Thailand Immigration confirms new overstay rules are now official

[arunsakda]

None of this is retroactive is it? I mean I did have a 3 year overstay a couple of years ago.....I am going to Laos tonite for a non O based on being a father......

Can I ask ? Are you over 50? I looked (a little) into this and saw a sticky on this subject saying you must be over 50 to use this exception (or whatever the technical term would be)

Also,

I thought the rules weren't to be enforced until August 12th? So now it's as of the 20th of this month?

Lots of people are FKED

They was FKED the day they decided to overstay.!!!! I don't want to be evil to people, but right now many a crying about the new rules there is in forced. Accept this is there's country and there's rules and laws, you are allowed to stay here as a guest. People had plenty of time to sort this out. Like another member said. I'm a customer. Or Some other said I used 100000 of baht every month here or millions every year, I'm a good customer. Yes you are a good customer, but you have to accept you are a guest and you have to followed the laws. You can not demand

Yes there are rules and law, and the law is for overstay is the maximum fine 20000 baht, and the was no other risk, so why you damm people for doing overstay?

SO you never drove motorbike without helmet? or you never drove to fast in Thailand?

or you never paid a woman for a night ? (Prostitution is illegal)

so you break the law and what would you think if the the fine would include to be black listed?

there are many reasons to be on an overstay, even can be a clear decision,

I was thinking about, I had a NON O Multientry and had to make visarund every 3 month,

took a day, budriving made me sick, costs about 1500 Baht, so if you calculate all together,

then why not use this optiion pay 20000 Baht and come back. This was the rule until now, and if somebody made it,

then he made the cecision, but this not make people a criminal!

breaking law in Thailand is very easy and get fined much easier, even you do nothing wroong

It don't make it more right, you breaking the law

My friend had a motorbike accident here in Thailand . He was unable to make the border , because he was in ICU. Got fined 1500 bath for overstay even he was in ICU. He did not decided to overstay and it was legitimate. People there is lazy, or I don't care, make the choice to overstay people saying I'm a rich farang ,I have the money I pay the fine I don't care I just pay. This is the one I see as abuser and FKED

No I don't break any laws. Don't go with girls, don't drink, because I'm one of them there is in Thailand cause of religion and want to become a monk. I have already been in the temple as white monk.

Did your injured friend not liason with the hospital staff to get a medical exemption based in signed documents by attending physician?

[CroBiker]

Remember this case?

http://www.phuketgazette.net/articles/articles/get_article_detail/4818

[John1thru10]

So......you're a serial over-stayer. Not a very good attitude now, is it?

It's ok when they aren't offended by it. But then again, most places I go to, I'm invited by local governments to be there. Maybe it's because I'm a well known artist, and they say I'm a benefit to the culture to have me I know, you hate that. But not everyone's life is like yours, ha

[Lopchan]

Furthermore, if we are now into obeying laws, there is a little matter of international human rights law and not splitting up families. That would be a good law to start obeying.

This is one avenue I'm possibly going to pursue as Thailand is a signatory to the Hague convention and other Child welfare conventions.

[pjmansions]

Again another rule published without any thought and open to interpretation by officers that basically reads if i overstay one day in error will be arrested and deported and not allowed to return for 5 years ... another ruling so poorly conceived

[shocky2004]

I have a friend who had an overstay of over a year.Last week he paid the penalty and left for a neighbouring country to obtain a visa. Unfortunately he did not have the correct paperwork and is currently awaiting this paperwork. Now that the new penalties are in force, is he likely to have a problem on his return to Thailand?

bump

[LivinLOS]

I know my actions can get consequences when I overstay, but I am really surprised that I can`t get a chance to make it right.

That is really bad news for my family here, and could easily have been avoided by the immigration.

We are many in the same situation, who just want to make this right, and stay here legally.

But in your position.. your chances of simply paying your overstay in the next few days and being allowed to return are quite high.. After a while they will be very low..

Surely you can scrap together 20k to clear things now.. In the next 48 hours.. And get back on good standing.

Yes its a risk, but much less of one than for sure going into the deportation and blacklisting certainty, which will be the case very soon.

[Enjoyurlife]

Funny how people like to point out western countries blacklist over stayers too but never mention you CANNOT over stay a visa if you are married to a citizen in the west because you don't need one. You will be given residency.

Furthermore, if we are now into obeying laws, there is a little matter of international human rights law and not splitting up families. That would be a good law to start obeying.

I overstayed a year and half in France - I went to turn myself in, and they said they couldn't care less. No fines, no anything. I was brought to Paris as a guest of the mayor's office - even they didn't bother to get me the right visa to begin with, because they said it didn't matter.

I overstayed in Berlin (Schengen region) a year, and traveled all over Europe from there by airport the whole time. No fines, no anything.

I overstayed in Poland by 4 months, the officer said when I was leaving, 'What were you doing here all this time?' (4 months + 3 months automatic), and I explained I was working as an artist. Ok. No fines, no anything.

Thailand visa rules are what they are. We get it. But it's so tiresome to read that false meme here, that 'all other countries are stricter!'...it's just not true.

What a wonderful story, and that's all it is

[John1thru10]

Funny how people like to point out western countries blacklist over stayers too but never mention you CANNOT over stay a visa if you are married to a citizen in the west because you don't need one. You will be given residency.

Furthermore, if we are now into obeying laws, there is a little matter of international human rights law and not splitting up families. That would be a good law to start obeying.

I overstayed a year and half in France - I went to turn myself in, and they said they couldn't care less. No fines, no anything. I was brought to Paris as a guest of the mayor's office - even they didn't bother to get me the right visa to begin with, because they said it didn't matter.

I overstayed in Berlin (Schengen region) a year, and traveled all over Europe from there by airport the whole time. No fines, no anything.

I overstayed in Poland by 4 months, the officer said when I was leaving, 'What were you doing here all this time?' (4 months + 3 months automatic), and I explained I was working as an artist. Ok. No fines, no anything.

Thailand visa rules are what they are. We get it. But it's so tiresome to read that false meme here, that 'all other countries are stricter!'...it's just not true.

What a wonderful story, and that's all it is

Sorry you can't deal with it, but it's just factual.

Edited July 22, 2014 by John1thru10

[arunsakda]

So......you're a serial over-stayer. Not a very good attitude now, is it?

It's ok when they aren't offended by it. But then again, most places I go to, I'm invited by local governments to be there. Maybe it's because I'm a well known artist, and they say I'm a benefit to the culture to have me I know, you hate that. But not everyone's life is like yours, ha

Sure you are very accomplished, but the art world is fickle. One day you are a Champagne toast of the town, months later when visa expire kicked out on the ass by immigration. Can you believe the ham fisted daubings of this great artist got a big show and likely sell for thousands? Edited July 22, 2014 by arunsakda

[John1thru10]

So......you're a serial over-stayer. Not a very good attitude now, is it?

It's ok when they aren't offended by it. But then again, most places I go to, I'm invited by local governments to be there. Maybe it's because I'm a well known artist, and they say I'm a benefit to the culture to have me I know, you hate that. But not everyone's life is like yours, ha

Sure you are very accomplished, but the art world is fickle. One day you are a Champagne toast of the town, months later when visa expire kicked out on the ass by immigration. Can you believe the ham fisted daubings of this great artist got a big ahow and likely sell for thousands?ImageUploadedByTapatalk1406041582.559757.jpg

That's another reality, yes They are very fickle. This is off topic now. This point was, other countries are not all much stricter, as some people here try to say. And thank goodness, too.

Edited July 22, 2014 by John1thru10

[GeorgeIII]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I know my actions can get consequences when I overstay, but I am really surprised that I can`t get a chance to make it right.

That is really bad news for my family here, and could easily have been avoided by the immigration.

We are many in the same situation, who just want to make this right, and stay here legally.

But in your position.. your chances of simply paying your overstay in the next few days and being allowed to return are quite high.. After a while they will be very low..

Surely you can scrap together 20k to clear things now.. In the next 48 hours.. And get back on good standing.

Yes its a risk, but much less of one than for sure going into the deportation and blacklisting certainty, which will be the case very soon.

Immigration has shown compassion to people in this position in the past and I expect them to continue to do so in the future, they are not monsters.

LivinLOS, where are you getting 48 hours from? All information is the black list system is in force now.

[philw]

Thank God! Finally the rule of law in Thailand. I have been here 6 years and many years in other countries and never missed a filing for 90 day residency or renewal of my Retirement Visa and nobody else should be exempt as well. Every other country provides even stiffer penalties for overstays, like being Blacklisted. Play by the rules of law or suffer the penalties. We are a "guest" in Thailand so it is their rules and not ours. Don't like it, then move. Simple.

The usual brainless TV nonsense.

People do fall between the cracks, you know..............

What is lacking in these new rules is the complete absence of recognition of any extenuating circumstances.

[LivinLOS]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I know my actions can get consequences when I overstay, but I am really surprised that I can`t get a chance to make it right.

That is really bad news for my family here, and could easily have been avoided by the immigration.

We are many in the same situation, who just want to make this right, and stay here legally.

But in your position.. your chances of simply paying your overstay in the next few days and being allowed to return are quite high.. After a while they will be very low..

Surely you can scrap together 20k to clear things now.. In the next 48 hours.. And get back on good standing.

Yes its a risk, but much less of one than for sure going into the deportation and blacklisting certainty, which will be the case very soon.

Immigration has shown compassion to people in this position in the past and I expect them to continue to do so in the future, they are not monsters.

LivinLOS, where are you getting 48 hours from? All information is the black list system is in force now.

The system was started when ?? Today ??

If you arrived at the border with childs birth cert, a good attitude, and 20k immediately.. I would think you would have a very good chance of getting out with only the payment.

Remember the rule is 90 days before blacklisting.. If you can gently say that the 90 day clock could possibly start as the law was introduced.. it gives them a locial way to let you get away with it.. Sometimes they just need that bit of reason why..

I am pretty sure in another week or two all chance of this will be gone.. The rules will be in place.. But while they are still new and fresh, I would think theres hope. At least a lot more hope than ignoring it and hoping it resolves itself.

[John1thru10]

If you're married to a Thai, or maybe just have children together - and you move to Laos, or Cambodia - how easy is it for that family to join you there? How about in the UK or EU?

[MJCM]

If you're married to a Thai, or maybe just have children together - and you move to Laos, or Cambodia - how easy is it for that family to join you there? How about in the UK or EU?

Cambodia is quite easy, she only needs a passport.

My wife cant (not on short notice) come and live with me in Europe (Schengen) as I am not a registered citizen anymore.

Oke she can come for 3 months holiday, but then she must leave and only after I lived in my Home country for at least 6 months I maybe can start the process to get her over there. But thats a many month process, which even involves that she must take a language skill test (imagine, Thai immigration did that for foreigners that want to live here with their Thai wives;))

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

Edited July 22, 2014 by MJCM

[Bangon]

• If you overstay less than 90 days - how severe is the penalty then?

You'll end up in the Immigration jail for starters if caught in a cell big enough for 4, with 50 others .

Depends if he has any money,he could be kept in the departure holding room on the ground floor.

I have to wonder if the Immigration Detention Center has had any input into this new ruling or they have just recently offloaded a lot of Asian overstayers as to make room for the massive influx of new guests(farang)due to the rushing in of a law without any amnesty for people to become legal.

The personal impact on families in Thailand financially and emotionally will be devastating and this at a time when tourism is also being hit hard by the uncertainty around the country.

I understand the new penalties but not the introduction of a pre-determined amnesty that would less burden the detention system and the terrible affect it will have on many.

As one poster has already alluded to what is the point of trying to clear an overstay now if the punishment is not being with your kids for years!...for me it is verging on becoming a human rights issue.

Another mess that really should of been given a lot more thought and planning.Good luck to anybody affected by this and to those who are not ......"there for the grace of god go i"

[Tomtomtom69]

Normally immigration will not check on the way to the airport. But I suspect that if they see that you have a ticket out and plan to leave and deal with the overstay they will just allow you to go to the airport.

Deportation would be a lot of unnesecarry paperwork.

While I strongly agree that you should always keep a low profile if you are an overstayer, since when is Thailand a police state that performs random inspection of foreigner's documents like during the Nazi Germany era or the Cold War? What do ordinary police know about reading a foreigner's passport stamps with everything in English (why aren't Thai stamps in Thai when English isn't the local language - Chinese stamps are in Chinese so why don't the Thais do the same with their stamps)? Go figure that one out...anyway, I digress.

Not to mention that the vast majority of local police aren't immigration officers nor do they have the same powers as immigration officers (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be highly surprised if I were). As I said I understand the need to be careful when one has overstayed, but please tell me an instance of random passport inspections? All I can think of IF they happened is that racial profiling would be used as the motive and that's a dangerous precedent that Thailand should not start following - many of us have heard about the outrage a law in Arizona has made on this issue. The reality of course is that random inspections DON'T commonly occur in Thailand - they may legitimately occur as part of an immigration sweep where someone made a tip-off to immigration (and that's when they can be justified). This is the normal procedure in most normal countries - you can't just hassle foreigners and ask them for ID without good cause to suspect they have done something wrong. I know this principle is not followed down in lower Suk, although with the number of drug traders, foreign prostitutes down there plying their trade, that's not unexpected but elsewhere I think it's unacceptable and unjustifiable.

Fortunately however, it's mostly scaremongering expats that try to get us all to believe that all police everywhere throughout the country are going to ask for our passports. As you say they aren't going to check on the way to the airport - besides, when was the last time you saw a roadblock on the Bangkok-Chonburi motorway with the specific task of asking to see everyone's passport to catch potential overstayers?! And even if there was ever a time when police would ask to see a passport, most likely they won't be able to read your name, look at anything than the front page of your passport to ascertain your identity and ask a Thai speaking person nearby for an explanation of what's contained within.

[larsjohnsson]

Funny how people like to point out western countries blacklist over stayers too but never mention you CANNOT over stay a visa if you are married to a citizen in the west because you don't need one. You will be given residency.

Furthermore, if we are now into obeying laws, there is a little matter of international human rights law and not splitting up families. That would be a good law to start obeying.

I overstayed a year and half in France - I went to turn myself in, and they said they couldn't care less. No fines, no anything. I was brought to Paris as a guest of the mayor's office - even they didn't bother to get me the right visa to begin with, because they said it didn't matter.

I overstayed in Berlin (Schengen region) a year, and traveled all over Europe from there by airport the whole time. No fines, no anything.

I overstayed in Poland by 4 months, the officer said when I was leaving, 'What were you doing here all this time?' (4 months + 3 months automatic), and I explained I was working as an artist. Ok. No fines, no anything.

Thailand visa rules are what they are. We get it. But it's so tiresome to read that false meme here, that 'all other countries are stricter!'...it's just not true.

What a wonderful story, and that's all it is

One out of 200 different stories from him in less than a week.

[John1thru10]

Normally immigration will not check on the way to the airport. But I suspect that if they see that you have a ticket out and plan to leave and deal with the overstay they will just allow you to go to the airport.

Deportation would be a lot of unnesecarry paperwork.

While I strongly agree that you should always keep a low profile if you are an overstayer, since when is Thailand a police state that performs random inspection of foreigner's documents like during the Nazi Germany era or the Cold War? What do ordinary police know about reading a foreigner's passport stamps with everything in English (why aren't Thai stamps in Thai when English isn't the local language - Chinese stamps are in Chinese so why don't the Thais do the same with their stamps)? Go figure that one out...anyway, I digress.

Not to mention that the vast majority of local police aren't immigration officers nor do they have the same powers as immigration officers (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be highly surprised if I were). As I said I understand the need to be careful when one has overstayed, but please tell me an instance of random passport inspections? All I can think of IF they happened is that racial profiling would be used as the motive and that's a dangerous precedent that Thailand should not start following - many of us have heard about the outrage a law in Arizona has made on this issue. The reality of course is that random inspections DON'T commonly occur in Thailand - they may legitimately occur as part of an immigration sweep where someone made a tip-off to immigration (and that's when they can be justified). This is the normal procedure in most normal countries - you can't just hassle foreigners and ask them for ID without good cause to suspect they have done something wrong. I know this principle is not followed down in lower Suk, although with the number of drug traders, foreign prostitutes down there plying their trade, that's not unexpected but elsewhere I think it's unacceptable and unjustifiable.

Fortunately however, it's mostly scaremongering expats that try to get us all to believe that all police everywhere throughout the country are going to ask for our passports. As you say they aren't going to check on the way to the airport - besides, when was the last time you saw a roadblock on the Bangkok-Chonburi motorway with the specific task of asking to see everyone's passport to catch potential overstayers?! And even if there was ever a time when police would ask to see a passport, most likely they won't be able to read your name, look at anything than the front page of your passport to ascertain your identity and ask a Thai speaking person nearby for an explanation of what's contained within.

Edited July 22, 2014 by John1thru10

[larsjohnsson]

So......you're a serial over-stayer. Not a very good attitude now, is it?

It's ok when they aren't offended by it. But then again, most places I go to, I'm invited by local governments to be there. Maybe it's because I'm a well known artist, and they say I'm a benefit to the culture to have me I know, you hate that. But not everyone's life is like yours, ha

How many stories can you make up in one day ???

[John1thru10]

Funny how people like to point out western countries blacklist over stayers too but never mention you CANNOT over stay a visa if you are married to a citizen in the west because you don't need one. You will be given residency.

Furthermore, if we are now into obeying laws, there is a little matter of international human rights law and not splitting up families. That would be a good law to start obeying.

I overstayed a year and half in France - I went to turn myself in, and they said they couldn't care less. No fines, no anything. I was brought to Paris as a guest of the mayor's office - even they didn't bother to get me the right visa to begin with, because they said it didn't matter.

I overstayed in Berlin (Schengen region) a year, and traveled all over Europe from there by airport the whole time. No fines, no anything.

I overstayed in Poland by 4 months, the officer said when I was leaving, 'What were you doing here all this time?' (4 months + 3 months automatic), and I explained I was working as an artist. Ok. No fines, no anything.

Thailand visa rules are what they are. We get it. But it's so tiresome to read that false meme here, that 'all other countries are stricter!'...it's just not true.

What a wonderful story, and that's all it is

One out of 200 different stories from him in less than a week.

I never tell lies. I just don't need to. I'm sorry your lives are more humdrum by comparison, if that's the case.

Edited July 22, 2014 by John1thru10

[John1thru10]

Funny how people like to point out western countries blacklist over stayers too but never mention you CANNOT over stay a visa if you are married to a citizen in the west because you don't need one. You will be given residency.

Furthermore, if we are now into obeying laws, there is a little matter of international human rights law and not splitting up families. That would be a good law to start obeying.

I overstayed a year and half in France - I went to turn myself in, and they said they couldn't care less. No fines, no anything. I was brought to Paris as a guest of the mayor's office - even they didn't bother to get me the right visa to begin with, because they said it didn't matter.

I overstayed in Berlin (Schengen region) a year, and traveled all over Europe from there by airport the whole time. No fines, no anything.

I overstayed in Poland by 4 months, the officer said when I was leaving, 'What were you doing here all this time?' (4 months + 3 months automatic), and I explained I was working as an artist. Ok. No fines, no anything.

Thailand visa rules are what they are. We get it. But it's so tiresome to read that false meme here, that 'all other countries are stricter!'...it's just not true.

What a wonderful story, and that's all it is

One out of 200 different stories from him in less than a week.

That's not true, my stories are consistent, because they're just the tuth. What's the matter with you, that you're so paranoid? I'm a pretty well known artist, I've had the chance to travel a great deal, I'm often invited by the countries I visit (most always), and there's nothing so fantasitcal about that, frankly.

The point of relating this - just to help you comprehend - is that 'all other countries' are not, in fact, more strict than Thailand, as the person wrote.

Edited July 22, 2014 by John1thru10

[thaibreaker]

If you're married to a Thai, or maybe just have children together - and you move to Laos, or Cambodia - how easy is it for that family to join you there? How about in the UK or EU?

These are questions to figure out for us in the near future.

Norway can be an option, but she has all her contacts, family and work here. She can easily access Thailand from a neighbouring country for visits and some work.

So we will see. But I guess as soon as I cross the border myself, my 3 years ban will go into effect.

I can`t take the chance to leave now, before I am prepared for the concequences.

Edited July 22, 2014 by thaibreaker

[Pattszero]

Yeap - 'thought it was imminent. Those who were putting off their settling of accounts won't be happy campers... Still, MUCH better to get to the airport and turn yourself in than to get caught. Some are suggesting the apprehensions might be a lot of paperwork and therefore not an officer's first choice, but there might be certain "incentives" for getting "collars", too, particularly here at the outset. If you're currently in an overstay status, and rationalizing, you might be playing a dangerous game.

Don't agree with that. Anyone who is currently on an overstay and was going to travel out within the next couple of weeks probably wont now. There isnt really much incentive compared with the risk they have already been taking.

No, this announcement with no amnesty will only deter future overstayers, not make current people surrender. Shame because the Thai state could of made alot of money in those 2/3 weeks if they gave an amnesty, plus would of cleaned out illegals ! Now many will just stay.

The amnesty started three weeks ago when the proposal was announced.

People waiting till the official announcement then crying foul about no amnesty need their heads looked at.

[Pattszero]

I have a friend who had an overstay of over a year.Last week he paid the penalty and left for a neighbouring country to obtain a visa. Unfortunately he did not have the correct paperwork and is currently awaiting this paperwork. Now that the new penalties are in force, is he likely to have a problem on his return to Thailand?

bump

It depends on the mood of the immigration officer - if you are looking for reassurance you won't get it.

No one here can second-guess the immigration officer that you meet.

[Pattszero]

I agree with stephenaph: Long-term overstayers, when hearing this news, may decide to forget about ever leaving.

Long-term over-stayers may have been lax about clearing their overstay in the past because they heard of others just going to the airport, paying the maximum 20K baht fine, leaving Thailand, and then coming back in on a tourist visa.

If these new rules are effective as of today -- and it sounds like they are -- then the long-term overstayer who is well-settled here may be reluctant to leave the country or ever visit Immigration since it would result in expulsion and, for example, a five-year ban from re-entry.

If so, then random passport checks might become more common...

They're risking a lengthy stay in IDC -

On top of that - it's no fun taking a whitey every time you see a policeman or police road block.

[bangkoklasse]

Funny how people like to point out western countries blacklist over stayers too but never mention you CANNOT over stay a visa if you are married to a citizen in the west because you don't need one. You will be given residency.

Furthermore, if we are now into obeying laws, there is a little matter of international human rights law and not splitting up families. That would be a good law to start obeying.

I overstayed a year and half in France - I went to turn myself in, and they said they couldn't care less. No fines, no anything. I was brought to Paris as a guest of the mayor's office - even they didn't bother to get me the right visa to begin with, because they said it didn't matter.

I overstayed in Berlin (Schengen region) a year, and traveled all over Europe from there by airport the whole time. No fines, no anything.

I overstayed in Poland by 4 months, the officer said when I was leaving, 'What were you doing here all this time?' (4 months + 3 months automatic), and I explained I was working as an artist. Ok. No fines, no anything.

Thailand visa rules are what they are. We get it. But it's so tiresome to read that false meme here, that 'all other countries are stricter!'...it's just not true.

What a wonderful story, and that's all it is

Ha ha yes we are many people thinking the same. 3-4 stories like this in every thread....ha ha

[Pattszero]

Is this rule going to apply for children as well?

The law for children over seven is the same as adults.

[thaibreaker]

Yeap - 'thought it was imminent. Those who were putting off their settling of accounts won't be happy campers... Still, MUCH better to get to the airport and turn yourself in than to get caught. Some are suggesting the apprehensions might be a lot of paperwork and therefore not an officer's first choice, but there might be certain "incentives" for getting "collars", too, particularly here at the outset. If you're currently in an overstay status, and rationalizing, you might be playing a dangerous game.

Don't agree with that. Anyone who is currently on an overstay and was going to travel out within the next couple of weeks probably wont now. There isnt really much incentive compared with the risk they have already been taking.

No, this announcement with no amnesty will only deter future overstayers, not make current people surrender. Shame because the Thai state could of made alot of money in those 2/3 weeks if they gave an amnesty, plus would of cleaned out illegals ! Now many will just stay.

The amnesty started three weeks ago when the proposal was announced.

People waiting till the official announcement then crying foul about no amnesty need their heads looked at.

I don`t need my head looked at.

I still believe they could give people on overstay more than a couple of weeks to gather enough money for a ticket home including the overstay fine. That`s quite a bit of money for people who live overseas.

And also, do they really expect everyone to sit around by their computers every day 24/7, to get the latest immigration news, just when they are released?

They come up with something new every month.

Some slack should have been given here, not just a matter of days.

Have in mind that overstayers are just that for a reason, and one of them are surely financial. A few days to gather the funds, is just not sufficient for many of us.

Edited July 22, 2014 by thaibreaker