Thousands march for Gaza in London, clashes in Paris over Israeli onslaught

[Jay Sata]

 

Murder is not the right word.

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Bombing a UN shelter killing children taking refuge there, despite having been warned 17 times that children were sleeping there is Murder. Dropping laser guided bombs with their acknowledged pin point accuracy on a crowded market during a 4 hour 'humanitarian window', killing up to twenty civilians, then firing on civilians fleeing the scene is Murder. Which ever way you cut it.
 

 

And let us not forget the part the USA plays in supplying the weaponry and funding Israel.

[Jingthing]

Murder is not the right word.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 
So just to confirm:
 
"antisemitism" and "hate crime" are the rights words, but "murder" is not the right word. 

If the shoe fits.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Asiantravel]

 

 

Murder is not the right word.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

Bombing a UN shelter killing children taking refuge there, despite having been warned 17 times that children were sleeping there is Murder. Dropping laser guided bombs with their acknowledged pin point accuracy on a crowded market during a 4 hour 'humanitarian window', killing up to twenty civilians, then firing on civilians fleeing the scene is Murder. Which ever way you cut it.
 

 

And let us not forget the part the USA plays in supplying the weaponry and funding Israel.

 

 

 

Hypocrisy... or diplomacy?

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Asiantravel]

 

 

Think you'll find most regular decent people condemn killing of women and children whoever does it and whoever are the victims.

 

It is false to suggest its anything for most but simply a natural reaction when innocents and those unable to defend themselves are killed. 

 

There is no defence no matter who the aggressor is, whatever race, whatever nation, whatever religion, it is wrong and disgusting to most. People do not like to see civilian casualties, period. 

 

It just happens to be Israel as the main aggressor  and the more people try to justify so many children and civilian injuries and deaths the less support Israel will continue to enjoy or indeed be surprised or sympathetic when there is blowback. This would be both unfortunate and sad but as we know all too well from history when a bully eventually gets taken down a peg or two then the usual reaction is one of apathy and people tend to be unsurprised and often even unsympathetic. In Israel's case not because most normal people are  Anti Semitic but because its simply wrong and they tend to have long  memories and understand what goes around often comes around.  

 

And yes if this were the British instead of Israel acting in this manner I would be ashamed of Britain and also outraged ( as I am for many things Britain has done and continues to at times ) whether I were myself British or considered Britain an ally. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you 100% that killing of women and children or any other civilians is shocking and should be avoided.

Also most of the people of Israel would agree with you ( ofcourse there are the extremists on both sides, but they are a minority).

 

BUT the problem is that you fail to understand WHY citizens are being killed, and from there HOW to make it stop!

 

Hamas doesnt have the sensitivity that you and the rest of the western world has for human lives. 

It uses death of civilians for its advantage in a sick propaganda.

For Hamas, the more civilian casualties, the more shocking the better. 

Unfortunately, Hamas and News agencies share an interest - the more shocking the better the story.

 

Hamas uses your sensitivity to their advantage. They actually were counting on it!

They know pretty well that they cant defeat Israel with their rockets, they want to defeat it on the world opinion stage.

Otherwise, how can you explain that they refused all long lasting cease fires, broke all "Humanitarian cease fires", and were the one to start this conflict!

 

They dont think like me and you. For the extremist Muslim, to die as a shahid (martyr in the name of Islam) is the best thing they can aspire to.

All life here on earth come to serve only one goal, the life in the afterlife, and there, it is only heaven or hell.

So according to that twisted logic, ofcourse you want a sure ticket for reaching heaven (being a Shahid).

 

Hamas caused the conflict. It doesnt want to stop it. It hides behinds civilians.

It attacks from civilian centers to reach a win win situation: or Israel will sustain from hitting the target, or more civilians will die.

The more civilian dies, the more people will join their rank, the more Israel looses its status.

 

I dont expect you to believe me, do research on your own, but you can start with these:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2wvqDfitLY

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT6iKFQDEP4

 

The usual, "blame the victim" nonsense, morphing into the "its their religion" irrelevance. Anything to divert from the core issue of the Zionist land theft

 

 

" Anything to divert from the core issue of the Zionist land theft "

 

 

 

Israel Creates ‘No Man’s Land’ in Gaza, Shrinking Strip by 40 Percent 

 

BEIT HANOUN, Gaza — This narrow strip of land that used to be called “the Gaza Strip,” already one of the more densely populated places on Earth, is growing dramatically smaller. The Israeli military, relentlessly and methodically, is driving people out of the 3-kilometer (1.8 mile) buffer zone it says it needs to protect against Hamas rockets and tunnels. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the buffer zone eats up about 44 percent of Gaza’s territory. 

 

 

 

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html 

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by Asiantravel

[7by7]

 

 

Murder is not the right word.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 
So just to confirm:
 
"antisemitism" and "hate crime" are the rights words, but "murder" is not the right word. 

If the shoe fits.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

 

Indeed, and the 'murder shoe, fits many of the IDF's actions!

 

Unless you are one of the blinkered who believe that the IDF and Israeli government can do no wrong and so resort to the labels of anti Semitism and neo Nazism all criticism of Israel's tactics.

[Ulysses G.]

 

Murder is not the right word.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 
Bombing a UN shelter killing children taking refuge there, despite having been warned 17 times that children were sleeping there is Murder.

 

Was it an Israeli bomb or yet another Palestinian rocket? As of yesterday 160 had misfired and exploded in Gaza.

10 Palestinians killed in failed Gazan rocket attack on Israel, IDF says

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/10-Palestinians-killed-in-failed-Gazan-rocket-attack-IDF-says-369180

[7by7]

 

 

Israel wants to punish the Palestinians for forming a government with a terrorist group that calls for their destruction as well as every other Jew. What a shocker that is. Actions have consequences. 

 
If Israel hadn't stolen Palestinian lands and forced Palestinians into overcrowded towns and refugee camps then maybe the Palestinians wouldn't have voted for Hamas.

Support for Hamas was waning before this current conflict; now it is increasing again. Hamas' best allies and most effective recruiters are the IDF and Israeli government!

Obviously Hamas firing rockets into Israel is wrong, but Israel's response is way to severe; 1422 Palestinians dead, most of them civilians, 58 Israelis dead and one Thai on the Israeli side; 56 of those Israeli soldiers.

Israel's response is obviously, inexcusably over the top when one looks at the threat Hamas' rockets actually posed to Israeli civilians.

 

 
If memory serves, growth of support for Hamas had more to do with PA corruption and inability to get anywhere with the
peace negotiations. Support for Hamas was going down some recently - mostly due to economic factors. This occured
in the past, and one Hamas tactic to deal with that is bringing out the old aggro vs. Israel - nothing serves better to
divert attention and unite the people.

 

And the Israeli government played right into their hands and is doing the job for them; hence the rise in support for Hamas.

 

Casualty lists on the Israeli side are not as high as in Gaza Strip. That does not mean that there are no damages or that
the Israeli civilians (especially at the south of Israel) are not running in and out of shelters quite often. They are lucky to
have a country that places some importance on their protection and survival. Seeing the scope of Hamas underground
construction projects, they could have provided ample protection for at least some of the Gazans. Same goes for telling
civilians to disregard Israeli warnings about impeding attacks, and using densely populated residential areas and public
building for military purposes.
 
What would constitute a proportional military response from Israel, in your opinion?

To be honest, I don't know.

What I do know is that Israel's tactics have never worked.

The German bombing of British cities in WWII was designed to demoralise the civilian population and sap their will to fight; as was the Allied bombing of German cities in the same war; as was the American bombing of North Vietnam in that war.

All that was achieved was that civilian resolve was strengthened and the will to fight on increased.

 

We are seeing the same now in the rising support for Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank.

[CBR250]

 

Humanitarian supplies and some essential medical supplies donated by the International community has arrived in Gaza during 27th / 28th July. Credit where it's due - Israel is fulfilling at least its obligations under Humanitarian Law in this regard. Supplies will be allocated and delivered as conditions allow.
 
Sadly, WHO updates suggest that Health Care facilities are unable to adequately utilise supplies, as they have lost staff to death and injury, and many more who cannot work as they are fully engaged in tending to their own families. The other concerns for health are the loss of power and water supplies. You can't really run a hospital without power and water. Ambulances are not able to work - many have been destroyed, and some areas are so badly damaged by Israeli shelling that they cannot move around. Ambulances clearly marked with the Red Crescent have had their staff shot, apparently by snipers. These shootings occurred even after obtaining permission from the IDF to rescue injured people in precise locations.
http://www.emro.who.int/images/stories/palestine/documents/WHO_Sitrep_on_Gaza__5_-_July_28.pdf?ua=1
 
 
 

Would they be the same ambulances that Hamas terrorists routinely use as transport, taking the obligatory cargo of children with just in case.


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Credibility online.

Steely Dan & dr lucas vs World Health Organisation and the International Red Cross. Who do you believe???
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

์No. It isn't. Egypt could open it any time that they wanted to, but they have about as much use for Hamas as Israel does and are just as responsible for the blockade on goods going into Gaza. They consider Hamas terrorists that are fomenting violence in Egypt as well as Israel.

"Let Gaza burn with those in it," proclaimed Tawfik Okasha, a pro-military TV presenter known for his rabid anti-Islamist rhetoric. He praised Israel's leadership "You are men," he said for striking back against Hamas after the kidnapping and killing of three Israelis last month.
Another presenter, Amany el-Khayat, accused Hamas of trying to promote its "resistance" image by letting Gazan civilians die, saying the group seeks to "wash its face ... with Palestinians' blood."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/facing-calls-to-open-gaza-border-egypt-takes-tough-line-in-rivalry-with-hamas/

 

Interesting.

However, the tunnels from Egypt can only operate with Egyptian complicity. It will be informative to see if Sissi shuts them down.

 

It is worth noting that the Palestinian refugees are still confined to camps as other Arab countries find it expedient, for whatever reason, to not let them assimilate into their own countries.

 

 

It's true the oil rich nations have enough money to give the people of Gaza a fresh start in their respective countries.

But who in their right mind would bring evil and trouble to its own doorstep?

No, they are happy to fuel the fire of Hamas and let them make martyrs of women and children.

Distant slaughter by proxy is the rich Arab way.

 

 

Why should other Arab countries absorb Palestinian refugees when they still have the keys to their homes in Israel, if only Israel would adhere to the Geneva Convention and UN Charter, that allows refugees to return to their homes when the hostilities abate.

 

Israel's should face up to its responsibilities as an occupying force.

 

 

So, apart from advocating a simplified notion of the Right of Return, any ideas how to tackle some underlying issues

quite obviously concerned with implementation?

 

Such as how far back does the right hold?

Are refugees to become Israeli citizens?

Are current residents to be cleared off (and thereby, making a new refugee problem all over)?

Are Israeli Jews who immigrated under duress from Arab/Muslim countries entitled to the same right?

Are Israel and Palestine ready to handle such a mass influx of immigrants?

Does this Right of Return act as a precedent for similar situations worldwide?
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

 
It's true the oil rich nations have enough money to give the people of Gaza a fresh start in their respective countries.
But who in their right mind would bring evil and trouble to its own doorstep?
No, they are happy to fuel the fire of Hamas and let them make martyrs of women and children.
Distant slaughter by proxy is the rich Arab way.

 

 

So, if your homeland was invaded and you were forced out of your homes into a refugee camp in a foreign country you would simply shrug your shoulders and say 'Never mind, I'll take my family to live somewhere else!'

 

Good job that sort of thinking didn't exist in 1940!

 

 

No, but there would come a time where reality would have to be faced, and rather than holding on to the dream of

turning back the clock, a leadership needs to do what is best for the interests of its people and salvage what they

can out of the mess. Being defeated and having to compromise is not how things were supposed to go, but such is

life.
 

 

When would that time be?

 

What is now Israel was part of non Jewish states for roughly 2000 years before 1948. Using your argument, the state of Israel should not exist!

 

(How long before someone quotes just the last phrase as 'proof' that is my opinion?)

 

 

When the partition plan was announced, the Jews accepted, even if this plan did not include everything they hoped for.

A lot of the land accorded to the new state was a barren desert, border lines were hardly defensible, and control of the

city of Jerusalem was denied.

 

They went for the better one bird at hand approach. I'm suggesting that it might be wiser for the Palestinians to do the

same. Taking Jewish history as a reference....not sure that anyone would wish to emulate this. You are right to say that

with a different leadership, or different geo-political circumstances the existence of Israel could have been undone.

[Morch]

 

 

 the Palestinian authority actually turned away medicine donated by Israel twice in one week. Perhaps they should themselves be investigated for crimes,against humanity for putting propaganda ahead of the lives of their own people.

 

 

By even the most conservative of estimates, Israel has murdered hundreds of women and children in the last 3 weeks via the most inhumane and immoral actions. 

 

Would the US have accepted donated medical supplies from the Japanese after the Pearl Harbor attacks?

 

Why shouldn't the people of Gaza presume that this "donation" is not what Israeli claims it to be?  Quite frankly, they'd have to be crazy to assume that Israel has their best interests at heart.  Would anyone be completely shocked to learn in a few years that this medicine was in some way tainted?  I certainly wouldn't.

 

 

Did the Japanese offer any medical supplies for the USA to reject?

 

The donation in question was not rejected by the "people of Gaza", but by the PA.

As for your hinted allegations at tainted medicine, they are as credible as most nonsense spread by Arab media in the

same vein (try jeans pants designed to decrease fertility in Egyptian males...just an example). The truth is that when the

Hamas leadership is less picky than you:

 

 

Hamas PM’s brother-in-law treated in Israeli hospital

 

Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Hanieyeh’s brother-in-law was rushed to a hospital in Peta Tikvah, in Israel for urgent heart treatment four months ago, reported Ynet News website on Wednesday.

Suhila Abed el-Salam Ahmed Haniyeh’s husband suffered a serious cardiac episode, which could not be treated at any Gaza hospital. The couple had the option of going to a more advanced medical center in Egypt but chose to go to the Israeli hospital instead.

Before going, the couple had to file a request to travel to receive the necessary medical treatment with Israeli authorities. After being granted permission, a Palestinian ambulance took the husband along with his wife to the Erez Crossing, where he was moved into an Israeli Magen David Adom ambulance and taken to Beilinson Hospital in Peta Tikvah.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/08/08/231069.html
 

 

 

Haniyeh’s granddaughter treated at Israeli hospital

 

 

The seriously ill granddaughter of Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh came to Israel for medical treatment.

 

One-year-old Amal Haniyeh, accompanied by her grandmother, crossed from Gaza into Israel to be seen by doctors at the Schneider Children’s Medical Center in Petah Tikvah, according to reports based on Palestinian sources.

 

Amal reportedly had an infection of her digestive tract that affected her nervous system and damaged her brain. She was transferred back to a hospital in the Gaza Strip after Israeli doctors determined that they could not help her, and her condition continued to deteriorate.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.559083

[Morch]

Window dressing on the part of Israel to deflect world opinion.

 

What is?

 

Israel continues to supply the Gaza Strip with electricity, water, medical supplies and food according to international

convention. The Israeli electric company moans about this regularly (debt mounting up as the PA refuses to pay for

Hamas bills) but actually cutting of the juice was never done.

 

So, if I'm getting your drift - Israel would be damned if medical supplies would not be let through, and is damned just

the same when it does allow it (or even supplies it by itself). Guess you got it all covered nicely, then.

[Morch]

 

Murder is not the right word.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

 

Huh ?     Even your  fellow countrymen says it is

 'GOVERNMENT MURDERING CHILDREN WITH MY MONEY,' SAYS ISRAELI JEW

Ofer Neiman and a group of like-minded Israelis are not only pained by the ongoing Israeli onslaught against the blockaded Gaza Strip, but also by what they describe as Israel's "apartheid" policies against the "oppressed" Palestinian people. "I feel my government is murdering children using my money and claiming to do it in my name,

 

 

 

 

http://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2014/07/19/government-murdering-children-with-my-money-says-israeli-jew

 

 

As far as I know Jingthing is not Israeli.

As far as I know Neiman was never a combatant, and in fact, pretty sure he's out of reserve duty lists for years now.

 

The fact that there are left wing groups in Israel able to have their say does not make everything they claim a fact, or

an accepted opinion of large tracts in Israeli society.

[Morch]

 

 

 

 
If Israel hadn't stolen Palestinian lands and forced Palestinians into overcrowded towns and refugee camps then maybe the Palestinians wouldn't have voted for Hamas.

Support for Hamas was waning before this current conflict; now it is increasing again. Hamas' best allies and most effective recruiters are the IDF and Israeli government!

Obviously Hamas firing rockets into Israel is wrong, but Israel's response is way to severe; 1422 Palestinians dead, most of them civilians, 58 Israelis dead and one Thai on the Israeli side; 56 of those Israeli soldiers.

Israel's response is obviously, inexcusably over the top when one looks at the threat Hamas' rockets actually posed to Israeli civilians.

 

 
If memory serves, growth of support for Hamas had more to do with PA corruption and inability to get anywhere with the
peace negotiations. Support for Hamas was going down some recently - mostly due to economic factors. This occured
in the past, and one Hamas tactic to deal with that is bringing out the old aggro vs. Israel - nothing serves better to
divert attention and unite the people.

 

And the Israeli government played right into their hands and is doing the job for them; hence the rise in support for Hamas.

 

Casualty lists on the Israeli side are not as high as in Gaza Strip. That does not mean that there are no damages or that
the Israeli civilians (especially at the south of Israel) are not running in and out of shelters quite often. They are lucky to
have a country that places some importance on their protection and survival. Seeing the scope of Hamas underground
construction projects, they could have provided ample protection for at least some of the Gazans. Same goes for telling
civilians to disregard Israeli warnings about impeding attacks, and using densely populated residential areas and public
building for military purposes.
 
What would constitute a proportional military response from Israel, in your opinion?

To be honest, I don't know.

What I do know is that Israel's tactics have never worked.

The German bombing of British cities in WWII was designed to demoralise the civilian population and sap their will to fight; as was the Allied bombing of German cities in the same war; as was the American bombing of North Vietnam in that war.

All that was achieved was that civilian resolve was strengthened and the will to fight on increased.

 

We are seeing the same now in the rising support for Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank.

 

 

The Israeli government did not exactly walk into a trap. I am pretty sure both sides miscalculated, underestimating the

other side's response and then sort of surprised no one came to pull them apart and send them to the corner. Both the

Hamas and the Israeli government had some vested interests in having a go at each other, but both seem to have had

something more limited in mind.

 

The ones who ultimately suffer are civilians, not leaders.

 

As for the proportionate response thing - not as if I have a good answer for this myself. Obviously the current Israeli

actions are not proportionate, but then again, not sure that there is actually a code that states fairness has anything

to do with warfare, within certain limits. The way international law seems to work, countries are mostly protected if

certain legal conditions are met - that these might have little meaning as far as actual warfare is experienced by the

populace is quite evident.

 

The Israeli military actions do not work in the sense that they are neither promoting the chances for peace, and at the

same time, do not totally curtail terrorist actions. This definition carries the underlying assertions that either proposition

is achievable. I am not sure that this is the case, at least not with current leaderships on all sides, and with the Hamas

stance vs. Israel. If one views Israel's military actions as means to contain a threat, they might fare better. It does not

seem to be oriented at achieving much beyond that.

[CBR250]

 

If one views Israel's military actions as means to contain a threat, they might fare better. It does not

seem to be oriented at achieving much beyond that.

 

 

Well, this is the basis of the accusations of a breach of humanitarian law. If the IDF is only containing a threat from Hamas - its fighters and rockets - they cannot justify so many deaths amongst women and children, health workers and teachers.

 

Hamas I believe had about 25% support of the population a few weeks ago. The IDF has probably achieved the biggest boost in support for Hamas in their history, so they have achieved a lot more than containing a threat. They have increased it, and ensured its continuation into the future. I like to think I would hold onto principles of peace when faced with the situation of many Gazans. But I am not so sure I could if I saw my children killed by sniper fire, or a laser guided missile, or a tank shell. Or found the body of my wife in the rubble of my house. Especially if I had taken them to a "safe place" as designated by UNWRA. It is understandable that such people come to hate, and political parties that prosper on the pillars of hatred, prejudice and revenge come to the fore. Such as Hamas. Such as Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu. We can see how these negative emotions drive hatreds on this forum each day, as some (un-nameable) posters attempt to flood the pages with their skewed justifications for the continuing slaughter of civilians in Gaza.

 

 

[Jingthing]

Murder is not the right word.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Again, murder is not the right word. BTW, this is quite a BALANCED article and worth a read by all:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html

 

3. Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

This is the single most important issue that gets everyone riled up, and rightfully so.

Again, there is no justification for innocent Gazans dying. And there's no excuse for Israel's negligence in incidents like the killing of four children on a Gazan beach. But let's back up and think about this for a minute.

Why on Earth would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

When civilians die, Israel looks like a monster. It draws the ire of even its closest allies. Horrific images of injured and dead innocents flood the media. Ever-growing anti-Israel protests are held everywhere from Norway to New York. And the relatively low number of Israeli casualties (we'll get to that in a bit) repeatedly draws allegations of a "disproportionate" response. Most importantly, civilian deaths help Hamas immensely.

How can any of this possibly ever be in Israel's interest?

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it is terrible at it. ISIS killed more civilians in two days (700 plus) than Israel has in two weeks. Imagine if ISIS or Hamas had Israel's weapons, army, air force, US support, and nuclear arsenal. Their enemies would've been annihilated long ago. If Israel truly wanted to destroy Gaza, it could do so within a day, right from the air. Why carry out a more painful, expensive ground incursion that risks the lives of its soldiers?

 

[CBR250]

 

3. Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

This is the single most important issue that gets everyone riled up, and rightfully so.

Again, there is no justification for innocent Gazans dying. And there's no excuse for Israel's negligence in incidents like the killing of four children on a Gazan beach. But let's back up and think about this for a minute.

Why on Earth would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

When civilians die, Israel looks like a monster. It draws the ire of even its closest allies. Horrific images of injured and dead innocents flood the media. Ever-growing anti-Israel protests are held everywhere from Norway to New York. And the relatively low number of Israeli casualties (we'll get to that in a bit) repeatedly draws allegations of a "disproportionate" response. Most importantly, civilian deaths help Hamas immensely.

How can any of this possibly ever be in Israel's interest?

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it is terrible at it. ISIS killed more civilians in two days (700 plus) than Israel has in two weeks. Imagine if ISIS or Hamas had Israel's weapons, army, air force, US support, and nuclear arsenal. Their enemies would've been annihilated long ago. If Israel truly wanted to destroy Gaza, it could do so within a day, right from the air. Why carry out a more painful, expensive ground incursion that risks the lives of its soldiers?

 

 

It's not so much that the IDF wants to kill civilians. It's just that they act like like they really don't care one way or the other. There certainly is a lack of care in what targets are being hit. Too many are so obviously civilian targets (schools, hospitals etc). And as the UN noted, the schools being shelled were not ones that had been found to be concealing rockets.

 

And, sadly, the deaths are in Israel's interests - or at least the interests of Netanyahu, Lieberman and the other war mongers in the Knesset. They are trying to subjugate an occupied people. The best way to do that is by fear. If Israelis ever accept that co-existence is a hell of a lot better for everyone than subjugation, there will be no motive to induce fear. No motive to attack civilian targets like schools and hospitals. In fact, quite the opposite - if you are sincere in accepting people as neighbours for the long haul, you don't try to kill them and preach hatred. And then blame the subjugated people for acting in exactly the same way you do. But if you just want to keep stealing land....

 

 

[Jingthing]

Just continue to ignore the reality that Gaza is ruled by Hamas, which is deeply anti-semitic and dedicated to the destruction of Israel. It won't be solved by sending over bagels  ... 

 

[attachment=277548:branco-cartoon.jpg]

Edited August 1, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jay Sata]

It appears to me that some regular contributors here have either got a serious case of ostrich brain syndrome or they must be Fox News viewers?

Either way the world media and its readers and viewers can see the reality for themselves.

Israel will not emerge from this massive military slaughter of civilians in Palestine with positive results.

[Jingthing]

It appears to me that some regular contributors here have either got a serious case of ostrich brain syndrome or they must be Fox News viewers?

Either way the world media and its readers and viewers can see the reality for themselves.

Israel will not emerge from this massive military slaughter of civilians in Palestine with positive results.

If you're saying that Israel is taking a big PR hit, duh, we knew that. 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-with-israel-the-world-is-blaming-the-victims/2014/07/28/104bcc4c-1680-11e4-9349-84d4a85be981_story.html?hpid=z3

Edited August 1, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

 

 

If one views Israel's military actions as means to contain a threat, they might fare better. It does not

seem to be oriented at achieving much beyond that.

 

 

Well, this is the basis of the accusations of a breach of humanitarian law. If the IDF is only containing a threat from Hamas - its fighters and rockets - they cannot justify so many deaths amongst women and children, health workers and teachers.

 

Hamas I believe had about 25% support of the population a few weeks ago. The IDF has probably achieved the biggest boost in support for Hamas in their history, so they have achieved a lot more than containing a threat. They have increased it, and ensured its continuation into the future. I like to think I would hold onto principles of peace when faced with the situation of many Gazans. But I am not so sure I could if I saw my children killed by sniper fire, or a laser guided missile, or a tank shell. Or found the body of my wife in the rubble of my house. Especially if I had taken them to a "safe place" as designated by UNWRA. It is understandable that such people come to hate, and political parties that prosper on the pillars of hatred, prejudice and revenge come to the fore. Such as Hamas. Such as Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu. We can see how these negative emotions drive hatreds on this forum each day, as some (un-nameable) posters attempt to flood the pages with their skewed justifications for the continuing slaughter of civilians in Gaza.

 

 

 

 

I am not pretending to be an expert on international law, but as far as my post goes "contain" was meant in the way of

handling a current ongoing threat without having an ability to make it go away (well, technically possible, but then the

current carnage will look like child play, so not an option). This is going on while waiting for the politicians to get it on.

 

Not sure where the 25% popular support bit comes from, so cannot comment on that (any chance of a link?) directly.

That there was discontent, yes. Mostly over economic issues, a bit over politics, what with Hamas looking soft teaming

with the PA again while ISIS scoring points in Iraq. Going on the warpath to divert attention from this was not really a huge

surprise.

 

I think both sides got more than they bargained for. No teacher came to separate them and no other adult came to "bribe"

them into making up. Things got out of hand and then the usual dynamics took hold.

 

While I certainly understand Gazans hating Israel, and vice versa (although probably a bit more focused when it comes

to Israelis), I am far from certain how this will play in terms of future political domestic support on both sides. A lot to do

with how it ends and the aftermath.

 

[Ulysses G.]

Israel will not emerge from this massive military slaughter of civilians in Palestine with positive results.

I wouldn't be sure about that. Much of Hamas rockets supply will have been destroyed or used and it will be much harder for them to resupply without the cooperation of Egypt, who have made it obvious that they consider them terrorists and an enemy.

[DPIZZA]

How Britain profits from the attack on Gaza   I am sure there was also people there demonstrating about UK government policy on arming Israel.https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDIQqQIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politics.co.uk%2Fblogs%2F2014%2F07%2F22%2Fhow-britain-profits-from-the-attack-on-gaza&ei=-8XTU4SXOoqUuATyj4KwDg&usg=AFQjCNFm6Qhh_phQNwkAj_W_zgVbmw2J1g

 

And you believe this movie? why you can be so easily fooled by this?

maybe you want to... 

Another fine example of Palliwood...

 

There are so many things wrong in this movie...

First you can clearly see that there are people standing from both sides of the "guy who supposedly got shot" - why they are not being shot?

Also, why they keep on standing there, why nobody hit the ground or look for a cover?

Why only the guy in green got shot? why no apparent hit, or blood coming out - sniper bullet is powerful.

And finally, there is no evidence or any picture of an Israeli soldier or sniper, it can also be Hamas terrorists shooting, but my guess here it is totally staged.

 

Here, educate yourself for the propaganda you fell for:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8ANySuSuk

[thaibeachlovers]

Just continue to ignore the reality that Gaza is ruled by Hamas, which is deeply anti-semitic and dedicated to the destruction of Israel. It won't be solved by sending over bagels  ... 

 

branco-cartoon.jpg

Do you not understand that Hamas was elected in response to israel's continued oppression of Gaza after the occupation finished? Treat people badly for long enough, and they will eventually rebel. Even the worm will turn.

Anyone that believes an oppressed people should just accept that oppression does not understand human nature.

The sad thing is that of all the countries in the world, israel should understand that the most, given the history of the Jewish people.

The question is, do you think the Gazans should accept their fate like the Jews at Babi Yar, or fight back like the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto?

[Jay Sata]

Exactly

[Jingthing]

Enough with the antisemitic suggestions that the situation in modern Israel is equivalent to Nazi Germany! When Jews did put up some resistance in the Warsaw ghetto their goal was survival. Their goal was not to drive all the non-Jews out of Poland and/or murder them all. You people are so twisted with hatred against Jews you can't see reality. Where are the death camps in Israel for Arabs, a democratic nation with 20 percent Arab citizens that mostly are HAPPY to be Israelis? Are the Israelis murdering gays? Nope, that's the Palestinians doing that.  Where are the transports from Gaza to the death camps? If Israel had wanted to exterminate the Palestinians in Gaza (and the west bank) they could have easily done so long ago. They could do so today. But they haven't and they won't and you bloody well know that. No. Israelis are not the same as Nazis. Only antisemites push that hateful lie. All you do with pushing this lie is to broadcast your hatred of Jews. If you don't want to be called out for this, stop the lies. 

 

You know, there is no problem with criticizing Israeli using rational arguments. There is plenty to criticize. Almost all rational people see faults on BOTH SIDE, as do I. But most of you Israel demonizers posting here just can't help yourselves but to inject multiple antisemitic themes again, and again, and again. Can't you do better?

Edited August 2, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

 

Just continue to ignore the reality that Gaza is ruled by Hamas, which is deeply anti-semitic and dedicated to the destruction of Israel. It won't be solved by sending over bagels  ... 

 

branco-cartoon.jpg

Do you not understand that Hamas was elected in response to israel's continued oppression of Gaza after the occupation finished? 

 

 

Huh? Where do you boys come up with all this malarkey? Gazans elected Hamas because they were tired of corruption in the Palestinian Authority. As usual, the Palestinians themselves were responsible for most of the problems.

Hamas won elections in 2006 and violently kicked out the remnants of the Palestinian Authority in 2007. Hamas announced they would refuse to honor past international agreements between the Palestinian government and Israel. Under Hamas rule, the rain of Qassam rocket fire and mortars, from Gaza into southern Israel increased and Israel responded by locking down the borders. \The United States and the EU cut off aid to the Gaza Strip. Israel and the Middle East Quartet implemented punitive economic measures. Before disengagement, 120,000 Palestinians from Gaza were employed in Israel or joint projects. After Israel withdrew, the gross domestic product of the Gaza Strip declined. Israeli enterprises shut down, work relationships were severed and job opportunities in Israel dried up. In short, Hamas made things much worse. 

Edited August 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[thaibeachlovers]

Enough with the antisemitic suggestions that the situation in modern Israel is equivalent to Nazi Germany! When Jews did put up some resistance in the Warsaw ghetto their goal was survival. Their goal was not to drive all the non-Jews out of Poland. 

Enough of suggesting that anyone that considers israel is commiting crimes is anti semitic- classic diversionary technique. As both the Jews and the Arabs are semitic, how am I anti semitic? Being anti Zionist is not the same thing as being anti semitic- but you know that, don't you?

My question was whether the Gazans should behave like the Jews at Babi Yar, or those in the Ghetto, not saying they wanted to drive non Jews out of Poland. You haven't answered my question.

Do you consider that the Gazans should accept oppression, or fight back?

By what you seem to be saying, the early Americans should have accepted British rule and not rebelled, in which case you'd be a British subject.

[Jingthing]

 

Enough with the antisemitic suggestions that the situation in modern Israel is equivalent to Nazi Germany! When Jews did put up some resistance in the Warsaw ghetto their goal was survival. Their goal was not to drive all the non-Jews out of Poland. 

Enough of suggesting that anyone that considers israel is commiting crimes is anti semitic- classic diversionary technique. As both the Jews and the Arabs are semitic, how am I anti semitic? Being anti Zionist is not the same thing as being anti semitic- but you know that, don't you?

My question was whether the Gazans should behave like the Jews at Babi Yar, or those in the Ghetto, not saying they wanted to drive non Jews out of Poland. You haven't answered my question.

Do you consider that the Gazans should accept oppression, or fight back?

By what you seem to be saying, the early Americans should have accepted British rule and not rebelled, in which case you'd be a British subject.

 

Again, this is ridiculous. Antisemitism refers only to Jews. Consult a DICTIONARY. There is nothing else to discuss on that.

 

People in Gaza have strong legit grievances and yes that's putting it mildly, against Israel and against Hamas. I won't presume to decide their political decisions in future. But I do know this ... their political leadership that they have "chosen" is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and is deeply antisemitic. Israel can't negotiate with such leadership. No nation would so don't demonize Israel for behaving like any normal nation would in face of such a threat. So if the Gazans want endless war, they are going to get it. 

BTW, I have no obligation to answer any or all of your baiting questions in the way that you demand. I don't accept your antisemitic suggestion of any suggestion of EQUIVALENCE between modern Israel and the Nazis, so again don't bother trying that again. Not playing.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

 

Enough with the antisemitic suggestions that the situation in modern Israel is equivalent to Nazi Germany! When Jews did put up some resistance in the Warsaw ghetto their goal was survival. Their goal was not to drive all the non-Jews out of Poland.

Enough of suggesting that anyone that considers israel is commiting crimes is anti semitic- classic diversionary technique.

 

The "classic diversionary technique" is pretending that someone said that other than you. However, there is little doubt that much of the anti-Israel movement is anti-Semitic and the Gaza protests all over the world featuring neo-Nazis and radical Islamist groups proves it.

 

 

Prime Minister Manuel Valls spoke last week of a “new,” “normalized” anti-Semitism. “It blends the Palestinian cause, jihadism, the detestation of Israel and the hatred of France and its values,” he told the National Assembly.

Even in historically tolerant Italy, anti-Semitic smears have appeared on the streets of Rome. Jewish shop windows in several neighborhoods were defaced this week with swastikas and tags reading “Torch the synagogues” and “Jews your end is near.” Police suspect that right-wing extremists, possibly along with pro-Palestinian activists, carried out the acts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/world/europe/anger-in-europe-over-the-israeli-gaza-conflict-reverberates-as-anti-semitism.html?_r=0

Edited August 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.