Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[brianinbangkok]

What about national parks, do they accept PR book or do they still rip-off?

The did not know what it is and keep asking for a WP.

So yes you still get ripped off.

I have had Ministry officials refusing my PR books and Blue house book as proof of residency in Thailand and demanding I go and get a letter from my Embassy.

Even very high level Thai people could not convince them.

I had staff at the Labour office in Ayutthaya looking for a Visa in my passport while they had my PR books in their hands.

This same staff insisted on stamping and wasting a page in my passport just like he would do with somebody who is here on a visa.

They also instructed me to go and show my WP to the police station that had issued the Red ID book.

Immigration staff at Suan Plu told me the Labour office has no reason to do that and should not put anything in my passport.

The police station that issued the red book wondered why I came there, they had never heard of this before.

Then when I handed in my WP at the same Labour office 2 years later they insisted I go to Suan Plu to hand in my WP and have my Visa canceled .... clueless.....

When I arrived at Suan Plu they confirmed I should have just handed in my WP at the Labour Office in

Ayutthaya and that there was no reason for me to report or come to Suan Plu.

Only after that the Thai HR manager who came along with me had enough confidence to go back to Ayutthaya and tell the Labour office manager they where wrong and just handed in the WP.

I agree with Camerata nobody knows what a PR is and why you should not be treated like every other farang on a WP and Visa, the work instructions they have in place do not mention the PR so lower staff have no idea how to deal with the rare farang with a PR and thats the real problem.

So they try and deal with you as if your a foreigner on a Visa and demand the same things like letter from your embassy and so on.

Every now and again I meet some smart government official who does know what it is and then things go very easy because they then follow the work instructions as if you are a Thai.

But that like 1% of the cases.

Edited January 12, 2010 by brianinbangkok

[camerata]

When I go upcountry I always take my passport plus my Alien's Book, just in case. The problem with NOT taking the Alien's Book is that your passport shows no current visa. When you get PR they put a stamp to that effect in your passport, but when you renew the passport that stamp is not transferred. Organizations used to looking for passport plus current visa get confused. Even at the international airport departure counter, when I ask for an embarkation card they sometimes get confused because everyone else has it stapled into their passport when they arrive rather than when they leave.

For domestic flights there seems to be no problem using a Thai driver's licence for ID.

[MikeyIdea]

I'm actually looking forward to having your hassles camerata, 4 years forward probably

Edited January 13, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[brianinbangkok]

When I go upcountry I always take my passport plus my Alien's Book, just in case. The problem with NOT taking the Alien's Book is that your passport shows no current visa. When you get PR they put a stamp to that effect in your passport, but when you renew the passport that stamp is not transferred. Organizations used to looking for passport plus current visa get confused. Even at the international airport departure counter, when I ask for an embarkation card they sometimes get confused because everyone else has it stapled into their passport when they arrive rather than when they leave.

For domestic flights there seems to be no problem using a Thai driver's licence for ID.

Well I need to get a new passport soon and you say that nothing is transfered from the old passport to the new one then ? So do you have to keep the old one and show it with the new one when you leave and enter the country ? Or do you just show the PR books and the reentry permit in the new passport ?

Additionaly I have a 1 multilple year re-entry permit in my passport will they transfer this or will I have to pay for a new one in my new passport ?

[stbkk]

I'm actually looking forward to having your hassles camerata, 4 years forward probably

Trust me, 3 years after my application was accepted its not quite so funny now....

[camerata]

Well I need to get a new passport soon and you say that nothing is transfered from the old passport to the new one then ? So do you have to keep the old one and show it with the new one when you leave and enter the country ? Or do you just show the PR books and the reentry permit in the new passport ?

No need to keep the old passport. Your blue PR book basically acts as a permanent visa. So when you leave the country, you need the re-entry permit in your passport and the blue PR book with a current "endorsement." The endorsement lasts 1 year. They expect you to sync the endorsement with the re-entry permit (which can be single or multiple). They will stamp both of them when you go out and when you come back in.

Additionaly I have a 1 multilple year re-entry permit in my passport will they transfer this or will I have to pay for a new one in my new passport ?

My guess is they'll cancel it and you'll pay for a "non-quota re-entry" permit when you get the blue PR book endorsed.

[brianinbangkok]

Well I need to get a new passport soon and you say that nothing is transfered from the old passport to the new one then ? So do you have to keep the old one and show it with the new one when you leave and enter the country ? Or do you just show the PR books and the reentry permit in the new passport ?

No need to keep the old passport. Your blue PR book basically acts as a permanent visa. So when you leave the country, you need the re-entry permit in your passport and the blue PR book with a current "endorsement." The endorsement lasts 1 year. They expect you to sync the endorsement with the re-entry permit (which can be single or multiple). They will stamp both of them when you go out and when you come back in.

Additionaly I have a 1 multilple year re-entry permit in my passport will they transfer this or will I have to pay for a new one in my new passport ?

My guess is they'll cancel it and you'll pay for a "non-quota re-entry" permit when you get the blue PR book endorsed.

That is going to be a problem then I rather have them cancel the re entry permit and the current endorsement in the blue book and give me a new one in both books that will allow me to leave for up to a year. I guess I better first go and ask at Changwattana road before I renew my passport then.

[camerata]

That is going to be a problem then I rather have them cancel the re entry permit and the current endorsement in the blue book and give me a new one in both books that will allow me to leave for up to a year. I guess I better first go and ask at Changwattana road before I renew my passport then.

Sorry, for some reason I thought you meant you had an old non-imm re-entry in your passport after you got PR. If you have an endorsement and a valid non-quota re-entry, I assume they would transfer it for you when you change passports. I would definitely take both passports to Immigration and ask if they can do it.

[brianinbangkok]

That is going to be a problem then I rather have them cancel the re entry permit and the current endorsement in the blue book and give me a new one in both books that will allow me to leave for up to a year. I guess I better first go and ask at Changwattana road before I renew my passport then.

Sorry, for some reason I thought you meant you had an old non-imm re-entry in your passport after you got PR. If you have an endorsement and a valid non-quota re-entry, I assume they would transfer it for you when you change passports. I would definitely take both passports to Immigration and ask if they can do it.

Well as my endorsement and valid non quota multiple re-entry expire in 3 months time and I plan on leaving for 6 months I rather have them cancel the old ones and give me a new ones that are valid for 12 months.

Otherwise I will be forced to come back to Thailand just to renew my re-entry permits.

I will get a single entry and get a new one each time I enter and leave Thailand and that way I can stay away 12 months without losing the PR.

May sound strange but I need to go back to my home country and work there for a few months.

Edited January 15, 2010 by brianinbangkok

[Ruprecht]

To obtain a criminal records clearance is it required for the American residency applicant in Thailand to submit fingerprints to FBI headquarters?

[THAIJAMES]

Yes that is correct, google for FBI fingerprint form, you can download a standard fingerprint card from the FBI web site. Take it to your local police station, have them do the fingerprints for you. Then send the form, money and your info to the FBI for a check. The informatino will come back in a few weeks.

Edited January 17, 2010 by THAIJAMES

[Arkady]

Many or maybe even most people who get PR status are already married to Thai nationals but here is an interesting facet of PR for those who want to marry a Thai national after becoming PRs. Being a PR gives you the right to register your marriage without having to get that silly bit of paper from your embassy on which you self declare your freedom to marry which then has to be translated and legalized by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The problem with this privelige is that most officials working in district offices will swear blind that it doesn't exist and want to treat a PR coming in to get married as if he has just come in from Suwarnabhumi on his first R&R trip to Thailand. I had a nasty experience at a Bangkok District Office where the head of the registration dept refused to accept that I didn't need the worthless affirmation with its pretty coloured stamps. His assistant was even nastier and disputed that I was entitled to a blue tabian baan and even went as far as to claim the ID number prefix "8" which all PRs have and keep if they later become Thai was only for Thai nationals. She claimed that I should have a yellow tabian baan and the prefix "6" which is for people on temporary visas. The two of them were basically implying that my Thai documents were forged in addition to denying me my clear right to be married at that office without superflous documentation required by temporary residents. Luckily I don't live in that khet and am unlikely to have to go back there, so I explained very politely what the prefix "8" means and that I was also very sorry to have to tell them they were also wrong about the embassy document. I waied these two miserable examples of wastage of tax payers' money and we left. Mrs Arkady, who was also fuming, then called the district office of the neighbouring khet and was told the same lie. Time was now running out to get the job done on the same day and we rushed to Khet Sathorn where I had recently had some other business and knew the staff to be knowledgeable and helpful. Everybody at Sathorn seemed to know that I didn't need the embassy paper and things proceeded extremely smoothly and with plenty of good humour. It is fortunate that people get to choose which district office they register their marriages.

The moral of this story is that PRs wanting to register their marriages in Thailand should either go to Sathorn (if they are in Bangkok), shop around in advance for a district office in their area that knows the regulations, or, failing either of those, bite the bullet and go to their embassy and pay through the nose for unnecessary documentation.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Arkady

[camerata]

The problem with this privelige is that most officials working in district offices will swear blind that it doesn't exist and want to treat a PR coming in to get married as if he has just come in from Suwarnabhumi on his first R&R trip to Thailand.

I guess the rules for everything related to PR must be written down somewhere but in typical Thai fashion they aren't made public so no one can ever argue with them.

I would like to know if legally a PR has to carry his passport and Alien's Book with him at all times. Since the passport doesn't carry a valid visa stamp, I would think he does.

She claimed that I should have a yellow tabian baan and the prefix "6" which is for people on temporary visas.

If 8 is for PRs, 6 is for yellow tabien baan holders and 3 is for Thais (from what I've seen), I wonder if there is a 1 and 2, and what they mean? Aristocrats?

[MikeyIdea]

First letter of ID card number, free translation

1 is for Thai nationals born in Thailand after 31 May 2527

2 is for Thai nationals born in Thailand but reported late (after the 15 days period expired)

3 is for Thai (allow foreigners too) who have name in tabien baan born before 31 May 2527

4 is for Thai (allow foreigners too) but never had ID card before

5 is for Thai who was approved to miss census (didn't join census but puujai baan etc guarantee person is Thai...)

6 is for person who illegally or legally immigrated to Thailand but has residency not officially accepted by officer

7 is for children of 6

8 is for foregners who legally come to Thailand and are allowed to stay permanently and foreigners who get Thai Nationality

[tamvine]

i m expected to get thai residency soon. my mother is living with me for past 4 years on non imm O visa based on my non imm B visa. what happens to her visa once I get PR? How can I continue to keep getting her visa>

[samran]

First letter of ID card number, free translation

1 is for Thai nationals born in Thailand after 31 May 2527

2 is for Thai nationals born in Thailand but reported late (after the 15 days period expired)

3 is for Thai (allow foreigners too) who have name in tabien baan born before 31 May 2527

4 is for Thai (allow foreigners too) but never had ID card before

5 is for Thai who was approved to miss census (didn't join census but puujai baan etc guarantee person is Thai...)

6 is for person who illegally or legally immigrated to Thailand but has residency not officially accepted by officer

7 is for children of 6

8 is for foregners who legally come to Thailand and are allowed to stay permanently and foreigners who get Thai Nationality

I'm an overseas born Thai citizen with a 5 on my ID card. Didn't get on the tabieen baan till I was 29.

[MikeyIdea]

Approved because not in the country yet = valid reason to miss census?

[stbkk]

i m expected to get thai residency soon. my mother is living with me for past 4 years on non imm O visa based on my non imm B visa. what happens to her visa once I get PR? How can I continue to keep getting her visa>

If you have any firm news about applications being approved, that would be great!

I applied in 2006, and have heard nothing at all for well over 2 years.....

[Arkady]

I would like to know if legally a PR has to carry his passport and Alien's Book with him at all times. Since the passport doesn't carry a valid visa stamp, I would think he does.

When I got my alien book the police told me it had the force of an ID card and was supposed to be carried around at all times and that there was no longer any need to carry a passport. This seems logical as the origin of alien books was to control Chinese gangsters who would have had Chinese documents unreadable by Thai policemen, if they had any Chinese documents at all. Also it is issued by the police station where the alien lives and should therefore be reliable. The reality today is, however, that most Thais that need copies of your personal documents are not interested in your alien book. They usually want your passport and work permit. I had a polite row with a bank officer some years ago because she wanted to close down my bank account when I applied for a new savings book, because I didn't have a work permit at the time. She argued that an alien book, tabian baan and certificate of residence didn't count for anything without the magic little blue book. I refused to leave the bank until she had got some one from head office on the phone to explain to me the bank's curious policy not to allow permanent residents to bank with them without a work permit which meant that all PRs would have to do everything in cash, including share transactions etc after retirement. Eventually she got on the phone and was obviously roundly criticised by the person at head office and had to apologize to me for her stupidity. Basically you have to stand your ground in the face of this type of nonsense. If it comes from a government official you have the right to sue them in the Administrative Court. if all else fails.

[brianinbangkok]

The moral of this story is that PRs wanting to register their marriages in Thailand should either go to Sathorn (if they are in Bangkok), shop around in advance for a district office in their area that knows the regulations, or, failing either of those, bite the bullet and go to their embassy and pay through the nose for unnecessary documentation.

I agree I had the same question and the officer insisted I had to go to the Embassy to get a piece of paper, my red book, blue book and house book was not enough for them.

Good to know Sathorn does know this Thanks For Good Info.

Edited January 22, 2010 by camerata
Cut excessive quote.

[brianinbangkok]

I would like to know if legally a PR has to carry his passport and Alien's Book with him at all times. Since the passport doesn't carry a valid visa stamp, I would think he does.

When I got my alien book the police told me it had the force of an ID card and was supposed to be carried around at all times and that there was no longer any need to carry a passport. This seems logical as the origin of alien books was to control Chinese gangsters who would have had Chinese documents unreadable by Thai policemen, if they had any Chinese documents at all. Also it is issued by the police station where the alien lives and should therefore be reliable. The reality today is, however, that most Thais that need copies of your personal documents are not interested in your alien book. They usually want your passport and work permit. I had a polite row with a bank officer some years ago because she wanted to close down my bank account when I applied for a new savings book, because I didn't have a work permit at the time. She argued that an alien book, tabian baan and certificate of residence didn't count for anything without the magic little blue book. I refused to leave the bank until she had got some one from head office on the phone to explain to me the bank's curious policy not to allow permanent residents to bank with them without a work permit which meant that all PRs would have to do everything in cash, including share transactions etc after retirement. Eventually she got on the phone and was obviously roundly criticised by the person at head office and had to apologize to me for her stupidity. Basically you have to stand your ground in the face of this type of nonsense. If it comes from a government official you have the right to sue them in the Administrative Court. if all else fails.

I used to have had the exact same problem with banks but lately they seem to know what my red police ID book is at Siam Commercial Banks and Kasikorn banks, it seems like head office informed them of us weird PR people.

When they issued me my police ID book they told me I should use this when asked for ID and should no longer carry my passport as ID.

Additionaly I have have often thought why do we actually need a WP if we have a PR, there are laws preventing us from doing certain jobs so that covers job that are banned for foreigners.

It would not suprise me at all if in fact legaly we do not need a WP.....

Except nobody knows this or can find it in writing ?

This would also explain why they always ??? approve a WP for holders of a PR and why there seems to be no mentioning of PR holders in Labour Office work instructions.

Maybe something a lawyer could look into.

Edited January 22, 2010 by brianinbangkok

[Arkady]

Additionaly I have have often thought why do we actually need a WP if we have a PR, there are laws preventing us from doing certain jobs so that covers job that are banned for foreigners.

It would not suprise me at all if in fact legaly we do not need a WP.....

Except nobody knows this or can find it in writing ?

This would also explain why they always ??? approve a WP for holders of a PR and why there seems to be no mentioning of PR holders in Labour Office work instructions.

Maybe something a lawyer could look into.

From memory the Working of Aliens Act makes no mention of the nature of aliens' immigration status in the Kingdom. So I presume there are unfortunately no legal grounds for challenging the need for PRs to have WPs. As you say, Labour Ministry officials seem to accept that they have to issue WPs to PRs almost autmatically, if documentation is complete and the work is permitted for aliens. The latter point seems the only justification for it. The Foreign Chambers of Commerce have in the past pressed the government to do away with WPs and re-entry visas for PRs and replace the cert of residence and alien book with a "green card" type system but to my knowledge have never received a response. Since there are so few PRs and no new ones being created at the moment, we can't present much of a threat to those in protected occupations. Unfortunately the small numbers make them think it is not worth spending time on anything to make our lives easier. I remember that the regulations for multi-entry rentry visas for PRs took another year to be issued after the same regulations were issued for non-imm B visas and I remember being galled to have to keep paying 500 baht per re-entry visa while my colleagues were already getting multis. And that was the Immigration Bureau which knows all about PR.

[SAMCHAROEN]

Three years and still counting.... I wonder why they are not issuing PRs ?

[THAIJAMES]

Three years and still counting.... I wonder why they are not issuing PRs ?

Probably because there is no financial incentive.

[kcallagmy]

I do not know. 2006/2007/2008 with all those applicants at minimum 95,000+ baht/person. Seems to be a nice chunk of change the government could pull in rather easily......

[camerata]

I do not know. 2006/2007/2008 with all those applicants at minimum 95,000+ baht/person. Seems to be a nice chunk of change the government could pull in rather easily......

Or 200,000 baht in some cases. Good point. Despite all the speculation, there is no real logic to the idea that someone is waiting for money when the Interior Ministry has changed hands several times since 2006. The normal processing time used to be about 16 months, so it is currently the 2006 and 2007 applications that are overdue for approval.

[stbkk]

I do not know. 2006/2007/2008 with all those applicants at minimum 95,000+ baht/person. Seems to be a nice chunk of change the government could pull in rather easily......

Or 200,000 baht in some cases. Good point. Despite all the speculation, there is no real logic to the idea that someone is waiting for money when the Interior Ministry has changed hands several times since 2006. The normal processing time used to be about 16 months, so it is currently the 2006 and 2007 applications that are overdue for approval.

It seems that the Thai citizenship applications are equally stuck, according to other posts on this forum.

Perhaps they are trying to tell us all something?

[THAIJAMES]

I do not know. 2006/2007/2008 with all those applicants at minimum 95,000+ baht/person. Seems to be a nice chunk of change the government could pull in rather easily......

I meant personal financial incentive for the minister to sign, why sign, he doesn't get anything out of it.

Edited January 26, 2010 by THAIJAMES

[THAIJAMES]

I do not know. 2006/2007/2008 with all those applicants at minimum 95,000+ baht/person. Seems to be a nice chunk of change the government could pull in rather easily......

Or 200,000 baht in some cases. Good point. Despite all the speculation, there is no real logic to the idea that someone is waiting for money when the Interior Ministry has changed hands several times since 2006. The normal processing time used to be about 16 months, so it is currently the 2006 and 2007 applications that are overdue for approval.

It seems that the Thai citizenship applications are equally stuck, according to other posts on this forum.

Perhaps they are trying to tell us all something?

maybe they are waiting to reduce the fees and increase the benefits before they accept us.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

or could it be the opposite? oh no! imagine we'd be pending on the approval of a new law fixing the fees to 500,000...

BTW, somebody has any clue/recent data about the number of applicants for residency each year, for citizenship?