Visa crackdown: Is this the end of the road for unqualified ESL teachers in Thailand?

[Bob12345]

The Thai students in Nakon Nowhere or even Bangkok attending government schools are not the future business leaders or movers and shakers of Thailand. 

 

And I think you hit the nail on the head here.

 

It must have become clear in recent years that giving knowledge and power to the poorer people in Thailand will lead to the destruction of the current system. Poor farmers use their voting rights to claim things they are entitled to at the expense of the rich.

 

What would be a better way to shut those people up by first taking away their rights to vote, and next to make sure they will not rise up again in a decade by limiting their education? If they only speak Thai they will only be exposed to Thai media sources which are in the control of the elite. 

 

The rich elite will not shoot itself in the foot since the limited number of allowed foreign teachers will be based in Bangkok which is their stronghold.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Bob12345

[masuk]

The only "qualified" teacher is one who has studied education at a university, usually has a degree and has also graduated with a "Dip ED".    

 

Unqualified teachers are those who hold a degree in anything at all, A Soil Scientist, an Engineer, a Doctor of Medicine.    Needless to say, why would these folk be wanting to teach in Thailand, given the costs involved to get here, and the salary offered?

 

University academic staff are often notoriously poor educators, never having studied the subject, but being experts in their own field.  Graduates fall into the same category, and to expect a new graduate in say, Organic Chemistry, to stand up in front of a group of Thai students and discuss the past perfect tense, or correct punctuation, or where to put an apostrophe and why, is being extremely hopeful.

 

If they have done a recognised TEFL course, this is a huge advantage, as they at least have to get up and lecture classes as part of their training.  You cannot do this on-line.

 

The salaries paid in Asian countries almost never covers the cost of a TEFL course, and Thailand in particular pays little, if anything, of the costs involved in getting here, from visas to accommodation.

 

So to sum up, the country is doing itself a huge dis-service in demanding a University degree of native speakers, whereas neighbouring ASEAN countries are doing very well with trained TEFL teachers with experience of their of their own language and culture which they can impart to students.

 

Thailand will always be the lowest ranking ASEAN country in the English language while they continue to impose unrealistic pre-requisites.    

[Maroon Watcher]

It's about poor training of Management and staff -
even officials shake their heads in disbelief that they get it wrong time after time - No system...

 

but we don't need a system...

("It's always worked this way before...")

 

Or worse he is just Farrang - who cares

 

(The teachers who leave, do. And the students who get left behind do/should do)

 

Personally I think the worse of Thailand than before I arrived...

 

 

 

 

 

There is a good point in the article about the schools having to get themselves in order too.

 

This is so true.

 

When I was teaching, I taught the first 3 months on a tourist visa as the school ensured me that the policy was for all new teachers to work a probation period, after which they'll sort out the Non-B.

 

When the 3 months was up and I needed to get my Non-B they sent me to Laos but they left out some crucial documentation that meant my Non-B visa was rejected upon application. I then had to re-enter Thailand on a 15 day visa exempt stamp (as it was then) to go back to the school so they could correct the mess.

 

Under the new rules, I wouldn't be able to re-enter and all because the school messed up the paperwork for my Non-B visa.

 

It turned out that a school director had forgotten to sign 3 pieces of paper! I then had to go back to Laos afterwards, which was like two trips in the space of a week, where I eventually got my Non-B but the whole episode was a major headache.

 

I'm confused. Was it like two trips in a week or was it actually two trips in the space of a week?

 

 

Dear confused !    Why is this so amazingly important. And why the "like" between it and two. Do you call this good English, i was never taught to keep slipping "like" into my sentences, which is what i hear a lot of today from young English speakers.

 

 

 

[Almartin]

This is a serious issue for Thailand and one they need to get a handle on quickly. Why?

 

Thailand is currently one of the bottom countries for speaking English out of the 10 ASEAN countries (http://whereisthailand.info/2012/07/english-proficiency/). So what? Well when the borders open Thailand is likely to see an influx of workers from any of the ASEAN countries who can all speak better English. This means that where it matters such as tourism they will get the betters jobs and the Thais will be left standing, wondering what the hell just happened.

 

When it comes to teaching English, yes Thai's can teach English but that isn't the issue. Knowing what to say and pronouncing it correctly are two different things. Currently Thais have very poor pronunciation and that skill can only be learned from a native English speaker. Communication is the key word here. You don't need to know all the Grammar rules to get your message across but you do need good pronunciation and vocabulary. That's why these unqualified teachers are essential to Thailand.

 

Now personally I don't agree with working illegally on a tourist visa. Illegal is still illegal. It is possible however for these teachers to work here legally. My Nephew teaches English in Chiang Mai and doesn't have a university degree, yet he has a non-b visa and a work permit. How? He works through an agency who arranged everything for him.

 

Of course there is the other side of the coin here, Thais willingness to learn English. I teach at a school in Phuket and I'm alarmed at the attitude of some of my students. They seem to think that they don't need to learn English. Then there's lazy. Have you ever heard someone say that Thai's are lazy? i'll let you answer that one. Ultimately if the Thai's don't pull their socks up they will get left behind when it comes to the ASEAN and world economy.

 

[thesetat2013]

Remembering 8-10 years ago, when 2 local town high schools were struggling with English speakers, I was asked by the COUNTY education to help them out.
I said I had the time BUT at my expense travel and time--no money thanks.  I did 2 terms, the kids thoroughly enjoyed and I got a buzz doing it.
I did not take any job from a Thai, as they did not have enough teachers at the high schools to man all classes, so classes without teachers I took up the slack.
I got 3 laminated coloured certificates, presented at a special session by big wigs in the county education set up.
 
Problem here therefore is unpaid work should be welcomed by immigration, as it is with the education departments, as long as Thai people are not being pushed out.
 
Immigration says -working on a long stay 0 visa-example-prohibited-paid or not.   Education heads say please we need your help.
 
On this topic it is naturally saying without proper qualifications and ap visa then it's a no go.  My point being help for free if you have a long stay visa, it should be a help not a hindrance.

 
Well, if you were properly qualified, then those education officials could have both paid you and gotten you a work permit.
 
Apparently, what you, and so many others, are asking is that the Thai Department of Education lower/ease its 'work' definition and 'work permit' qualification standards for ESL teachers. That may be the way--a more lax interpretation of work and of teaching qualifications.
 
Let's face it, most sing-song English-speaking bar girls could teach anuban kids basic nouns and phrases--wouldn't that be great, your 5 year old comes home and says, "you want short time?" 

 

You are missing the picture
Im a not for unqualified teachers to teach all aspects of the English lanquage as they are not qualified or educated enough to do this. However, speaking is different. Where do you think those bar girls learned their English? Certainly not at any school. As for Thais teaching Thais? This would be a good idea except for 2 things. Most can not speak English but can teach the principles of it and the grammar. Also, if they do teach speaking, their pronunciation is all wrong and incomprehensable to a foreigner. Hence, the need to have native speakers in the classrooms.

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[wilcopops]

Thailands education authorities claiming to only want qualified teachers, the reality is that there are a great number of teachers working here without degrees, and consequently without Non-Bs and work permits.



I think this premise is incorrect. I'd like to see a believable/creditable estimate on how many unqualified teachers there really are.....I reckon the number is insignificant..... Can someone come up with evidence to prove me wrong?

[Zonka]

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

Millions Thais speak a perfect English?

 

Are you one of them?

 

I've been here 16 years (not a teacher) and whilst I agree there are Thais than can speak English, no way would I say that 'millions' of Thais can speak English.

[NanLaew]

If there is a great shortage of native speaker TEFL instructors then the void will be filled by ASEAN. There are many, many teachers in Philippines or Myanmar who have excellent English language skills and who find the wage scale in Thailand quite adequate. 

 

Agreed. And all the unqualified but eminently more crucial 'native' English speakers that have been here 'teaching' their students cringe worthy things such as, "You should of done your homework," or "You should of payed attention yesterday," can bugger off back to their regular jobs as a cab driver or brick layer where, "You should of caught the bus," and "You should of made more cement," only makes the speaker look like a tool.

[isawasnake]

If we could all pop into the average classroom right now, being a fly on the wall with a foreign English teacher at the helm, I believe we would all be convinced that the first thing that needs to happen is the overall education system and its general policies need to change. There is no learning going on here whatsoever. After that is done, which it never will be, you'd need to get good teachers in here. This will never be done either. Where does this leave us? A monkey could teach English in these Thai classrooms and the results would be about the same. It is their country, let them do what they please with it.  

[smotherb]

 

 

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

Wrong

Millions of Thais do not speak perfect English. Maybe a few thousand do.

 

Please, have you not seen the poor written English in these TV forums--perfect English is hardly the question.

 

 

 

Erm..... Considering that probably 50% of the members on ThaiVisa are not English speakers as a first language, I have been quite impressed with the level of English ability across this forum.

 

The real dunces are those who don't realise that certain little detail.
 

 

Please, I am not referring to non-native English speakers when I say poor English is rampant on these forums. Would you really like to debate this issue? Please consider; even the moderators have had to reprimand, and then censure, some posters for flaming other posters because of their poor English.

[KillingTime]

I don't see Mandarin ever competing with English. India will soon be more populous than China and is an English speaking country. Few people in the world will ever benefit from learning Mandarin, but English is set to continue to be the key tongue for most.

 

Obviously Chinese is useful in the Far East, just as Spanish is useful in Latin America, but there are others too: Portuguese in South America, Korean, Japanese etc in the East. Even so, the only language that is going to be consistently useful for the majority is English.

[puchooay]

If these are the same clowns offering private classes for 300B an hour, driving down the income of real teachers, I'll be glad to see them go.

 

"This now means that a teacher with 16 years experience, a degree, a TESOL diploma from UK, a school to teach at and students to teach must leave." No it doesnt? Anyone who has those qualifications can easily get a work permit and visa, assuming the school is legit and not dodging its responsibilities.

 

Yes, it does.

 

The teachers council of Thailand have refused.

 

The school is "legit". I have been there for a few years now and have been perfectly legal.

 

Now the TCT say NO.
 

[razer]

Thailand has a reputation of private language schools using and abusing the TEFLers BECAUSE they are not qualified. I have heard about and read about several cases. I have FIRST HAND knowledge of one such employer. I knew the teacher they hired. He had a degree and a TESOL certificate, but his employer (I know this man) wouldn't apply for a work permit and eventually refused to pay him for work done. When the teacher threatened to go to court for his pay, the school owner told him that this is Thailand and there are ways to take care of people like him.

 

Maybe this is a back door approach to weeding out the unscrupulous school owners. Long overdue.

[Bob12345]

 

 

They have not changed. I have taught at some of the best private and government schools in the past 5 years here. 97% of the English Thai as well as the Philippine teachers are lacking in English skills. Without a native speaker all Thai will suffer. Even a Native English Speaker who lacks a degree can speak clearly and well enough to teach a Thai student. 

 

 

Something I don't get.  Most farangs in Thailand will say that Thais in general do not speak English well.  The vast majority.  Therefore, all these years of having these so-called TEFLers have done nothing to improve the English proficiency of Thais.  Zero.  So removing them should have zero effect. 

 

I have to admit this is the weakest reasoning I have seen in months, so i hope you were being sarcastic.

 

First you incorrectly assume that the fact that Thais, on average, do not speak English well means there has been no improvement. Second you incorrectly assume that what most farangs say is true instead of looking at genuine research testing english skills. Thirdly you incorrectly assume that all Thais have been exposed to TEFLers which is impossible given that the number of TEFLers is limited and they only teach school kids.

 

Again, I sincerely hoping you were joking as it is otherwise almost impossible to make this many mistakes in such a short post in you would use your brain.

[wilcopops]

I think some people need first of all to understand what TEFL/TESOL actually is. It is no it just teaching English, it is a specific system that involves native speakers. Any thing outside that is NOT TEFL.

[englishoak]

This should be good news for the many non so called native speakers  who have degrees in education and English language and yet cant really find a decent job with decent pay. just saying !! another man's meat is another man's  !!!

 

Yup and I know 3 or 4 native supposedly degree qualified English teachers who can write perfect English but cant string a coherent verbal sentence in English together. Woopie oh to be a kid being taught by them 

 

Thank god I got my daughter out of Thailand when i did to a decent country with a decent education system. The one teacher in LOS that made a difference was a longterm in/out ESL non degree teacher who taught because she wanted to make a difference, she did just that and ended up eventually up country in a school that could barely afford 20k for the past 4 years and the school and kids love ( loved ) her . The other 4 degree holding English teachers my kid had in her time were more interested in getting down to the bar than teaching ...I even decked one for his comments on girl Thai student uniforms once the sick **** so while they stay drinking and whoring, shes gone as of next month and her school and kids just lost the best English teacher for under 12s they ever had. Makes way for another with a  degree maybe but what about the attitude ? maybe great but maybe as is all too often the case in a backwater underfunded school probably not. 

 

Just another story of another lost top quality ESL teacher.

 

 

Sue if your reading PM me when you get home 

Edited July 17, 2014 by englishoak

[oldsailor35]

 

 

They are going to quit teaching ESL.

The future looks to be MSL (Mandarin).

I doubt Thai schools will stop teaching English anytime soon. The business language of ASEAN, and the world, is currently English. There are millions of 'qualified' Filipino English teachers who would love to fill Thailand's need for ESL teachers. By qualified, I mean degreed, many with education degrees in teaching English.

 

Of course, then you have the accreditation of the degree granting institution to question--but that question exists with the many dubiously 'degreed' falang ESL teachers too.

 

In the future, if and when the US drops drastically in global economic strength--like the Brits have already done--Mandarin may indeed take over as the lingua franca of business, in Asia at least.  Mandarin is already taught in most Thai schools.

 

 

"Mandarin is already taught in most Thai schools." really, wow, this is news to me, and I'm sure news to the many Isaan schools I've been to.

 

 

My partner from Suratthani  had to go to uni in Bangkok to get her degree in Mandarin, and now we are being told that it is being taught in schools, goodness me!  how the Thai education has improved in recent years.
 

[GOLDBUGGY]

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Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

It's true. My wife and all her sisters speak excellent English. One is fluent in French as well.

 

 

My Wife to. But you must admit that for Thailand it is still quite rare for them to have these English Skills good enough to teach English. So now the only question remaining is if they would be willing to take some teaching course, then consider teaching English in some Public School in Northern Thailand for 15,000 Baht a month?

 

If the answer is "No", then there knowledge of English does not add or subtract away even one English Teaching Job in Thailand. Therefore, there knowledge of English means nothing when related to this topic. No different then me, or most other poster here knowing English but not wanting a Teaching Job here. 

 

So my point is that for the Thai's who do know how to speak English, they are more likely higher educated, like my wife, and therefore do not want to take on some low paying teaching job. To attract them, the wages would have to go up.

 

There will be many openings for English Teachers here soon, which will not be filled by qualified Western English Teachers. They way it stands now they will either go without or hire from poorer countries like perhaps India, or the Philippines. But even for them $1,000 a month is not that much at all. It will be interesting to see how this develops.        

 

 

[yanyk]

you have a degree in Education and majoring in English language, your country speaks English as its official language and yet you are not seen as 'qualified'

because you are not a 'Native' backpacker or truck driver from England, USA, AUSTRALIA this is sick..this is definitely bad news for the unqualified teachers .

 

[smotherb]

 

 

They are going to quit teaching ESL.

The future looks to be MSL (Mandarin).

I doubt Thai schools will stop teaching English anytime soon. The business language of ASEAN, and the world, is currently English. There are millions of 'qualified' Filipino English teachers who would love to fill Thailand's need for ESL teachers. By qualified, I mean degreed, many with education degrees in teaching English.

 

Of course, then you have the accreditation of the degree granting institution to question--but that question exists with the many dubiously 'degreed' falang ESL teachers too.

 

In the future, if and when the US drops drastically in global economic strength--like the Brits have already done--Mandarin may indeed take over as the lingua franca of business, in Asia at least.  Mandarin is already taught in most Thai schools.

 

 

"Mandarin is already taught in most Thai schools." really, wow, this is news to me, and I'm sure news to the many Isaan schools I've been to.

 

Well, I must admit my statement may have been wrong; however, have you asked? I have a niece and nephew who attend school in Satun, and friends whose children attend schools in Hatyai and Songkhla. All take Mandarin classes. Yes, it was a surprise to me too. So, my statement that 'most' should have said 'some.'

 

[oldsailor35]

Don't know if this real or if I'm only imagining it but I have noticed that many jobs (for Thai people) require a higher level of education than comparable ones in the USA.   And age discrimination is rampant in Thailand.  Am I wrong on this?

There also appears to be a big colour discrimination, light skin is more favourable. Passes in education are often 'bought' so  required qualifications really do not mean much at all. Very often its all about family class and who one knows.

[Berkshire]

 

 

 

They have not changed. I have taught at some of the best private and government schools in the past 5 years here. 97% of the English Thai as well as the Philippine teachers are lacking in English skills. Without a native speaker all Thai will suffer. Even a Native English Speaker who lacks a degree can speak clearly and well enough to teach a Thai student. 

 

 

Something I don't get.  Most farangs in Thailand will say that Thais in general do not speak English well.  The vast majority.  Therefore, all these years of having these so-called TEFLers have done nothing to improve the English proficiency of Thais.  Zero.  So removing them should have zero effect. 

 

I have to admit this is the weakest reasoning I have seen in months, so i hope you were being sarcastic.

 

First you incorrectly assume that the fact that Thais, on average, do not speak English well means there has been no improvement. Second you incorrectly assume that what most farangs say is true instead of looking at genuine research testing english skills. Thirdly you incorrectly assume that all Thais have been exposed to TEFLers which is impossible given that the number of TEFLers is limited and they only teach school kids.

 

Again, I sincerely hoping you were joking as it is otherwise almost impossible to make this many mistakes in such a short post in you would use your brain.

 

 

I hope you're not an English teacher because your writing leaves a lot to be desired.  Of course I was being sarcastic.  One of the favorite tactics of the serial Thai-basher is to suggest that Thais are terrible in English.  Even worse than Filipinos....although they always freak-out when I mention Japan and Korea as being even less proficient in English than the average Thai. 

 

But back OT, all I see happening is more English teachers coming from the region once AEC is established.  Thailand will have plenty of qualified English teachers going forward.  Kicking out unqualified TEFLers will have zero impact on Thailand over the long run.

 

 

[Wat dee]

They've done a shitty job,so not a big loss!!

[anon467367354]

I taught in a thai gov't school, they hired a woman from the US with a degree in chemisty, she would sit there in a dazed look and say "I have no idea what I'm doing, I don't have a clue as to what to do with these kids" Having a degree means nothing when it comes to teaching ESL and until Thailand realizes this, it's going to hurt.

As to the comment that there are millions of Thais that speak perfect English that is ridiculous, if that were the case why is Thailand at the bottom of the Asean list of proficiency in English?

 

In regards as to how the current work permit is implemented, you have to have a work permit for every place you teach. A work permit for a Thai gov't school does not allow you to teach corporate English in the evening. I've taught at language schools, I've taught most of the different branches of the Thai gov't, teaching 8 different companies or branches of the gov't per month is not going to get me 8 different work permits. I can see the language schools going down for this reason. They can't under the current laws legally operate because of the work permit situation.

 

The solution: issue "green cards" where if someone wants to hire you they can and you are now legally employed and a tax payer. Rather simple really but since it's never been done it probably won't be. Change has to come in this area if Thailand wants to compete in the world market IMHO.

[oldsailor35]

 

 

They have not changed. I have taught at some of the best private and government schools in the past 5 years here. 97% of the English Thai as well as the Philippine teachers are lacking in English skills. Without a native speaker all Thai will suffer. Even a Native English Speaker who lacks a degree can speak clearly and well enough to teach a Thai student. 

 

 

Something I don't get.  Most farangs in Thailand will say that Thais in general do not speak English well.  The vast majority.  Therefore, all these years of having these so-called TEFLers have done nothing to improve the English proficiency of Thais.  Zero.  So removing them should have zero effect. 

 

You are 100% wrong. These TEFLers  really are doing a great service to many kids  here in Thailand who would otherwise have no hope of learning English whatsoever.

 

[PoorSucker]

Forgive my ignorance, but why all these teachers must stay on tourist visa? Can't they get something like an ED visa and continue teaching while attending Thai language classes twice a week?

 

You can not get a work permit on either a tourist visa or a no-ED visa.

[smotherb]

Forgive my ignorance, but why all these teachers must stay on tourist visa? Can't they get something like an ED visa and continue teaching while attending Thai language classes twice a week?

 

You are not allowed to work on an Ed visa
 

[belg]

I hope the following thing is the ED schools & their fake students cleanup

 

why would you be able to stay here on ED visa, if you have no intention to learn the language ?

 

I feel the next step comming, where they will ask everybody to learn THAI that wants to live here...  this is called integration programs in our home country, but big surprise, those are sponsored by the governement and cost nearly to nothing

[alexoftroy]

Are you talking about these "poor schools" who are employing illegal workers who they can pay salaries to them less than usual and take away the opportunity of a Thai national who have the proper degree to teach? Have you any idea how many unemployed Thai qualified teachers out there? There are proper things to do everything, in this case the proper thing to do is for that school to apply for a proper work permit for the foreign teacher if they really needed them. And no, this is not a bad thing but a great thing for Thailand! How many of you British or American nationals here have a thing called "back to back" visas in your countries? Do you think your countries would allow this?

 

For those people who are complaining about how Thai people are not speaking English correctly. Well, do they have to? You have to be aware of that this is Thailand, not England, not USA and most certainly not occupied or colonised by any of those... So if you're too concerned about how to communicate with them, why don't you speak their own language on their own country? Please stop pestering about that this is for their own good, let them decide what's good for them or not.

[wilcopops]

Furthermore it looks like many posters are unclear on what qualifications are required to TEFL.