MH17: Malaysia Airlines Plane Shot Down Near Ukraine Border

[krisb]

What the hell was it doing flying over the Ukraine

Malaysia air is in big trouble flying over a no g zone.

[slipperylobster]

What the hell was it doing flying over the Ukraine

Malaysia air is in big trouble flying over a no g zone.

I believe the flight path was approved, and was not forbidden.

That is being changed.

[slipperylobster]

Aeroflot and Malaysia Airlines has the same colors; white blue and red. It could be Ukraine who want to teach Mother Russia a lesson, but make an identification mistake.

If the plane (cruising at 33,000 feet) was shot down by a surface-to-air missile, would that level of detail been seen?

No...colors are not picked up by radar. Missiles were probably armed, and launched by human hands after radar picked it up. Let us hope it was not a self-automated launch..if that is even possible.

Edited July 18, 2014 by slipperylobster

[slipperylobster]

Anybody in ATOC on the ground would be monitoring commerical radio frequencies. A glance at the radar, and a call to verify this aircraft from at least one other location, would have been accomplished.

This seems grossly deliberate or perhaps grossly inept.

Sad. Perhaps the aircraft was used as a pawn to draw in international intervention?

Sorry to speculate...but I cannot think of anything but that.

[lostsoul49]

What the hell was it doing flying over the Ukraine

Malaysia air is in big trouble flying over a no g zone.

I believe the flight path was approved, and was not forbidden.

That is being changed.

There was an urgent advisory that went out from the Brits to avoid the area but only an advisory that most took notice of. Alas flying the most direct route saves money on fuel so it was obviously ignored.

Sky news also interestingly named Thai airways as also using that flight path, which I think will now change.

[Mosha]

1st flew 17th July 1997 17 years ago. MH17

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b777-28411.htm

[lostsoul49]

Anybody in ATOC on the ground would be monitoring commerical radio frequencies. A glance at the radar, and a call to verify this aircraft from at least one other location, would have been accomplished.

This seems grossly deliberate or perhaps grossly inept.

Sad. Perhaps the aircraft was used as a pawn to draw in international intervention?

Sorry to speculate...but I cannot think of anything but that.

You have the right to speculate.

I have had the same feelings all night.

It is highly unlikely to be a mistake, there are just too many ways to detect it as a civilian aircraft even to rebels.

Until this incident, there were still many airlines using that route and so commercial flights would be constantly getting spotted. This one didn't exactly just come out of the blue.

Logic seems to point more to the fact it was deliberately targeted as you noted, possibly to use as a serious game changer, and the only side that comes to mind are NOT the Russians.

OK they are showing a posting from the Russian version of facebook that some rebel glorifying the fact a plane had been brought down, which was later deleted.. But it was only some guy revelling in the moment and proves nothing that he or who he supports were involved.

[chooka]

23 Americans onboard, which gives the US a reason to ramp up... The fat is in the fire now... May all 295 souls RIP...

Not sure if there were any Americans on the plane.

(Newsroom America) -- Malaysia Airlines has released the nationalities of the passengers on board Flight MH17 which was shot down over Ukraine by a surface to air missile.

The Boeing 777 crashed near the village of Grabovo, which is under the control of separatist rebels. Media reports point to the plane being shot down by a surface to air missile such as a Buk surface-to-air missile system, otherwise known as as SA-11 Gadfly.

The nationalities of 47 passengers have not yet been determined.

Malaysia Airlines' European chief Huib Gorter told a news conference that of the passengers that have been identified there were:

154 Dutch nationals,

27 Australians,

23 Malaysians,

11 Indonesians

Six Britons,

four Germans,

four Belgians,

three from the Philippines

one Canadian

All 15 of the crew were Malaysian

http://www.newsroomamerica.com/story/432482/nationalities_of_passengers_on_downed_malaysian_airlines_flight_mh17_released_.html

[White Christmas13]

What the hell was it doing flying over the Ukraine

Malaysia air is in big trouble flying over a no g zone.

I believe the flight path was approved, and was not forbidden.

That is being changed.

Correct, it was not forbidden to fly this route most airlines did

including Lufthansa I just came back from Frankfurt only a few

days back and flew exactly the same route and I don't feel to

good right now

[harrry]

If it is indeed Russia that shot the plane down, then every country in the world needs to immediately apprehend all Russian citizens that are in their country pending further investigation.

Shooting down a civilian aircraft is tantamount to declaration of war and every citizen of a country that declares war on a peaceful nation is in breach of every convention since the Geneva convention.

DELETED POST.

They would be wrong, this isnt likely to be a religious hate based act this is a tragedy and it would be better not to try and turn it into one at this time.

I really dont understand why Malaysia airlines were flying over a very active war zone. There has been warnings.

Air operators around the world last night imposed a no fly-zone over Ukraine as questions grew over why passenger jets were still flying over the war zone three months after pilots were warned to avoid it.

Flights were urgently re-routed around the region potentially putting hours onto scheduled journeys and causing delays.

However, aviation safety authorities in the United States and Europe warned pilots in April about potential risks flying in or near Ukraine airspace.

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration issued a "special notice" regarding Ukrainian airspace advising airlines to "exercise extreme caution due to the continuing potential for instability."

International aviation agencies in April also had warned pilots and airlines to avoid the Ukranian airspace.

Its a tragedy but there has to be an enquiry why any civillain aircraft was over that region at all given the risks. Profit before passenger safety seems the most likely reason... so sad

Roo it is not the International operators that imposed a ban it was the the Ukraine ATC that closed airspace above 33000 feet after this incident. It was already closed below that by them.

Edited July 18, 2014 by harrry

[skippybangkok]

Very clearly stupidity. Pink line (attached) is the shortest route possible between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur. Shot down just south of it ....... Who flies over a crisis zone with low level army grunts armed with air to ground missiles ? must save fuel, must save fuel, must save fuel. .....

Absolutely preventable. MAS management obviously has a "tidak apa" attitude ( she'll be right )

RIP

Screenshot 2014-07-17 23.29.05.png

Many airlines flying that route would and were. Other airlines were on that route. The Ulraine authorities only restriction was stay above FL310.

Yep - many stupid people in this world. Guess Malaysian Airlines is among them

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[harryfrompattaya]

What the hell was it doing flying over the Ukraine

Malaysia air is in big trouble flying over a no g zone.

I believe the flight path was approved, and was not forbidden.

That is being changed.

There was an urgent advisory that went out from the Brits to avoid the area but only an advisory that most took notice of. Alas flying the most direct route saves money on fuel so it was obviously ignored.

Sky news also interestingly named Thai airways as also using that flight path, which I think will now change.

Flying over saves fuel

[harrry]

What the hell was it doing flying over the Ukraine

Malaysia air is in big trouble flying over a no g zone.

I believe the flight path was approved, and was not forbidden.

That is being changed.

There was an urgent advisory that went out from the Brits to avoid the area but only an advisory that most took notice of. Alas flying the most direct route saves money on fuel so it was obviously ignored.

Sky news also interestingly named Thai airways as also using that flight path, which I think will now change.

Flying over saves fuel

tg923 is currently flying over Afganistan at 35000 ft. as is EVA61. SIA334 has just overflown Iran QF2 is overflying Iraq. Should all conflict zones be avoided?

Edited July 18, 2014 by harrry

[JUDAS]

Waiting for our European members to blame this on America and start ranting as usual...

Keep waiting as I'm sure most of us would not attempt a pathetic point scoring exercise off the back of 295 deaths.

[Rooo]

Roo it is not the International operators that imposed a ban it was the the Ukraine ATC that closed airspace above 33000 feet after this incident. It was already closed below that by them.

What does that have to do with me?

[Chris Lawrence]

News reports said above the no fly zone, above 32,000ft. Not much hardware can get this high?

Very sad for all concerned. RIP.

[Jingthing]

It was definitely a missile.

(That has been confirmed now.)

The geopolitical implications are much more significant than just any plane crash:

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/17/zakaria-malaysia-airlines-crash-a-major-international-incident/?hpt=hp_t1

Zakaria: Malaysia Airlines crash a major international incident

Edited July 18, 2014 by Jingthing

[Thunder26]

Any airline that flies over that area do not take the huge risk into account. Pro Russian rebels have been shooting airplanes over that area for months. Almost every week Ukrainian military or freight planes were shot down. What do they expect from flying over that area? These airlines are so clueless that makes me so angry!

[Chris Lawrence]

A number of passengers were on route to the 2014 AIDS Conference in Melbourne. This starts on the 20th July:

STATEMENT ON MALAYSIAN FLIGHT MH 17

Friday, July 18, 2014

The International AIDS Society (IAS) today expresses its sincere sadness at receiving news that a number of colleagues and friends en route to attend the 20th International AIDS Conference taking place in Melbourne, Australia, were on board the Malaysian Airlines MH17 flight that has crashed over Ukraine earlier today.

At this incredibly sad and sensitive time the IAS stands with our international family and sends condolences to the loved ones of those who have been lost to this tragedy.

[Roadman]

Its Ukraniane separatists who are to blame.

They had Russian supplied Bak surface to air missiles that they had success with bringing down Ukrainian military aircraft in last few days and had been bragging about with social media tweets. There is a series of tweets between a Russian Army Major supporting the separatists and two of the separatists were skiteing that they had brought down another "bird" and records the tweets going through the identification of realising that it was not another Ukrainian military plane but a civilian plane. The tweets were then pulled. But not before a news agency had recorded it all. Would explain to that if it was the Russians then they would have had the backup technology to do the simple thing that every hunter is taught "identify your target before you pull the trigger or push that button". The Americans from what I understand have already identified that it was a missile fired from within Ukraine. These separatist ass holes had the rockets and launcher but did not have the back up tech to ID their target. Putin has already opened his over sized mouth and porned the blame onto the Ukraine Army but he is going to have to do some serious ass covering when the full story breaks.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Roadman

[harrry]

Roo it is not the International operators that imposed a ban it was the the Ukraine ATC that closed airspace above 33000 feet after this incident. It was already closed below that by them.

What does that have to do with me?

You posted that the international operators imposed the ban. Whether that post was deleted by you or someone else does not matter. You know what you wrote and that this is a reply even if the members do not.

[MJCM]

News reports said above the no fly zone, above 32,000ft. Not much hardware can get this high?

Very sad for all concerned. RIP.

Sorry, but the Missile system apparently used is capable of reaching +/- 25km (which is double that)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system#Basic_missile_system_specifications

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

Edited July 18, 2014 by MJCM

[kkup]

RIP to all victims

[simple1]

A detailed article that reviews previous restricted airspace warnings / guidance for the airlines operating in the region, who has management of flight corridors in Europe and so on at...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-mh17-flying-just-above-restricted-airspace

RIP for all the murdered passengers and crew.

[MrWorldwide]

Any airline that flies over that area do not take the huge risk into account. Pro Russian rebels have been shooting airplanes over that area for months. Almost every week Ukrainian military or freight planes were shot down. What do they expect from flying over that area? These airlines are so clueless that makes me so angry!

Might be time to get a grip on that anger - all the reports I've seen indicate that the plane was flying through a widely accepted 'highway' used by dozens of other airlines : there was absolutely no provocation at all. The international carriers transport hundreds of thousands of people all over the world every day without incident - 298 people lose their lives in a deliberate act of mindless killing and your angry with the airlines ? Surely Putin and his little crusade are the root cause of this, not pilots simply doing their jobs on the routes assigned to them.

[stevehaigh]

If it is indeed Russia that shot the plane down, then every country in the world needs to immediately apprehend all Russian citizens that are in their country pending further investigation.

Shooting down a civilian aircraft is tantamount to declaration of war and every citizen of a country that declares war on a peaceful nation is in breach of every convention since the Geneva convention.

every Russian is no more responisble for what their government does than I am for what the American government does. if I was, i should have been shot already!

[MrWorldwide]

Gotta love Vlad's take on this - it's all Ukraine's fault, apparently. How dare they defend themselves against separatists, right, Vlad old mate ?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/vladimir-putin-blames-ukraine-for-mh17-tragedy-20140718-zua9b.html

A real piece of work, but I guess a career in the KGB will really finetune a functioning sociopath's warm and cuddly nature.

[chooka]

'We just shot down a plane': Audio allegedly of pro-Russian forces discussing MH17 shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwbarKj4SJY&feature=player_detailpage

[Woodsie888]

Very clearly stupidity. Pink line (attached) is the shortest route possible between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur. Shot down just south of it ....... Who flies over a crisis zone with low level army grunts armed with air to ground missiles ? must save fuel, must save fuel, must save fuel. .....

Absolutely preventable. MAS management obviously has a "tidak apa" attitude ( she'll be right )

RIP

Screenshot 2014-07-17 23.29.05.png

It's not the first time MAS have taken risks to save fuel either. Remember them landing at LHR a few times with a lot less fuel on board than the required amount? They requested urgent permission to land a few time due to low fuel levels and couldn't wait any longer for clearance to land. They were told if they persisted, they would lose their LHR slots.

[bra]

As has been pointed out by some other posters the route that MH17 was on at the time was closed at 32000 ft and below by the Ukraine Civil Aviation Authorities. As MH17 was flying at 33000 ft it was not in breach of any requirements - other airlines were also flying on this route. After the shoot down of MH17 this route and some others were closed at all altitudes by Ukraine.

The US has identified by satellite surveillance that a surface to air missile (SAM) was fired and also impacted (or detonated close to) a target. They advise that the actual locations will be confirmed later.

The BUK Russian made SAM launcher was also supplied to Ukraine, and some press reports advise seeing some of these launchers in the rebel held areas. Experience and expertise is required to operate the launcher and hit a target. This could come from the Russians, or possibly Ukraine rebels who had previous experience with the Ukrainian armed forces. What really happened of course remains to be confirmed. Personally I think it most likely was a dreadful accident - they thought they were targeting a military aircraft, but there is really no excuse to shoot down an aircraft in level flight with its transponder return showing its civil call sign (MAS017) on a published air route.

Yes aircraft do fly over disputed territories. Almost all flights from SE Asia to Europe fly over Afghanistan (there were 20 aircraft of various airlines over Afghanistan when I looked at Flightradar 24 a few minutes ago. However the SAMs that the Taliban use cant reach above about 10000 to 15000 ft - so the high flyers are safe.

I suggest that posters stop the blame game until the investigations have been carried out.