Israel is using a sledgehammer to crack nuts

[kblaze]

As far as I know, Netanyahu is open to a two-state solution if the Palestinians agree to, sign and stick to a peace treaty - which they have refused repeatedly up till now - and so am I. The Israelis have traded land for peace before. 

 

When speaking to the US or the West he won't shoot down the idea. When speaking in Hebrew he is very different.

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/

[simple1]

 

Does the cartoon represent a consensus of opinion within the Palestinian population?

 
I have no idea, but that illustration was on Fatah's website, so there is a pretty good chance that it represents a consensus of Fatah's opinion which is the point of my post.

 

 

Appears to be a reasonable review of the dissent within Fatah leadership & pressure on Abbas.

 

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/palestine-qatar-nominates-rajoub-abbas-president.html

[Ulysses G.]

 

As far as I know, Netanyahu is open to a two-state solution if the Palestinians agree to, sign and stick to a peace treaty - which they have refused repeatedly up till now - and so am I. The Israelis have traded land for peace before. 

 

When speaking to the US or the West he won't shoot down the idea. When speaking in Hebrew he is very different.

 

 

 

Really. Seems like pure speculation to me. 

The whole article is based around one sentence that has been Netanyahu's position for years: “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.” 

Everyone knows this is Netanyahu's position. Is he taking a hard line for negotiations or does he have some other solution for security control? Obama knows his position. Kerry knows it.  Abbas knows it and none of them thinks that this makes Netanyahu not serious about a two-state solution. They are the ones who should know. 

[pastafarian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRO1YFreNA

[Ulysses G.]

"The evidence that we have indicates that the killers of the three teenagers 'were Israelis'"

Another loony, YouTube, conspiracy theory video. What utter nonsense. Gee thanks. 

Edited July 16, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

 

 

Does the cartoon represent a consensus of opinion within the Palestinian population?

 
I have no idea, but that illustration was on Fatah's website, so there is a pretty good chance that it represents a consensus of Fatah's opinion which is the point of my post.

 

 

Appears to be a reasonable review of the dissent within Fatah leadership & pressure on Abbas.

 

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/palestine-qatar-nominates-rajoub-abbas-president.html

 

 

Last sentence of the article sums things quite well:

 

 

“The Palestinian situation is like quicksand. Every day, there is a new development, so let us wait; we must not rule out or anticipate anything.”

 

[Morch]

 

 

As far as I know, Netanyahu is open to a two-state solution if the Palestinians agree to, sign and stick to a peace treaty - which they have refused repeatedly up till now - and so am I. The Israelis have traded land for peace before. 

 

When speaking to the US or the West he won't shoot down the idea. When speaking in Hebrew he is very different.

 

 

 

Really. Seems like pure speculation to me. 

The whole article is based around one sentence that has been Netanyahu's position for years: “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.” 

Everyone knows this is Netanyahu's position. Is he taking a hard line for negotiations or does he have some other solution for security control? Obama knows his position. Kerry knows it.  Abbas knows it and none of them thinks that this makes Netanyahu not serious about a two-state solution. They are the ones who should know. 

 

 

UG, not sure how much you follow Netanyahu's domestic ramblings, but he most definitely speaks differently on these issues depending on crowd. And there is a marked difference in his rhetoric when switching between English and Hebrew. 

This double talk thing is not limited to the Palestinians, but evident on most topics - economy, domestic politics and other social issues to do with Israel.

 

The Image of being a tough negotiator is a sham. Mostly hot air and big talk, which sort of turn into naught. Same happened last time there was fighting with Hamas, same happened to his stance of not trading terrorists, and the list goes on.

 

When you say everyone knows Netanyahu's position, well, yes - he sure makes it known. But he's known to fold under credible pressure. The current USA administration, under current terms - does not pose that much of a credible pressure.  Abbas and the PA sure aren't, the Hamas same. If there's anyone Netanyahu takes heed of, outside of Israel's domestic politics (which play more part in this than many posters seem to be aware), it would be el-Sisi. The last thing on the to do list of Israel right now is to mess things up on that front.
 

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.   A false-flag conspiracy has been presented.   I don't think it needs further discussion.  

 

 

[ggold]

 

"The evidence that we have indicates that the killers of the three teenagers 'were Israelis'"

Another loony, YouTube, conspiracy theory video. What utter nonsense. Gee thanks. 

 

No, just a viable alternative to the mainstream media that most people get their 'news' from.

 

Folk like Mossad have done much worse than murder a few teenage kids to ignite situations in the past, it wouldn't surprise me!
 

 

 

IT very conveniently leaves out the fact that Palestinians can speak Hebrew as well as Israeli's. To suggest it is a viable alternative to mainstream media is a joke when it is plainly propaganda for a conspiracy within Israel.  

 

An attempt by Arab or Arab sympathisers to deflect the fact that Hamas use their own population as a human shields. To suggest Israel would kill it's own youth to further their cause in Gaza against Hamas is an insult at worst and laughable at best.

[ggold]

 

 

As far as I know, Netanyahu is open to a two-state solution if the Palestinians agree to, sign and stick to a peace treaty - which they have refused repeatedly up till now - and so am I. The Israelis have traded land for peace before. 

 

When speaking to the US or the West he won't shoot down the idea. When speaking in Hebrew he is very different.

 

 

 

Really. Seems like pure speculation to me. 

The whole article is based around one sentence that has been Netanyahu's position for years: “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.” 

Everyone knows this is Netanyahu's position. Is he taking a hard line for negotiations or does he have some other solution for security control? Obama knows his position. Kerry knows it.  Abbas knows it and none of them thinks that this makes Netanyahu not serious about a two-state solution. They are the ones who should know. 

 

 

What Netanyahu means is, that even with a Palestinian entity in the west bank, Israel will control the boarder with Jordan and the West bank, by maintaining a military presence along that boarder. He will not let the Palestinians control that boarder. 

 

[dexterm]

 

 

The Zionist movement (which started well before 1948) is inclusive of both religious and secular Jews. Israel is the manifestation of the Zionist movement ... a homeland for the Jewish PEOPLE. 

 

Judaism is a religion not a race. Jews share every shade of DNA from fair haired blue eyed Russian Jews to jet black Ethiopian falashas.

 

In the 21^st century you can’t steal someone else’s land based on the belief in a popular book of fiction and hearing voices from imaginary supernatural friends telling you the land belongs to you.

 

In 1850 there were 14,000 Jews (4%) mainly in Jerusalem living peacefully alongside 334,000 Palestinians.

In 2014 there are 6 million Jews and 1.6 million Palestinians living in Israel..and 5 million Palestinian refugees outside Israel

 

Go figure who are the land robbers!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

 

 

I just used the "find" feature on all three of your links. NOT ONCE does any of them mention "Palestinians" until after WWII.

 

EVERY TIME they mention "Palestine" with any specificity, they call it a "region." And a region it has been for thousands of years and it included parts of several countries.

 

There NEVER WAS a country called "Palestine" nor a people called "Palestinians" until Arabs named it all that after WWII.

 

The modern press has fallen for the charade and dutifully calls a tiny part "Palestine" and some warlike nomads "Palestinians" when in fact they are flat-out charlatans. It is historical BS. 

 

The Israelis are the ones who have a history there. Their temple which was build about 4,000 years ago is buried under a current Muslim mosque on the Temple Mount in E. Jerusalem.

 

 

What's in a name?

 

Existing inhabitants are existing inhabitants.

 

Now I think a Palestinian whose family have been farming an olive grove for centuries should have as much right to keep his farm (well more right in my mind) than a fair haired blue eyed New Yorker who has never even set eyes on the place and just because he hears voices from imaginary supernatural friends, waves an uzi in the Palestinians' face, bulldozes his home, rips up his olive grove and builds a Jewish colony there. 

 

Now that in my book is wrong.

[Pakboong]

In a feeble attempt to get back on topic.  There are many mysteries surrounding these rocket attacks. Among my favorites is why the Palestinians can't seem to smuggle some kind of surface to air capability.  Apparently they are now trying to smuggle longer range missiles to reach Tel Aviv, why no SAM capability? The Iranians are often accused of using Palestinians for a Proxy war and smuggling into Gaza, why would they not smuggle in at least Shoulder fired SAMS of which  the Iranians manufacture 2 versions. They are not the most capable but they are reasonably effective against helicopters and low flying aircraft. The Iranians manufacture over a dozen different types which are not shoulder fired and why would they not want to test them against Israeli aircraft over Gaza. Seems a lot more practical than firing bottle rockets into the desert.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Pakboong

[Morch]

 

 

 

The Zionist movement (which started well before 1948) is inclusive of both religious and secular Jews. Israel is the manifestation of the Zionist movement ... a homeland for the Jewish PEOPLE. 

 

Judaism is a religion not a race. Jews share every shade of DNA from fair haired blue eyed Russian Jews to jet black Ethiopian falashas.

 

In the 21^st century you can’t steal someone else’s land based on the belief in a popular book of fiction and hearing voices from imaginary supernatural friends telling you the land belongs to you.

 

In 1850 there were 14,000 Jews (4%) mainly in Jerusalem living peacefully alongside 334,000 Palestinians.

In 2014 there are 6 million Jews and 1.6 million Palestinians living in Israel..and 5 million Palestinian refugees outside Israel

 

Go figure who are the land robbers!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

 

 

I just used the "find" feature on all three of your links. NOT ONCE does any of them mention "Palestinians" until after WWII.

 

EVERY TIME they mention "Palestine" with any specificity, they call it a "region." And a region it has been for thousands of years and it included parts of several countries.

 

There NEVER WAS a country called "Palestine" nor a people called "Palestinians" until Arabs named it all that after WWII.

 

The modern press has fallen for the charade and dutifully calls a tiny part "Palestine" and some warlike nomads "Palestinians" when in fact they are flat-out charlatans. It is historical BS. 

 

The Israelis are the ones who have a history there. Their temple which was build about 4,000 years ago is buried under a current Muslim mosque on the Temple Mount in E. Jerusalem.

 

 

What's in a name?

 

Existing inhabitants are existing inhabitants.

 

Now I think a Palestinian whose family have been farming an olive grove for centuries should have as much right to keep his farm (well more right in my mind) than a fair haired blue eyed New Yorker who has never even set eyes on the place and just because he hears voices from imaginary supernatural friends, waves an uzi in the Palestinians' face, bulldozes his home, rips up his olive grove and builds a Jewish colony there. 

 

Now that in my book is wrong.

 

 

You are aware that most Israeli are not fair haired blue eyed New Yorker, that most of them were born in Israel, that hardly all of them are religious, that most do not carry weapons (certainly not Uzi's, that's a bit of an anachronism), that most of them would know how to drive and operate heavy machinery (let alone demolish a house), and that most are adamantly against the reaping of olive groves etc., right?

 

Then again, you are probably aware not all Palestinians are peaceful farmers, not all can trace their ancestry in the area centuries back (surnames are a tell tale), that most of them are more devout in their religion beliefs than Israelis, and that there is a rather well known insurance scam to do with destroyed olive groves (a bit less of this in recent years, as firms wised up to it), right?

 

Want to make a point about rights and wrongs, go ahead. Tends to be a better point when avoiding these sort of crude generalizations.

[simple1]

In a feeble attempt to get back on topic.  There are many mysteries surrounding these rocket attacks. Among my favorites is why the Palestinians can't seem to smuggle some kind of surface to air capability.  Apparently they are now trying to smuggle longer range missiles to reach Tel Aviv, why no SAM capability? The Iranians are often accused of using Palestinians for a Proxy war and smuggling into Gaza, why would they not smuggle in at least Shoulder fired SAMS of which  the Iranians manufacture 2 versions. They are not the most capable but they are reasonably effective against helicopters and low flying aircraft. The Iranians manufacture over a dozen different types which are not shoulder fired and why would they not want to test them against Israeli aircraft over Gaza. Seems a lot more practical than firing bottle rockets into the desert.

 

 

Hamas have anti-tank missiles

 

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/If-ordered-into-Gaza-IDF-Ground-Forces-ready-for-anti-tank-missiles-urban-combat-362978

 

Claims Hamas have limited quantities of anti-aircraft missiles

 

Israel admitted in 2012 that 10 shoulder-fired Strela anti-aircraft missiles had targeted its warplanes. 

 

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/02/gaza-hamas-qassam-aircraft-missiles-israel-strela.html

[dexterm]

 

In 1850 there were 14,000 Jews (4%) mainly in Jerusalem living peacefully alongside 334,000 Palestinians.

That was before the Arabs started attacking and murdering Jewish families on a frequent basis. Eventually the Jews started fighting back, so the UN offered both sides their own country as a solution. The Arabs said no and declared war on Israel. They were badly defeated, but still refuse to stop the violence and that is how they ended up in the pickle that have created for themselves, with no land and no country and not much hope for getting out of the downward spiral that they are in.

 

 

Well, those original 14,000 Jews must have been bloody good breeders to outnumber Palestinians 4:1 today, and in the process creating 5 million Palestinian refugees, and all the while with their backs against the wall fighting off their wicked neighbours..thank Buddha for the knee trembler!

 

The truth is that the Jewish minority lived perfectly peacefully with their Palestinian neighbours until Theodore Hertzl came along in 1896 and founded Zionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

encouraging Jewish immigration not as invited guests but with the intention of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine displacing the existing population. And they have almost succeeded. The Palestinians eventually realised what was happening and protested, but they have always had their hands tied, first by the Ottomans, then by the British mandate, then by weak corrupt Arab leadership, and now by the USA.

 

You are obviously a Zionist yourself, the Jewish or Christian Rapture variety http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism who are waiting for the Second Coming coming.

 

I suggest you educate yourself a bit more with the true history of Palestine. Try this for starters http://www.palestineremembered.com/ ..it will bust most of your bigoted myths.

 

Basically, a tremendous injustice has been done to the existing population similar to the cruel things European colonialists did in Oceania, Africa, the Americas. They did it in the 17^th-19^th centuries and got away with it. Zionists have simply left their run a bit too late. The whole world is watching this time and maybe they won’t get away with it..eventually.

 

Israel’s neighbours are a geographic reality and one day if they want to make any progress they will have to make peace with them.

 

I think Palestinians should practise passive resistance. Forget the rockets and rocks. Just record on their phone cams the daily humiliations and violence they have to endure from Israelis and saturate the social media with the images. Shame Israel before the world into a just peace. Situations such as the present only serve Israel’s interests to keep the conflict going until they can swallow up the whole West Bank. Don’t give the Israelis any excuse for more ethnic cleansing.

 

I think a 2 state solution is now impossible...less viable year by year as more land is colonized. The Pals should simply sit tight peacefully for a generation and out breed the Jews in a single state. Screw your way to victory...much more fun.

[Morch]

In a feeble attempt to get back on topic.  There are many mysteries surrounding these rocket attacks. Among my favorites is why the Palestinians can't seem to smuggle some kind of surface to air capability.  Apparently they are now trying to smuggle longer range missiles to reach Tel Aviv, why no SAM capability? The Iranians are often accused of using Palestinians for a Proxy war and smuggling into Gaza, why would they not smuggle in at least Shoulder fired SAMS of which  the Iranians manufacture 2 versions. They are not the most capable but they are reasonably effective against helicopters and low flying aircraft. The Iranians manufacture over a dozen different types which are not shoulder fired and why would they not want to test them against Israeli aircraft over Gaza. Seems a lot more practical than firing bottle rockets into the desert.

 

There aren't that many mysteries about rocket attacks. There are people who refuse to accept some facts, and insist on

simplified answers to complex issues.

 

The Palestinians do have some surface to air missiles, a couple were shot at IAF airplanes during the beginning of the 

current hostilities. The reason why they do not have more, or use them more often is that they are harder to get by, cost

more than rockets and take a wee bit more training to use properly. That's without taking into account the very intense

effort on Israel's side to specifically block this sort of thing. Also, in contrast with most rockets, SAMs are not something

that can be relatively easy to manufacture locally.

 

The Hezbollah, sponsored by Iran, does use them (and even more advanced means) in Lebanon against the IAF. This

could be chalked to better funding, being closer to the source both in terms of distance an ideology, and having better

training.

 

Not sure how they would be more practical than rockets, it like apples and oranges. And rockets are not fired into the

desert, they are fired on Israel. People live there.
 

[kblaze]

 

 

As far as I know, Netanyahu is open to a two-state solution if the Palestinians agree to, sign and stick to a peace treaty - which they have refused repeatedly up till now - and so am I. The Israelis have traded land for peace before. 

 

When speaking to the US or the West he won't shoot down the idea. When speaking in Hebrew he is very different.

 

 

 

Really. Seems like pure speculation to me. 

The whole article is based around one sentence that has been Netanyahu's position for years: “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.” 

Everyone knows this is Netanyahu's position. Is he taking a hard line for negotiations or does he have some other solution for security control? Obama knows his position. Kerry knows it.  Abbas knows it and none of them thinks that this makes Netanyahu not serious about a two-state solution. They are the ones who should know. 

 

 

Its based on what he said, not speculation on what he thinks.

 

He's not talking about borders, he uses territory

 

Here's the crux of the issue; How does a state consider itself independent if it is being "controlled" by another?  (his words not mine)

 

Are you so sure that Abbas knows Netanyahu's position?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.604560

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4293832,00.html

 

Kerry's rebuttal to the "Jewish State" mandate

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Kerry-says-Netanyahu-wrong-to-insist-Palestinians-recognize-Israel-as-Jewish-state-345341

 

I found this funny too. Though I don't read too much into it..

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/08/obama-praises-abbas-but-not-netanyahu-in-opinion-piece-published-by-israeli/

[Pakboong]

 

In a feeble attempt to get back on topic.  There are many mysteries surrounding these rocket attacks. Among my favorites is why the Palestinians can't seem to smuggle some kind of surface to air capability.  Apparently they are now trying to smuggle longer range missiles to reach Tel Aviv, why no SAM capability? The Iranians are often accused of using Palestinians for a Proxy war and smuggling into Gaza, why would they not smuggle in at least Shoulder fired SAMS of which  the Iranians manufacture 2 versions. They are not the most capable but they are reasonably effective against helicopters and low flying aircraft. The Iranians manufacture over a dozen different types which are not shoulder fired and why would they not want to test them against Israeli aircraft over Gaza. Seems a lot more practical than firing bottle rockets into the desert.

 

There aren't that many mysteries about rocket attacks. There are people who refuse to accept some facts, and insist on

simplified answers to complex issues.

 

The Palestinians do have some surface to air missiles, a couple were shot at IAF airplanes during the beginning of the 

current hostilities. The reason why they do not have more, or use them more often is that they are harder to get by, cost

more than rockets and take a wee bit more training to use properly. That's without taking into account the very intense

effort on Israel's side to specifically block this sort of thing. Also, in contrast with most rockets, SAMs are not something

that can be relatively easy to manufacture locally.

 

The Hezbollah, sponsored by Iran, does use them (and even more advanced means) in Lebanon against the IAF. This

could be chalked to better funding, being closer to the source both in terms of distance an ideology, and having better

training.

 

Not sure how they would be more practical than rockets, it like apples and oranges. And rockets are not fired into the

desert, they are fired on Israel. People live there.
 

 

No need to manufacture locally, the Iranians have many reasons to test these against against Israeli aircraft under true combat conditions.

 

As far as the practical, the Palestinians would have actual targets instead of the open desert. They clearly need to stop IAF attacks. If you are going to smuggle, spend your energy smuggling something that you really need. There is little point in smuggling a long range missile that can be easily knocked down by Iron Dome. With the SAM, the Iron Dome would not really come into play. There are other counter measures but why not shoot at something you need to hit. The Palestinians are sitting ducks against the IAF, they need to be able to at least make them work a bit harder. Given that the Qassam rockets generates IAF targets, why not go after the aircraft instead of the open desert?

 

I have never really believed that the Iranians were that active with the smuggling into Gaza but there were war cries  a couple of years ago about the Iranian threat. The Iranians would however, love to test their air defense capability if they could get this capability into Gaza. The lack of SAMs being smuggled in by the Iranians tells us critical information regarding who is doing what in this particular conflict.

 

The Irainians have reverse engineered several and come up with  a few of their own. They would jump at the chance to deploy them over Gaza. There would be no cost to Gaza.

 

[dexterm]

It has been well documented that the Jews have had a continual presence in the Palestine region for over 3,000 years. They are not exactly Johnny come latelys. 

 

The lease expired 2,000 years ago.

 

Judaism is a religion not a race. Mormons have it documented by none other than the Angel Moroni that they are the lost tribe of Israel don't they? Give the good people of Salt Lake City Israeli citizenship too.

[Jingthing]

 

It has been well documented that the Jews have had a continual presence in the Palestine region for over 3,000 years. They are not exactly Johnny come latelys. 

 

The lease expired 2,000 years ago.

 

Judaism is a religion not a race. Mormons have it documented by none other than the Angel Moroni that they are the lost tribe of Israel don't they? Give the good people of Salt Lake City Israeli citizenship too.

 

Judaism is a religion. Jews are not a race, but are a people. This has nothing to do with Mormons. Repeating your mantra 1000 times about Judaism doesn't change the history of the JEWISH PEOPLE. Not the same thing as the religion. 

[Chicog]

A brief history of the area...

 

You get a point for each one you can identify, and a bonus point for the singer.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY&feature=kp

 

Answers at: http://blog.ninapaley.com/2012/10/01/this-land-is-mine/

[Sigurris]

A couple of points.

 

By 1932 63% of what is now Israel was legitimately owned by Jews who bought the land (land that was of little good apart from for goats) at the market rate from the grandparents of those now claiming they were robbed of this land.

 

When you hide your rocket launchers in schools, mosques and built up areas you do this for a reason. So that when retaliation comes you can bring out the bodies of your children and wail about the iniquity of it all for left wing liberals. Israel on the other hand build their military bases far from the general population so that they don't have to parade their innocent dead to an uncaring world.

 

I will finish with a quote from a former Israeli PM, " If the arabs put down their guns today, tomorrow there would be peace. If Israel put down their guns today, tomorrow there would be no Israel".

Edited July 16, 2014 by Sigurris

[bina]

Actually there r genetic footprints and diseases that yes ethnically make us all jews whether we want to be or not.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Scott]

A large number of off-topic posts have been deleted.   Please stay on topic.  

[Chicog]

I will finish with a quote from a former Israeli PM, " If the arabs put down their guns today, tomorrow there would be peace. If Israel put down their guns today, tomorrow there would be no Israel".

 

It makes for a great soundbite, but unfortunately it's more like "If the arabs put down their guns today, tomorrow the Israelis will start building more settlements on arab land".

Which is what's happened in the past.

Israel don't want peace with the Palestinians, and especially don't want to go back to the '67 borders with that great lump of oil and gas offshore.

 

Edited July 16, 2014 by Chicog

[Johpa]

 

The truth is that the Jewish minority lived perfectly peacefully with their Palestinian neighbours until Theodore Hertzl came along in 1896 and founded Zionism

Basically, a tremendous injustice has been done to the existing population similar to the cruel things European colonialists did in Oceania, Africa, the Americas. They did it in the 17^th-19^th centuries and got away with it. Zionists have simply left their run a bit too late. The whole world is watching this time and maybe they won’t get away with it..eventually.

 

Israel’s neighbours are a geographic reality and one day if they want to make any progress they will have to make peace with them.

 

I think Palestinians should practise passive resistance. Forget the rockets and rocks. Just record on their phone cams the daily humiliations and violence they have to endure from Israelis and saturate the social media with the images. Shame Israel before the world into a just peace. Situations such as the present only serve Israel’s interests to keep the conflict going until they can swallow up the whole West Bank. Don’t give the Israelis any excuse for more ethnic cleansing.

 

I think a 2 state solution is now impossible...less viable year by year as more land is colonized. The Pals should simply sit tight peacefully for a generation and out breed the Jews in a single state. Screw your way to victory...much more fun.

 

 

Actually the Israelis and the Palestinians were living in relative peaceful co-existence into the 1970s when the first settlements were built to appease the small but vocal religious groups that whose support was always needed to form a parliamentary majority in Israel. A good first step in lowering tensions in the region, apart from removing Netanyahu, would be for Israel to unilaterally, and forcibly, remove the radical religious settlers in Hebron as they did the settlers in Gaza

 

The Zionists were indeed late to the table to the colonial period, but they did get away with it and formed a fully functioning independent nation-state that is not going anywhere.  Unless you have a viabe solution to the forced relocation of 6 million Jews then get over it.

 

Israel has attempted to make peace with its neighbors and has been relatively successful with Egypt and Jordan,  less successful with Syria, and even less successful with Lebanon if only due to the shifting political nature of that country over the decades.  Progress with the various Palestinian groups has, alas, ranged from modest to failure, a result of political failure on both sides along with total intransigence on the part of some political wings of the Palestinian side which remain committed to the destruction of Israel. If you think Netanyahu's remarks in Hebrew are abhorrent (I find Netanyahu abhorrent)  then try reading translations of the mainstream Arab press over at MEMRI.

 

I am in complete agreement that the Palestinians would gain far more, and more quickly,  by practising some sort of passive resistance.  But please don't weaken your argument with absurd statements about ethnic cleansing or desires to "swallow up the whole West Bank".

 

I for one do not believe that a Palestinian state comprising merely the West Bank and Gaza is particularly viable. I believe a re-integration with Jordan. giving Jordan a Mediterranean port in Gaza with free access from Jordan across Israeli territory, is a more financially viable option for long term growth and prosperity.  The problem is really one that is somewhat particular to the Arab MIddle East, the issue of clan, as the top ruling clan in Jordan is the minority Hashem clan that was not orignally based in the area, and a clan that has had long term conflicts with the clans on the West Bank.

 

As for outbreeding, that ridicuous strategic option has already been urged upon the Palestinian population with disasterous impact within the Palestinian regions and espcailly Gaza.  Israel is not going to disappear because the folks in Gaza have been urged to breed like bunny rabbits by those who do not have to endure the misery of overpopulation.  There will be no victory as long as victory is defined as the turning back of history and the destruction of the state of Israel, unless of course you believe that the invisible man in the sky was revealed in the phantasmagorical biblical Book of Revelations.
 

[dexterm]

Johpa,

 

>> Unless you have a viable solution to the forced relocation of 6 million Jews then get over it.

....I have got over it a long time ago. There is no turning back the clock as far as the 1967 Israel. It’s the illegal land grab of East Jerusalem and the West Bank that must be addressed.

 

>> Israel has attempted to make peace with its neighbors and has been relatively successful with Egypt and Jordan,  less successful with Syria

...you have got to be joking. Israel has actually annexed the Syrian Golan Heights and the Syrian shores of Lake Galilee. No peace until that one is sorted.

 

>> But please don't weaken your argument with statements about ethnic cleansing or desires to "swallow up the whole West Bank".

....looks pretty much like Israel is well on its way to swallowing up the whole of the West Bank to me

 

 

>> As for outbreeding, that ridicuous strategic option has already been urged upon the Palestinian population with disasterous impact within the Palestinian regions and espcailly Gaza.  Israel is not going to disappear because the folks in Gaza have been urged to breed like bunny rabbits by those who do not have to endure the misery of overpopulation. 

 

...far from ridiculous and in fact quite realistic.. with 3.9 million in the Palestinian Territory, 1.2 million in Israel; 5.0 million in Arab countries , 0.6 million in foreign countries. So if Israel annexed the West Bank to create one state, you’d instantly have 6 million Jews and 5.1 million Palestinians. Now if Israel treated them as equal citizens with the same rights as Israeli Jews then they could marry who they liked and live together in Israel. Bingo. In fact Israel will face a huge problem by international law taking care of all the people under their occupation unless they soon reach a just peace agreement for a two state solution.

 

>>There will be no victory as long as victory is defined as the turning back of history and the destruction of the state of Israel, unless of course you believe that the invisible man in the sky was revealed in the phantasmagorical biblical Book of Revelations.

 

..that’s your fantasy not mine mate.. I’m an atheist.

 

Israel cannot be destroyed militarily. But there could be a turning back of the clock to 1967 in a 2 state solution..land swaps , fudged deal over East Jerusalem, token compensation for Palestinians whose lands have been confiscated. Every single Arab state has offered to recognize Israel in return for this at the Arab Peace Summit in 2002 and re-endorsed in 2007. Permanent peace, permanent secure internationally recognized borders, exchange of ambassadors, trade agreements, tourism ..the works. The offer is still on the table..all Israel has to do is pick it up.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

And the big carrot...After 5 years of peace, democracy and civil rights both could apply to join the EU (just like Cyprus 90 miles off the coast) and live, work, and worship in each other’s countries anyway. Even more prosperity and stability. But Israel retains the right to offer citizenship to any Jew who is being persecuted anywhere in the world. With their EU membership Jews from the diaspora could return to reclaim their European heritage as dual or even triple citizens.

 

If all this happens, you Israelis and Palestinians will be sitting on one of the most expensive pieces of real estate in the world. $$Billions of investment would pour in. Cheap Arab oil to fuel the economy. Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with all that expertise would become the financial and IT hub of the entire Middle East. The building boom alone would stave off any recession for the next 2 decades. Tourists would flock there in their hundreds of millions to enjoy the history, the culture and the Mediterranean climate. Israeli and Palestinian parents sleeping peacefully at night knowing their children are safe and have a future. Teenagers enjoying their youth rather than years of brutalizing conscription and suicide bomber school. It really could be the promised land. And what a beacon of hope it would be to the world... a conflict lasting a whole century finally resolved. If Israel and the Arabs can do it, then anyone can.

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2014 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

That is a map of Mandate Palestine, under the administration of Great Britain by the League of Nations. It was never controlled by the Palestinian Arabs and never promised to them either. It is a fake map and it is ignorant to keep posting it as it has been discredited long ago. The Palestinian Arabs never controlled that land. A bunch of other people did.  

As far as Israel Israel annexing the West Bank to create one state with The Palestinian Arabs that live there becoming Israeli citizens, that will never happen - it would be suicide - so the scenario is completely ridiculous.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

 

That is a map of Mandate Palestine, under the administration of Great Britain by the League of Nations. It was never controlled by the Palestinian Arabs and never promised to them either. It is a fake map and it is ignorant to keep posting it as it has been discredited long ago. The Palestinian Arabs never controlled that land. A bunch of other people did.  
As far as Israel Israel annexing the West Bank to create one state with The Palestinian Arabs that live there becoming Israeli citizens, that will never happen - it would be suicide - so the scenario is completely ridiculous.

 
What right did other people have to give away land to strangers 1000s of miles away without asking the existing inhabitants first?

 

You keep trying to ignore the fact that the Jews were living there peacefully - they were the existing inhabitants too - and that the Arabs kept slaughtering them until they were forced to fight back. There would have been no need to separate the two peoples otherwise and both sides could have kept the land that they were living on.

However, none of that makes any difference now, the truth is that Israel has been a country for over 6 decades and that they are not going anywhere.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

 

 

That is a map of Mandate Palestine, under the administration of Great Britain by the League of Nations. It was never controlled by the Palestinian Arabs and never promised to them either. It is a fake map and it is ignorant to keep posting it as it has been discredited long ago. The Palestinian Arabs never controlled that land. A bunch of other people did.  
As far as Israel Israel annexing the West Bank to create one state with The Palestinian Arabs that live there becoming Israeli citizens, that will never happen - it would be suicide - so the scenario is completely ridiculous.

 
What right did other people have to give away land to strangers 1000s of miles away without asking the existing inhabitants first?

 

You keep trying to ignore the fact that the Jews were living there peacefully - they were the existing inhabitants too - and that the Arabs kept slaughtering them until they were forced to fight back. There would have been no need to separate the two peoples otherwise and both sides could have kept the land that they were living on.

However, none of that makes any difference now, the truth is that Israel has been a country for over 6 decades and that they are not going anywhere.

 

 

>>the truth is that Israel has been a country for over 6 decades and that they are not going anywhere.

 

..The PA and all the Arab countries at the Arab Peace Conference in 2007 have agreed to recognize Israel within its 1967 borders (throw in a few land swaps). Hamas has offered in the past an indefinite truce..they’d be outvoted anyway once they see the benefits of peace in the West Bank.

 

I agree..Israel is not going anywhere until they make their enemies their friends. Israel will stagnate if the EU imposed a boycott and Americans through social media one day discover what a monster their tax $$ are being used to support.