High-speed train project continues with the Bangkok-Chiang Mai route

[Ricardo]

Previously phase-2 was just a dream, supposed to be built by private-enterprise, now it will open just two years after phase-1 is operating ?

It will be interesting to peruse the financial-plans for either part of the project, personally I don't expect to be travelling on high-speed trains in Thailand, anytime soon.

[Paul944]

They can buy the abandoned high speed trains from the dutch Fyra project for a real bargain in Italy now. The issue of no snow resistance will be less of a problem in Thailand. Travelling from Suvarnabhumi Airport to the city gives a view to another historic big infrastructure plan never completed.

[tangcoral]

Lets work on metropolitan transportation first, more bts and mrt lines.

[WhizBang]

I opposed the high speed rail especially to Chiang Mai, when air travel in 1 hour or so for the same price.

So now I will say my piece, I am opposed to the high speed links to anywhere. Double standard rail-passenger-freight -double tracks-UK style enough for 20 years.

So my take is bash where needed I think this decision is wrong.

PTP and army wrong.

I agree with you completely. Thailand does NOT need a high speed train. Get dual track standard guage trains operational FIRST.

This is the second bad decision by the junta today. The first was giving Yingy the green light to leave the country. You just know she ain't returning.

[Oorinara]

Hope it's not SRT which runs this high speed train at 200-300 km/h.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[nong38]

What is high speed in Thailand?

It is a move forward, but first, we have twin track to Nakhon Sawan at metre guage.

The expected time to high speed to Pitsanoluk is 2026 I hope this is going to be standard guage.

The prices quoted I assume is what they think are based on todays prices, I would not hold them to it, its a best guess and we know it will be more, as far as the plane is concerned, well the plane will be quicker but with the train you just turn up and go, no hanging about before you board and it will be more city centre to centre.

I am of course pro rail, a very civilized way to travel.

[hansnl]

The first time I took the train from Bangkok to Chiang Mai was in 1969. The scenery was beautiful no doubt. Also, I will never forget peeking out my curtains on my sleeper and seeing a drunk man walking around wielding a knife. Seventeen hours is a long ride!

Something needs to be done with mass transportation in an attempt to get buses and vans off the road, make travel easier, cheaper, greener, etc. Trains offer the best alternative. There is the whole issue of the ASEAN connectivity plans as well.

I thought the original plans for the trains call for completion before 2026. Should start with Bangkok-Pattaya, Bangkok-Hua Hin as priorities and work on the long hauls after.

High speed raillines need to be long distance.

A short line, for example, Bangkok to Pattaya, is not long enough for the train to reach high speed.

A HSL from Bangkok to Nong Khai, with halts at Korat, Khon Kaen and Udon will be the best bet to start with.

Bangkok-Chiang Mai will be a loss making business, always!

[hansnl]

I opposed the high speed rail especially to Chiang Mai, when air travel in 1 hour or so for the same price.

So now I will say my piece, I am opposed to the high speed links to anywhere. Double standard rail-passenger-freight -double tracks-UK style enough for 20 years.

So my take is bash where needed I think this decision is wrong.

PTP and army wrong.

I agree with you completely. Thailand does NOT need a high speed train. Get dual track standard guage trains operational FIRST.

This is the second bad decision by the junta today. The first was giving Yingy the green light to leave the country. You just know she ain't returning.

Dual track standard gauge?

Dual track metre gauge would be nice to start with.

[FangFerang]

I would dearly love to see the construction engineers plan to have a train wind through mountains at high speed. Looking forward to some ghastly headlines of entire trains going off the mountain. Have the NCPO finally succumbed to the lure of personal enrichment at the expense of the taxpayers?

Finally? What do you mean? The lottery giants here are, in one big case, military owned. See what's been done about it? They cut out the little guys, and threw more meat to the dragon instead. FInally? FInally since thirty years ago.

[rametindallas]

I would dearly love to see the construction engineers plan to have a train wind through mountains at high speed. Looking forward to some ghastly headlines of entire trains going off the mountain. Have the NCPO finally succumbed to the lure of personal enrichment at the expense of the taxpayers?

Finally? What do you mean? The lottery giants here are, in one big case, military owned. See what's been done about it? They cut out the little guys, and threw more meat to the dragon instead. FInally? FInally since thirty years ago.

Finally? What do you mean?

I didn't use the word 'finally' so I have no idea what your question is.

FInally? FInally since thirty years ago.

Please be more specific as I haven't a clue what you are referring to that happened 30 years ago.

[Thai at Heart]

I opposed the high speed rail especially to Chiang Mai, when air travel in 1 hour or so for the same price.

So now I will say my piece, I am opposed to the high speed links to anywhere. Double standard rail-passenger-freight -double tracks-UK style enough for 20 years.

So my take is bash where needed I think this decision is wrong.

PTP and army wrong.

I agree. This is bizarre planning. Why only this line and not others. I think a little checking about which companies stand to profit from this is in order.

[The Deerhunter]

I'm flabbergasted. I was sure that was a dead duck. I am almost looking for a retraction tomorrow because someone mis-understood something and thought that it was all go & rushed out a press release. Chiangmai will never make money. Nongkhai was the only line worth considering and that at some point in the future after upgrading the lines & signals, completing the double tracking & buying new rolling stock for normal rail. I have to say I don't think we have heard the last chapter today on this decision.

[seajae]

what I find totally stupid is that they cannot even guarantee the water supply or the power supply yet they want to spend billions on a high speed train. One would think that fixing the countries basic amenities such as water and power supplies to everyone would rate higher than a high speed train, in Surat Thani we had no water today, Nakon si Thammarat hasnt had water for 4 days and tonight we had no power and they are telling everyone to turn off all their power as they cannot guarantee supply if they dont. How backward is a country that wants to spend billions for the rich few rather than fix the basics for all their citizens, very pathetic attitude about this, time they started making this country for all the population not just the bangkokians

[96tehtarp]

I opposed the high speed rail especially to Chiang Mai, when air travel in 1 hour or so for the same price.

Don't overlook all the intermediate stops.

This was a very bad idea when Pea Thai proposed it.

Now that the junta has re-proposed it and approved it I am feeling very happy about it.

Red proposals were bad. Green approvals are good. I see this clearly now after having made an appropriate adjustment in my thinking.

Edited July 17, 2014 by 96tehtarp

[worgeordie]

That means i will be dead by the time they get it operating,would have loved

to see it hurtling through the Thai country side,BUT what about road crossings

how are they going to solve that problem,as i am sure they will be many drivers,

like today who think they can beat the train !

regards worgeordie

[impulse]

High speed raillines need to be long distance.

A short line, for example, Bangkok to Pattaya, is not long enough for the train to reach high speed.

I agree with your conclusion, but not with your reason. China has several high speed trains that scoot right along over a very short distance- the Shanghai airport rail probably being the most famous.

I've been up to 310km/hr Tianjin-Beijing many times. 29 minutes to go something like 60+ miles. Beautiful, very fast, very comfortable ride.

The problem is that shaving half the time off the train trip didn't really save much time off the door-door commute. It still took over a 30-60 minute white knuckle taxi ride to get to the Tianjin station, then waiting (generally) another 30-60 minutes for the next available train seat, then another 45-60 minute taxi ride in the horrid Beijing traffic to get anywhere. (Or an even longer ride on the miserably overcrowded Beijing subway)

So the high speed rail really didn't reduce the overall trip time very much at all- (partly because the high speed train uses a station that is 10 miles south of the old Beijing slow speed train station and that added to the door to door time and taxi costs.) What it did do is get me off the deadly roads, and reduce the traffic on those deadly roads, to everyone's benefit.

I'd still love to see decent rail from Downtown to BKK to Pattaya, just to make the trip safer. I don't really care if it's high speed, but if they're starting from scratch, why not?

Edited July 17, 2014 by impulse

[UbonRatch]

2026? That's the year SpaceX says it will put humans on Mars.

U beat me to it..

2026.. Thai baht vs US$ valued at 3002...

Cars running on roads in tandem, at 200Km/h with laser safety gapping.

Sh!!te is disintegrated by toilet hot flame ass burners instantly (especially nano-tech designed to identify skin and not burn it), as it is dissipated, eliminating the need for bog roll,.

And what's Thailand doing?

I forgot. ... So did Thailand, as it argues still about democracy and a dead monar... Asian planet.

[tx22cb]

I would dearly love to see the construction engineers plan to have a train wind through mountains at high speed. Looking forward to some ghastly headlines of entire trains going off the mountain. Have the NCPO finally succumbed to the lure of personal enrichment at the expense of the taxpayers?

It is unlikely that Thai generals (incl the Junta leaders) got their (and their wives') lifestyles just on their paltry official salaries.

I'm bemused that people assume that these people must be whiter than white, just because they staged a coup.

[UbonRatch]

I would dearly love to see the construction engineers plan to have a train wind through mountains at high speed. Looking forward to some ghastly headlines of entire trains going off the mountain. Have the NCPO finally succumbed to the lure of personal enrichment at the expense of the taxpayers?

It is unlikely that Thai generals (incl the Junta leaders) got their (and their wives') lifestyles just on their paltry official salaries.

I'm bemused that people assume that these people must be whiter than white, just because they staged a coup.

Whiter than white wasn't exactly a good choice of words, was it?

[northernjohn]

I really don't understand how these high speed rail projects can pay their own way. 1000 baht in today's dollars is not far off what low cost carriers do to Chiang Mai. How can this pay for itself?

I think it is a troll

The working committee of the Bangkok-Chiang Mai high-speed train project phase 2 said the National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) had given the green light to the project to move forward.

What working committee. The original plan the PTP put forth was a three phased plan. The Government would pay for the first leg and private industry would pay for the next two phases.

Now all of a sudden we have a committee that has been working on a completely different version with a ridiculously low price that could not maintain it today much less in 12 years.

[northernjohn]

With projects like this their completion price and fares almost always end up much, much higher, especially the final construction cost. But it's easy for current politicians to the blame previous politicians for the gross price under-estimation....and they will also say unforeseen events occurred raising the final price.

Yes like needing to double track it.

[northernjohn]

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I can't see many foreign contractors falling over themselves to get this job

Sure they will...already many major construction projects, especially BTS projects in Bangkok, comprised of joint foreign-Thai companies.

Would that be Ital-Thai by any chance . many major rail companies are scared of getting their fingers burnt. Actually it will be the civeils that costs the money

The original idea of from Malaysia to Lao was put forth as a joint effort between Thailand and China. They had three nations interested in building it.

China. Japan and France. France dropped out as the price would be way to high to maker it a profitable venture.

I see no way where things have changed cost wise except to go up. this has to be a troll.

[lostsoul49]

I will wait for the first derailment at 300 KM/h with 1000 souls on board and that will be the end of it.

I certainly would not risk setting foot on it.

[northernjohn]

Completely disagree with this move by the Junta.

If Thailand cannot maintain slow speed trains they they won't be able to maintain high speed trains and the consequences will be disastrous.

Well China I know has a good high-speed train network, and I'm sure they're partly behind this (isn't the goal to have high-speed rail all the way from Kunming to Singapore? as part of the "Asia for Asians" Chinese domination doctrine) but they are built a bit like plastic (can't say for sure as I am not an engineer but they have that plastic crap look typical of Ch. products) and are loosing money. OTOH this means if you want to travel in Ch. you can do it on subsidized bullet trains (where your trip costs more than the fare you are paying) and if they complete this in the future it will be subsidized travel as well.

Yes China had originally put forth that plan. They had ruled out a extension to Chiang Mai and said Chiang Rai was a more likely candidate for an extension.

[northernjohn]

That means i will be dead by the time they get it operating,would have loved

to see it hurtling through the Thai country side,BUT what about road crossings

how are they going to solve that problem,as i am sure they will be many drivers,

like today who think they can beat the train !

regards worgeordie

That was one of the beautiful points in the Chinese proposed High speed rail through Thailand. They were going to keep it away from cities as much as possible and put in bridges to avoid the highway crossings. Of course their would be Rural road crossings but they would not have the traffic highways do.

[lostsoul49]

OK... So this budget has been slashed back to get approval, but in reality like most big budget projects will almost certainly over-run its estimates probably will be doubled. But let's be kind and say in the end it all costs around 500 Bn.

Next we will gauge passenger take up... Estimate 1000 passengers per trip again we are being generous here.

At 1000 baht a ticket, that will be 1 Mn baht per trip turnover.

Costs including fuel, staff, maintenance, taxes etc should easily soak up 50% leaving a 50% margin... again I am probably being more than generous here.

That gives the carrier a cool 500,000 baht per trip margin per trip.

Let's say there are 4 trips to BKK - CM and 4 trips CM - BKK daily 24/7 and 365 days a year.

That's 4 Mn a day profits.

That tells us break even point will take 125,000 days at the above assumptions.

It's only going to take 342 years to pull back the investment.

Even if I was going to be a lot more generous and quadruple all the figures it is still going to come out at 86 years, and the whole system will be long gone and humans will likely all be commuting in personal hover cars that run on water (Jetson style).

But then again we will likely see the first derailment in the first 12 months and that will be the end of that.

[Lakegeneve]

Lets work on metropolitan transportation first, more bts and mrt lines.

Take 5 mins to read post #295 in this thread, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/406991-the-new-skytrain/page-11

[ClutchClark]

I really don't understand how these high speed rail projects can pay their own way. 1000 baht in today's dollars is not far off what low cost carriers do to Chiang Mai. How can this pay for itself?

The goal of this project has nothing to do with the feasibility or commercial need for a HSR.

The goal of this project is to make certain influential and wealthy people even wealthier.

And they will certainly accomplish that goal if this project is allowed to continue.

[Lakegeneve]

That means i will be dead by the time they get it operating,would have loved

to see it hurtling through the Thai country side,BUT what about road crossings

how are they going to solve that problem,as i am sure they will be many drivers,

like today who think they can beat the train !

regards worgeordie

Seriously?!?!?

What has every other country in the world that has high speed rail lines done in respect of road crossings?

............They don't have any!

[ClutchClark]

Completely disagree with this move by the Junta.

If Thailand cannot maintain slow speed trains they they won't be able to maintain high speed trains and the consequences will be disastrous.

I do not support this project; however, your comparison is not accurate.

The SRT infrastructure is 50-100 years old and the railcars are 30 years old.

It has been a seriously underfunded & chronically poorly maintained system for many, many decades.

Compare that against completely new technology, tracks, construction practices and trains.

For example, compare the existing the SRT to the SkyTrain.