MH17: Malaysia Airlines Plane Shot Down Near Ukraine Border

[SeaVisionBurma]

Off topic post removed

[Chicog]

Any bodies that might have traces of explosive and residue such as shrapnel that narrow down the exact weapon used will be cleaned before being returned.

Doesn't surprise me one bit.

This isn't some hollywood movie.

Who said it was?

You don't think they would sanitise the bodies to destroy evidence?

Why do you think they haven't handed them directly to the Ukrainians then?

[balo]

Yes looting has been going on , these people are like cruel animals. If they see anything of value they will just take it,

This would happen in any country in the world if a crash site was left unprotected, as horrible it is, it's not exclusive to any race or nationality and is as old as time immemorial.

Lockerbie springs to mind, plus every war in history and ongoing soldiers have looted and stolen from each other and innocent civilians. The UK is full of war trophies and collectibles, jewellery etc from Germany and mainland Europe pre 1945, Saddam era Iraqi memorabilia that regularly goes on ebay, where do you think it all came from?

We need to remember when we're sat in our ivory towers that Ukraine was already a poor country and now the people in that area are stuck in or fighting a civil war with a very uncertain future ahead, survival instincts will surely be what is leading most peoples judgment.

I'm guessing you've never been in that position before?

To call them 'animals' is wrong and says as much about you as the looting does about them.

I am not talkig about the local population go looting, I'm sure most Ukrainians living in that village have a sense of moral and know what's right or wrong. The real criminals with no moral or conscience , we all know who they are.

Sent from my SM-P601 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lovetotravel]

Excellent article summarizing this disaster. Also talks about how the rebels potentially got a missile launcher. What bothered me, is the number of planes shot down at relatively high altitude within days of this disaster. Should have been a warning not to fly in this area:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/ukraine-rebels-weapons/

[Scott]

A post with comments from another site have been removed. If you wish to use a news source, that is acceptable, posting comments from another site is not.

[Chicog]

Excellent article summarizing this disaster. Also talks about how the rebels potentially got a missile launcher. What bothered me, is the number of planes shot down at relatively high altitude within days of this disaster. Should have been a warning not to fly in this area:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/ukraine-rebels-weapons/

There was no reason to think anyone would shoot down a commercial airliner flying at 33,000 feet.

The equipment designed to bring down aircraft at this altitude can also tell the difference between an Antonov, an Suhkoi and a Boeing 777.

But you are right to a point. Now that terrorists have seen the publicity that can be got from an act like this, ICAO need to take a long, hard look at routes used over conflict zones where sophisticated weaponry is available.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Chicog

[MJCM]

Excellent article summarizing this disaster. Also talks about how the rebels potentially got a missile launcher. What bothered me, is the number of planes shot down at relatively high altitude within days of this disaster. Should have been a warning not to fly in this area:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/ukraine-rebels-weapons/

There was no reason to think anyone would shoot down a commercial airliner flying at 33,000 feet.

The equipment designed to bring down aircraft at this altitude can also tell the difference between an Antonov, an Suhkoi and a Boeing 777.

But you are right to a point. Now that terrorists have seen the publicity that can be got from an act like this, ICAO need to take a long, hard look at routes used over conflict zones where sophisticated weaponry is available.

Your wish is their command

http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/269377

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

[simple1]

Excellent article summarizing this disaster. Also talks about how the rebels potentially got a missile launcher. What bothered me, is the number of planes shot down at relatively high altitude within days of this disaster. Should have been a warning not to fly in this area:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/ukraine-rebels-weapons/

There was no reason to think anyone would shoot down a commercial airliner flying at 33,000 feet. The equipment designed to bring down aircraft at this altitude can also tell the difference between an Antonov, an Suhkoi and a Boeing 777.

But you are right to a point. Now that terrorists have seen the publicity that can be got from an act like this, ICAO need to take a long, hard look at routes used over conflict zones where sophisticated weaponry is available.

In addition to the quote and link below a ‘Janes’ specialist on ground to air missile technology has stated the SA11 does not have the capability to read civilian aircraft transponder emissions.

To function correctly, an SA-11 launcher, also known as a Buk, is supposed to be connected to a central radar command — as opposed to acting alone — to be certain of exactly what kind of aircraft it is shooting at. From the information that has come to light so far, the rebels don't appear to have such systems, said Pavel Felgenhauer, a respected defence columnist for Novaya Gazeta, a Moscow-based newspaper known for its critical coverage of Russian affairs.

"They could easily make a tragic mistake and shot down a passenger plane when indeed they wanted to shoot down a Ukrainian transport plane," he said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-missile-s-lack-of-radar-may-have-led-to-tragic-mistake-1.2712652

[Chicog]

Excellent article summarizing this disaster. Also talks about how the rebels potentially got a missile launcher. What bothered me, is the number of planes shot down at relatively high altitude within days of this disaster. Should have been a warning not to fly in this area:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/ukraine-rebels-weapons/

There was no reason to think anyone would shoot down a commercial airliner flying at 33,000 feet. The equipment designed to bring down aircraft at this altitude can also tell the difference between an Antonov, an Suhkoi and a Boeing 777.

But you are right to a point. Now that terrorists have seen the publicity that can be got from an act like this, ICAO need to take a long, hard look at routes used over conflict zones where sophisticated weaponry is available.

In addition to the quote and link below a ‘Janes’ specialist on ground to air missile technology has stated the SA11 does not have the capability to read civilian aircraft transponder emissions.

To function correctly, an SA-11 launcher, also known as a Buk, is supposed to be connected to a central radar command — as opposed to acting alone — to be certain of exactly what kind of aircraft it is shooting at. From the information that has come to light so far, the rebels don't appear to have such systems, said Pavel Felgenhauer, a respected defence columnist for Novaya Gazeta, a Moscow-based newspaper known for its critical coverage of Russian affairs.

"They could easily make a tragic mistake and shot down a passenger plane when indeed they wanted to shoot down a Ukrainian transport plane," he said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-missile-s-lack-of-radar-may-have-led-to-tragic-mistake-1.2712652

I've never thought for one minute that they intended to bring down a commercial airliner, but it does not excuse their actions.

If they didn't know what they were shooting at they should never have pressed the button.

[skippybangkok]

Prudence says don't walk in a garden where there is a known vicious pit bull

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Edited July 21, 2014 by skippybangkok

[laolover88]

Add this here, too!

Informed opinion here:

To all those wondering how the Americans claim to know what happened, try reading these Wiki references. Surface radar observations are not required.

MASINT

Space-Based Infrared System

Space Tracking and Surveillance System

Trumpet (satellite)

These systems would tell the US exactly where the missile was launched, track the missile in flight, observe the explosion, analyse the spectral traces of the missile efflux and the warhead detonation, and record the SAM radar emissions. The missile's speed and trajectory and the characteristics of the efflux, warhead and radar can all be used to identify the missile system.

With all this information to hand, you can understand why Obama was in a position to point the finger only hours after the news broke. The accident site will yield more information; explosive residues, missile parts, etc, and those will be the sticks with which the international community beats Russia in due course. The US will almost certainly keep its MASINT secret because:

1) Those who already know what happened (e.g. Putin) will merely have their knowledge of US MASINT capabilities enhanced;
2) Those who disbelieve everything the US says will just say the US is lying;
3) Those who believe the US don't actually need to see the evidence in order to trust what Obama said.

So I think there is little chance we'll ever see any of this highly-classified intelligence. But perhaps the conspiracy theorists might consider that the US case against the separatists is based on evidence more substantial than a few tweets, a Facebook post and a (allegedly) doctored telephone conversation.

Only problem, of course, is that "evidence more substantial" is subject to the possibility of all kinds of chicanery!

[Chicog]

Is anyone in any doubt that the US and others have satellites pointed at Eastern Ukraine that can almost spot a bug on a windshield and provide a clear picture day and night?

[MJCM]

pssst that should be kept a secret

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

[Pakboong]

A key element in virtually all conspiracy theories starts with a belief in a prefabricated narrative. It seems as if one may be in play here.

[Chicog]

A key element in virtually all conspiracy theories starts with a belief in a prefabricated narrative. It seems as if one may be in play here.

I don't agree. The key element is the slightest of information vacuums. Their little imaginations then run riot and proceed to fill it with their madcap ideas, no matter how deluded they are.

[Dutchbike]

What a bunch of............

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10979018/MH17-Russian-rebel-leaders-right-hand-man-was-sacked-from-job-as-undertaker-for-stealing.html

[Chicog]

pssst that should be kept a secret

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

That was probably what they had 10 years ago.

[Dutchbike]

what the .... stealing a ........ Ring???

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/redneckrooftring.html

[Chicog]

Not unexpectedly, the Ukrainians have taken global revulsion over the actions of the rebels as an excuse to launch a military offensive to drive them out of Donetsk.

That's really not going to help, as it gives them the perfect excuse to say that the Ukrainians "destroyed evidence".

Bye Bye black boxes?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Chicog

[lovetotravel]

what the .... stealing a ........ Ring???

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/redneckrooftring.html

There have been several reports of the rebels stealing items from the victims. I seem to remember one rebel saying quite a few now have new watches.

Sick.

[Chicog]

On the subject of sickening.....

LONDON – U.K. 24-hour news channel Sky News was forced to apologize after a reporter during its coverage of the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 crash in eastern Ukraine went through the luggage of a dead passenger.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/malaysia-airlines-sky-news-apologizes-719894?

[lovetotravel]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28399670

This is sick. You've got video of the rebels going through the victims belongings. How horrible.

[Cambodger]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28399670

This is sick. You've got video of the rebels going through the victims belongings. How horrible.

That would happen in any country anywhere in the world if you had a unprotected crash site.

Not even factoring in the ongoing civil war thats raging in Ukraine.

[Dutchbike]

At least some of the miners are honest, giving a wallet with creditcards and documents to the BBC reporter in that video.

[Dutchbike]

The first Dutch forensic experts before entering the "deathtrain"

Touching picture

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/mh17forexp51500.html

[lovetotravel]

At least some of the miners are honest, giving a wallet with creditcards and documents to the BBC reporter in that video.

Agreed. But if you look closely, no paper money.

[Traveling Sailor]

what the .... stealing a ........ Ring???

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/redneckrooftring.html

Yes, and much, much more according to various TV news channels.

It seems the Russian backed rebels are not allowing access to the crash site until they finish plundering, removing bodies and destroying evidence.

If all countries that had a passenger on that flight were to grow big brass ones and co-ordinate, that would be wonderful and amazing. Each country could send in a 10 or 20 man, NAVY SEAL quality team and wrest control of the crash site from the rebels. I'm sure the Ukrainian Government would welcome the help.

However, I doubt if that will happen. The Western countries have turned into a bunch of wimps. More interested in their commercial interests than "doing the right thing". Oh how I long for a Teddy Roosevelt. "Walk softly and carry a big stick"

[Dutchbike]

At least some of the miners are honest, giving a wallet with creditcards and documents to the BBC reporter in that video.

Agreed. But if you look closely, no paper money.

Let's give this guy the benifit of the doubt, can't imagine that somebody first take out any cash money and then hand over the wallet in front of a BBC camera crew.....

I think that miners ( volunteers) did a lot of good work collecting the bodies and belongings etc etc There are good people around even in Russia.

[GentlemanJim]

The looting of bodies is horrendous, but remember it is also common place in road traffic accidents here in Thailand. I was told by a guy that used to work on the self appointed 'rescue' teams they would search peoples clothes, bags, bodies and cars for valuables.

The only thing that could have stopped this display of morally bereft disgraceful conduct was decisive action by the Ukrainians to secure the crash site. So much vital evidence has been tampered with or looted that I doubt investigators will find out much more than we already know - it was shot down.

The murder/tragedy is now nothing more than a political toy being used by all and sundry to further their own political agenda's.

[Chicog]

The looting of bodies is horrendous, but remember it is also common place in road traffic accidents here in Thailand. I was told by a guy that used to work on the self appointed 'rescue' teams they would search peoples clothes, bags, bodies and cars for valuables.

The only thing that could have stopped this display of morally bereft disgraceful conduct was decisive action by the Ukrainians to secure the crash site. So much vital evidence has been tampered with or looted that I doubt investigators will find out much more than we already know - it was shot down.

The murder/tragedy is now nothing more than a political toy being used by all and sundry to further their own political agenda's.

I don't call the families wanting their loved ones back for burial, along with precious personal effects, a "political agenda".