When Nomads becomes Static are they still Nomadic?

[stevenl]

But since your main purpose here seems to be to disagree with whatever some official comes up with, really with all official rules, there really is no point.

Is it really so much to expect legal status to be clear, precise, and have logical boundaries and standards ?? I dont think it is and case law should be available to help assist in the evolution of such boundaries.

Again: there are, but you just don't like them.

[LivinLOS]

But since your main purpose here seems to be to disagree with whatever some official comes up with, really with all official rules, there really is no point.

Is it really so much to expect legal status to be clear, precise, and have logical boundaries and standards ?? I dont think it is and case law should be available to help assist in the evolution of such boundaries.

Again: there are, but you just don't like them.

No they are not.. Thailand does not adhere to case law, so any previous legal judgment is not a constraining guide to further legal cases (feudal hangover there poo yai can always be let off of a catch all law for little people). Secondly the law is far from clear.. work is "to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits" literally and legally that criminalizes everything except I guess sleeping. Which is ridiculous, so now it becomes an interpretation issue.

So as its an interpretation issue.. Is uploading a you tube video working ?? Is posting to a blog ??

Thats far from clear, precise, and with logical boundaries and standards.

[paddyjenkins]

what defines their job descriptions? What is the controlling body or circumstances (yes, contradiction in terms) that would allow the department of labor to consider issuing work permits for only them and not the next person who writes IT Nomad on their application?

There isnt one.. The authorities could, if they so wished, adapt the media visa to cover online media, hence blog publishing etc would fall under this remit.

There then comes the intense difficulty in verifying incomes and in many cases maintaining min wage etc.

Currently it seems clear the authorities dont wish to do this. Which is entirely their right. However when the definitions of work are so vague, huge grey areas appear, and you can hardly blame the people caught up without a visa class route to them, for staying in the grey area the current rules create.

LOS, agree with your points, very similar to mine. The internet is a huge grey area with no global regulations and a nightmare for any government to issue work permits, or rather regulate the issue of those permits where the definition of work is so general.

I know a lot of people living in Thailand, with the correct visas to satisfy immigration, however the majority of them are still in communication with businesses outside the country to one degree or another and are in effect ignoring the labour laws by doing so.

Taking interpretation to the limit, even people on this forum, by submitting advice and comments and improving the rating of the site could be defined as working.

I think it's time get serious, because this post and other are just total rubbish.

Work is the exchange of payment for labour or services on a mutually agreed basis. It's isn't any kind of human activity at all....breathing, eating, going to the toilet, chatting in a bar with friends, chatting in a bar with strangers....or posting a comment online to a forum to a bunch of strangers. That isn't work, it isn't business, it doesn't require any special visa. So stop talking so much rubbish.

Tell it to the legal eagle who drew up the Thai legislation.. Tell it to the guy arrested for doing up his own sailboat.. Tell it to the guy arrested and detained for painting his own house..

No one will answer my simple question.. Is posting to a website or blog "work" ???

I did answer your question. The answer is NO, obviously not.

Regarding the house and the boat I'd like to know the details, could be more to it. Do you have links?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[paddyjenkins]

Ooops....I think I'm wrong. I just looked up the definition of work in Thailand....it's anything involving the exertion of effort or use of knowledge....not necessarily in exchange for money or other benefits...

So it's anything at all....absolutely anything....could that include posting online....yes, why not, depends...

So, this is another example of Thainess I hadn't encountered....ultra stupid and ultra vague, capturing just about any human activity. All those people who come to Thailand for a quick business meeting, to attend a conference or whatever should choose a more sensible country, becAuse in theory they could be arrested according to the law.

Any person coming to build a website, write, or just anything, could be arrested. I guess this law is just about the dumbest and nastiest piece of legislation I've come across in a while.

But there it is...so is posting online a form of work....well it could be, depends on whether some nasty little immigration officer decided he wanted to victimize or extort money from a foreigner...totally up to them....

So for all but the most typical tourist in shorts and sandals who wants to go around and gape at temples and in crocodile farms or lie passively on a beach....

Could shopping even be a form of work...yes....if the shopper exerts effort the. Even shopping could be work....

Could going to the toilet and wiping yourself....yes....that could be work too...

Once again, what can I say....Thainess.

Why do other countries even consider allowing Thai people to work or conduct a business in their countries when the laws are so asymmetrically nasty and small minded....totally beats me because until foreign countries tell Thailand to either grow up or go screw themselves it will never change.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[anon676545345]

what defines their job descriptions? What is the controlling body or circumstances (yes, contradiction in terms) that would allow the department of labor to consider issuing work permits for only them and not the next person who writes IT Nomad on their application?

There isnt one.. The authorities could, if they so wished, adapt the media visa to cover online media, hence blog publishing etc would fall under this remit.

There then comes the intense difficulty in verifying incomes and in many cases maintaining min wage etc.

Currently it seems clear the authorities dont wish to do this. Which is entirely their right. However when the definitions of work are so vague, huge grey areas appear, and you can hardly blame the people caught up without a visa class route to them, for staying in the grey area the current rules create.

LOS, agree with your points, very similar to mine. The internet is a huge grey area with no global regulations and a nightmare for any government to issue work permits, or rather regulate the issue of those permits where the definition of work is so general.

I know a lot of people living in Thailand, with the correct visas to satisfy immigration, however the majority of them are still in communication with businesses outside the country to one degree or another and are in effect ignoring the labour laws by doing so.

Taking interpretation to the limit, even people on this forum, by submitting advice and comments and improving the rating of the site could be defined as working.

I think it's time get serious, because this post and other are just total rubbish.

Work is the exchange of payment for labour or services on a mutually agreed basis. It's isn't any kind of human activity at all....breathing, eating, going to the toilet, chatting in a bar with friends, chatting in a bar with strangers....or posting a comment online to a forum to a bunch of strangers. That isn't work, it isn't business, it doesn't require any special visa. So stop talking so much rubbish.

Tell it to the legal eagle who drew up the Thai legislation.. Tell it to the guy arrested for doing up his own sailboat.. Tell it to the guy arrested and detained for painting his own house..

No one will answer my simple question.. Is posting to a website or blog "work" ???

I did answer your question. The answer is NO, obviously not.

Regarding the house and the boat I'd like to know the details, could be more to it. Do you have links?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

When I got my ED visa in Phnom Phen I was questioned due to the fact that I have many tourist visa's in my passport and they were concerned that I was working illegally in Thailand. I explained that I work online and have no business dealings in Thailand, I was asked to show proof so I printed out statements and they wanted to see my UK bank statements. The immigration officer seemed happy with my explanation and I was given a visa, so personally I don't see how I'm flouting any laws by working online.

[LivinLOS]

No one will answer my simple question.. Is posting to a website or blog "work" ???

I did answer your question. The answer is NO, obviously not.

Regarding the house and the boat I'd like to know the details, could be more to it. Do you have links?

Well thats all many digital nomads are doing.. posting to a blog or uploading vlogs..

SteveNL disagreed with you.. He says to post to a blog is work..

Funny how clear this law is isnt it ??

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/669227-phuket-immigration-cracks-down-on-yachting-marine-industry/

The news follows the arrests of a German man and a Swiss man who were caught building their own boats on their own properties in Chalong late yesterday afternoon.

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/phuket-expat-tried-pick-tourist-mate-sparked-taxi-standoff-18918/

Last week the Tourist police came to my place saw me painting my house even though I have a work permit and wanted me to pay them 20,000B they got 5,000B, my wife paid them, I did not know until they had left, they hit the Burmese camp across the road which has 70 people and they had to pay 2000B, I thought their job was to help foreigners not shack them down for money.

[LivinLOS]

Ooops....I think I'm wrong. I just looked up the definition of work in Thailand....it's anything involving the exertion of effort or use of knowledge....not necessarily in exchange for money or other benefits...

So it's anything at all....absolutely anything....could that include posting online....yes, why not, depends...

So, this is another example of Thainess I hadn't encountered....ultra stupid and ultra vague, capturing just about any human activity. All those people who come to Thailand for a quick business meeting, to attend a conference or whatever should choose a more sensible country, becAuse in theory they could be arrested according to the law.

Finally getting through...

The law as written criminalizes all activity, physical or mental (it also includes the word its defining in the definition.. Logic not a strong suit I guess).

So you are left entirely to the whims of enforcement.. What someone in authority chooses to think the law is.

[LivinLOS]

When I got my ED visa in Phnom Phen I was questioned due to the fact that I have many tourist visa's in my passport and they were concerned that I was working illegally in Thailand. I explained that I work online and have no business dealings in Thailand, I was asked to show proof so I printed out statements and they wanted to see my UK bank statements. The immigration officer seemed happy with my explanation and I was given a visa, so personally I don't see how I'm flouting any laws by working online.

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1175

“Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa.

They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.

Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment.

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration

“Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens.

For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live.

We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action.

Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information.” Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:56:43 PM Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment - See more at: http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1175#sthash.QonDEWhL.dpuf

So you see now.. One person ignoring the violation doesnt make it legal.. Thats the "I rode past a policeman with no helmet on.. Therefore riding without a helmet is legal" logical fallacy.

Firstly you stated on the visa application that you would not be working in any capacity.. Then you have the wrong visa.. Then you have no work permit..

Edited July 28, 2014 by LivinLOS

[stevenl]

No one will answer my simple question.. Is posting to a website or blog "work" ???

I did answer your question. The answer is NO, obviously not.

Regarding the house and the boat I'd like to know the details, could be more to it. Do you have links?

Well thats all many digital nomads are doing.. posting to a blog or uploading vlogs..

SteveNL disagreed with you.. He says to post to a blog is work..

Funny how clear this law is isnt it ??

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/669227-phuket-immigration-cracks-down-on-yachting-marine-industry/

The news follows the arrests of a German man and a Swiss man who were caught building their own boats on their own properties in Chalong late yesterday afternoon.

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/phuket-expat-tried-pick-tourist-mate-sparked-taxi-standoff-18918/

Last week the Tourist police came to my place saw me painting my house even though I have a work permit and wanted me to pay them 20,000B they got 5,000B, my wife paid them, I did not know until they had left, they hit the Burmese camp across the road which has 70 people and they had to pay 2000B, I thought their job was to help foreigners not shack them down for money.

Don't take 2 different examples and treat them as one.

For your info: both boat builders were doing so commercially.

[DrTuner]

Seems to be yet another thread about working online. Thailand could facilitate this very easily. Remove the 4 Thais & Office rule for the first work permit in a company but keep it in place for the next ones. Keep the capital requirements and Thai majority rules, those are easy enough to comply with. Done. I'll have to check if it's a law or a ministerial regulation or just general guidelines drawn in the water. But I suspect it wouldn't take much to change it.

[Pattszero]

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If you can leave the country and not worry about the financial loss of leaving stuff behind you're a nomad. If you haven't put roots down by buying houses or businesses, you're a nomad. People exist in Thailand for years with a nomadic attitude, and they tend to be the happiest - they're here because they want to be here - not because they are trapped.

It doesn't matter what visa you're on - retirement/work/whatever - as long as you can leave in a heart-beat without worrying about what you leave behind - you are a nomad.

Non-nomads own houses/condos/businesses - or are tied to families. Some non-nomads can't afford the price of a flight home - non-nomads are stuck, they have to disentangle themselves to get out of the country. I'd guess that ninety-odd percent of long-stayers in Thailand take a nomadic attitude to the country. Even of they have been here for years, they will never allow themselves to be trapped in Thailand. I'd place a bet that ninety-odd percent of long=stayers in Thailand could leave within twenty-four hours and leave nothing of consequence behind.

So when do you stop being a nomad? when you put down roots that have to be ripped out to allow you to leave.

That applies to everyone. irrespective of age or length of time in the country.

"If you can leave the country and not worry about the financial loss of leaving stuff behind you're a nomad. If you haven't put roots down by buying houses or businesses, you're a nomad."

I would disagree. I meet all your criteria above, yet wouldn't consider myself a nomad. I have made sacrifices, rather adjustments, to remain in this country. I still have the freedom to travel anywhere I want, my wife would travel with me. To lose a car and a job would also be acceptable, but why would I want to? That to me is not being nomadic.

As with the OP, the majority of people chasing the criteria for "IT nomads" are in my opinion looking for long stay options to remain in Thailand, going against the description of their occupation. Also, the majority are not willing to make changes to accommodate the laws of the country, they want their cake and to eat it as well.

Nomadic is continually on the move.

I believe you work out of the county and you are constantly on the move?

I went to UK at the beginning of last year. First time out of the country (Thailand) in 14 years.

It's a fair achievement to have lived in Thailand and not put down any roots - you are a nomad and you just don't realize it.

On the dark days when things looked like they were going all wrong and everyone has them, whether in there personal life or watching the political developments in this county - did you ever say to yourself?

"I can get out quickly, and leave nothing of consequence behind?"

I bet you did - and I bet there's many a day you are secretly proud of the fact that you can go to the airport and leave, and never look over your shoulder.

That's what nomad's do - you are a nomad.

[Soutpeel]

Allow a new kind of company formation which can be be founded by a foreigner and need only 1 person which will only grant to one work permit. This company will only be allowed to receive income from outside of Thailand.

There already is something like this, its called a representative office...

[Soutpeel]

Earlier it was stated as tho there are no areas of the work permit law which are not clear in relation to online activity..

OK I am going to challange this statement...

Please show me a country which does have clear laws/work permit laws pertaining to online activity related to people who claim "residency" in a country and are neither citizens or legal permanent residents of that country ?

[chrisinth]

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"If you can leave the country and not worry about the financial loss of leaving stuff behind you're a nomad. If you haven't put roots down by buying houses or businesses, you're a nomad."

I would disagree. I meet all your criteria above, yet wouldn't consider myself a nomad. I have made sacrifices, rather adjustments, to remain in this country. I still have the freedom to travel anywhere I want, my wife would travel with me. To lose a car and a job would also be acceptable, but why would I want to? That to me is not being nomadic.

As with the OP, the majority of people chasing the criteria for "IT nomads" are in my opinion looking for long stay options to remain in Thailand, going against the description of their occupation. Also, the majority are not willing to make changes to accommodate the laws of the country, they want their cake and to eat it as well.

Nomadic is continually on the move.

I believe you work out of the county and you are constantly on the move?

I went to UK at the beginning of last year. First time out of the country (Thailand) in 14 years.

It's a fair achievement to have lived in Thailand and not put down any roots - you are a nomad and you just don't realize it.

On the dark days when things looked like they were going all wrong and everyone has them, whether in there personal life or watching the political developments in this county - did you ever say to yourself?

"I can get out quickly, and leave nothing of consequence behind?"

I bet you did - and I bet there's many a day you are secretly proud of the fact that you can go to the airport and leave, and never look over your shoulder.

That's what nomad's do - you are a nomad.

Sorry, we agree to disagree. I consider that I have put roots down here, I have a job, I am married and I have lived here full time, legally, for the last 17 years. Yet I still meet your criteria to be classed as a nomad?

Anyway, we are drifting slightly off topic with definitions. The purpose of the thread was to look at the plight of the "digital travelers " from the viewpoint of the Thai authorities, why they should be treated differently to normal workers, what could be changed to accommodate them and what they would need to do from their side to allow them to stay long term.

BTW, thanks for all the input, both positive and negative. It is a subject of interest to me, where I certainly understand the new "cloud" technology, but cannot understand the argument that a self proclaimed nomad should be treated differently due to the working life they have chosen without some sort of commitment to appease the government of the country they wish to remain in long term instead of waiting for said government to amend policies to accommodate them.

[DrTuner]

Allow a new kind of company formation which can be be founded by a foreigner and need only 1 person which will only grant to one work permit. This company will only be allowed to receive income from outside of Thailand.

There already is something like this, its called a representative office...

If I remember correctly, you'll need to have statements from the "Mother" company showing earlier activity and bring a certain amount of $$$ to Thailand within a few years, after which you'll need to incorporate. It's good for a temporary solution for existing foreign companies wishing to enter Thailand. Not practical for freelancers.

[LivinLOS]

Earlier it was stated as tho there are no areas of the work permit law which are not clear in relation to online activity..

OK I am going to challange this statement...

Please show me a country which does have clear laws/work permit laws pertaining to online activity related to people who claim "residency" in a country and are neither citizens or legal permanent residents of that country ?

Having worked in precisely this field all around Europe, Employing 1000 men a year in cross border employment throughout the EU, with offices in 5 countries, I can say the laws were very precise..

First you had the 183 day dual taxation agreement which applied to guest workers. Secondly after that source of income was a determining factor, if the person had multiple clients or a single client (even self employed that made them employees), and lastly the incorporation structure of the main contractor or employer, did the have a permanent establishment in the country where the wages or benefit were paid. Depending on the conditions of these aspects would depend on where thier income would be taxable and under which tax tables and social security systems of the different nations would apply. Special dispensation were given to long distance lorry drivers, surgeons performing specialist surgery, and touring groups such as performing arts, a few other clearly defined specialist exceptions like that.. etc.

Most of this law has its basis in the 1992 Maastrict treaty.. Its well codified, easy enough for even a non legal layperson to understand, and most of all very well defined.

As this was what made me my first real money.. I guess my mind is attuned to looking for the detailed provision in law, not these crazy catch alls made here.

Edited July 28, 2014 by LivinLOS

[paddyjenkins]

For people who post to blogs, write novels or even tinker with their websites in Thailand, it seems to me the law is vague enough to represent a theoretical risk that even if they make no money from their activity, compete with no thai, do no business at all, certainly do no business in Thailand and are neither employed by any company nor even self employed.

It would be considered absurd in international eyes if anyone was accused of being an illegal worker by doing the above or similar, but theoretically it looks to me to be a possibility, albeit a low probability one. Nobody would say they are working accord to Thai law, nor that they aren't. That's the problem. Even more absurd is it would be impossible to obtain a work permit or business visa for the above too. Legally they are in total limbo, exposed to the insane interpretation of some random officer of the law but unable to do anything to protect themselves apart from not being in Thailand.

If a blogger or writer was accused of exerting effort and using knowledge, how could this accusation be defended, any more so that one could claim to have not been breathing air?

On the other hand I think people who build websites or operate online businesses, say, for a commercial venture, or offer their services online, receive payment and then do the work in Thailand are in a more clear cut position....that looks and smells like work to me, at least theoretically as there is definable work, a customer and a payment.

And as for people painting houses and fixing up boats, it sound like that was being done for commercial purposes, and anyway is a highly visible activity. And so it doesn't really shock me to hear there were somehow caught out and either made to face the law or extorted by a corrupt officer of the law.

My guess is the bloggers and writers are very unlikely to ever face any kind of action or attention, but as I said, the wording of the definition of work according to Thailand makes it a possibility, even if it's a low probability one.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[JLCrab]

In a recent US Supreme Court decision -- where the main appellant was a citizen of Thailand -- the Court spent roughly 10 pages of the 37 page majority opinion interpreting the phrase "made lawfully under this title" as it applies to US Copyright Law.

[LivinLOS]

For people who post to blogs, write novels or even tinker with their websites in Thailand, it seems to me the law is vague enough to represent a theoretical risk that even if they make no money from their activity, compete with no thai, do no business at all, certainly do no business in Thailand and are neither employed by any company nor even self employed.

It would be considered absurd in international eyes if anyone was accused of being an illegal worker by doing the above or similar, but theoretically it looks to me to be a possibility, albeit a low probability one. Nobody would say they are working accord to Thai law, nor that they aren't. That's the problem. Even more absurd is it would be impossible to obtain a work permit or business visa for the above too. Legally they are in total limbo, exposed to the insane interpretation of some random officer of the law but unable to do anything to protect themselves apart from not being in Thailand.

If a blogger or writer was accused of exerting effort and using knowledge, how could this accusation be defended, any more so that one could claim to have not been breathing air?

Thats what I have been trying to point out.. Its not simple and its not clear cut.. There is plenty of grey area here..

I have been very vocal in telling people who are remote workers, to sort out thier position and legalize..

As you say and I agree..

On the other hand I think people who build websites or operate online businesses, say, for a commercial venture, or offer their services online, receive payment and then do the work in Thailand are in a more clear cut position....that looks and smells like work to me, at least theoretically as there is definable work, a customer and a payment.

And as for people painting houses and fixing up boats, it sound like that was being done for commercial purposes, and anyway is a highly visible activity. And so it doesn't really shock me to hear there were somehow caught out and either made to face the law or extorted by a corrupt officer of the law.

My guess is the bloggers and writers are very unlikely to ever face any kind of action or attention, but as I said, the wording of the definition of work according to Thailand makes it a possibility, even if it's a low probability one.

Theres plenty of remote workers, programmers, copy writers, etc etc etc.. Who are doing an activity purely for commercial gain, they are to all intents and purposes working, and simply doing so via the internet and a laptop. Yes I think the rules are a little archaic and behind the times, and yes I personally think that as they have no Thai clients, dont take a Thai job, and seem to have limited downsides, it would be smarter to have a carrot along with the stick as a way of gaining tax revenue and a vibrant startup economy to Thailand.. But I dont argue these people are not working and should do thier best to get within the laws (wwww.iglu.in.th/work for example).

But creating content, taking photographs, making vlogs, and other artistic endeavor.. Its done for the process of creating.. Its done to showcase creativity and artwork skills.. This isnt quite so clear. And these days who under 30 doesnt have a youtube channel, an instagram account, and multiple publishing systems ?? We have become a narcissistic society of publishers.. The 'selfie' or the dinner shot.. I get the over 50 retirees still struggling with their nokia probably still think phones are for calls, but we all carry handheld cameras and editing suites these days.. And you wait how google glass changes everything !!

I have a buddy who makes ride videos.. Thai roads and tours.. He is doing it purely for fun.. Well he turned on youtube adds and with only a few videos up, the clicks start coming in.. Might only be a 100 bucks in a month but its not done for money, its done for fun.. What if in a year, when he has more its making 1000 bucks a month.. I mean its still a fraction on the ducati he bought or the many gopros and editing gear hes bought.. But wheres the line ?? If Thailand said OK pay us 30% of the revenue and heres a visa, whose to say he cant be highly beneficial to the Thai tourist exposure..

[Soutpeel]

Earlier it was stated as tho there are no areas of the work permit law which are not clear in relation to online activity..

OK I am going to challange this statement...

Please show me a country which does have clear laws/work permit laws pertaining to online activity related to people who claim "residency" in a country and are neither citizens or legal permanent residents of that country ?

Having worked in precisely this field all around Europe, Employing 1000 men a year in cross border employment throughout the EU, with offices in 5 countries, I can say the laws were very precise..

First you had the 183 day dual taxation agreement which applied to guest workers. Secondly after that source of income was a determining factor, if the person had multiple clients or a single client (even self employed that made them employees), and lastly the incorporation structure of the main contractor or employer, did the have a permanent establishment in the country where the wages or benefit were paid. Depending on the conditions of these aspects would depend on where thier income would be taxable and under which tax tables and social security systems of the different nations would apply. Special dispensation were given to long distance lorry drivers, surgeons performing specialist surgery, and touring groups such as performing arts, a few other clearly defined specialist exceptions like that.. etc.

Most of this law has its basis in the 1992 Maastrict treaty.. Its well codified, easy enough for even a non legal layperson to understand, and most of all very well defined.

As this was what made me my first real money.. I guess my mind is attuned to looking for the detailed provision in law, not these crazy catch alls made here.

But one suspects in your case all where "EU "citizens" ?

[LivinLOS]

Earlier it was stated as tho there are no areas of the work permit law which are not clear in relation to online activity..

OK I am going to challange this statement...

Please show me a country which does have clear laws/work permit laws pertaining to online activity related to people who claim "residency" in a country and are neither citizens or legal permanent residents of that country ?

Having worked in precisely this field all around Europe, Employing 1000 men a year in cross border employment throughout the EU, with offices in 5 countries, I can say the laws were very precise..

First you had the 183 day dual taxation agreement which applied to guest workers. Secondly after that source of income was a determining factor, if the person had multiple clients or a single client (even self employed that made them employees), and lastly the incorporation structure of the main contractor or employer, did the have a permanent establishment in the country where the wages or benefit were paid. Depending on the conditions of these aspects would depend on where thier income would be taxable and under which tax tables and social security systems of the different nations would apply. Special dispensation were given to long distance lorry drivers, surgeons performing specialist surgery, and touring groups such as performing arts, a few other clearly defined specialist exceptions like that.. etc.

Most of this law has its basis in the 1992 Maastrict treaty.. Its well codified, easy enough for even a non legal layperson to understand, and most of all very well defined.

As this was what made me my first real money.. I guess my mind is attuned to looking for the detailed provision in law, not these crazy catch alls made here.

But one suspects in your case all where "EU "citizens" ?

In my company yes.. I took the 'auf viedesien pet' Anglo construction workers to mainland European work..

However the same rules would apply for the definitions of work, and the clarity of where taxation would be paid (depending on dual taxation agreements with the home country) for non EU nationals also.

You said "show me a country" and I replied from my own personal experience the entire EU is very clear, its written in mostly plain english, legally defined with rules and clauses, exceptions and examples.. Its precisely what I specialized in, built large pan European companies doing, and it is not some unintelligible grey area. Your premise is in this case incorrect.

[Soutpeel]

Allow a new kind of company formation which can be be founded by a foreigner and need only 1 person which will only grant to one work permit. This company will only be allowed to receive income from outside of Thailand.

There already is something like this, its called a representative office...

If I remember correctly, you'll need to have statements from the "Mother" company showing earlier activity and bring a certain amount of $$$ to Thailand within a few years, after which you'll need to incorporate. It's good for a temporary solution for existing foreign companies wishing to enter Thailand. Not practical for freelancers.

If I remember, large numbers of "Freelancers" on TV claim to have "mother" shelf companies set up in places like HK, Singapore, Belieze, Timbucktoo, they are getting paid to by their clients ?

In most cases "freelancer's" are not "freelancers" at all, they are routing their fee's/incomes through "limited shelf companies" they own to stave off personal income tax or excessive taxes, therefore they are not Freelancers at all, they are directors of companies they own, and taking money out a Ltd company in "expenses"

Certainly in the case of the UK, a lot of client companies will not pay an individual unless the fee's or monies owed are paid to a limited company, due to possible tax issues from HM revenue service.

A representative officer in Thailand, is not required to incorperate after a certain time period, but the business is not allowed to be operated beyond a 5 year "existance" and yes you need to repatriate THB 5.0 million into Thailand over a predefined period.

Also note I was repsonding to the comment

"Allow a new kind of company formation which can be be founded by a foreigner and need only 1 person which will only grant to one work permit. This company will only be allowed to receive income from outside of Thailand"

A representative office does all that was stated as a "new kind of company formation" that new kind of company is already in existance, no comment on the requirements one had to comply with to do it....

I suspect "freelancer's" dont want go the representative office route, simply because they cant afford it, but the poster cannot suggest there is no vehicle in place which forefill what he stated, there is already

[LivinLOS]

If I remember, large numbers of "Freelancers" on TV claim to have "mother" shelf companies set up in places like HK, Singapore, Belieze, Timbucktoo, they are getting paid to by their clients ?

In most cases "freelancer's" are not "freelancers" at all, they are routing their fee's/incomes through "limited shelf companies" they own to stave off personal income tax or excessive taxes, therefore they are not Freelancers at all, they are directors of companies they own, and taking money out a Ltd company in "expenses"

I am of the feeling, that if they are resident working online in this sense (online contractors, with clients, performing work and tasks for the client) they should get a Thai work permit and pay Thai taxes, if necessary via an umbrella company system.. There is pretty much no other definition that fits this other than work and the law is in this case clear.. Difficult perhaps, for the tax losses for the worker but such is life the law is clear.. Even though this is exactly what so many legit tourists do without any issues right now. Deal with an hour a days work email and continue with their vacation..

Its the kind of people who are in the limbo of being content creators, without clients but rather making revenue off hobbys and passion projects who I feel are unfairly punished by being caught up in this law. Artists create art for the purpose of creating it, many never find great commercial success, yet that doesnt make them a drain, or a negative, or a downside for Thailand for trying.

As I tried to explain, these days everyone is a publisher, everyone has an instagram, everyone has a youtube account.. is it someones fault if they are popular ?? Is it someone fault if they have many followers.. where is the line between someone uploading a grainy poorly lit shot of their dinner.. And the person whose food or street photo blog has 200,000 followers ?? Does some celebutante waste of air like Kim Kardasian coming to Thailand taking photos of her Krabi trip need a work permit ?? Because the monetization from that would outdo 50 average digital nomads best projects.. No one wants the bad PR of hassling a celeb.. But they will hassle the travel blogger doing the same thing for a fraction of the coverage.

Edited July 28, 2014 by LivinLOS

[Soutpeel]

In my company yes.. I took the 'auf viedesien pet' Anglo construction workers to mainland European work..

However the same rules would apply for the definitions of work, and the clarity of where taxation would be paid (depending on dual taxation agreements with the home country) for non EU nationals also.

You said "show me a country" and I replied from my own personal experience the entire EU is very clear, its written in mostly plain english, legally defined with rules and clauses, exceptions and examples.. Its precisely what I specialized in, built large pan European companies doing, and it is not some unintelligible grey area. Your premise is in this case incorrect.

You quoted my question out of context, and left out another bit . ...but i am sure you knew that didnt you ?

Ok show me how these very clearly written laws which apply to a say a Thai tourist arriving in "Europe" on a tourist visa, with express purpose of establishing " full time residence" and operating a "freelance or on-line business" to finance his stay in Europe ?.. where are those clear laws, rules, and clauses then ?

If a Thai wanted to live in Europe full time operating "freelance" or running an online business what would he have to do to become legal ?...my guess The Thai national would have have investment and/or form a company and jump through significant hurdles to get some form of "residence" staus Yes ?

if I am wrong could direct me to the "EU" visa class which allow this Thai person to work legally running his "freelance/on line business, per the example given above ?

Edited July 28, 2014 by Soutpeel

[LivinLOS]

In my company yes.. I took the 'auf viedesien pet' Anglo construction workers to mainland European work..

However the same rules would apply for the definitions of work, and the clarity of where taxation would be paid (depending on dual taxation agreements with the home country) for non EU nationals also.

You said "show me a country" and I replied from my own personal experience the entire EU is very clear, its written in mostly plain english, legally defined with rules and clauses, exceptions and examples.. Its precisely what I specialized in, built large pan European companies doing, and it is not some unintelligible grey area. Your premise is in this case incorrect.

You quoted my question out of context, and left out another bit . ...but i am sure you knew that didnt you ?

Ok show me how these very clearly written laws which apply to a say a Thai tourist arriving in "Europe" on a tourist visa, with express purpose of establishing " full time residence" and operating a "freelance or on-line business" to finance his stay in Europe ?.. where are those clear laws, rules, and clauses then ?

If a Thai wanted to live in Europe full time operating "freelance" or running an online business what would he have to do to become legal ?...my guess The Thai national would have have investment and/or form a company and jump through significant hurdles to get some form of "residence" staus Yes ?

If you mean.. If someone wanted to try to evade the taxes.. work illegally.. Hide from the system.. And break the clear laws.. Then yes they could, and in general no one would bother them..

But they laws are not vague, grey, catch alls.. The laws are clear.. Breaking the law is always an option, you may get caught, you may find enforcement doesnt care.. But you rarely have the issue of not clearly knowing the law.

Also, if someone is legally inside the EU without a work prohibited visa status.. all this work permits, labor office, company formation, VAT accounts, local hire staff, etc.. is non existent.. Simply work with clients outside the country, earn, pay your income taxes and get on with making money..

It really is quite simple.. Even if you wish to make it seem complex.

[Soutpeel]

Even though this is exactly what so many legit tourists do without any issues right now. Deal with an hour a days work email and continue with their vacation..

Of course, but we have to accept legit tourists are not claiming "residency" in Thailand are they ?, they are doing their 3 weeks or so in the sun and going home again

[Soutpeel]

Also, if someone is legally inside the EU without a work prohibited visa status.. all this work permits, labor office, company formation, VAT accounts, local hire staff, etc.. is non existent.. Simply work with clients outside the country, earn, pay your income taxes and get on with making money..

It really is quite simple.. Even if you wish to make it seem complex.

Not making complex at all.... it was a simple question, direct me to a EU tourist/visitors or work visa obtained off thier own bat, without an employers sponsorship that would allow a Thai national to operate a on line for free lance business legally in Europe ?

Can tourists work legally in Europe ?... one suspects with a few exceptions I can think of, they cant.

The problem with this whole Thai on liner/freelancer WP/visa question is that there are two very distinct and very different issues, its not just creating an "online visa" which would require changes in the immigration law, there is also the business/companies law and the taxation law which need changing as well

A lot of posters are looking at this question too simplisitically by say we want a visa to work on line and be given a WP and we will give a bit of tax for your trouble.... its not that simple.

[Timwin]

Can tourists work legally in Europe ?... one suspects with a few exceptions I can think of, they cant.

Thousands of Thais work tax free every summer in Scandinavian countries picking berries in forests and that is perfectly legal. Many have bought houses and cars with that money.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Timwin

[Soutpeel]

Can tourists work legally in Europe ?... one suspects with a few exceptions I can think of, they cant.

Thousands of Thais work tax free every summer in Scandinavian countries picking berries in forests and that is perfectly legal. Many have bought houses and cars with that money.

Sponsored by who ?, a Scandanavian company by any chance ?.... and they will not be in Europe on a tourist visa, but work visa/permit of some description

internesting comparison guess what Thailand requires ?... sponsorship by Thai company to get a WP...

[Timwin]

Not making complex at all.... it was a simple question, direct me to a EU tourist/visitors or work visa obtained off thier own bat, without an employers sponsorship that would allow a Thai national to operate a on line for free lance business legally in Europe ?

If for example a Chinese is accepted to an European university, he or she can setup business the next day while studying in many cases FOR FREE in the university. That is one way.

Another way is special permits for experts like IT people. If you earn minimum of 3000 euros per month, you can get a temporary permission to stay in EU. So a Thai onliner would quite easily get a permission to stay if earning that sum and after 5 years it will be turned into permanent residence permit.

Another way: A lot of Asian businessmen just setup a business and import Asian people to work for them.