Visa crackdown: Is this the end of the road for unqualified ESL teachers in Thailand?

[Tiffer]

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

Wrong

Millions of Thais do not speak perfect English. Maybe a few thousand do.

[Gsxrnz]

The Thai students in Nakon Nowhere or even Bangkok attending government schools are not the future business leaders or movers and shakers of Thailand. 

 

It could be argued that putting resource of any kind into teaching English to prospective farm workers, labourers, 7/11 shop assistants and armed forces cannon fodder is basically a waste of time.

 

Rest assured that the children of the ruling classes and upper middle classes will be receiving appropriate English lessons from fluent speakers at expensive private schools either in Thailand or abroad.  There are at least 20 Thai students enrolled in my former small town high school in New Zealand , paying big fees for a western education - I'm sure they all come from Nakon Nowhere and are the children of farm labourers.

 

That's just the way the hierarchical system works in Thailand, and the ruling classes (Red/Yellow/Military included) don't want to see that changed any time soon, despite ASEAN.

[Tiffer]

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

It's true. My wife and all her sisters speak excellent English. One is fluent in French as well.

 

 

Excellent is not perfect...

[thesetat2013]

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

I agree with you about the Cambodians but I've have previously taught English in two schools in Thailand and the level of English speaking ability by the Thai 'English' teachers was pretty abysmal in both.

 

One school I taught at was a fairly poor govt school but the the other school I taught at for almost two years was one the leading schools in the province. I taught in the English programme and even there the Thai teachers English skills were poor and they certainly were not able to speak 'perfect English' as you mention, actually they were a million miles away from being able to do that.

 

I'm not having a go, just telling it how it was when I was teaching here.

 

Anyway, this was 3 or 4 years ago so things might have improved since then.

 

They have not changed. I have taught at some of the best private and government schools in the past 5 years here. 97% of the English Thai as well as the Philippine teachers are lacking in English skills. Without a native speaker all Thai will suffer. Even a Native English Speaker who lacks a degree can speak clearly and well enough to teach a Thai student. 

[Gsxrnz]

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

Wrong

Millions of Thais do not speak perfect English. Maybe a few thousand do.

 

 

sarcasm

ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/  

noun

noun: sarcasm; plural noun: sarcasms

1. the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

   "she didn't like the note of sarcasm in his voice"

   synonyms: derision, mockery, ridicule, satire, irony, scorn, sneering, scoffing, gibing, taunting

[Rorri]

 

 

Don't most countries have qualifications and working visa requirements for teachers? What's wrong with Thailand doing the same?

 

OT: I am just going to take a wild guess here: unqualified students with ED visas of convenience will be next in the clearing out.

In case you have only just woken up, it comes down to money, qualified people can make more in other countries, why come to Thailand and settle for maybe 30000 baht a month. Thailand needs english teachers more than english teachers needing Thailand. Hope this isn't to hard for you to understand.

 

 

If what you say is true Rorri ..... why do so many english teachers come here?

I would say it is the freedom, lifestyle and or women/ladyboys/men

for that there is a price to be, you must be qualified to stay
 

 

And just how many are there, compared to the number of schools. granted, some do come for reasons of their own, but I stand by my comment. There would be far more will to immigrate if Thailand paid a descent wage. Korea is a far nicer country and pays so much more, along with students willing to learn.

[bubba]

 

Don't most countries have qualifications and working visa requirements for teachers? What's wrong with Thailand doing the same?

 

OT: I am just going to take a wild guess here: unqualified students with ED visas of convenience will be next in the clearing out.

In case you have only just woken up, it comes down to money, qualified people can make more in other countries, why come to Thailand and settle for maybe 30000 baht a month. Thailand needs english teachers more than english teachers needing Thailand. Hope this isn't to hard for you to understand.

 

 

Actually, maybe I don't understand and perhaps you can clarify your point. So are you saying that Thailand should allow anyone who wants to come here to teach English, to do so illegally on a tourist visa waiver, earn money, not pay taxes and do so without a work permit? Should there be a special exemption of immigration and labour law just for English teachers, whether qualified or not?

[Tiffer]

There is a good point in the article about the schools having to get themselves in order too.

 

This is so true.

 

When I was teaching, I taught the first 3 months on a tourist visa as the school ensured me that the policy was for all new teachers to work a probation period, after which they'll sort out the Non-B.

 

When the 3 months was up and I needed to get my Non-B they sent me to Laos but they left out some crucial documentation that meant my Non-B visa was rejected upon application. I then had to re-enter Thailand on a 15 day visa exempt stamp (as it was then) to go back to the school so they could correct the mess.

 

Under the new rules, I wouldn't be able to re-enter and all because the school messed up the paperwork for my Non-B visa.

 

It turned out that a school director had forgotten to sign 3 pieces of paper! I then had to go back to Laos afterwards, which was like two trips in the space of a week, where I eventually got my Non-B but the whole episode was a major headache.

 

I'm confused. Was it like two trips in a week or was it actually two trips in the space of a week?

[Ianatlarge]

a. This 'qualification' crap (western crap) does not mean much. I have met qualified teachers who should not be teaching sheep, and I have met entirely, formally unqualified teachers, who do a great job. Give them a break.

b. This 'crackdown' is insane. A sign of paranoic xenophobia from people in uniform.

c. The good old days of the former government, don't look so bad now. Do they?

[Iumentum]

 

English is in fact the official language of India).

English is not in fact the official language of India. According to the 1950 constitution, Hindi written in Devanagari script is.

Though English is widely used in officialdom, there is a strong nationalist movement to phase it out. Perhaps most obvious to the outsider are the name changes of Calcutta, Bombay, Madras, Mysore, Cochin - all replaced with Hindi names.

 

 

Both english and hindi is listed as official languages in India! So english is in fact what you claim it not to be.

[lovenut]

 

English is in fact the official language of India).

English is not in fact the official language of India. According to the 1950 constitution, Hindi written in Devanagari script is.

Though English is widely used in officialdom, there is a strong nationalist movement to phase it out. Perhaps most obvious to the outsider are the name changes of Calcutta, Bombay, Madras, Mysore, Cochin - all replaced with Hindi names.

 

The good folk of Madras  or  Chennai do NOT speak Hindi    Tamil is there language.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed. 

[BudRight]

 

Don't most countries have qualifications and working visa requirements for teachers? What's wrong with Thailand doing the same?
 
OT: I am just going to take a wild guess here: unqualified students with ED visas of convenience will be next in the clearing out.

In case you have only just woken up, it comes down to money, qualified people can make more in other countries, why come to Thailand and settle for maybe 30000 baht a month. Thailand needs english teachers more than english teachers needing Thailand. Hope this isn't to hard for you to understand.
 

 
Actually, maybe I don't understand and perhaps you can clarify your point. So are you saying that Thailand should allow anyone who wants to come here to teach English, to do so illegally on a tourist visa waiver, earn money, not pay taxes and do so without a work permit? Should there be a special exemption of immigration and labour law just for English teachers, whether qualified or not?

They need to overhaul the messy, anachronistic system of labor law and non-B visas if they want NES teachers in Nakorn Nowhere schools. If they don't change it and simply fail to enforce the law then they'll have the state of affairs they've had for the last 20 years. If they don't change it AND enforce it they'll lose their NES teachers.

[ferguston]

Why all the concern ?

Thailand is simply enforcing its immigration rules.

A "tourist visa, visa exempt stamp and a retirement visa" all include the proviso - "employment prohibited"

If Thailand creates a lack of english teachers,qualified or not, it's Thailand's problem.

[Rorri]

 

 

Don't most countries have qualifications and working visa requirements for teachers? What's wrong with Thailand doing the same?

 

OT: I am just going to take a wild guess here: unqualified students with ED visas of convenience will be next in the clearing out.

In case you have only just woken up, it comes down to money, qualified people can make more in other countries, why come to Thailand and settle for maybe 30000 baht a month. Thailand needs english teachers more than english teachers needing Thailand. Hope this isn't to hard for you to understand.

 

 

Actually, maybe I don't understand and perhaps you can clarify your point. So are you saying that Thailand should allow anyone who wants to come here to teach English, to do so illegally on a tourist visa waiver, earn money, not pay taxes and do so without a work permit? Should there be a special exemption of immigration and labour law just for English teachers, whether qualified or not?

 

Actually, maybe I don't understand and perhaps you can clarify your point. So are you saying things that I didn't... I fail to understand why people, like yourself, need to make things up simply to say something...why make false accusations?

Edited July 17, 2014 by Rorri

[bangkokheat]

the teachers that will legally remain here can now stick it for bigger pay, supply and demand

[bangkapi]

I have a lifetime Thai teaching certificate from K-1 to Grade 12 in all subjects except Thai Language.  (ส.ช. 11)

 

However, I'm on a retirement visa and nobody could lure me back into it for a salary under 250K Baht per month.

 

I really want to see how this visa crackdown plays out.  I'm popping popcorn right now.

[smotherb]

They are going to quit teaching ESL.

The future looks to be MSL (Mandarin).

I doubt Thai schools will stop teaching English anytime soon. The business language of ASEAN, and the world, is currently English. There are millions of 'qualified' Filipino English teachers who would love to fill Thailand's need for ESL teachers. By qualified, I mean degreed, many with education degrees in teaching English.

 

Of course, then you have the accreditation of the degree granting institution to question--but that question exists with the many dubiously 'degreed' falang ESL teachers too.

 

In the future, if and when the US drops drastically in global economic strength--like the Brits have already done--Mandarin may indeed take over as the lingua franca of business, in Asia at least.  Mandarin is already taught in most Thai schools.

 

[Watthanaya]

Of course there are tons of Thais who are fluent in English, but why would they want to come up to Issan and work in a government school for far less than what they could make in Bangkok working in not only a different field, but a better working environment.  Furthermore, in Issan I have yet to meet anyone that speaks English fluently, the teachers in particular have very poor English and grammar.

 

In Issan especially foreign teachers are needed, and not just for English.  Children here need to be exposed to different people and different cultures.  I work in a government school in Buriram and it is tough going.  I am here because this is where my husband is from.  I have a bachelor's degree and I don't feel in any way it helps me here.  My company provides all the curriculum which focuses on conversational based English.  I don't see myself necessarily as a teacher, and therefore I would agree that Thailand needs foreigners teaching English and that a degree isn't needed if teachers are simply teaching a curriculum created by a certified teacher.  I would agree however that having my degree would help if I were required to write my own curriculum and that being a certified teacher would be best for that situation.  

 

What is needed however is a complete overhaul of the system.  Teachers should all participate in training of both ESL and the Thai school system.  Those with better qualifications and experience should be paid more.  Possibly having one certified foreigner teacher at each school to oversee the ‘TEFLers’ may be an option.  I would also say that ‘TEFLers’ are more often than not amazing teachers.

 

Question: I was told with my Bachelor Degree I would only be granted 2 work permits (1 year each) for teaching and that after that I would have to qualify as a certified teacher.  Can anyone confirm this?

[wlcart]

Many native speakers and second language speakers can use spoken English fine, but cannot write English to save the lives.   Asking someone to have at least a bachelors degree is very reasonable.  

[ginjag]

Remembering 8-10 years ago, when 2 local town high schools were struggling with English speakers, I was asked by the COUNTY education to help them out.

I said I had the time BUT at my expense travel and time--no money thanks.  I did 2 terms, the kids thoroughly enjoyed and I got a buzz doing it.

I did not take any job from a Thai, as they did not have enough teachers at the high schools to man all classes, so classes without teachers I took up the slack.

I got 3 laminated coloured certificates, presented at a special session by big wigs in the county education set up.

 

Problem here therefore is unpaid work should be welcomed by immigration, as it is with the education departments, as long as Thai people are not being pushed out.

 

Immigration says -working on a long stay 0 visa-example-prohibited-paid or not.   Education heads say please we need your help.

 

On this topic it is naturally saying without proper qualifications and ap visa then it's a no go.  My point being help for free if you have a long stay visa, it should be a help not a hindrance.

[smotherb]

I have a lifetime Thai teaching certificate from K-1 to Grade 12 in all subjects except Thai Language.  (ส.ช. 11)

 

However, I'm on a retirement visa and nobody could lure me back into it for a salary under 250K Baht per month.

 

I really want to see how this visa crackdown plays out.  I'm popping popcorn right now.

 

Too bad you don't have post graduate degrees with the proper research, presentation, and publication credentials; you could get that B250k/mo.

[Always18]

 

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

It's true. My wife and all her sisters speak excellent English. One is fluent in French as well.

 

Well that's your "small family group" out 65 million, your argument is a bit weak, maybe you need to focus on what Thailand needs, not only your happy little family.

 

 

And maybe some TV posters need to focus on the use of sarcasm and wit in the English language....................
 

[Watthanaya]

Many native speakers and second language speakers can use spoken English fine, but cannot write English to save the lives.   Asking someone to have at least a bachelors degree is very reasonable.  

 

This is a very good point!  Definitely having my degree has improved my writing skills.  However I only teach conversational English.

 

This is where an overhaul would help.  Again, I don't necessarily think teachers need a degree but they should be tested and trained accordingly.

[botti]

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

You really must be joking when you say that Thais are speaking a perfect english. In Bangkok and other main towns there are some people who have some good ideas about the language, especially in the upper classes of the society. But you can go to many provinces where the level is very low, if not inexistant. In my wife's village I had the pleasure to meet with the "english teacher" and I was unable to have any conversation with him since he had no idea about english. And this is the sort of people who are supposed to diffuse the language among the young generations.

Moreover, in 2006, some english teachers (foreigners) were hired by the Ministry of Education in order to conduct an assessment aimed at evaluating the quality of english teaching in the whole country. The final report issued fully confirmed what I said above : a disaster.

I'm not saying that unqualified foreign teachers is the solution to reversing the tendency but they at least contribute(d) to improving the understanding of a second language in this country. 

[Rorri]

 

They are going to quit teaching ESL.

The future looks to be MSL (Mandarin).

I doubt Thai schools will stop teaching English anytime soon. The business language of ASEAN, and the world, is currently English. There are millions of 'qualified' Filipino English teachers who would love to fill Thailand's need for ESL teachers. By qualified, I mean degreed, many with education degrees in teaching English.

 

Of course, then you have the accreditation of the degree granting institution to question--but that question exists with the many dubiously 'degreed' falang ESL teachers too.

 

In the future, if and when the US drops drastically in global economic strength--like the Brits have already done--Mandarin may indeed take over as the lingua franca of business, in Asia at least.  Mandarin is already taught in most Thai schools.

 

 

"Mandarin is already taught in most Thai schools." really, wow, this is news to me, and I'm sure news to the many Isaan schools I've been to.

[pizzachang]

Don't know if this real or if I'm only imagining it but I have noticed that many jobs (for Thai people) require a higher level of education than comparable ones in the USA.   And age discrimination is rampant in Thailand.  Am I wrong on this?

[BudRight]

Why all the concern ?

Thailand is simply enforcing its immigration rules.

A "tourist visa, visa exempt stamp and a retirement visa" all include the proviso - "employment prohibited"

If Thailand creates a lack of english teachers,qualified or not, it's Thailand's problem.

 

Is it lonely? Being the only person in the whole world?

[55bulldog]

Let's hope so!  Unfortunately, with the ASEAN the demand is too high.  The only crack down needed is on the education system and the whole "structure" of their English programs.  One hour a week and every student passes is not a formula for success but it sure is a great formula to attract functioning alcoholic sex pats to a paycheck to support their needs.

 

What about the scuba dive industry?  I know Phuket is very strict on work permits but other places like Koh Lanta,Phi Phi, Samui, and Phangan are loaded with dive professionals that are dependent on extending 60 day TVs.  The government only allows1-3 WPs per shop-these go to the owner(s) and maybe one of the head instructors.  The rest of the employees are using 60 day TVs.  What is going to happen to the dive industry when hundreds, possibly thousands are denied entry.  It would shut down the dive industry.  Not too many Thais are into diving it would not survive if it weren't for farangs.

[Rorri]

 

 

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

It's true. My wife and all her sisters speak excellent English. One is fluent in French as well.

 

Well that's your "small family group" out 65 million, your argument is a bit weak, maybe you need to focus on what Thailand needs, not only your happy little family.

 

 

And maybe some TV posters need to focus on the use of sarcasm and wit in the English language....................
 

 

And maybe some TV posters need to focus on what sarcasm and wit really is and how to apply it.