Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[Arkady]

<<Same goes for me. I have heard it often and my lawyer mentioned it but I've never heard a clear explanation of why or how. I wonder if it means easier to get a work permit because you only have to deal with the Labour Dept and not immigration where in the case of a B extension, immigration can demand company accounts, photo's of the office etc etc.>>

That is what my friend tells me. He says that it is easier because you only have to deal with the Labor Dept and not Immigration. Apparently, Immigration has the onerous rules about 4 Thai employees, etc. My question is whether really the Immigration Dept is out of the picture even if you only have the "application pending" status.

It is definitely easier for a PR to get a WP. As you point out, you only have to deal with the Dept of Employment at the Labour Ministry which eliminates one complete layer of aggravation and probably the most difficult one. Your company doesn't need any Thai employees at all and there is very little scrutiny of the company, apart from the basic docs such as company affidavit, certificate of incorporation etc. The DoE doesn't not care whether the company is profitable or not. I once asked one of the officers at the DoE and she said that, frankly, will always approve applications for WPs from PRs that pass the most basic legal requirements because PRs are already "khon pai nai" (interior persons) and it is assumed they have to be allowed to earn a living. The concept that PRs are taking away jobs from Thais doesn't apply. Of course, if you work for a large company, you will not notice any difference but if you work for a very small company and have to do everything yourself, you will definitely notice the difference.

[MikeyIdea]

Immigration opened the 2009 submission period Wednesday 16-Dec. I was almost alone there at 8:30 but plenty of queue at 9:30. Recommend to be there 8:30 guys.

Yet another stamp in the passport

[stbkk]

Well done, and welcome to the queue club!

A couple of hours at immigration today is just the start, I'm afraid.

I've been waiting since December 2006 (along with everybody else who applied then and since!).

A friend of mine applied in 2008 and hasn't even had his interview yet.

The hardest part is staying alive long enough for it to be approved, apparently.

[Jonathanpattaya]

Thank you very much for a most thorough insight.

This is something I have been pondering for some time.

[tombkk]

Regarding the criminal record check, does this need to be done by yourself before applying or does immigration take your fingerprints after applying?

Also can someone please tell me if you need to apply in Bangkok for PR or in the province where you live?

In my case, I had to submit a letter from the German police, translated into Thai. The German embassy does not issue this letter, but they give you the address in Germany to which you have to send a request. They say it takes 6 weeks, but the letter was issued within 2 days of them receiving it, and they mailed to me right away. It depends on the country you're from, I guess.

My fingerprints were taken by the Thai PR officers, right outisde the now obsolete "Room 301", back in 2006. Things may have changed in the meantime.

[camerata]

It is definitely easier for a PR to get a WP. As you point out, you only have to deal with the Dept of Employment at the Labour Ministry which eliminates one complete layer of aggravation and probably the most difficult one. Your company doesn't need any Thai employees at all and there is very little scrutiny of the company, apart from the basic docs such as company affidavit, certificate of incorporation etc. The DoE doesn't not care whether the company is profitable or not. I once asked one of the officers at the DoE and she said that, frankly, will always approve applications for WPs from PRs that pass the most basic legal requirements because PRs are already "khon pai nai" (interior persons) and it is assumed they have to be allowed to earn a living. The concept that PRs are taking away jobs from Thais doesn't apply. Of course, if you work for a large company, you will not notice any difference but if you work for a very small company and have to do everything yourself, you will definitely notice the difference.

This is good to know. How about the registered capital of the employer. Is the usual 2 million baht requirement waived?

[rijb]

I’ve just scanned all the posts on this very informative thread. However, it feels more like an intense soap opera that’s keeping everybody in perpetual suspense.

Here’s what I’ve learned so far:

1. My chances for a PR are between slim and none because I’ve been on a retirement visa for the last 3 years and haven’t worked or paid any income taxes.

2. Having a Thai wife for 37 years, owning a house and having enough cash to live on here does not negate point # 1.

3. If, by some miracle, I did obtain a PR in my lifetime…I would also get the ‘privilege’ of paying Thai income taxes on my retirement income from the US.

Please tell me if I misunderstood anything or point me to any and all official Thai documentation that might enlighten me further. Thank you.

[camerata]

Here’s what I’ve learned so far:

1. My chances for a PR are between slim and none because I’ve been on a retirement visa for the last 3 years and haven’t worked or paid any income taxes.

2. Having a Thai wife for 37 years, owning a house and having enough cash to live on here does not negate point # 1.

3. If, by some miracle, I did obtain a PR in my lifetime…I would also get the ‘privilege’ of paying Thai income taxes on my retirement income from the US.

Please tell me if I misunderstood anything or point me to any and all official Thai documentation that might enlighten me further. Thank you.

1. Yes, as far as we know.

2. You can always ask at Immigration and claim to be a special case. It costs nothing to ask.

3. Having PR doesn't affect your tax status.

[MikeyIdea]

I thought I would write-up my experience after successfully having my PR application accepted last week. It'll be an unstructured mess but enjoy… I did every single paper including company papers myself (using letter of attorney and more from the company I work for) and it turned out to be easier than I thought, quite a lot easier actually. Lot's of papers! Lot's!! But not difficult

It's been said before and it deserves to be said again: the girls working at the residency section are very friendly and helpful indeed. They will clearly tell you if you pass or not, my feeling is that if they tell you that you won't pass, don't bother, come back next year and try again. Always be there (and at all other government offices) when they open if you can. I made a point of doing this and it helps a lot, get there later and people are more tired and stressed up and will have less time for you, and consequently, you will get less good help and information. 8 or 8:30 is the time, always

My case: The female immigration officer counted up my score and recommended work only, not registered marriage so no benefit in using child and family, and I will pass anyway. Based on wife child is "jong yaak" (messy difficult). I took her advice and it turned out to be correct. I asked about letter of recommendation from influential Thais, resume, explanations why I think it would be a benefit to Thailand to give me PR etc and she said – Not necessary. I think that I was friendly and pleasant, we joked and laughed and showed pictures of our kids etc, I cannot see any reason why she would deliberately say anything that could reduce my chances of getting application passed. She really did not think that any of those documents were of any use at immigration in my case. I asked about recommendation letter from a permanent secretary of finance that I know (the daughter of), very famous name that raise eyebrows, but got no to that to. No help at immigration, I will pass anyway and just make sure that you compliment missing papers (tax returns for application year etc) as quickly as possible to get into the first batch of people going to interview. If have recommendation from permanent secretary of finance, then better go to Ministry of Foreign Affairs after application arrived there and request to add. I submitted my application with 2 lines of personal statement on the T.M.9 form and a mainly empty personal information sheet (as family were not included).

A couple of things to consider: Personal tax consists of 3 papers: P.N.D.91, 50 tawi and receipts. Do NOT have any salary what-so-ever on your 50 tawi that you have no work permit for, this is one thing that they check. I understand it as salary needed is average salary because both officers I talked to asked me if I have had the salary for 3 years. I answered that: Well, it's gone up with some 5% per year or so but yes, my salary has been "up there" for 3 years. Both were satisfied with this answer and then calculated points from last 50 tawi. Work permit must be in the same company for at least one year before applying. Tax returns: P.N.D.91 must be certified by revenue officer on 20th floor in revenue office HQ for Bangkok residents, if you have made your tax return manually, then they also certify 50 tawi for you. If you used the internet, then revenue department cannot certify 50 tawi and company Must do it. This was difficult for me as my company initially refused to certify my personal tax papers. Financial statements for company is also done at 20th floor for Bangkok registered companies, same papers as P.N.D.1 is needed. Employment history letter took me 2 months to get, make sure to get receipt that you have requested it. You can compliment later after New Year if you have the receipt.

P.N.D.1 are issued by 11th floor in revenue department HQ for Bangkok registered companies. Person requesting need to supply: 1) Letter of Attorney signed by company authorised person 2) Company registration papers signed by company authorised person 3) Copy of juristic person registration signed by company authorised person 4) copy of id card of company authorised person signed by company authorised person 5) copy of tabien baan of company authorised person signed by company authorised person. And you yourself (the person that letter of attorney gives authorisation to) need to provide copy of passport with photo one page and copy of passport where last extension is one page. Takes a week or two to get in Bangkok.

Map cannot be printed from a computer, must be hand drawn. If apply for work, pictures at home include me only, not wife, kids. Pictures of work should not be too close up, me sitting at my desk working, one pic from each department area people working (me standing), pic of me standing by "company plate", pic outside office (identifying company or building). Home pics should include living room, bedroom, kitchen, and outside house, 1 picture outside house where house number can be seen must be included. Pictures should not be too close up, it's not me they want to look at (but they must be able to see that it is me).

I have been on consecutive extensions for the last 10 years and paid nearly 300,000 bath in tax last year, the officer thought I would get an 8 on the interview, together this is a clear pass. Thank You Immigration. I asked the officer if I had passed also without being able to speak Thai and she said Yes, if you just speak a little bit

If I had knows it was that easy, then I would have done it several years ago.

Edited January 4, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[chivo]

i assume i missed the application deadline... isn't it in december?

thanks if anyone knows...

[MikeyIdea]

Yepp, 29th of December was when they closed. Go for it this year, go and ask then early October bring tax returns etc and ask openly where you stand.

Good Luck

[SAMCHAROEN]

Mikeyldea..Congratulations !! you have finished the easy part... now comes the loooong wait which is the difficult part !! many of us have applied since 2006 and still waiting .. so in your case i belive it should be only after 2012 that you should expect to get a confirmation.

Enjoy the suspense and emotional roller coaster ride !

Edited January 4, 2010 by SAMCHAROEN

[stbkk]

Yes, well done on doing the time-consuming paperwork bit.

I also did it all myself back in 2006, and as you say, a lot to wade through but not too difficult in the end.

However as the above poster says, be prepared for a long wait now. I have a friend who applied in 2008, and he has not had his Thai interview yet....

Maybe another years worth of applications lying around in the immigration/interior ministry offices will finally clog up enough space so that they do something with them - hopefully not throw the lot away, though!

[MikeyIdea]

Yes it will be a very long wait… but

The long wait doesn’t bother me actually (yet… I bet I will feel very different about the whole thing in a couple of years time). I mainly did this to ensure that I will not be parted from my family in case I lose my job and “under consideration” does that as well as the actual PR. Don’t have to leave the country within midnight the same day if I lose my job any longer. – If I understand it correctly, please let me know if I have missed something.

One question: When I get the PR, then I Must have my name in a tabien baan. Good, that will be on my young daughers book. Now, can I be Chao Baan too????

This could be important actually because I don’t expect the relationship with the mother to last forever and if I am Chao Baan, then I can legally kick the mother out of the house… Sounds horrible, I will of course try everything I can before doing that

[Dork]

Mikeyldea..Congratulations !! you have finished the easy part... now comes the loooong wait which is the difficult part !! many of us have applied since 2006 and still waiting .. so in your case i belive it should be only after 2012 that you should expect to get a confirmation.

Enjoy the suspense and emotional roller coaster ride !

I'm also in the 2006 lot and have a friend that applied in 2008. He likes teasing that he will get PR at the same time as me. The worst thing is that I suspect he is probably right and that when the IM (or more likely his replacement) gets around to signing, he'll do the lot. He'll have a sore hand though.

[Dork]

One question: When I get the PR, then I Must have my name in a tabien baan. Good, that will be on my young daughers book. Now, can I be Chao Baan too????

I recall reading somewhere (probably here on Thaivisa) of someone else having exactly the same issue and the result was that after a lot of resistance from the Amphur, they eventually conceded that a PR indeed could be "Chao Baan". I hope so because I have an empty Tabien Baan and hope to do the same thing. Not kick out my wife though

[MikeyIdea]

Permanent residency can be good to many things, shall we add legally kicking out the wife from the house to the list of advantages

[camerata]

One question: When I get the PR, then I Must have my name in a tabien baan. Good, that will be on my young daughers book. Now, can I be Chao Baan too????

This could be important actually because I don’t expect the relationship with the mother to last forever and if I am Chao Baan, then I can legally kick the mother out of the house… Sounds horrible, I will of course try everything I can before doing that

As Dork said, we had one member who apparently reads Thai and was politely stubborn at the District Office and managed to become the jao baan despite their objections. But he was replying to another member who had been told this was impossible. I think it will depend on the people at the District Office you deal with. I'm doubtful they will let you be the jao baan of a house owned by someone else, but they might if it's a condominium in your own name.

[MikeyIdea]

I have a feeling that I can succeed in it, being polite and speak quick and fluent Thai and bring the owner of the house (my 5 year old daughter) should smooth out a lot of problems.

The problem is probably more to survive long enough to get the PR approved. It will take many years until I can confirm if I can be chao baan or not

Edited January 5, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[KamnanT]

One question: When I get the PR, then I Must have my name in a tabien baan. Good, that will be on my young daughers book. Now, can I be Chao Baan too????

This could be important actually because I don't expect the relationship with the mother to last forever and if I am Chao Baan, then I can legally kick the mother out of the house… Sounds horrible, I will of course try everything I can before doing that

As Dork said, we had one member who apparently reads Thai and was politely stubborn at the District Office and managed to become the jao baan despite their objections. But he was replying to another member who had been told this was impossible. I think it will depend on the people at the District Office you deal with. I'm doubtful they will let you be the jao baan of a house owned by someone else, but they might if it's a condominium in your own name.

I was granted PR in the last batch approved (December 2005 applications) and 6 months later bought a condominium. No objections at all at Vadhana District Office to my being the jao baan.

[jayboy]

Yes it will be a very long wait… but

The long wait doesn't bother me actually (yet… I bet I will feel very different about the whole thing in a couple of years time). I mainly did this to ensure that I will not be parted from my family in case I lose my job and "under consideration" does that as well as the actual PR. Don't have to leave the country within midnight the same day if I lose my job any longer. – If I understand it correctly, please let me know if I have missed something.

You may have missed something.My lawyers advised that a PR approval based on work is specifically related to the employment details submitted to Immigration.If you changed employment while the application was under consideration the new details can be submitted and that shouldn't be a problem as long as the new job was broadly in line with the old one.If you lost your job and didn't become re-employed before the approval then the application is null and void.Whether you advise Immigration is up to you but clearly there is a risk (and possibly a rather nasty one) if it's discovered you have not been honest about your position.This could happen if you were for example asked to provide additional info such as latest tax payment receipts.Having said that if you've been positively signed off by Immigration (i.e no more information required) and are waiting for Ministry of Interior approval it's possibly a risk worth taking.

Being Thailand it must be said, in the event you are without employment or approved employment, that it's helpful not to have local enemies at your old employer who are aware you are applying for PR!

[MikeyIdea]

True, if my employment change then I must also notify the residency section about it. It buys some time to have under cosideration in the passport, no more than that

[brianinbangkok]

One question: When I get the PR, then I Must have my name in a tabien baan. Good, that will be on my young daughers book. Now, can I be Chao Baan too????

This could be important actually because I don't expect the relationship with the mother to last forever and if I am Chao Baan, then I can legally kick the mother out of the house… Sounds horrible, I will of course try everything I can before doing that

As Dork said, we had one member who apparently reads Thai and was politely stubborn at the District Office and managed to become the jao baan despite their objections. But he was replying to another member who had been told this was impossible. I think it will depend on the people at the District Office you deal with. I'm doubtful they will let you be the jao baan of a house owned by someone else, but they might if it's a condominium in your own name.

I was granted PR in the last batch approved (December 2005 applications) and 6 months later bought a condominium. No objections at all at Vadhana District Office to my being the jao baan.

Yes but the key word is "condominium" I guess if foreigners even without a PR can own one here should be no issue making you jao baan on a condominium.

Maybe different case if its a house with its own land as we can not own Thai land in our own name here ?

Edited January 9, 2010 by brianinbangkok

[skippybangkok]

As Dork said, we had one member who apparently reads Thai and was politely stubborn at the District Office and managed to become the jao baan despite their objections. But he was replying to another member who had been told this was impossible. I think it will depend on the people at the District Office you deal with. I'm doubtful they will let you be the jao baan of a house owned by someone else, but they might if it's a condominium in your own name.

Technically my wife owns the house (as foreigners cannot own land), but i am the Jao Baan in the Blue Book.

[kanengkorat]

It is very useful information. Thanks

[MikeyIdea]

Excellent news Skippybangkok, thanks !

[brianinbangkok]

<<Same goes for me. I have heard it often and my lawyer mentioned it but I've never heard a clear explanation of why or how. I wonder if it means easier to get a work permit because you only have to deal with the Labour Dept and not immigration where in the case of a B extension, immigration can demand company accounts, photo's of the office etc etc.>>

That is what my friend tells me. He says that it is easier because you only have to deal with the Labor Dept and not Immigration. Apparently, Immigration has the onerous rules about 4 Thai employees, etc. My question is whether really the Immigration Dept is out of the picture even if you only have the "application pending" status.

It is definitely easier for a PR to get a WP. As you point out, you only have to deal with the Dept of Employment at the Labour Ministry which eliminates one complete layer of aggravation and probably the most difficult one. Your company doesn't need any Thai employees at all and there is very little scrutiny of the company, apart from the basic docs such as company affidavit, certificate of incorporation etc. The DoE doesn't not care whether the company is profitable or not. I once asked one of the officers at the DoE and she said that, frankly, will always approve applications for WPs from PRs that pass the most basic legal requirements because PRs are already "khon pai nai" (interior persons) and it is assumed they have to be allowed to earn a living. The concept that PRs are taking away jobs from Thais doesn't apply. Of course, if you work for a large company, you will not notice any difference but if you work for a very small company and have to do everything yourself, you will definitely notice the difference.

True, I have a PR but as nobody seems to be aware of the things you mention above when looking for a job its no easier then without a PR.

Would be very helpfull if DoE made it public as it would open up a lot of jobs for people with a PR if the could apply for jobs with the "Thai Nationals only" written under it in the newpapers. Even more so if companies are aware of this advantage of a PR.

I have only once seen a company say Thai Nationals or foreigners with a PR.

And this turned out to be a mistake because that company thought somebody with a PR no longer needed a WP.

[brianinbangkok]

OF course this is the case in most countries, once you have a PR you no longer need a WP. But not here in Thailand !

Edited January 13, 2010 by Mario2008
edited at request of poster - mario2008

[camerata]

True, I have a PR but as nobody seems to be aware of the things you mention above when looking for a job its no easier then without a PR.

Good point. In fact, many Thai institutions and companies don't even seem to know what an Alien's Book is. When visiting Chiang Mai recently the hotel refused to take anything other than my passport at check-in. But a smaller hotel in Chiang Rai would accept anything including Thai driving licence. Banks usually ask for my passport as ID and will only accept the Alien's Book if I insist.

[MikeyIdea]

What about national parks, do they accept PR book or do they still rip-off?