US prepared to broker Gaza ceasefire, says Obama

[Ulysses G.]

First you ask for specific examples of how Israel fits into the US strategic interest, but when I provide them, you completely ignore the points and then attack the source. Why don't you address those points that you said I could not include ? There are a number of them. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

 

 

The conventional thinking on these issues is that there are two approaches to a problem like this:

 

1.   Military

2.   Political

 

In the case of Hamas the military solution is to closely related to the political solution.   

I don't get what you are saying.

Currently, Hamas is losing the war, but israel is losing the propaganda battle, and where the people go, western politicians must eventually follow.

 

I am not 100% sure of what I am saying either, but if the Israeli politicians decide to stop fighting they can tell the Israeli military to stop and they will.   In Hamas I am not sure who controls the militant wing and who is responsible for any political settlement.   The power structure seems a little nebulous with Hamas.   

 

 

There are a few splits in Hamas leadership and control structure - military and political wings, leadership in the Gaza Strip and abroad. The usual way they try to do things is by reaching some sort of consensus between various powers, and until this is reached, things can drag on for quite a while. In theory, the military wing is subordinate (or something pretty similar) to the political wing, but actual control and obedience has to do with identity of individual leaders. The Gaza Strip vs. abroad leadership balance of power is trickier.
 

[up-country_sinclair]

First you ask for specific examples of how Israel fits into the US strategic interest, but when I provide them, you completely ignore the points and then attack the source. Why don't you address those points that you said I could not include ? There are a number of them.

 

If there truly are a number of them, you can list them for all to see.  Because what I primarily saw was the Israeli ambassador to the US repeatedly saying that Israel is an ally of the US..  The backstop seems to be alleged importance of  Israel's geographic location.  Well, that may have been true 30 years ago, but not so much anymore.  When the world changes, so do alliances. 

 

[Morch]

 

 

 

The conventional thinking on these issues is that there are two approaches to a problem like this:
 
1.   Military
2.   Political
 
In the case of Hamas the military solution is to closely related to the political solution.   

I don't get what you are saying.
Currently, Hamas is losing the war, but israel is losing the propaganda battle, and where the people go, western politicians must eventually follow.
 

I am not 100% sure of what I am saying either, but if the Israeli politicians decide to stop fighting they can tell the Israeli military to stop and they will.   In Hamas I am not sure who controls the militant wing and who is responsible for any political settlement.   The power structure seems a little nebulous with Hamas.   

I'm not sure Netanyahu will agree to a ceasefire, 86.5% of Israelis want to finish off Hamas, so he either follows overwhelming public opinion or he believes yet another guarantee from Kerry and the moving red line. I could be wrong, but I believe Hamas have gone too far now and they will now be dismantled, which contrary to widely held belief would IMHO be a good thing for the Palestinians in the long run.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/07/27/israel-vs-hamas-ready-not/




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

Playing the public sentiment is easy.  What happens a day after Hamas is "finished off"? Who takes over?

 

Israel - is not really interested in re-occupation of the Gaza Strip. Egypt - won't go back there either, even if there was any legal/diplomatic way this could be a reality.  The PA - could, but would they risk being seen as collaborators with Israel?

Alternative local leadership - not aware of any viable one that is not a much worse option than Hamas. International force - not necessarily accepted by all sides, dubious chances when it comes to security issues.

 

[up-country_sinclair]

The Ultimate Ally

 

 

 

Israel is the ultimate ally of the US?  Really?

 

OK, let's take a look at how the US is being treated by its ultimate ally:

 

 

US fuming over Israeli criticism of Kerry

 

The Obama administration pushed back strongly Monday at a torrent of Israeli criticism over Secretary of State John Kerry's latest bid to secure a cease-fire with Hamas, accusing some in Israel of launching a "misinformation campaign" against the top American diplomat.

 

"It's simply not the way partners and allies treat each other," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.

 

Her comments were echoed by the White House, where National Security Adviser Susan Rice said the U.S. was "dismayed" by mischaracterizations of Kerry's efforts.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/us-fuming-over-israeli-criticism-kerry-154747943--politics.html

 

A "misinformation campaign" that has left the US National Security Adviser "dismayed".

 

With friends like Israel, who needs enemies?

Edited July 29, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Jingthing]

It's no secret that Obama has not been very popular in Israel. As far as Kerry, while I have admired the man in the past, I agree with Israeli public opinion, he just doesn't have the right stuff for this job at this time. Not sure how much of that is because he works for Obama, or what ...  Israel could certainly be more diplomatic about this though ... 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

It's no secret that Obama has not been very popular in Israel.

 

This is precisely the problem.  It's a "Bizarro World" (Superman reference) representation of how the US / Israeli relationship should be.

 

It shouldn't matter one whit whether or not President Obama is popular in Israel.  In a rational world, it would be Netanyahu who would be trying to curry favor on bended knee with the US President and US citizenry. 

 

But AIPAC is quite clever and for the time being has figured out how to game the system.

[Ulysses G.]

With friends like Israel, who needs enemies?

When it comes to national security, friends sometimes have to disagree. Even the liberal rag Haaretz, thought that completely adopting the positions presented by the Turkish and Qatari foreign ministers negotiating on behalf of Hamas was idiotic. Jon Stewart was amazed that the Israel cabinet unanimously rejected Kerrys proposal "because Jews dont usually agree 100 percent on anything!"
The Palestinian Authority are POed too.


The cease-fire draft U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry presented to Israel on Friday evening contained practically no mention of Israel's security needs or of demilitarizing the Gaza Strip of rockets and heavy weaponry or of the need of destroying the terror tunnels linking Gaza to Israeli territory, according to a draft of the document obtained by Haaretz, revealed here for the first time.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.607379# Edited July 29, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

I don't get what you are saying.
Currently, Hamas is losing the war, but israel is losing the propaganda battle, and where the people go, western politicians must eventually follow.
 

I am not 100% sure of what I am saying either, but if the Israeli politicians decide to stop fighting they can tell the Israeli military to stop and they will.   In Hamas I am not sure who controls the militant wing and who is responsible for any political settlement.   The power structure seems a little nebulous with Hamas.   

I'm not sure Netanyahu will agree to a ceasefire, 86.5% of Israelis want to finish off Hamas, so he either follows overwhelming public opinion or he believes yet another guarantee from Kerry and the moving red line. I could be wrong, but I believe Hamas have gone too far now and they will now be dismantled, which contrary to widely held belief would IMHO be a good thing for the Palestinians in the long run.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/07/27/israel-vs-hamas-ready-not/




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

Playing the public sentiment is easy.  What happens a day after Hamas is "finished off"? Who takes over?

 

Israel - is not really interested in re-occupation of the Gaza Strip. Egypt - won't go back there either, even if there was any legal/diplomatic way this could be a reality.  The PA - could, but would they risk being seen as collaborators with Israel?

Alternative local leadership - not aware of any viable one that is not a much worse option than Hamas. International force - not necessarily accepted by all sides, dubious chances when it comes to security issues.

 

 

 

My guess would be the PA, while raising their aggressive tones & propaganda against Israel for a short while, just to avoid being seen as collaborators with Israel. Just a guess, as I don't see any other more viable choices.

But as they say, prophecy was given for fools.

[Steely Dan]

[quote name="Morch" post="8169206" timestamp="1406644596"][quote name="Steely Dan" post="8167679" timestamp="1406628348"] [quote name="Credo" post="8166649" timestamp="1406614209"] [quote name="thaibeachlovers" post="8166601" timestamp="1406613575"] [quote name="Credo" post="8166562" timestamp="1406613052"]The conventional thinking on these issues is that there are two approaches to a problem like this:
 
1.   Military
2.   Political
 
In the case of Hamas the military solution is to closely related to the political solution.   [/quote]I don't get what you are saying.
Currently, Hamas is losing the war, but israel is losing the propaganda battle, and where the people go, western politicians must eventually follow.
 [/quote]I am not 100% sure of what I am saying either, but if the Israeli politicians decide to stop fighting they can tell the Israeli military to stop and they will.   In Hamas I am not sure who controls the militant wing and who is responsible for any political settlement.   The power structure seems a little nebulous with Hamas.   [/quote]
I'm not sure Netanyahu will agree to a ceasefire, 86.5% of Israelis want to finish off Hamas, so he either follows overwhelming public opinion or he believes yet another guarantee from Kerry and the moving red line. I could be wrong, but I believe Hamas have gone too far now and they will now be dismantled, which contrary to widely held belief would IMHO be a good thing for the Palestinians in the long run.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/07/27/israel-vs-hamas-ready-not/




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand
 [/quote]
 
Playing the public sentiment is easy.  What happens a day after Hamas is "finished off"? Who takes over?
 
Israel - is not really interested in re-occupation of the Gaza Strip. Egypt - won't go back there either, even if there was any legal/diplomatic way this could be a reality.  The PA - could, but would they risk being seen as collaborators with Israel?
Alternative local leadership - not aware of any viable one that is not a much worse option than Hamas. International force - not necessarily accepted by all sides, dubious chances when it comes to security issues.
 [/quote]
Shouldn't elected politicians carry out the will of the people who elected them? Actually there is one PA leader, the economist chap who wants a two state solution and pursued the Arafats for corruption who would do very nicely. IMHO the missiles and tunnels are the symptom, religious fundamentalism and indoctrination is the underlying cause, peace is a pipe dream until this issue is faced


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[simple1]

It's no secret that Obama has not been very popular in Israel. As far as Kerry, while I have admired the man in the past, I agree with Israeli public opinion, he just doesn't have the right stuff for this job at this time. Not sure how much of that is because he works for Obama, or what ...  Israel could certainly be more diplomatic about this though ... 

 

Read a one liner today regards Kerry- "physical presence of a geopolitical absence ". Simplistic, but do you or others agree with the sentiment?

 

[Steely Dan]

It's no secret that Obama has not been very popular in Israel. As far as Kerry, while I have admired the man in the past, I agree with Israeli public opinion, he just doesn't have the right stuff for this job at this time. Not sure how much of that is because he works for Obama, or what ...  Israel could certainly be more diplomatic about this though ... 

 
Read a one liner today regards Kerry- "physical presence of a geopolitical absence ". Simplistic, but do you or others agree with the sentiment?
 

Like it! The walking vacuum.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[thaibeachlovers]

The tunnels into Israel were a bridge too far. Israel must finish the job.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Do you actually belive that once this battle ( in a war that will last generations ) is over, they will not just dig more tunnels?

[thaibeachlovers]

 

 

 

The conventional thinking on these issues is that there are two approaches to a problem like this:
 
1.   Military
2.   Political
 
In the case of Hamas the military solution is to closely related to the political solution.   

I don't get what you are saying.
Currently, Hamas is losing the war, but israel is losing the propaganda battle, and where the people go, western politicians must eventually follow.
 

I am not 100% sure of what I am saying either, but if the Israeli politicians decide to stop fighting they can tell the Israeli military to stop and they will.   In Hamas I am not sure who controls the militant wing and who is responsible for any political settlement.   The power structure seems a little nebulous with Hamas.   

I'm not sure Netanyahu will agree to a ceasefire, 86.5% of Israelis want to finish off Hamas, so he either follows overwhelming public opinion or he believes yet another guarantee from Kerry and the moving red line. I could be wrong, but I believe Hamas have gone too far now and they will now be dismantled, which contrary to widely held belief would IMHO be a good thing for the Palestinians in the long run.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/07/27/israel-vs-hamas-ready-not/




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

You are looking from a short term perspective. As this war will last for generations if israel does not agree to a free Palestinian state, even if every last Hamas soldier is killed off ( unlikely ) it will just be replaced, probably by something worse.

Obama boasted that al qaida was defeated, but ISIL came back to show the folly of his words. It is so bad, even al qaida has disowned them.

[thaibeachlovers]

It's no secret that Obama has not been very popular in Israel. As far as Kerry, while I have admired the man in the past, I agree with Israeli public opinion, he just doesn't have the right stuff for this job at this time. Not sure how much of that is because he works for Obama, or what ...  Israel could certainly be more diplomatic about this though ... 

Given that Kerry has recently claimed to have NEVER voted aginst israel in Congress, he has just made himself irrelevant as a mediator. What Palestian would trust him now?

[thaibeachlovers]

[quote name="Steely Dan" post="8167679" timestamp="1406628348"] [quote name="Credo" post="8166649" timestamp="1406614209"] [quote name="thaibeachlovers" post="8166601" timestamp="1406613575"] [quote name="Credo" post="8166562" timestamp="1406613052"]The conventional thinking on these issues is that there are two approaches to a problem like this:
 
1.   Military
2.   Political
 
In the case of Hamas the military solution is to closely related to the political solution.   [/quote]I don't get what you are saying.
Currently, Hamas is losing the war, but israel is losing the propaganda battle, and where the people go, western politicians must eventually follow.
 [/quote]I am not 100% sure of what I am saying either, but if the Israeli politicians decide to stop fighting they can tell the Israeli military to stop and they will.   In Hamas I am not sure who controls the militant wing and who is responsible for any political settlement.   The power structure seems a little nebulous with Hamas.   [/quote]
I'm not sure Netanyahu will agree to a ceasefire, 86.5% of Israelis want to finish off Hamas, so he either follows overwhelming public opinion or he believes yet another guarantee from Kerry and the moving red line. I could be wrong, but I believe Hamas have gone too far now and they will now be dismantled, which contrary to widely held belief would IMHO be a good thing for the Palestinians in the long run.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/07/27/israel-vs-hamas-ready-not/




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand
 [/quote]
 
Playing the public sentiment is easy.  What happens a day after Hamas is "finished off"? Who takes over?
 
Israel - is not really interested in re-occupation of the Gaza Strip. Egypt - won't go back there either, even if there was any legal/diplomatic way this could be a reality.  The PA - could, but would they risk being seen as collaborators with Israel?
Alternative local leadership - not aware of any viable one that is not a much worse option than Hamas. International force - not necessarily accepted by all sides, dubious chances when it comes to security issues.
 

Shouldn't elected politicians carry out the will of the people who elected them? Actually there is one PA leader, the economist chap who wants a two state solution and pursued the Arafats for corruption who would do very nicely. IMHO the missiles and tunnels are the symptom, religious fundamentalism and indoctrination is the underlying cause, peace is a pipe dream until this issue is faced


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

< International force>

What country would be insane enough to take on that job?

However, I'd like to see the UN ignore the inevitable US veto and impose a two state solution based on the 1948 borders ( the only legal ones, as that was what the UN gave israel in 1948 ), then send troops to enforce it ( including removal of all the settlements from the west bank ). Dreaming, I know.

[Ulysses G.]

However, I'd like to see the UN ignore the inevitable US veto

They CAN'T ignore the US veto, but fantasize away.

[Ulysses G.]

 

The tunnels into Israel were a bridge too far. Israel must finish the job.
 

Do you actually belive that once this battle ( in a war that will last generations ) is over, they will not just dig more tunnels?

 

 

 

Egypt considers Hamas to be enemies as they have caused problems across the border. They will prevent them from rearming and the blockade will do the rest. Hamas  will continue with the terrorism,but will likely be far less effective.

[Jingthing]

It's a temporary measure until the next war. Forces on both sides make peace unlikely in the enforceable future but for time being Israel is totally justified to defend their nation and people from forces dedicated to their destruction. 

[ggold]

 

The tunnels into Israel were a bridge too far. Israel must finish the job.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Do you actually belive that once this battle ( in a war that will last generations ) is over, they will not just dig more tunnels?

 

 

What some of you don't understand is that Hamas are finished, Not because of what Israel is doing but because of what hamas are doing to themselves. They are fighting for political survival from the PA and from Egypt. Their desire to continue fighting unless the siege is lifted is a suicidal move. They show they do not care for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip by not allowing for even a Humanitarian cease fire without breaking the truce.

 

They have called for Hezbolah to attack from Lebanon. They are really hoping that the Arabs will rise up against Israel and commit mass suicide! Israel has been restrained throughout this latest conflict. If they had taken the gloves off this would have been over two weeks ago.

[Jingthing]

It's a temporary measure until the next war. Forces on both sides make peace unlikely in the enforceable future but for time being Israel is totally justified to defend their nation and people from forces dedicated to their destruction. 

Need to correct this. Spell checker error made the word enforceable but of course I meant foreseeable.  

[thaibeachlovers]

 

 

The tunnels into Israel were a bridge too far. Israel must finish the job.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Do you actually belive that once this battle ( in a war that will last generations ) is over, they will not just dig more tunnels?

 

 

What some of you don't understand is that Hamas are finished, Not because of what Israel is doing but because of what hamas are doing to themselves. They are fighting for political survival from the PA and from Egypt. Their desire to continue fighting unless the siege is lifted is a suicidal move. They show they do not care for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip by not allowing for even a Humanitarian cease fire without breaking the truce.

 

They have called for Hezbolah to attack from Lebanon. They are really hoping that the Arabs will rise up against Israel and commit mass suicide! Israel has been restrained throughout this latest conflict. If they had taken the gloves off this would have been over two weeks ago.

 

It doesn't matter if Hamas survives. If the Palestinians continue to live in the prison that is Gaza and have no hope, another similar, or worse, organisation will take their place. Look to the 600 years of the Irish fighting England to see what the future holds.

[thaibeachlovers]

It's a temporary measure until the next war. Forces on both sides make peace unlikely in the enforceable future but for time being Israel is totally justified to defend their nation and people from forces dedicated to their destruction. 

I am not disputing that, but it is a fact that every day the conflict continues, more enemies are created that will attack israel in the future.

[Jingthing]

 

It's a temporary measure until the next war. Forces on both sides make peace unlikely in the enforceable future but for time being Israel is totally justified to defend their nation and people from forces dedicated to their destruction. 

I am not disputing that, but it is a fact that every day the conflict continues, more enemies are created that will attack israel in the future.

 

I agree. But it goes both ways. That latest tunnel thing from Gaza has indeed turned a lot of more potentially moderate Israelis to the right. There has to be political will on both sides to have a hope of peace, and yes, the obvious lack of willingness to accept Israel existing at all from Hamas really IS a big deal to Israel. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Jingthing

[ggold]

 

 

 

The tunnels into Israel were a bridge too far. Israel must finish the job.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Do you actually belive that once this battle ( in a war that will last generations ) is over, they will not just dig more tunnels?

 

 

What some of you don't understand is that Hamas are finished, Not because of what Israel is doing but because of what hamas are doing to themselves. They are fighting for political survival from the PA and from Egypt. Their desire to continue fighting unless the siege is lifted is a suicidal move. They show they do not care for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip by not allowing for even a Humanitarian cease fire without breaking the truce.

 

They have called for Hezbolah to attack from Lebanon. They are really hoping that the Arabs will rise up against Israel and commit mass suicide! Israel has been restrained throughout this latest conflict. If they had taken the gloves off this would have been over two weeks ago.

 

It doesn't matter if Hamas survives. If the Palestinians continue to live in the prison that is Gaza and have no hope, another similar, or worse, organisation will take their place. Look to the 600 years of the Irish fighting England to see what the future holds.

 

 

Well if they keep on electing Hamas type groups they will continue to live in a prison. Which them begs the question do the Palestinians really want peace?

 

[Jingthing]

Well if they keep on electing Hamas type groups they will continue to live in a prison. Which them begs the question do the Palestinians really want peace?

 

 

They clearly want peace just as soon as they scare away and kill all the Jews in Israel. Then they can find some different flavor of Muslims to want to scare and away and kill. Like their Muslim neighbors. Like the world doesn't seem to care about. Only for some mysterious reason when JEWS have a conflict with Muslims does the world seem to care. Muslims vs. Muslims ... never mind!

Edited July 30, 2014 by Jingthing

[ggold]

 

Well if they keep on electing Hamas type groups they will continue to live in a prison. Which them begs the question do the Palestinians really want peace?

 

 

They clearly want peace just as soon as they scare away and kill all the Jews in Israel. Then they can find some different flavor of Muslims to want to scare and away and kill. Like their Muslim neighbors. Like the world doesn't seem to care about. Only for some mysterious reason when JEWS have a conflict with Muslims does the world seem to care. Muslims vs. Muslims ... never mind!

 

 

I think this explains it! From the Jerusalem Post

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2014 by ggold

[simple1]

 

Well if they keep on electing Hamas type groups they will continue to live in a prison. Which them begs the question do the Palestinians really want peace?

 

 

They clearly want peace just as soon as they scare away and kill all the Jews in Israel. Then they can find some different flavor of Muslims to want to scare and away and kill. Like their Muslim neighbors. Like the world doesn't seem to care about. Only for some mysterious reason when JEWS have a conflict with Muslims does the world seem to care. Muslims vs. Muslims ... never mind!

 

 

JT, in a number of posts you have acknowledged there are wrongs on posts sides on the conflict. My take is many hold Israel to a higher degree of responsibility due to its self proclaimed status as a  democratic state and military professionalism; that is normally accepted. With the significant, so called collateral damage, of civilian deaths and injuries it does raise many questions. We can all go around and around on this matter, but to me personally it is not a proportional response by Israel. What's the Hamas membership of the armed wing, 25K? Yet figures released by Mier Amit indicate around 300 militants killed out of the roughly 1200 killed to date. So far relatively low numbers of militants killed, for goodness sake stop attacking densely populated urban targets.

 

Concerning your comment on Muslim vs Muslim killings. You are right, sadly the democratic world generally doesn't give a damn, unless there is a possibilty of affecting regional Western strategic interests.

[simple1]

 

 

Well if they keep on electing Hamas type groups they will continue to live in a prison. Which them begs the question do the Palestinians really want peace?

 

 

They clearly want peace just as soon as they scare away and kill all the Jews in Israel. Then they can find some different flavor of Muslims to want to scare and away and kill. Like their Muslim neighbors. Like the world doesn't seem to care about. Only for some mysterious reason when JEWS have a conflict with Muslims does the world seem to care. Muslims vs. Muslims ... never mind!

 

 

I think this explains it! From the Jerusalem Post

 

 

 

 

 

That is an insult by JP, nearly all Western reporting agencies have pulled out of Syria due to the deliberate killing of journalists

Edited July 31, 2014 by simple1

[dexterm]

 

 

It's a temporary measure until the next war. Forces on both sides make peace unlikely in the enforceable future but for time being Israel is totally justified to defend their nation and people from forces dedicated to their destruction. 

I am not disputing that, but it is a fact that every day the conflict continues, more enemies are created that will attack israel in the future.

 

I agree. But it goes both ways. That latest tunnel thing from Gaza has indeed turned a lot of more potentially moderate Israelis to the right. There has to be political will on both sides to have a hope of peace, and yes, the obvious lack of willingness to accept Israel existing at all from Hamas really IS a big deal to Israel. 

 

 

 

This is repeated misinformation. It is Israel who refuses to accept Hamas as a partner in peace.

 

Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and recognition of Israel in its 1967 borders

 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915