'Lost everything -info ?'

[steven ber]

Hello people

I've been told an amazingly depressing story, and I've no way of confirming if it's true.

I've been searching for a (farang) friend's will after he died in Chiang Mai 3 months ago, he'd lived in Thailand for close to 10 years, and I didn't know the name of his solicitor.

I'd focused the search on trying to locate the solicitor who sold his London property, and a few days ago I found the solicitor, but he wasn't holding a will and hadn't heard from my friend since the property sale.

The focus for the search now switches to where and when he first made a will, a more complex search, so I contacted everyone he ever knew to try to get some idea of when the first will was made, and heard some devastating news.(from a friend I'll call John)

On my friend's last visit to England (2 years ago), he met with John, so I asked John about that meeting, John told me my friend was

"a broken man, his Thai partner had been involved in some sort of alternate lottery,which was apparently run by some naughty people.Of course they were calling in their debts in a very heavy way, he (my friend) was cleaned out and had no capital left, just relying on his pension. "

This was such a shock to me, my friend had stayed with me for half the time he was visiting England, and never hinted at such problems, maybe he was embarrassed, maybe he didn't want to burden me with his problems, but either way, I didn't have a clue of any of this.

John has absolutely no reason to lie, nothing to gain, and has never been to Thailand, John is an elderly man who's partner is crippled with cancer, just not the kind of person to make up such a story.

My friend is dead, and I'm sure if I contacted the Thai partner he would just deny it, so I have no way to get to the truth, I visited Thailand to try to find information that would lead me to the will, and I asked the Thai partner to tell me any large payments my friend had made (so I could work out how much money was left), but he never mentioned any out of the ordinary payments.

Does the 'alternate lottery' story ring true to anyone?

What's the situation, I thought people just bought lottery tickets from someone.

I'm wondering if the alternate lottery story was made up to con my friend.

(actually, I'm wondering how I never found anything useful in my friend's home, and if anything the Thai partner told me is true, even the circumstances surrounding my friend's death.)

We're talking large sums of money here, at least £150,000, and the crazy thing is, the Thai partner is the one who would be the main beneficiary of the will.

I visited my friend's bank about a month ago, I had dates for when my friend paid money to his solicitor, and another date when he received money from his solicitor, I asked the bank to look through his statements and get the name of the solicitor and telephone them to inform them of the death, the bank refused, but when I was discussing it, they were looking at my friend's accounts, when they asked how much I thought was in the accounts, I said at least £150,000, they wouldn't give details but looked embarrassed and said there was nowhere near that amount.

I'm not related to my friend, so getting anything done has been a real struggle.

Edited July 25, 2014 by CharlieH

[ATF]

Unless you're the type of guy who doesn't have a problem pistol whipping people and putting cigarettes out on them in sensitive places. Forget it.

Sounds to me the lawyer and lover are in collusion and a Thai will is not valid in the UK so there must have been some monkey biz.

You're just wasting your time. Sorry about your friend BTW.

[farang000999]

When you find the loot what is the plan? Where is it supposed to go? I don't understand what it is that you are attempting to achieve?

[Ricardo]

Yes, there is a mafia-run 3-numbers-lottery, although IME you pay up-front when you bet.

Gambling generally is a major problem in Thailand, and if a local ran-up debts, borrowing from the mafia loan-sharks (30+ per-month interest) to buy lottery-tickets or gamble on the numbers, then they would get VERY (terminally) heavy to recover their money.

You friend's Thai partner may well have been a victim of all this, and your friend may have paid-up, to save his partner's life. His partner may well have been targeted by them, specifically because he had a farang partner, who might be good for the money.

I've known of a gang here in Chiang Mai (my wife met them, but didn't fall for their scam, which was pretending to be looking for land to buy, at full-asking-price !) who trick people into gambling, in order to get their hands on land-deeds, or credulous village-peoples' life-savings. It's not inconceivable that a village-headman might be involved too, to add pressure to the mafia's efforts, to trick uneducated local people.

I've known local mafia run rigged card-games on Koh Samui, to run-up a B50k-debt for a bar-girl, who is then totally in-hock to them for the remainder of her short life. As in the west, drugs are also used, for this. Methamphetamine (known as yabba) is widely-available/used in Thailand.

It's a nasty world, both here and also often in the west, sounds to me like the OP's friend was too embarrassed to talk about what had happened in his life out here, when back home.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Ricardo

[Tao Diver]

Is this a follow up to a post where the guy was coming to Thailand to track down his mates cash and had shut down all his bank accounts etc ?

As the OP appears to not be direct family I don't really see what he can do or why he thinks he can do anything, especially here

[mrtoad]

The money has long gone, and if the OP starts poking his nose in over here, then he might be joining his friend pretty quick.

Edited July 26, 2014 by mrtoad

[steven ber]

Is this a follow up to a post where the guy was coming to Thailand to track down his mates cash and had shut down all his bank accounts etc ?

Yes, same story, 2 month's further down the line.

[steven ber]

Yes, there is a mafia-run 3-numbers-lottery, although IME you pay up-front when you bet.

Gambling generally is a major problem in Thailand, and if a local ran-up debts, borrowing from the mafia loan-sharks (30+ per-month interest) to buy lottery-tickets or gamble on the numbers, then they would get VERY (terminally) heavy to recover their money.

You friend's Thai partner may well have been a victim of all this, and your friend may have paid-up, to save his partner's life. His partner may well have been targeted by them, specifically because he had a farang partner, who might be good for the money.

I've known of a gang here in Chiang Mai (my wife met them, but didn't fall for their scam, which was pretending to be looking for land to buy, at full-asking-price !) who trick people into gambling, in order to get their hands on land-deeds, or credulous village-peoples' life-savings. It's not inconceivable that a village-headman might be involved too, to add pressure to the mafia's efforts, to trick uneducated local people.

I've known local mafia run rigged card-games on Koh Samui, to run-up a B50k-debt for a bar-girl, who is then totally in-hock to them for the remainder of her short life. As in the west, drugs are also used, for this. Methamphetamine (known as yabba) is widely-available/used in Thailand.

It's a nasty world, both here and also often in the west, sounds to me like the OP's friend was too embarrassed to talk about what had happened in his life out here, when back home.

Thanks Ricardo, that all makes a lot of sense, especially the targeting of farang's Thai partners.

[Soutpeel]

Is this a follow up to a post where the guy was coming to Thailand to track down his mates cash and had shut down all his bank accounts etc ?

Yes, same story, 2 month's further down the line.

just to reinterate Mr Toads post #6, be careful what you start sticking your nose into seriously if your in Thailand, loan sharks, the "mafia" run gambling scams etc, typically have the cops or other high ups involved as well, and start trying to dig too deep as to what happened to your friends money, you could find yourself buried in that hole.

This is not an attempt at scaremongering, but just a bit of advice, Thailand aint like UK with some recourse to "Law and Order".... the cops are some of the biggest criminals in the country and stepping on their toes may not be too healthy for you

[steven ber]

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The money has long gone, and if the OP starts poking his nose in over here, then he might be joining his friend pretty quick.

As the OP appears to not be direct family I don't really see what he can do or why he thinks he can do anything, especially here alt=blink.png>

When you find the loot what is the plan? Where is it supposed to go? I don't understand what it is that you are attempting to achieve?

First, I'm in the UK and have no intention of coming back to Thailand, and no intention of trying to get back any monies that may have been lost to whomever.

OK, I'll very quickly explain my visit to Thailand, then explain my position at the moment.

I received a call from my friend's partner telling me my friend was dead and had been cremated, I'll call the Thai partner 'Nok', apparently Nok had been calling an old telephone number and couldn't get hold of me, Nok had been told to contact me if anything happened to my friend, Nok then constantly begged me to come to Thailand to help find the will,

I spent a week trying to find the solicitor in London, contacting all solicitors within a 2 mile radius of my friend's old house, then went to Thailand for a week.

I stayed with Nok and was allowed to search everything and everywhere, all my friend's assets were in the UK, with only 800,000 baht in a Thai account (to gain a retirement visa), I explained to Nok that I needed to find the will, and without it, all my friend's UK assets would go to 2 nieces in New Zealand, and that's not what my friend would have wanted.

All I found in Thailand was the name of the estate agent who sold the London house (useless, they wouldn't help me), email's to/from John with John's telephone number (My Mrs. called John, he didn't know my friend's solicitor, but confirmed my friend had visited the solicitor and made changes to his will), I couldn't find anything my friend would have taken to the UK (address book, UK wallet with credit cards/freedom pass, UK sim card etc., maybe a copy of the will), then I was told that in northern Thailand a suitcase is often filled with cloths and cremated with the body (to help get started in the next life), so I assumed the pockets in the suitcase hadn't been checked properly, and all the stuff I was looking for had been cremated.

I like to think of myself as a man of the world who isn't easily fooled (don't we all?), but the more I find out, the more I'm wondering, my friend had to get his passport from the suitcase, he was renewing it at the time of his death, and surely he would have used his credit card in the 2 years he was back in Thailand, if so, why would he put it back in the suitcase?

OK, fast forward to today.

Over the last 3 months I've spent an awful lot of money looking for the solicitor, it's put serious pressure on my finances and my relationship, and dominated any spare time I have, my friend was close to me, and extremely loyal, and whenever I've got in too deep with anything, he was always the one to bail me out (often literally), so my aim has always been to help him in his hour of need, and I knew he wanted his money to go to Nok.

Nok has stage 3 HIV and is very short of money for medication, so this has heaped the pressure on me to find the solicitor and will.

If all the assets are gone (through Nok's gambling), then I'll probably walk away from the whole situation, and forget about finding the solicitor, this would remove massive pressure on me, I've put everything into finding the will.

What I'm looking to gain from this thread is, to convince myself if the whole story could be true (I've no reason to not believe it), it will be hard to walk away from this, so I need to be sure I'm doing the right thing.

One more thing, Nok still has an expensive car, the small house outside Chiang Mai, the land (including extra land) and a very well stocked shop, all paid for by my friend, and they say cats always land on their feet.

Edited July 26, 2014 by steven ber

[mrtoad]

I'm sorry to hear the story, and the loss of your good friend. Sadly though, it seems that he has been given a Thai style shakedown.

[Soutpeel]

I'm sorry to hear the story, and the loss of your good friend. Sadly though, it seems that he has been given a Thai style shakedown.

I have no intention of trying to start a conspiracy theroy but some observations from what you have written

"Nok has stage 3 HIV and is very short of money for medication"

Are you 100% sure of this ? or is this what you have been told ?

Nok still has an expensive car...

so why cant she sell this expensive car for those expensive HIV meds then ?

I was told that in northern Thailand a suitcase is often filled with cloths and cremated with the body

I am no expert on practices in Northern Thailand, but dont think this is true, certainly the cremations I have been to and I have seen the coffin open, just before the deceased was cremated and definitely no suitcase

I am inclined to agree with MrToad on this one... Thai style shake down it could be

[choochoo]

is this about old white gay farang and his gay old thai man lover? ruined my dinner!

anyway anyone BrilliAnt enuff to get involved in alternate thai lotteries deserves whatever happens- btw:what is an alternate thai lottery?

Edited July 26, 2014 by choochoo

[ATF]

Steven if Francis Bacon's family couldn't get his paintings and money back you have a snowball's chance.

[thehelmsman]

is this about old white gay farang and his gay old thai man lover? ruined my dinner!

anyway anyone BrilliAnt enuff to get involved in alternate thai lotteries deserves whatever happens- btw:what is an alternate thai lottery?

What, you read this crap as you're eating.......lovely

[chickenslegs]

Have you thought about employing a private detective in Thailand to trace the will?

They probably have some experience and some useful contacts within the relevant Thai agencies.

[steven ber]

Have you thought about employing a private detective in Thailand to trace the will?

They probably have some experience and some useful contacts within the relevant Thai agencies.

I'm not the main benefactor of the will, and need to stop spending my money, I was offered the services of a solicitor who would attempt to find the will on a no-win, no-fee basis, but it would be me who signed the contract and would be liable for the fees, and I just had a feeling that I'd be left with the debt, so decided against it.

Edited July 26, 2014 by steven ber

[steven ber]

is this about old white gay farang and his gay old thai man lover? ruined my dinner!

Bookmark your reply, you can take pride in the comment when you show your children.

[steven ber]

btw:what is an alternate thai lottery?

The forum rules are quite strict, likely with good reason, and certain words are not allowed to be used together, one of those words is lottery, the other word is missing from the following

A bigot is a person who always seems to see things as ----- and white.

[steven ber]

I have no intention of trying to start a conspiracy theroy but some observations from what you have written

"Nok has stage 3 HIV and is very short of money for medication"

Are you 100% sure of this ? or is this what you have been told ?

Nok still has an expensive car...

so why cant she sell this expensive car for those expensive HIV meds then ?

I was told that in northern Thailand a suitcase is often filled with cloths and cremated with the body

I am no expert on practices in Northern Thailand, but dont think this is true, certainly the cremations I have been to and I have seen the coffin open, just before the deceased was cremated and definitely no suitcase

I am inclined to agree with MrToad on this one... Thai style shake down it could be

Fair questions Soutpeel.

HIV, yes, he's had it for a good few years now, and been on the medication for all that time, I understand the question though, and could see this kind of claim as an alternative to the 'family cow death' story.

The car, it's a specially modified car, Nok also had a stroke a few years ago and lost use of his left arm, leg and eye, he's regained some use of the leg (though not the arm or eye), but can only walk very short distances.

The suitcase, this did happen, I've got photos of the ceremony (took place in the grounds of the local temple), they build a small house and put some possessions in the house, then cremate it with the body, see attached photo.

Now, as I'm starting to doubt a lot of what Nok told me, I'm wondering if the suitcase was properly searched, but contained something Nok didn't want me seeing.

Edited July 26, 2014 by steven ber

[farang000999]

Hire Stickman Bangkok.

If he can't solve the case, nobody can.

[choochoo]

Hire Stickman Bangkok.

If he can't solve the case, nobody can.

Stickman article where he uses contributions by long timers here is his best ever. Many common sense things are printed in black and white- for me it just re-inforces what i see and conclude everyday.

for other it could save their lives- both financially and literally. Go read it you buffOnns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[NanLaew]

Hire Stickman Bangkok.

If he can't solve the case, nobody can.

Stickman article where he uses contributions by long timers here is his best ever. Many common sense things are printed in black and white- for me it just re-inforces what i see and conclude everyday.

for other it could save their lives- both financially and literally. Go read it you buffOnns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I dig it when you post right after the morning session...

[NanLaew]

For the OP; the black market lottery theory is entirely plausible. My ex-wife's best friend was heavily into funding one of them about 20 years ago. Her husband worked for THAI on an overseas posting and she had a bit more money than the average Thai so she chose to run with the big dogs. It all ended in tears when the major shareholder in the venture did a disappearing act with all the loot, hers included.

[smokie36]

Sadly it sounds like he has made a lot of mistakes...not low on the list letting his heart rule his head.

Best approach is to have money transfer monthly from the UK and make sure you don't isolate yourself from home or a quick jump from your situation particularly for the elderly.

Sad to say but true nonetheless.

[Beetlejuice]

Firstly, does the OP have any knowledge if there is an executor of the said will or whether the deceased prior made one of those DIY wills, the type that some people keep under their mattresses or hidden in a shoe box somewhere or even if he made a will at all?

If most of the deceased assets were in the UK and valued at over £5000 then eventually if nothing is being disputed or contested in the said will, the will and the death certificate stating cause of death must be submitted to the probate registry. If it was one of those DIY wills, then it is possible that all the deceased assets and liquid assets may have mysteriously vanished and if any will did exist, has been conveniently mislaid, probably never to be seen again. I believe by law if a UK citizen dies in Thailand then the death must be reported to the British embassy or if the guy died in Chiang Mai, to the British consulate in Chiang Mai so that the death is registered with the births, marriages and deaths registry in the UK. Especially if the guy had a pension or insurance policy that could be passed on to a nominated partner.

If or when the will has been submitted to the UK probate registry, then the OP can order a full copy of the will and death certificate for a fee of £10. If the will has not been submitted to probate, than the executor or a trustee holding the original will has no legal obligations to submit a copy to anyone, including beneficiaries left in the will or friends and relatives of the deceased except to the police if the deceased was believed to have died in suspicious circumstances. Also the banks or any other establishments involved with the deceased personal affairs will not grant access or give information of any of the deceased personal details to the OP or anyone else. As far as I can see, the line of investigation the OP is pursuing in trying to discover the whereabouts of a will or details of what is mentioned in the will, including what happened to the assets in bank accounts and other details, he is going to be unsuccessful.

My advice is this: make an inquiry with the British consulate in Chiang Mai and ask if they can confirm the death was registered and also what was the actual cause of death. The next stage is to check with the UK probate registry to inquire if the will has been registered with probate yet, but at this early stage I doubt it would have been. And this is about all the OP can do.

Regarding the AIDs claim by the deceased partner, I would consider that him being on the last stages as extremely suspect and would insist that the Thai partner produce a doctor`s confirmation that he is in the last stages of having full blown AIDs. It appears that the Thai partner is desperate to obtain the original up to date will otherwise all the deceased assets will automatically become as by law the property of the next of kin, which in this case are the nieces in New Zealand as the OP has mentioned, because in Thailand there is no such thing as a common law partner and unless the deceased and his so-called Thai partner were officially married, than the partner has no claims on the deceased estate without gaining access to the original will, providing he is a beneficiary of course. So it appears the partner is pushing for gaining the whereabouts of the said will and it`s contents for obvious reasons.

I am also guessing that there is more to this case than the OP is mentioning. Perhaps the OP believes he maybe a beneficiary in the will, possibly some serious problems within the Thai partner`s family, parents or siblings where they required a lot of money for something's, maybe serious problems with the law and they are a dubious lot and the deceased has possibly been manipulated into voluntary giving his funds or by deception as he was old and vulnerable. It`s the same old story and I have witnessed this countless times during my many years in Thailand.

If I were the OP I would follow one of the golden rules for those living in Thailand, even if the OP is not living in Thailand and that is; keep a low profile and don`t become involved. That lifestyle was the deceased choice and considering that the deceased did not give the OP full details of his personal affairs, close friend or not, then it is best to drop the whole thing and let nature take it`s course.

Whatever further actions the OP decides to take, he does so at his own risk and discretion and of course at his own expense that will probably lead to nowhere.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Beetlejuice

[AYJAYDEE]

if the thai partner is the beneficiary, why do you care?

[Thaiberius]

My sympathies about your friend.

There are numerous Thai money making ponzi, betting, lottery type schemes they get involved in. To the average farang they sound crazy but to a Thai whose head is full of merit and luck nonsense they sound very attractive. I have a Thai friend living in the UK who lost £50k on some scheme where 10 of them got together and leant each other money in a ponzi type scheme. It all ended in tears.

I doubt you will ever get to the bottom of what really happened with your friend as when the stakes get higher the nastier the people you will encounter. Loyalties, promises, trust and friendships have different meanings in Thailand.

[steven ber]

if the thai partner is the beneficiary, why do you care?

As I said earlier, my friend was the true kind, whenever I got into some kind of trouble (way too often), he was there for me, but he was the type who never needed help, this was my first chance to do something for him, and I believed he wanted his assets to go to the Thai partner.

A story is unfolding that throws a different light on many things, but I had no idea of this till this week.

[steven ber]

I doubt you will ever get to the bottom of what really happened with your friend

Yes, I agree.

The strange thing is, I don't think I want to know what really happened, I'm pretty much convinced that something did happen, and my friend was 'persuaded' to part with his assets, and it was because of something the Thai partner did.

The details are pretty irrelevant, the bottom line is, the money's gone, so what's the point of looking for the will, I felt under immense pressure to find the will as I knew the medication cost were high, and I felt the Thai partner's life was in my hands, so if it's the Thai partner's fault the money's gone, then there's nothing left to feel guilty about.

I wish it was that easy though.