]

Wondeful post, thank you for sharing.

I'm fortunate I come from a country in the west (Canada) that is very tolerant of my sexuality and my Thai husband, we've been happy together for many many years and our transition to Thailand is the same as your experience -very tolerant.

We've learnt about each others religion, he being Buddhist and I being Anglican & have found there are certain times we needed our religioun to get us through the difficult patches. I'm pleased you were able to shed some insight into Islam.

Your country of birth in the West was it difficult being a Muslim gay with a Thai partner ?

[OMGImInPattaya]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

[ToddWeston]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

Feel better name calling someone's beliefs childish ?

I'm glad you like pigs but somehow I don't think the OP's diet is our concern.

[Albertosez]

We'll- I've made some bad choices in my life too- but keep going !

I don't really understand the weakness of humans to be honest. I've never seen any animal that must follow or declare their religion or sexual preference. If that's your choice then just get on with it- I don't see why you need to seek support or opinions from others ......it just suggests that you are unsure ?

[Seastallion]

Moved to Gay Forum.

Why have you moved this to the Gay Forum? I am offended.

This is NOT a Gay issue, this is a discussion of tolerance in Thai society.

Really! This is what my post is all about. Being pigeon-holed as a 'Gay' or 'Muslim' by Westerners! You have pigeon holed me again by making this a Gay issue.

Just because I am gay, that does not mean I want all my discussions and postings to be universally placed in the Gay Forum. I encourage wide views and opinions.

Please move this back to General where it is most appropriate.

Yeah, it's a shame. I saw this as a refreshing reflection of tolerance too.

Forum rules prohibit discussing moderator actions, but is questioning "discussing"?

[Jingthing]

Of course you can be gay and Muslim. Of course there are casual and secular Muslims. But in my view a person would be in a real schizophrenic bind being a FUNDAMENTALIST of ANY Abrahamic religion (Judaism the first, Christianity, or Islam) and also being a self identified gay person. That really doesn't work. I encountered a Muslim Malay in KL who of course was in a deep closet who led pilgrimage tours to Mecca. How does that work? I think it doesn't work. In my view this man was suffering severe emotional pain because he was putting these two important parts of his life in BOXES. In my view, this man was making himself sick ... but he was also clearly under a lot of social and family pressure and probably validly thought he had no choice to live an open gay life, so his society was making him suffer too.

I also think for those born Muslim part of it is religious and part of it is about their cultural identity. People are complex. One can choose to be totally or somewhat secular (in countries that aren't heavily theocratic) and also choose to treasure one's personal cultural background. For many that cultural background is an Islamic one just as mine is a (secular) Jewish one.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Jingthing

[Naam]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

what about dumping dumb opinions presented by irrelevant and childish remarks?

[Jingthing]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

As an atheist, I am with you on this although one shouldn't each too much bacon. Focus on healthy fats instead like avocado, almonds, and olive oil. However, I don't think religious people welcome being confronted and insulted any more than atheists welcome rude evangelists. Freedom of religion should OF COURSE include freedom of NO RELIGION!

[Naam]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

As an atheist, I am with you on this although one shouldn't each too much bacon. Focus on healthy fats instead like avocado, almonds, and olive oil. However, I don't think religious people welcome being confronted and insulted any more than atheists welcome rude evangelists. Freedom of religion should OF COURSE include freedom of NO RELIGION!

slightly off topic... quite often i have read postings in which TV-members claim to be "atheists". not once the expression agnostic was used. that's why my specific question to you JT "are you an atheist or agnostic?"

[Jingthing]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

As an atheist, I am with you on this although one shouldn't each too much bacon. Focus on healthy fats instead like avocado, almonds, and olive oil. However, I don't think religious people welcome being confronted and insulted any more than atheists welcome rude evangelists. Freedom of religion should OF COURSE include freedom of NO RELIGION!

slightly off topic... quite often i have read postings in which TV-members claim to be "atheists". not once the expression agnostic was used. that's why my specific question to you JT "are you an atheist or agnostic?"

I consider myself non-dogmatic atheist.

I think religion is part of human nature to make death more acceptable and as a powerful tool of social control, but the more intellectually advanced of us modern people can overcome that weakness. I have no personal problem with TOLERANT religious people and also agnostics. Agnostics are similar to bisexuals in a way, don't you think?

From 4:00

Edited June 27, 2014 by Jingthing

[AyG]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

As an atheist, I am with you on this although one shouldn't each too much bacon. Focus on healthy fats instead like avocado, almonds, and olive oil. However, I don't think religious people welcome being confronted and insulted any more than atheists welcome rude evangelists. Freedom of religion should OF COURSE include freedom of NO RELIGION!

Why should there be freedom of religion? Teaching children when they're most impressionable that there's some sky wizard who meddles in their lives and hates them if they love someone of the same sex is nothing short of child abuse.

There is no god. There never has been any evidence of a god or gods. People who believe otherwise are simply deluding themselves. And I believe it's the responsibility of those who understand this to challenge the beliefs of followers of the invisible (and non-existent) puppet master, even though this may cause some offence. So to write "dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief" is a kindness, wanting to encourage someone to question what they believe, but is ultimately a societal lie.

[deknoiJT]

I strongly suspect that the world will be a better place when its peoples cast off all regions.

My dear man, I do believe that this is the very thing ASEAN is attempting to do.

[deknoiJT]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

what about dumping dumb opinions presented by irrelevant and childish remarks?

What is this obsession some people have with Muslims and Pork!!!?

I am reminded of a story from many years past. A university pal of mine was dating his childhood sweetheart. She was a truly sweet and innocent country gal. On occasion, my pal behaved abominably towards her. The belittlements and bullying always centred around meat.

For you see, the sweet and innocent country gal was a vergetarian. Oh, the apparent crime of choosing not to eat meat!

When we ate out for dinner as a group or at each other's house, he would inevitably order a meat dish of some sort. Steak was usually somewhere in the frame. At these times my pal always had the need to tell his girlfriend how good meat tasted, even holding the meat up to her face with his fork and making 'yum yum yum' sound effects, telling her she was missing out on this great tasting food.

Why was my pal so threatened by a vegetarian? His GF accepted his meat eating, why could he not accept her vegetarianism?

Whenever I hear the 'Pork' comment I am reminded of this story. Why do the actions of others bother some people so very very much?

[Naam]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

As an atheist, I am with you on this although one shouldn't each too much bacon. Focus on healthy fats instead like avocado, almonds, and olive oil. However, I don't think religious people welcome being confronted and insulted any more than atheists welcome rude evangelists. Freedom of religion should OF COURSE include freedom of NO RELIGION!

Why should there be freedom of religion? Teaching children when they're most impressionable that there's some sky wizard who meddles in their lives and hates them if they love someone of the same sex is nothing short of child abuse.

There is no god. There never has been any evidence of a god or gods. People who believe otherwise are simply deluding themselves. And I believe it's the responsibility of those who understand this to challenge the beliefs of followers of the invisible (and non-existent) puppet master, even though this may cause some offence. So to write "dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief" is a kindness, wanting to encourage someone to question what they believe, but is ultimately a societal lie.

and of course you will submit a bundle of scientific evidence to prove your claim. we are waiting...

[deknoiJT]

I consider myself non-dogmatic atheist.

Sir, I applaud your terminology

Agnostics are similar to bisexuals in a way, don't you think?

Not the same at all in my opinion.

Agnostics merely sit on the fence, scared of commitment to either faith or non faith. The nature of belief is you must choose one or the other.

Being bisexual means it is not an either/or situation. You can have your cake and eat it too. Bisexuals have declared their sexuality, have made their choice in life.

[Naam]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

As an atheist, I am with you on this although one shouldn't each too much bacon. Focus on healthy fats instead like avocado, almonds, and olive oil. However, I don't think religious people welcome being confronted and insulted any more than atheists welcome rude evangelists. Freedom of religion should OF COURSE include freedom of NO RELIGION!

slightly off topic... quite often i have read postings in which TV-members claim to be "atheists". not once the expression agnostic was used. that's why my specific question to you JT "are you an atheist or agnostic?"

I consider myself non-dogmatic atheist.

I think religion is part of human nature to make death more acceptable and as a powerful tool of social control, but the more intellectually advanced of us modern people can overcome that weakness. I have no personal problem with TOLERANT religious people and also agnostics. Agnostics are similar to bisexuals in a way, don't you think?

From 4:00

no JT, agnostics are not sort of/kinda bisexual but straight thinking tolerant people who don't argue whether one (ore more) God exist or don't. they neither lecture other people nor do they criticise their beliefs.

note: i admire your word creation "non-dogmatic atheist" even though i could easily argue the case that a non-dogmatic atheist does not exist and the expression is an oxymoron.

[OMGImInPattaya]

Dump your childish beliefs in the supernatural and embrace non-belief. And bacon is delicious by the way!

Feel better name calling someone's beliefs childish ?

I'm glad you like pigs but somehow I don't think the OP's diet is our concern.

The gay thing is great but the religious thing is just whack! If the op had any reasoning skills, you would think he might notice the contradiction in his own personal situation. Every major Muslim religious authority in the world has declared that Allah has told them there is no such thing as "gay." Our nice "Muslim" op has said he's gay (and I'm assuming this his lived experience and not some theoretical construct). So what is the more authentic and real experience and deserving of belief?

[AyG]

and of course you will submit a bundle of scientific evidence to prove your claim. we are waiting...

It's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. And people are prepared to believe in all sorts of things that don't exist: fairies, angels, ghosts, eskimos, leprachauns, the Bermuda triangle, bigfoot, yeti and so forth. And it's just the same with their gods. People's ability to self-delude is staggering.

The onus is upon those that believe in these things to provide they do exist when all rational logic leads to the conclusion they don't.