US chides Russia over Ukraine plane crash

[Scott]

Off-topic posts have been deleted. Please stick to the topic, which is about the airliner crashing and the circumstances surrounding it.

[Pralaad]

I find it extraordinary that you keep denying the strong likelihood that the pro-Russian separatists are at fault. On site media reports that the separatists blocked access to international investigators. Locals looting bodies, unable to even recover the bodies and so on even though with armed separatists in control of the crash site. I believe I am correct, not a word of condemnation from you

It has only just been reported that the separatists have permitted a lock down of the area of the crash site for recovery of bodies, gathering of evidence etc. One would think this would have been their first response, not after two days of international pressure.

I agree with others more likely than not of an accidental shoot down of a civilian passenger aircraft, but the separatists and the Russian government have done themselves no favours, to date, in the manner of handling this tragedy

Yes the Western propaganda machine is in full swing, i do not find it surprising for you think other wise.

One poster has presented all the evidence that US knows and has the evidence, which for someone reason they have not produced.

You know and all your sources know, so what is there to investigate?

Russia and Putin has done nothing inappropriate at all, if anything, blame for turning a tragedy into a freak show should be attributed to US.

How rebels handling the situation has very little to do with Russia or Putin, no matter how hard US tries to spin it.

How Ukraine handling situation has everything to do with US, so instead of offering truce period to investigate, Ukraine has intensified the bombardment. Now who benefits from that?

May be if US uses its spy satellite and releases evidence of Putin 'supporting" the rebels, only then you would have some claim

Lets see how it plans out for them in the coming days

PS. as i have already posted, Ukraine has downed passenger plane in 2001, which all US media failed to mention, so naturally US needs to blame Russia, otherwise it would appear that US supports a regime which shoots down civilian planes

Don't know about US media coverage, but the US did assist the Russians with investigations & indeed pointed to Ukraine military firing of a test missile as the cause of the crash that the Russians initially dismissed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

Great Google skills

But you have missed the point.

Ukraine past "experience" downing the plane has not even being mentioned in the current tragedy, nor has it even been considered that Ukraine is capable, which they clearly are.

and IF media and US was objective, you do not think it should or would have been mentioned?rhetorical question, no need to answer

[Credo]

It's relatively simple. The plane was downed in Pro-Russian controlled territory. It was downed by Russian made equipment and it required a level of sophistication to fire it. The site is being controlled by the rebels and their minders in Mother Russia.

Had the Ukrainian military snuck in to fire a missile as Neversure suggests, I think they would rather take out the rebels rather than a commercial airliner.

[Credo]

I am quite sure that the current administration would agree that the EU should take the lead. The EU, however, doesn't usually do this.

The role of the US in this crash should be second string and should have to do with technical aspects, in part because it is a Boeing airplane.

[Sealbash]

Pralaad,

Read what Aljazeera is writing about this incident and they sure are not a Western propaganda machine in full swing

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/19/ukraine-malaysiaseparatist.html

I am not quite sure what point you trying to make?

Rebels behavior has nothing to do with my posts.

As i said, may be it was the rebels, may be it was not.

But blaming Russia before even knowing the fact is the US propaganda, who is leading the pack, even though it had little to do with US.

If anything one would expect EU to lead.considering the location of the tragedy

So why is the EU not leading? Do possible gas delivery considerations have anything to do with this? Russian media is state controlled. Western media has investigative journalists, who are also not adverse to reporting shortcomings or errors of their respective governments.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Pralaad]

I am quite sure that the current administration would agree that the EU should take the lead. The EU, however, doesn't usually do this.

The role of the US in this crash should be second string and should have to do with technical aspects, in part because it is a Boeing airplane.

Would you agree, US should have kept its mouth shut to deal with a tragedy before pointing fingers?

Would you agree US should have kept its mouth shut before an investigation took place?

Would you agree IF US kept its mouth shut, Russia would be more helpful?

Would you agree EU did not take the lead because EU does not know and wanted to investigate before laying blame and pointing fingers?

Would you agree US has been busy convincing EU to blame Russia?

Would you agree EU is still not convinced, just because of US said so and US past track record of "KNOWING"?

Would you agree Ukraine has been just as vocal as US?while most others have not

Would you agree Ukraine has not acted with grace and did not offer truce?

Would you agree Ukraine ignored US calls for truce to investigate?

Would you consider that it might be in Ukraine interest to "set up" rebels since they have no luck for months now dealing with them.? and do not have the money or the manpower or the weaponry to keep it going

Would you agree that Russia would not be so stupid to want all the attention from the rest of the world?

Would you agree Ukraine DOES want the attention from the rest of the world?because they can not win.

Ukraine keeps calling rebels terrorist, only rebels are not attacking Ukraine or Kiev, they are defending their own

[Pralaad]

Pralaad,

Read what Aljazeera is writing about this incident and they sure are not a Western propaganda machine in full swing

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/19/ukraine-malaysiaseparatist.html

I am not quite sure what point you trying to make?

Rebels behavior has nothing to do with my posts.

As i said, may be it was the rebels, may be it was not.

But blaming Russia before even knowing the fact is the US propaganda, who is leading the pack, even though it had little to do with US.

If anything one would expect EU to lead.considering the location of the tragedy

So why is the EU not leading? Do possible gas delivery considerations have anything to do with this? Russian media is state controlled. Western media has investigative journalists, who are also not adverse to reporting shortcomings or errors of their respective governments.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

And do you think US leading and EU following do not have gas considerations?

Ukraine has not paid gas bill and has been cut off even though EU provided money for that. That did not bother EU?

Of course it did, but EU had a taste of lying Ukrainian administration, they even made it known publicly(sorry no link, but was all over the news, when talks failed. EU stated that Ukraine was unreasonable and impossible to deal with)

The difference is, for EU Ukraine and Russia is all a reality, for US its a political game

[joecoolfrog]

Sealbash

Europe , in particular Germany , are heavily reliant on Russian gaz , hence the initial reluctance to pressurise Putin. In the last 24 hours though The Germans , Dutch and Brits have expressed their deep concerns and the EEC and UN will join the party before much longer.

[NeverSure]

I am quite sure that the current administration would agree that the EU should take the lead. The EU, however, doesn't usually do this.

The role of the US in this crash should be second string and should have to do with technical aspects, in part because it is a Boeing airplane.

Would you agree, US should have kept its mouth shut to deal with a tragedy before pointing fingers?

Would you agree US should have kept its mouth shut before an investigation took place?

Would you agree IF US kept its mouth shut, Russia would be more helpful?

Would you agree EU did not take the lead because EU does not know and wanted to investigate before laying blame and pointing fingers?

Would you agree US has been busy convincing EU to blame Russia?

Would you agree EU is still not convinced, just because of US said so and US past track record of "KNOWING"?

Would you agree Ukraine has been just as vocal as US?while most others have not

Would you agree Ukraine has not acted with grace and did not offer truce?

Would you agree Ukraine ignored US calls for truce to investigate?

Would you consider that it might be in Ukraine interest to "set up" rebels since they have no luck for months now dealing with them.? and do not have the money or the manpower or the weaponry to keep it going

Would you agree that Russia would not be so stupid to want all the attention from the rest of the world?

Would you agree Ukraine DOES want the attention from the rest of the world?because they can not win.

-snip-

No, No, and No.

[dutchisaan]

@pralaad.

You keep writing about that the western press is not objective. However it is very clear that you are not objective.

So start reading some other media. The whole world is reporting about this tragady,not only the Russia press.

The good thing about tv is that the members come from all parts of the world, speak different languages andbecause of this read different media.

Here on tv we share and can discuss this.

We can agree not to agree with a opinion from a member, but at least show some respect.

There are people like me, who has a personal intrest in this subject and use tv to get information to media what we otherwise wiill skip, or don't find because we don't speak or write the language.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[rijb]

Condolences to you and your country.

[Credo]

I am quite sure that the current administration would agree that the EU should take the lead. The EU, however, doesn't usually do this.

The role of the US in this crash should be second string and should have to do with technical aspects, in part because it is a Boeing airplane.

Would you agree, US should have kept its mouth shut to deal with a tragedy before pointing fingers?

Would you agree US should have kept its mouth shut before an investigation took place?

Would you agree IF US kept its mouth shut, Russia would be more helpful?

Would you agree EU did not take the lead because EU does not know and wanted to investigate before laying blame and pointing fingers?

Would you agree US has been busy convincing EU to blame Russia?

Would you agree EU is still not convinced, just because of US said so and US past track record of "KNOWING"?

Would you agree Ukraine has been just as vocal as US?while most others have not

Would you agree Ukraine has not acted with grace and did not offer truce?

Would you agree Ukraine ignored US calls for truce to investigate?

Would you consider that it might be in Ukraine interest to "set up" rebels since they have no luck for months now dealing with them.? and do not have the money or the manpower or the weaponry to keep it going

Would you agree that Russia would not be so stupid to want all the attention from the rest of the world?

Would you agree Ukraine DOES want the attention from the rest of the world?because they can not win.

Ukraine keeps calling rebels terrorist, only rebels are not attacking Ukraine or Kiev, they are defending their own

No, I do not agree with you. Russia is not cooperative in many areas, their obstinate behavior has nothing to do with the US. The US may be an excuse (you seem to be using it), but if they kept their 'mouth' shut, would the Russian media be lying like they are? I doubt it.

[IAMSOBAD]

Some people are so brainwashed by lies that when facts and truths are presented they still cannot believe because of their hatred or bias. The truth will set you free. Cover ups never work in these days of hi tech.

[IAMSOBAD]

I am quite sure that the current administration would agree that the EU should take the lead. The EU, however, doesn't usually do this.

The role of the US in this crash should be second string and should have to do with technical aspects, in part because it is a Boeing airplane.

Would you agree, US should have kept its mouth shut to deal with a tragedy before pointing fingers?

Would you agree US should have kept its mouth shut before an investigation took place?

Would you agree IF US kept its mouth shut, Russia would be more helpful?

Would you agree EU did not take the lead because EU does not know and wanted to investigate before laying blame and pointing fingers?

Would you agree US has been busy convincing EU to blame Russia?

Would you agree EU is still not convinced, just because of US said so and US past track record of "KNOWING"?

Would you agree Ukraine has been just as vocal as US?while most others have not

Would you agree Ukraine has not acted with grace and did not offer truce?

Would you agree Ukraine ignored US calls for truce to investigate?

Would you consider that it might be in Ukraine interest to "set up" rebels since they have no luck for months now dealing with them.? and do not have the money or the manpower or the weaponry to keep it going

Would you agree that Russia would not be so stupid to want all the attention from the rest of the world?

Would you agree Ukraine DOES want the attention from the rest of the world?because they can not win.

Ukraine keeps calling rebels terrorist, only rebels are not attacking Ukraine or Kiev, they are defending their own

NO...I do not agree. The families of the dead DO NOT agree.

[MW72]

Great Google skills

But you have missed the point.

Ukraine past "experience" downing the plane has not even being mentioned in the current tragedy, nor has it even been considered that Ukraine is capable, which they clearly are.

and IF media and US was objective, you do not think it should or would have been mentioned?rhetorical question, no need to answer

BBC are mentioning it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361223

A history of passenger planes shot down.

No need to answer

[IAMSOBAD]

Dutch PM...Australian PM just on CNN.They agree with Obama that Russia is doing a cover up. Also I saw the masked soldiers take off their masks and laugh into the camera while standing over dead bodies. Barbarians with guns and now missile launchers. The civilized world MUST respond.

Edited July 20, 2014 by IAMSOBAD

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply deleted.

[siampolee]

the Russian bear is still as vicious as ever it was under the yolk of communism only now it is called '' glasnost.'' this particular brand of glasnost is nothing more than an image reflected from a distorting mirror.

Remember please that the word ''Pravda'' means ''Russian Truth.''

Well in Russian fine, however under communism it was and still is a total travesty of ''Russian Truth.''

Do any of you really think that communism is dead?

Putin and his cronies have just dressed up their communist dogma in a more fashionable and more visually acceptable suit nothing more nothing less.

Europe has let its self become the classic Russian Hostage for its access to Russian gas supplies, thus in truth Europe is powerless to act against Putin.

American interests will take precedent over political action or economic actions, we are all well aware that America will huff and puff but do nothing else.

American foreign policy is aimed at one region only and is truth be known manipulated by a group with only their own national and ethic interests at heart.

Sadly these hapless victims of this barbaric crime like their families will not find their cause followed up.

Take note of the resultant actions in similar events over the years, not one case of justice being served have we seen,Please don't hold your breath because true to form nothing will change concerning this latest barbaric crime.

Edited July 20, 2014 by siampolee

[Jingthing]

Coverup in progress:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/07/20/eb-labott-mh17-buk-back-to-russia.cnn.html

[mrtoad]

the Russian bear is still as vicious as ever it was under the yolk of communism only now it is called '' glasnost.'' this particular brand of glasnost is nothing more than an image reflected from a distorting mirror.

Remember please that the word ''Pravda'' means ''Russian Truth.''

Well in Russian fine, however under communism it was and still is a total travesty of ''Russian Truth.''

Do any of you really think that communism is dead?

Putin and his cronies have just dressed up their communist dogma in a more fashionable and more visually acceptable suit nothing more nothing less.

Europe has let its self become the classic Russian Hostage for its access to Russian gas supplies, thus in truth Europe is powerless to act against Putin.

American interests will take precedent over political action or economic actions, we are all well aware that America will huff and puff but do nothing else.

American foreign policy is aimed at one region only and is truth be known manipulated by a group with only their own national and ethic interests at heart.

Sadly these hapless victims of this barbaric crime like their families will not find their cause followed up.

Take note of the resultant actions in similar events over the years, not one case of justice being served have we seen,Please don't hold your breath because true to form nothing will change concerning this latest barbaric crime.

I am sadly out of likes, but this is a pretty accurate summary of what will happen.

Nothing.

[rijb]

I have one. But, you'll have to share it.

[simple1]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Dutch PM...Australian PM just on CNN.They agree with Obama that Russia is doing a cover up. Also I saw the masked soldiers take off their masks and laugh into the camera while standing over dead bodies. Barbarians with guns and now missile launchers. The civilized world MUST respond.

What! They actually took his mask of and laughed into the camera while standing over dead bodies!

I cant imagine any soldiers from this 'civilized world' that you speak of doing such a thing...

Just ignore the dozens of videos of them in Afganistan and Iraq (and dont recall those Abu Ghraib photos) of them doing exactly that and much worse, that are all over the internet.

What do you think the civilized response to these 'Barbarians' from the 'civilized world' should be? Ground invasion? Bombs from the sky?

Should it be more harsh a response than what the US received for shooting down Iran Air 655?

Not justifing disrespect for enemy dead, but terrible events occur in combat that sometimes are followed up by military justice reviews; justice to a small degree.

Those killed onboard MH17 were completely innocent civilians. Do you not think that the pro seperatists who claim they are acting honorable by protecting locals, who identify themselves as Russian, need to demonstrate by their deeds they actually are honorable people. Right now the reported pro seperatist actions at the crash site, with apparent immunity provided by the Russian government, are the antithesis of honor, contributing to minimal hope of justice for the victims.

Edited July 20, 2014 by simple1

[Pralaad]

@pralaad.

You keep writing about that the western press is not objective. However it is very clear that you are not objective.

So start reading some other media. The whole world is reporting about this tragady,not only the Russia press.

The good thing about tv is that the members come from all parts of the world, speak different languages andbecause of this read different media.

Here on tv we share and can discuss this.

We can agree not to agree with a opinion from a member, but at least show some respect.

There are people like me, who has a personal intrest in this subject and use tv to get information to media what we otherwise wiill skip, or don't find because we don't speak or write the language.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Do you read , speak or write Russian ?

The answer is a no. So how would you call yourself objective when all your sources of information are from one side and that side has no access to crash site and either making up facts or relying on what Ukraine has said .

[joecoolfrog]

Praalad

So are you suggesting the Russian Media have access to the crash site ?

[dutchisaan]

@pralaad.

You keep writing about that the western press is not objective. However it is very clear that you are not objective.

So start reading some other media. The whole world is reporting about this tragady,not only the Russia press.

The good thing about tv is that the members come from all parts of the world, speak different languages andbecause of this read different media.

Here on tv we share and can discuss this.

We can agree not to agree with a opinion from a member, but at least show some respect.

There are people like me, who has a personal intrest in this subject and use tv to get information to media what we otherwise wiill skip, or don't find because we don't speak or write the language.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Do you read , speak or write Russian ?

The answer is a no. So how would you call yourself objective when all your sources of information are from one side and that side has no access to crash site and either making up facts or relying on what Ukraine has said .

So what you say is that everything the Russian media tells you is true?

It is you my friend that has to wake up and read, watch some other media sources.

And by the way, read my post again, especially the part that about the members on tv.

I hope you can understand enough English for this, or do you want me to translate in Russian?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[3NUMBAS]

the EU plot destabilized the country in the first place ,offering them to join the gravy train ,overthrowing a democratically elected gumment ,and replacing with an extreme right wing gumment who hate the russian populace

[Sealbash]

Pralaad,

Read what Aljazeera is writing about this incident and they sure are not a Western propaganda machine in full swing

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/19/ukraine-malaysiaseparatist.html

I am not quite sure what point you trying to make?

Rebels behavior has nothing to do with my posts.

As i said, may be it was the rebels, may be it was not.

But blaming Russia before even knowing the fact is the US propaganda, who is leading the pack, even though it had little to do with US.

If anything one would expect EU to lead.considering the location of the tragedy

So why is the EU not leading? Do possible gas delivery considerations have anything to do with this? Russian media is state controlled. Western media has investigative journalists, who are also not adverse to reporting shortcomings or errors of their respective governments.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

And do you think US leading and EU following do not have gas considerations?

Ukraine has not paid gas bill and has been cut off even though EU provided money for that. That did not bother EU?

Of course it did, but EU had a taste of lying Ukrainian administration, they even made it known publicly(sorry no link, but was all over the news, when talks failed. EU stated that Ukraine was unreasonable and impossible to deal with)

The difference is, for EU Ukraine and Russia is all a reality, for US its a political game

The US has called for an independent International inquiry. Hardly a US political game trying to expose the truth with investigators from multiple nations.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Emster23]

Separatists had the weapons, the Buk missiles captured from Ukrainian base they took. This is from Russian Tass News Site. Unless Russian news agency would lie about that on June 29th, but for what reason? Unless you read Russian, may need google translate. http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1287030 This is from important section: Donetsk, June 29. / ITAR-TASS /. Representatives militia proclaimed the People's Republic of Donetsk (DNR) took control of the military unit No. A-1402 air defense (AD) with anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM) "Book". This information was confirmed by ITAR-TASS, the press service of the DNI."

I think it was done by mistake, not intentionally. Fog of war and all that.

However if it was mistake, why not own up to it? Why does Putin blame Ukraine because it happened on Ukraine soil? (oh really? seems DNR doesn't think so). Why no sealing off of the area? Why block investigators from access for so long? ("Sanitize the crime scene" comes to mind). Where are the black boxes? Why not send them to Switzerland or neutral country to look into?

That local commander asking "Why other countries so concern about this plane and not about casualties here?" shows their total lack of basic intelligence and reason. Mr Putin, you like to come off so macho, how about "man up" and just admit this happened? You can't hide it forever, and all the machinations by you and your proxies merely reinforce belief your people did it. Is it because maybe you would have to stop sending in sophisticated heavy weapons? To paraphrase Reagan regarding Russia-Ukraine border:

"Mr Putin: build up that wall!"

[Cambodger]

Separatists had the weapons, the Buk missiles captured from Ukrainian base they took. This is from Russian Tass News Site. Unless Russian news agency would lie about that on June 29th, but for what reason? Unless you read Russian, may need google translate. http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1287030 This is from important section: Donetsk, June 29. / ITAR-TASS /. Representatives militia proclaimed the People's Republic of Donetsk (DNR) took control of the military unit No. A-1402 air defense (AD) with anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM) "Book". This information was confirmed by ITAR-TASS, the press service of the DNI."

I think it was done by mistake, not intentionally. Fog of war and all that.

However if it was mistake, why not own up to it? Why does Putin blame Ukraine because it happened on Ukraine soil? (oh really? seems DNR doesn't think so). Why no sealing off of the area? Why block investigators from access for so long? ("Sanitize the crime scene" comes to mind). Where are the black boxes? Why not send them to Switzerland or neutral country to look into?

That local commander asking "Why other countries so concern about this plane and not about casualties here?" shows their total lack of basic intelligence and reason. Mr Putin, you like to come off so macho, how about "man up" and just admit this happened? You can't hide it forever, and all the machinations by you and your proxies merely reinforce belief your people did it. Is it because maybe you would have to stop sending in sophisticated heavy weapons? To paraphrase Reagan regarding Russia-Ukraine border:

"Mr Putin: build up that wall!"

http://youtu.be/zvtxZMhyDcY

You're listening to the same media that said yesterday that this was on route to Moscow...

Edited July 20, 2014 by Cambodger

[Emster23]

Separatists had the weapons, the Buk missiles captured from Ukrainian base they took. This is from Russian Tass News Site. Unless Russian news agency would lie about that on June 29th, but for what reason? Unless you read Russian, may need google translate. http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1287030 This is from important section: Donetsk, June 29. / ITAR-TASS /. Representatives militia proclaimed the People's Republic of Donetsk (DNR) took control of the military unit No. A-1402 air defense (AD) with anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM) "Book". This information was confirmed by ITAR-TASS, the press service of the DNI."

I think it was done by mistake, not intentionally. Fog of war and all that.

However if it was mistake, why not own up to it? Why does Putin blame Ukraine because it happened on Ukraine soil? (oh really? seems DNR doesn't think so). Why no sealing off of the area? Why block investigators from access for so long? ("Sanitize the crime scene" comes to mind). Where are the black boxes? Why not send them to Switzerland or neutral country to look into?

That local commander asking "Why other countries so concern about this plane and not about casualties here?" shows their total lack of basic intelligence and reason. Mr Putin, you like to come off so macho, how about "man up" and just admit this happened? You can't hide it forever, and all the machinations by you and your proxies merely reinforce belief your people did it. Is it because maybe you would have to stop sending in sophisticated heavy weapons? To paraphrase Reagan regarding Russia-Ukraine border:

"Mr Putin: build up that wall!"

http://youtu.be/zvtxZMhyDcY

You're listening to the same media that said yesterday that this was on route to Moscow...

BOTH of my posts are from TASS, the official Russian News Agency that has been around longer than I have (and that is quite a while!). Not from Reuters. This is Russians, so cannot accuse of "Western Bias" if that is what you are doing. Oh, oops! sorry. Try this where rebels now say they don't have those missiles. (well, perhaps they went into Russia one missile shy of a load as shown on various sites,I reckon): http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325289 (Google translation of part): " We militia in proclamation of the Republic in the east of Ukraine No armed air defense systems "Buk" Liars, and not very smart ones of that. Fog of war and vodka not a nice mix.