Gaza and Israel suffer deadliest day

[Asiantravel]

 

...

You are conflating Palestinians and Hamas. I would not conflate Zionist fascists, Jews and Israelis, as it preents an understanding of the dynamics of the situation.

 

Funny. 

You just seemed to imply that all Zionists are fascists.

That is completely untrue.

I am sick and tired of Israel demonizers acting like Zionism is a dirty word.

I guess it is not surprising because so much of the world considers Jew a dirty word too.

Usually the same people!

 

 

I'm done apologizing for Israel.

It's tiring to apologize over and over. Instead, I've decided to come clean: I am a progressive American rabbi who leans left pretty hard. I've been engaged, as a US faith leader, in work to reform gun laws, extend LGBT rights around the world, grant refuge to illegal immigrants, protect women's reproductive choice, and more.Paint me blue.

So, when it comes to Israel, many of those with whom I engage in social reform expect me to react to Israel's military actions in Gaza with scorn and criticism. To be fair, there are times when I do. My Zionism demands I speak out on behalf of the Israel that remains, in my world-view, the most ambitious project-in-process of the Jewish People. Whereas Israel's 66 short years have witnessed strength and resilience that have redefined Jewish identity in profound ways, the global Jewish family remains interwoven with Israel. If you question this, scan the last week's news for anti-Israel rallies in Antwerp, Los Angeles, Paris, Boston, and elsewhere that featured widespread anti-Semitic chants and violence against Jews.

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html

 

 

 

What do you mean? Even Meir Dagan, the former head of Mossad has criticised them?

 

 

http://972mag.com/why-dagan-duty-is-to-express-his-dissent/15697/

Edited July 26, 2014 by Asiantravel

[CBR250]

 

...

You are conflating Palestinians and Hamas. I would not conflate Zionist fascists, Jews and Israelis, as it preents an understanding of the dynamics of the situation.

 

Funny. 

You just seemed to imply that all Zionists are fascists.

That is completely untrue.

I am sick and tired of Israel demonizers acting like Zionism is a dirty word.

I guess it is not surprising because so much of the world considers Jew a dirty word too.

Usually the same people!

 

 

I'm done apologizing for Israel.

It's tiring to apologize over and over. Instead, I've decided to come clean: I am a progressive American rabbi who leans left pretty hard. I've been engaged, as a US faith leader, in work to reform gun laws, extend LGBT rights around the world, grant refuge to illegal immigrants, protect women's reproductive choice, and more.Paint me blue.

So, when it comes to Israel, many of those with whom I engage in social reform expect me to react to Israel's military actions in Gaza with scorn and criticism. To be fair, there are times when I do. My Zionism demands I speak out on behalf of the Israel that remains, in my world-view, the most ambitious project-in-process of the Jewish People. Whereas Israel's 66 short years have witnessed strength and resilience that have redefined Jewish identity in profound ways, the global Jewish family remains interwoven with Israel. If you question this, scan the last week's news for anti-Israel rallies in Antwerp, Los Angeles, Paris, Boston, and elsewhere that featured widespread anti-Semitic chants and violence against Jews.

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html

 

 

Another typical JT response, avoid the issue altogether and try to open up some ludicrous tangent by attempting to misrepresent others' discussions. Even going for the victim stance and dragging up the hoary old anti-semitism card because anyone has the temerity to criticise anything about Israel - or more precisly, its right wing Zionist fanatics. For some one who rarely has anything worthwhile to contribute to these discussions, you take up an awful amount of online real estate.
 

Edited July 26, 2014 by CBR250

[Jingthing]

Issue not avoided. Issue was directly addressed. Suggesting ZIonism equals fascism is a disgusting lie. As far as anti-semitism, sorry, we are not all fools here. Look at the global protests now happening in the world ... massive amount of extremely blatant anti-semitism being displayed. That cannot be denied.

[Scott]

Please address the posts and not the poster.  

 

 

[Jay Sata]

All of this death and destruction because of religion.

Show me another modern country supported by the US that welcomes so called settlers on the basis of their religion while relegating those born in the area to second class citizens?

The current onslaught by Israel has already backfired with the worlds media screening and printing pictures that highlight the inequality of the situation.

As I have said before as an atheist I see religion being the prime cause of so many of the worlds problems.

[Morch]

 

 

What's going on is indefensible. Netanyahu should be arrested and tried at the Hague for war crimes.

 

The best way of dealing with Hamas would have been to up the the capability and coverage of the anti-rocket iron dome system and flood Gaza with aid and kindness while at the same time rooting out Hamas rocket production and locations on the ground.

 

I believe this began with Netanyahu blaming Hamas for the murder of three Israeli teens, something Hamas denied, but Netanyahu wouldn't believe them. Now hundreds of children are dead. As of tonight 160 children have been killed and 1300 injured.

 

Time to rid ourselves of this utter delusion that countries and borders actually exist. In this regard, only men with guns exist.

 

The Iron Dome capability stands at about 90%, not much to improve on that front. That said, probably would never be a 100% system, and would not eliminate the need of population to run into shelters every time an alarm sounds. As the system does not intercept all missiles (mostly those targeted at populated areas) damages will not be wholly avoided either. One of these days the Hamas (or another organization) is bound to get something better than what they launch now - what then?

 

Flooding Gaza with aid and kindness - no issues with that. You may want to look into Hamas refusing to accept goods that are transferred through Israeli ports, and piling issues over border pass controls just to make a political point (vs. Israel, PA

and Egypt, alternately). Hamas refuses funds transferred from various donors being administered by the PA, thereby making life harder for its own people.

 

Rooting out rocket production and locations on the ground - how can this be done without applying military force? Not like the Hamas will dismantle because the above aid and kindness. If this is supposed to assume some supernatural abilities by Israel's intelligence services - well, they're good, but not that good, no one is.

 

 

I believe that the aid and kindness part is a long term interest and means to get somewhere. The problem is that at the same time, there are short term issues that need to be addressed. There are usually no magic solutions and hardly ever any simple ones. At least not the kind that work.
 

 

 

I think your are correct on almost all of your points. However, I do think that the battle for hearts and minds is especially important at present. Kindness and civilian support cannot be left while the short term military issues are addressed. Israel woud benefit from distinguishing between Hamas combatants and local residents & acknowledging and sincerely apologising when it is at fault (eg when it has destroyed not only a target building, but those surrounding it; if the IDF has indeed shelled the UNWRA refuges by mistke, admit it, and apologise for such an horrific acident  - don't lie to avoid blame). Maybe this is a poor example, but there are many other ways in which Israel could adopt a more humane position of integrity, and ensure that Palestinians can better understand, if not accept, Israel's actions. If the sole aim is to dismantle Hamas' rocket capability, surely it is important to avoid any damage to the civilian population, and show sincere remorse when they do - not tell people it's your own fault that your home is destroyed and your children dead. This will serve only to force any nonaligned or questioning Palestinians into the arms of Hamas.

 

I assume that Israel would not want to accept responsibility for civilian damage as it would mean they would have to provide reparations to those affected. From the amount of damage evident on reports, this will not come cheap. But if this approach had been taken years ago, maybe the super expensive Iron Dome would not be necessary today. (Naturally a major tragedy for the military profiteers in Israel and the US, but that's another story).

 

 

 

 

The hearts and minds part is missing from both side's attitudes. There are some organizations trying to make headways but under current (well, actually rather constant) conditions it a bit like rowing upstream. Not to mention that these sort of organizations and the information they provide often get sucked in to represent point of view which do not necessarily do much to promote a solution, but more related to placing blame and keeping score.

 

The IDF and Israeli authorities do admit to mistakes, and do provide compensation under certain conditions. This is not normally something done in the midst of fighting, though, but after investigations are done with. The IDF does not have a vested interest killing civilians and making things messier than they already are - if it could take on the Hamas directly and without civilians getting in the way it would certainly be preferred.

 

Taking the position that all of the IDF claims are lies is an option, just not a very realistic one. There are more than enough documented evidence for the way Hamas does use residential areas and public buildings as shelter, which would probably make at least some of the cases in question less clear cut that some try to present. To say that the IDF calls are always on mark - probably not, and that is part of warfare too.

 

Not sure that the tone taken by some opinion columns, politicians being interviewed and posts on TVF actually reflects how things are phrased when the IDF addresses the local populace. That said, if my own house was bombed and family killed, don't know that I would care much for the niceties anyway.

 

The reparations issue is, as far as I understand (and no, I'm not a legal expert on this), not that big an issue really - on this front looks like Israel usually does cover itself quite alright, and technically works within the framework of international law. Again, this might not be the best way to go about it as far as PR and the whole hearts and minds go. But then it is not like the Hamas or any of the countries funding it ever offers to pay for Israeli damages as well.

 

To say that this approach would have made Iron Done redundant is not necessarily true. There is no guarantees that the Hamas would go for a peaceful resolution of conflict, quite the contrary. Going back further than this, well yes - but this is basically hindsight and with goodwill in short supply on both sides, it was never going to cut it. The love thy neighbor and turning the other cheek thing do not always make a viable policy in the Middle East. As for military profiteers - so far there isn't much direct financial profit to show for: Iron Dome was not sold to other countries, and the main contractor in Israel is a mostly government owned effort. I do agree that it takes an extra toll on the USA budget though, what with additional batteries being funded as emergency aid.
 

[Thorgal]

Issue not avoided. Issue was directly addressed. Suggesting ZIonism equals fascism is a disgusting lie. As far as anti-semitism, sorry, we are not all fools here. Look at the global protests now happening in the world ... massive amount of extremely blatant anti-semitism being displayed. That cannot be denied.

Zionism is not an antidote to Fascism but its junior partner in the death and destruction of Jews.

Both made plans together for massive deportation of Jews...

You think that the average Zionist likes your pep talk ?


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Edited July 26, 2014 by Thorgal

[CBR250]

Issue not avoided. Issue was directly addressed. Suggesting ZIonism equals fascism is a disgusting lie. As far as anti-semitism, sorry, we are not all fools here. Look at the global protests now happening in the world ... massive amount of extremely blatant anti-semitism being displayed. That cannot be denied.

 

Opposition to the Israeli theft of Palestinian land and the IDF disregard for international conventions does not constitute anti-semitism - except in the one-eyed world of the thoroughly brainwashed.

The protests can - and probably do - attract anti-Jewish racists. The depth of feeling against the excesses of the Israeli government and the IDF will lead to strange bedfellows. The majority of people at the protests do not appear to be anti-Jewish, especially given that the protesters include a significant proportion of Jews (secular and religious + a number of Rabbis). Are you seriously accusing Jews and Rabbis of anti-semitism??  No, on second thought, please don't bother wasting your time and my time with your non-answers. Just treat it as a rhetorical question.

 

And, finally, the Zionist enterprise of stealing Palestinian lands, destroying their culture, killing and gratuitously humiliating a people based on their religious affiliation sure looks like fascism for most people. Maybe you have some new definition of Zionism you have invented, a bit like Netanyahu's "peace is war" mindset. I think at this point in history most people equate Zionism with a bullying, dishonest and murderous group of people who have no right to claim a connection to the Torah and Judaism.

Edited July 26, 2014 by CBR250

[Jingthing]

What a load of twisted poison. Bottom line, it is totally obvious that many enthusiastic Israel demonizers wish Israel never came to be and hope it stops being. Often they say that explicitly, other times they play games and act like they respect the right of Israel to exist and defend itself, but quite often they obviously don't.

 

Never mind there are MILLIONS of Jews already living there, the vast majority of them BORN there. Trying to make up fictions that Hamas is not dedicated to the end of Israel. Trying to act like it is not totally normal for any country to defend itself from thousands of rocket attacks (and the same people would defend this if it was their OWN country) from a force dedicated to their destruction.  But somehow when it is Jews, no, Jews are not allowed to do that. What are Jews to think when confronted with such blatant anti-Jewish bias and hypocrisy ... especially in the context of history?

 

Who do you think is fooled? 

 

The anti-Israel propaganda is largely about making the entire idea of Israel (the material realization of Zionism) as a nation to appear not legitimate. 

 

As far as the wish that it never came to be ... well, I think that can be an interesting ACADEMIC argument, but we are totally beyond that now. So much of the roots of the Israel demonization seeks to OBSESS on their argument that Israel never deserved to exist in the first place. It is too late for that now as far as practical solutions for any hope of a future peace in that region, which has to account for the millions of Jews who live in their home country -- ISRAEL. 

Edited July 26, 2014 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

 

 the Zionist enterprise of stealing Palestinian lands, destroying their culture, killing and gratuitously humiliating a people based on their religious affiliation sure looks like fascism for most people.

 

 

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck...
 

[dr_lucas]

 

This can only be won by winning the hearts and minds of Gazan's. Netanyahu has played right into the hands of Hamas. Israel now looks like both the provocateur and the aggressor. Antagonism will now go on for a couple more generations. On UK news Israel is being portrayed as evil-doers, for what little it's worth.

 

 

Is it safe to assume that you're a "Guardian", "The Observer" or "The Mirror" reader and watching the "impartial" BBC?

 

 

If Israel had just kept bringing down Hamas homemade rockets, showed the World what was going on and how they were dealing with it and if they opened up to the Gazan's and helped them instead then Hamas would a. look stupid and b. their own would turn on them.

 

 

 

Correct. That's exactly what Israel is doing. It is bringing down the (over 10,000) rockets hidden all across Gaza, and the terror tunnels and they do show the world what's going on and how it is dealt with.

Go ahead, click the link: http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk/videos

[CBR250]

What a load o twisted poison. Bottom line, it is totally obvious that many enthusiastic Israel demonizers wish Israel never came to be and hope it stops being. Never mind there are MILLIONS of Jews already living there, the vast majority of them BORN there. Trying to make up fictions that Hamas is not dedicated to the end of Israel. Who do you think is fooled? 

 

As far as the wish that it never came to be ... well, I think that can be an interesting ACADEMIC argument, but we are totally beyond that now. So much of the roots of the Israel demonization seeks to OBSESS on their argument that Israel never deserved to exist in the first place.

 

Thankyou for illustrating my point about being brainwashed. If you bother - which I supect you won't, because you appear to lack the faculty for questioning -  you will find that I, and almost every person critical of Israel on this thread have never called for the destruction of Israel, or wished it had never come into being. On the contrary, many of those (and me) criticising the current Israeli leadership and IDF actions do so because they want the Jewish state to survive. But as a responsible international citizen, not as rogue state responsible for the murder of women and children.

 

In fact, in view of my own support for the concept and existence of a Jewish state, I chose to live in Israel for some time a few years ago. I developed friendships with many Israelis who today are ashamed to see what their country has come to.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

Still others suggest that the accusation that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel is not just selective misquoting, but an outright lie.

Oh really?

Article 7 of the Hamas Charter reads:

"The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews."

That is pretty hard to spin. for anything other that what it is.

 

 

Is that taken from the official IDF or AIPAC translation?

 

 

 

 

As an Arab myself and fluent in Arabic I can vouch for the translation as 100% accurate.

[Jingthing]

Hamas is actually more responsible the deaths of those children. They knew what launching rockets from civilian areas would mean. Using the word murder is totally loaded in a war situation. 

 

If a person wishes not to be seen as a rabid Israel demonizer, I would suggest backing off from inflamed rhetoric such as accusing Zionists of being child murderers. That is exactly what anti-semitic Hamas was looking for in their cynical tactic of using human shields. This poison has even been used in some protests to revive the ancient "blood libel" attacks against the Jews.

Get real, OK? It is not Israeli policy to murder innocent children.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

 

many of Israel's problems these days grow from its decision not to conquer territory, but to relinquish territory.  Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza and it was returned to Palestine.  Israeli's left standing its greenhouses for the Palestinians after uprooting its citizens.

 

What did the palestinians do?  Tear down the greenhouses, built tunnels and brought in weapons.  Now partnered with Hamas,  whose objective is to destroy Israel.  

 

 

 

You are conflating Palestinians and Hamas. I would not conflate Zionist fascists, Jews and Israelis, as it preents an understanding of the dynamics of the situation.

 

And you could consider that things ma be not really so simple re Hamas. Hamas have been a little coy about the original charter that called for the destruction of Israel. Even at present in the midst of the destruction of much of Gaza by Israelis we do not hear Khaled Meshaal or other Hamas leaders voicing this sentiment. Most Palestinians, and even Hamas in their quieter moments, accept the existence of Israel. Of course, there are some murderous radicals who live on hatred, just as there are amongst Zionists. Still others suggest that the accusation that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel is not just selective misquoting, but an outright lie.

(see for example: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/confused-hamas-rockets-war-gaza-plus-israeli-occupation-lawful-versus-unlawful-war-israel-illegal-weapons-targeting-hospitals.html) So, Hamas position is maybe not so simple as you suggest.

 

And your attitude to "territory" is precisely why many in the international community are suspicious of Israel. Land theft seems far more important to those Zionists in control of Israel than does a 2 state solution which could bring peace to both peoples. If you examine the changes in boundaries since 1967, Israel is clearly stealing Palestinian land. The constant de-railing of any glimmers of light in the peace process is indicative of this agenda amongst Israel's leaders. They accept extending the conflict and sacrificing lives (preferably Palestinian, but Israelis too where necessary) just so long as they can keep stealing land.

 

 

The Hamas are Palestinians. And if media images and reports are to be held true, they actually garner quite a lot of support even under current conditions. Bear in mind they have done well in most elections and polls, even in the West Bank. Easier under the old formula - all Hamas are Palestinians, not all Palestinians are Hamas. Fact is, though, that their base of support is rather firm and wide.

 

Most Israelis (excluding Arabs and Orthodox Jews) would define themselves as Zionist, although it may carry very different meanings across the range of Israelis involved. This has very little to do with identifying as right wing, most of the political parties that constitute the center and left wing of Israeli politics will include a measure (or an outright mention) of Zionist ideals and notions. Conflating Zionism with fascism is basically attesting to a rather limited view of the various ways in which this term is employed and understood in the Israeli context.

 

The Hamas Charter? I do not think it appears on most of their websites for some years now. Rather they use their elections manifest as a substitute. This had several reasons to begin with, mostly to do with presenting itself as a viable alternative for the PA, and trying to pull some of the PA voters. Later on, when they did win, it became evident that some parts of the charter will just not do if they are to keep appearances and act as the official Palestinian representatives.

 

The various truce deals offered by Hamas are not peace offers as such. The idea of hudna is more of taking a breather from the struggle, to be renewed when conditions allow it. Even when there was talk about accepting the 1967 lines, for example, it did not specify outright recognition of Israel or a stance that these are to be final borders. There was more talk about 1967 lines as marking Palestine, less said about what lies beyond them lines and who holds the right to them. There are also some differences as to what Hamas says when it addresses foreign powers as opposed to what is said vs. regional powers and the home crowd. Differences are both of content and tone. To say that the rhetoric of Hamas leadership is somehow changed is a good example of this - local and regional media sound much different.

 

Most Palestinians accept the existence of Israel? Was there a poll? A referendum? Is there an active peace movement of consequence people are not aware of?

Does accepting Israel's existence mean acknowledging an undeniable fact? Making a true concession that Israel has the right to its existence? Is it a temporary stance as to the present situation only? Accepting can mean quite a lot of different things.

 

Not even going to bother debunking the points and information appearing in the link provided. Most of the points raised there were dealt with on other recent posts and topics. Covering the whole gamut again is not necessary. Israel demonstrated a certain willingness to trade territory for peace, or even just withdraw from some areas. This is the way things worked out in the Sinai peninsula (twice), southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, and yes - Israel also gave back control of some of the West Bank back to the Palestinians. Placing all the responsibility for peace talks, negotiaions and agreements going nowhere, getting derails or stalled with Israel is, once again, not a very good indication of having a clear grasp of how things panned out and the realities of the conflict.

[uptheos]

 

 

 

many of Israel's problems these days grow from its decision not to conquer territory, but to relinquish territory.  Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza and it was returned to Palestine.  Israeli's left standing its greenhouses for the Palestinians after uprooting its citizens.

 

What did the palestinians do?  Tear down the greenhouses, built tunnels and brought in weapons.  Now partnered with Hamas,  whose objective is to destroy Israel.  

 

 

 

 we do not hear Khaled Meshaal or other Hamas leaders voicing this sentiment..

 

 

What we do hear from Khaled Meshaal is a long list of demands that he knows will never be met.

All made from his luxurious suite in Doha. Does this guy ever get close to 'his' people in reality?

 

 

You seriously expect him to go to Gaza with Isarel's long history of political assassinations???  C'mon, offer something sensible.
 

 

 

He's just a coward, loading bullets for others to fire!

And if the Israeli's did assassinate him it might be the making of his people. 

Edited July 26, 2014 by uptheos

[Morch]

 

 

Still others suggest that the accusation that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel is not just selective misquoting, but an outright lie.

Oh really?

Article 7 of the Hamas Charter reads:

"The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews."

That is pretty hard to spin. for anything other that what it is.

 

 

Is that taken from the official IDF or AIPAC translation?

 

 

 

 

I would guess that there are several translations around. Would you care to provide an alternative one? Or, for that

matter, give any clear idea as to why you find such phrases unreal?
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

many of Israel's problems these days grow from its decision not to conquer territory, but to relinquish territory.  Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza and it was returned to Palestine.  Israeli's left standing its greenhouses for the Palestinians after uprooting its citizens.

 

What did the palestinians do?  Tear down the greenhouses, built tunnels and brought in weapons.  Now partnered with Hamas,  whose objective is to destroy Israel.  

 

 

 

 we do not hear Khaled Meshaal or other Hamas leaders voicing this sentiment..

 

 

What we do hear from Khaled Meshaal is a long list of demands that he knows will never be met.

All made from his luxurious suite in Doha. Does this guy ever get close to 'his' people in reality?

 

 

You seriously expect him to go to Gaza with Isarel's long history of political assassinations???  C'mon, offer something sensible.
 

 

 

Interesting.

 

So, to get this straight - fearless leader is living a life of luxury, controlling some serious funds supposed to be used for the benefit of his people, while the same people are being readily sacrificed for the cause and living in the cesspit that is Gaza....

 

I can see how carrying on the good fight and not giving an inch on demands serves his people best. Everyone must do their bit, I guess.

 

Same goes for Hamas leadership in the Gaza Strip. Most of them down bellow safe and sound, digging in their positions also on negotiations, while the common people get a raw deal. All them tunnels dug under Gaza could have served as a rather proper air raid shelters for the masses. For some reason, only some get the benefit.

[up-country_sinclair]

 

 

 

 

 

 we do not hear Khaled Meshaal or other Hamas leaders voicing this sentiment..

 

 

What we do hear from Khaled Meshaal is a long list of demands that he knows will never be met.

All made from his luxurious suite in Doha. Does this guy ever get close to 'his' people in reality?

 

 

You seriously expect him to go to Gaza with Isarel's long history of political assassinations???  C'mon, offer something sensible.
 

 

 

He's just a coward, loading bullets for others to fire!

 

 

 

 

Unlike Netanyahu who is on the ground in Gaza, right? 

Edited July 26, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[dr_lucas]

Hamas is actually more responsible the deaths of those children. They knew what launching rockets from civilian areas would mean. Using the word murder is totally loaded in a war situation. 

 

If a person wishes not to be seen as a rabid Israel demonizer, I would suggest backing off from inflamed rhetoric such as accusing Zionists of being child murderers. That is exactly what anti-semitic Hamas was looking for in their cynical tactic of using human shields. This poison has even been used in some protests to revive the ancient "blood libel" attacks against the Jews.

Get real, OK? It is not Israeli policy to murder innocent children.

 

It is not just "loaded" to call it murder, it is a blatant lie, as to classify death/killing as murder requires intent, and he knows that.

It has always been Israel's demonizers and left-wing radicals' way to use the harshest definitions and lies against Israel just to make a point.

Edited July 26, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Morch]

 

 

...

You are conflating Palestinians and Hamas. I would not conflate Zionist fascists, Jews and Israelis, as it preents an understanding of the dynamics of the situation.

 

Funny. 

You just seemed to imply that all Zionists are fascists.

That is completely untrue.

I am sick and tired of Israel demonizers acting like Zionism is a dirty word.

I guess it is not surprising because so much of the world considers Jew a dirty word too.

Usually the same people!

 

 

I'm done apologizing for Israel.

It's tiring to apologize over and over. Instead, I've decided to come clean: I am a progressive American rabbi who leans left pretty hard. I've been engaged, as a US faith leader, in work to reform gun laws, extend LGBT rights around the world, grant refuge to illegal immigrants, protect women's reproductive choice, and more.Paint me blue.

So, when it comes to Israel, many of those with whom I engage in social reform expect me to react to Israel's military actions in Gaza with scorn and criticism. To be fair, there are times when I do. My Zionism demands I speak out on behalf of the Israel that remains, in my world-view, the most ambitious project-in-process of the Jewish People. Whereas Israel's 66 short years have witnessed strength and resilience that have redefined Jewish identity in profound ways, the global Jewish family remains interwoven with Israel. If you question this, scan the last week's news for anti-Israel rallies in Antwerp, Los Angeles, Paris, Boston, and elsewhere that featured widespread anti-Semitic chants and violence against Jews.

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html

 

 

 

What do you mean? Even Meir Dagan, the former head of Mossad has criticised them?

 

 

http://972mag.com/why-dagan-duty-is-to-express-his-dissent/15697/

 

 

Nope.

Dagan criticized the government, which was made of right wing and religious oriented parties.  The criticism had more to do with the government stance and handling of Iran, and had absolutely nothing  to do with what some posters think Zionism is. So again, Zionism is not a notion only right wing parties in Israel uphold, in various meanings it is quite the foundation of most non-Arab/non-Jewish Orthodox parties manifest.

 

Doubt Dagan sees himself as anything but a Zionist, by the way. It is just that the term means different things to different people. The interpretation often presented by some in TVF is sorely lacking.
 

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What we do hear from Khaled Meshaal is a long list of demands that he knows will never be met.

All made from his luxurious suite in Doha. Does this guy ever get close to 'his' people in reality?

 

 

You seriously expect him to go to Gaza with Isarel's long history of political assassinations???  C'mon, offer something sensible.
 

 

 

He's just a coward, loading bullets for others to fire!

 

 

 

 

Unlike Netanyahu who is on the ground in Gaza, right? 

 

 

You guys enjoy wasting time & forum real-estate on silly discussions? 

Edited July 26, 2014 by dr_lucas

[uptheos]

 

 

Unlike Netanyahu who is on the ground in Gaza, right?  

 

 

Why on earth would the president of Israel be in Gaza? He's in Israel with his people.

Toddle off old chap and do get a grip.

 

[dr_lucas]

 

 

You just seemed to imply that all Zionists are fascists.

 

 

That is completely untrue.

I am sick and tired of Israel demonizers acting like Zionism is a dirty word.

I guess it is not surprising because so much of the world considers Jew a dirty word too.

Usually the same people!

 

 

I'm done apologizing for Israel.

It's tiring to apologize over and over. Instead, I've decided to come clean: I am a progressive American rabbi who leans left pretty hard. I've been engaged, as a US faith leader, in work to reform gun laws, extend LGBT rights around the world, grant refuge to illegal immigrants, protect women's reproductive choice, and more.Paint me blue.

So, when it comes to Israel, many of those with whom I engage in social reform expect me to react to Israel's military actions in Gaza with scorn and criticism. To be fair, there are times when I do. My Zionism demands I speak out on behalf of the Israel that remains, in my world-view, the most ambitious project-in-process of the Jewish People. Whereas Israel's 66 short years have witnessed strength and resilience that have redefined Jewish identity in profound ways, the global Jewish family remains interwoven with Israel. If you question this, scan the last week's news for anti-Israel rallies in Antwerp, Los Angeles, Paris, Boston, and elsewhere that featured widespread anti-Semitic chants and violence against Jews.

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html

 

 

 

What do you mean? Even Meir Dagan, the former head of Mossad has criticised them?

 

 

http://972mag.com/why-dagan-duty-is-to-express-his-dissent/15697/

 

 

 

Doubt Dagan sees himself as anything but a Zionist, by the way. It is just that the term means different things to different

people. The interpretation often presented by some in TVF is sorely lacking.
 

 

 

That's a HUGE understatement. I think we should start asking posters for their definition of the word each time they mention it. I'm sure some answers will be extremely surprising.

Edited July 26, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

 

What we do hear from Khaled Meshaal is a long list of demands that he knows will never be met.

All made from his luxurious suite in Doha. Does this guy ever get close to 'his' people in reality?

 

 

You seriously expect him to go to Gaza with Isarel's long history of political assassinations???  C'mon, offer something sensible.
 

 

 

He's just a coward, loading bullets for others to fire!

 

 

 

 

Unlike Netanyahu who is on the ground in Gaza, right? 

 

 

No one expects Mashal to lead the fighting in person, no need to be ridiculous. Israeli ministers do visit the areas and towns in Israel near Gaza, at least on one occasions when showing visitors around:  http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rockets-land-during-Norwegian-FMs-visit-to-Ashkelon-363034  Some of the Israeli government meetings in Jerusalem are sometimes held in a shelter, as well.

 

 

[uptheos]

 

Interesting.

 

So, to get this straight - fearless leader is living a life of luxury, controlling some serious funds supposed to be used for

the benefit of his people, while the same people are being readily sacrificed for the cause and living in the cesspit that

is Gaza....

 

I can see how carrying on the good fight and not giving an inch on demands serves his people best. Everyone must do

their bit, I guess.

 

Same goes for Hamas leadership in the Gaza Strip. Most of them down bellow safe and sound, digging in their positions

also on negotiations, while the common people get a raw deal. All them tunnels dug under Gaza could have served as a

rather proper air raid shelters for the masses. For some reason, only some get the benefit.

 

 

The people are forced to live out in the open and be killed, so that Hamas can increase its propaganda.

I would have though it clear that the more people Hamas can place in areas that fire rockets and have tunnels, the more TV coverage they will have of dead Palestinians. I doubt if the people on the ground have a choice, it's either stay where you are or we will kill you. Hamas revels in dead Palestinians as well as Israeli's, this is what makes them so evi

 

[Ulysses G.]

Issue not avoided. Issue was directly addressed. Suggesting ZIonism equals fascism is a disgusting lie. As far as anti-semitism, sorry, we are not all fools here. Look at the global protests now happening in the world ... massive amount of extremely blatant anti-semitism being displayed. That cannot be denied.

That's a FACT:

Since the beginning of the current war between Israel and Hamas, eight synagogues in France have been attacked. In Turkey, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has asked for Jews to apologize for the actions of the Jewish state. In Germany, a prominent Muslim imam gave a sermon asking Allah to kill all of the Zionist Jews.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/25/europe-s-jews-blamed-for-israel-s-war.html

Neo-Nazis take centre stage at London anti-Israel protests

Prominent Holocaust deniers took centre stage during recent anti-Israel demonstrations in London, where participants included such prominent neo-Nazis as James Thring and Lady Michèle Renouf, as well as members of the far-Right Neturei Karta sect. The protest was organised by a variety of far-Left and extreme Islamist organisations, including War on Want, Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coalition, Islamic Forum of Europe, British Muslim Initiative, Palestinian Forum in Britain and Friends of Al Aqsa
http://standforpeace...srael-protests/


According to the Rundschau, student organization Left-SDS, Islamists and some members of the Neo-Nazi group National Socialists Rhein-Main attended the anti-Israel protest. Flags from Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Hamas were on display at the protest.
http://www.jpost.com...peration-362742

http://standforpeace...srael-protests/


Lots of photos and a video showing thousands of Frenchmen yelling Jews, France is not yours, while marching through Paris giving Nazi salutes.


http://americablog.c...get-france.html Edited July 26, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

An off-topic discussion has been deleted.  

[dexterm]

 

Issue not avoided. Issue was directly addressed. Suggesting ZIonism equals fascism is a disgusting lie. As far as anti-semitism, sorry, we are not all fools here. Look at the global protests now happening in the world ... massive amount of extremely blatant anti-semitism being displayed. That cannot be denied.

That a FACT:

Since the beginning of the current war between Israel and Hamas, eight synagogues in France have been attacked. In Turkey, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has asked for Jews to apologize for the actions of the Jewish state. In Germany, a prominent Muslim imam gave a sermon asking Allah to kill all of the Zionist Jews.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/25/europe-s-jews-blamed-for-israel-s-war.html

Neo-Nazis take centre stage at London anti-Israel protests

Prominent Holocaust deniers took centre stage during recent anti-Israel demonstrations in London, where participants included such prominent neo-Nazis as James Thring and Lady Michèle Renouf, as well as members of the far-Right Neturei Karta sect. The protest was organised by a variety of far-Left and extreme Islamist organisations, including War on Want, Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coalition, Islamic Forum of Europe, British Muslim Initiative, Palestinian Forum in Britain and Friends of Al Aqsa
http://standforpeace...srael-protests/


According to the Rundschau, student organization Left-SDS, Islamists and some members of the Neo-Nazi group National Socialists Rhein-Main attended the anti-Israel protest. Flags from Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Hamas were on display at the protest.
http://www.jpost.com...peration-362742

http://standforpeace...srael-protests/


Lots of photos and a video showing thousands of Frenchmen yelling Jews, France is not yours, while marching through Paris giving Nazi salutes.


http://americablog.c...get-france.html

 

 

Ignoring for a moment that you have in the past been completely unable to define what a Jew actually is. 

 

It is Netanyahu who 7 years ago after all Arab states had agreed to recognize the State of Israel, moved the goalposts and starting asking for recognition of the Jewish State of Israel, thus instantly making Israeli Arabs even more second class citizens that they already are. He's the one bringing Jews into the equation, he's the one massacring innocent civilians in Gaza in the name of hisJewish State, Is it any wonder when he stirs up this hornets' nest that he gets an anti Semitic reaction in many parts of the world.

Netanyahu is responsible for all this.

 

If he wants to reduce anti Semitism, then get out of Gaza and the West Bank, and make peace with your neighbors

Edited July 26, 2014 by dexterm

[dexterm]

 

 

Interesting.

 

So, to get this straight - fearless leader is living a life of luxury, controlling some serious funds supposed to be used for

the benefit of his people, while the same people are being readily sacrificed for the cause and living in the cesspit that

is Gaza....

 

I can see how carrying on the good fight and not giving an inch on demands serves his people best. Everyone must do

their bit, I guess.

 

Same goes for Hamas leadership in the Gaza Strip. Most of them down bellow safe and sound, digging in their positions

also on negotiations, while the common people get a raw deal. All them tunnels dug under Gaza could have served as a

rather proper air raid shelters for the masses. For some reason, only some get the benefit.

 

 

The people are forced to live out in the open and be killed, so that Hamas can increase its propaganda.

I would have though it clear that the more people Hamas can place in areas that fire rockets and have tunnels, the more TV coverage they will have of dead Palestinians. I doubt if the people on the ground have a choice, it's either stay where you are or we will kill you. Hamas revels in dead Palestinians as well as Israeli's, this is what makes them so evi

 

 

 

If this is the truth, why doesn't Israel present their evidence to a UN investigation? Otherwise it just remains Israeli propaganda.