Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[tombkk]

What an interesting turn in this thread.

No, you don't need a lawyer to make sure you send in all the documents required in the list prepared by the PR department - the list is in English language.

I don't know a single PR applicant (successfull or still waiting since 2006) who used a lawyer. More to the point, I don't know anybody who bought laptops for the immigration officers. Maybe some lawyers just want to justify their invoices to naive applicants.

The reason that virtually no applications have been approved in the past several years has nothing to do with the immigration officers or their laptops. Don't let any lawyer fool you into that line of thinking. In fact, do not use a lawyer. If he says he has to buy laptops, he is crooked anyway, which is proof that he is not to be trusted.

Get real, people. Don't fall for crooked lawyers.

[samran]

Immigration do not ask for bribes from private individuals but they do request "help" (laptops etc) from law firms, another reason to do the paper work yourself

Not in my experience or in the experience of anyone I know.In fact I have never heard of any such irregularities in respect of PR applications when dealt with by the Department of Immigration.There is far too common an assumption that most Thai officials are corrupt:most aren't.

I have commented before on the choice of law firms.It's essential to choose the right firm.Most of the successful applicants I know simply use the international firms they were used to dealing with (headed by foreign lawyers although that undeniable fact gives some people on this forum an apoplexy).Most of this firms will have an experienced immigration specialist (obviously a Thai lawyer) who will take responsibility, although there will be minions dispatched to do the tedious aspects.

I don't deny that this is all rather expensive.One could take a risk and choose one of the firms specialising in servicing expatriates but I wouldn't recommend it.It can be done solo and I know someone who has done it.He spoke Thai very well and was very personable/charming - but he also for various reasons had a lot of time on his hands.

aww, I only get apoplectic if you claim they are recognized as lawyers on their work permit.

[MikeyIdea]

What an interesting turn in this thread.

No, you don't need a lawyer to make sure you send in all the documents required in the list prepared by the PR department - the list is in English language.

I don't know a single PR applicant (successfull or still waiting since 2006) who used a lawyer. More to the point, I don't know anybody who bought laptops for the immigration officers. Maybe some lawyers just want to justify their invoices to naive applicants.

The reason that virtually no applications have been approved in the past several years has nothing to do with the immigration officers or their laptops. Don't let any lawyer fool you into that line of thinking. In fact, do not use a lawyer. If he says he has to buy laptops, he is crooked anyway, which is proof that he is not to be trusted.

Get real, people. Don't fall for crooked lawyers.

Agree that it's not difficult at all to get all documents yourself, takes a bit of time and effort that's all. Gathering all papers and go to immigration a total of 4 times took approx 4 full days in total for me. Lawyer not needed at all and I totally agree on never bringing one to immigration ever. For the time-strapped, using messengers (or a lawyers messenger...) to get the required documentation is fine.

Note that I make the point that a private individual would never be asked for anything. I have known the lawyer who told me about the laptops thingie for over 5 years, have no reason to think that he fabricated it. I am not saying that he said one laptop for every single applicant either

Immigration d-section have called me a total of 2 times, both times were after 6 PM. They work overtime and they still have time to be both helpful and friendly

Edited February 25, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[jayboy]

aww, I only get apoplectic if you claim they are recognized as lawyers on their work permit.

But I entirely concur with that.

[jayboy]

What an interesting turn in this thread.

No, you don't need a lawyer to make sure you send in all the documents required in the list prepared by the PR department - the list is in English language.

I don't know a single PR applicant (successfull or still waiting since 2006) who used a lawyer. More to the point, I don't know anybody who bought laptops for the immigration officers. Maybe some lawyers just want to justify their invoices to naive applicants.

The reason that virtually no applications have been approved in the past several years has nothing to do with the immigration officers or their laptops. Don't let any lawyer fool you into that line of thinking. In fact, do not use a lawyer. If he says he has to buy laptops, he is crooked anyway, which is proof that he is not to be trusted.

Get real, people. Don't fall for crooked lawyers.

Agree with most of this, but the fact remains that many have used lawyers to good effect.You can do it yourself but the busy executive will probably use a decent lawyer.It's also rather more than putting the documents together by the way.I agree that second or third tier firms should be avoided.

[GarryP]

The bit about giving laptops, etc. may be a bit misleading. Many firms that provide visa services for fee paying clients and deal with immigration on a daily basis are asked to help out from time to time with equipment, etc. This is like many other gov't departments. Such requests are not made to individuals or for individual visa, PR, etc applications. It is a once or twice a year type of thing. It is usually done above board too and such "donations" are documented.

[MikeyIdea]

The bit about giving laptops, etc. may be a bit misleading. Many firms that provide visa services for fee paying clients and deal with immigration on a daily basis are asked to help out from time to time with equipment, etc. This is like many other gov't departments. Such requests are not made to individuals or for individual visa, PR, etc applications. It is a once or twice a year type of thing. It is usually done above board too and such "donations" are documented.

What I mentioned was under the table to individuals, that was what was causing the main problem, cannot be properly booked

This opened up a car of worms

[Richard4849]

I did my PR completely on my own -- no lawyers and no "special payments". Nor were there any requests for such.

As a matter of fact, after I got my PR, I bought a small gift for the immigration lady who had been my point of contact throughout the process. She was extremely helpful and accommodating throughout the process.

Long story short -- she didn't want to accept it, even though it was just a small thing worth only a few thousand baht. I had to just about force it on her.

I think many of these lawyer-fixer types are pure bottom feeders, and unnecessary if not a downright hindrance to the whole process.

[tombkk]

What an interesting turn in this thread.

No, you don't need a lawyer to make sure you send in all the documents required in the list prepared by the PR department - the list is in English language.

I don't know a single PR applicant (successfull or still waiting since 2006) who used a lawyer. More to the point, I don't know anybody who bought laptops for the immigration officers. Maybe some lawyers just want to justify their invoices to naive applicants.

The reason that virtually no applications have been approved in the past several years has nothing to do with the immigration officers or their laptops. Don't let any lawyer fool you into that line of thinking. In fact, do not use a lawyer. If he says he has to buy laptops, he is crooked anyway, which is proof that he is not to be trusted.

Get real, people. Don't fall for crooked lawyers.

Agree with most of this, but the fact remains that many have used lawyers to good effect.You can do it yourself but the busy executive will probably use a decent lawyer.It's also rather more than putting the documents together by the way.I agree that second or third tier firms should be avoided.

I am a busy executive myself. The lawyer can't take any time off your schedule, as all they can do is tell you which documents are needed, and it is you who has to provide them.

A lawyer offered me a fee of THB 40,000 for PR appplication, and another THB 60,000 in case of success. Or was it the other way around, I don't remember. If you want to part with THB 100,000, please let me know and I'll be your consultant - rather than a lawyer who is not approved to the Thai Board anyway.,

Edited February 25, 2011 by tombkk

[tombkk]

The bit about giving laptops, etc. may be a bit misleading. Many firms that provide visa services for fee paying clients and deal with immigration on a daily basis are asked to help out from time to time with equipment, etc. This is like many other gov't departments. Such requests are not made to individuals or for individual visa, PR, etc applications. It is a once or twice a year type of thing. It is usually done above board too and such "donations" are documented.

What I mentioned was under the table to individuals, that was what was causing the main problem, cannot be properly booked

This opened up a car of worms

I'd like to see that car. Please send pics.

[tombkk]

I did my PR completely on my own -- no lawyers and no "special payments". Nor were there any requests for such.

As a matter of fact, after I got my PR, I bought a small gift for the immigration lady who had been my point of contact throughout the process. She was extremely helpful and accommodating throughout the process.

Long story short -- she didn't want to accept it, even though it was just a small thing worth only a few thousand baht. I had to just about force it on her.

I think many of these lawyer-fixer types are pure bottom feeders, and unnecessary if not a downright hindrance to the whole process.

You shouldn't have bought that gift, much less force it on her. I hope you know that by now.

[Richard4849]

And why is that, exactly? It wasn't a bribe to obtain any favors; it was a small token of appreciation given after my PR was granted (and she wasn't even involved in the decision process). It broke neither any law nor any rules of propriety of which I'm aware.

And, if you were to read the Royal Thai Police Handbook, there is nothing to prevent an officer from accepting a gift of this type -- which is completely different from a bribe given to an officer to either influence him or her to disregard their professional responsibility or to provide an undue advantage.

[jayboy]

I am a busy executive myself. The lawyer can't take any time off your schedule, as all they can do is tell you which documents are needed, and it is you who has to provide them.

A lawyer offered me a fee of THB 40,000 for PR appplication, and another THB 60,000 in case of success. Or was it the other way around, I don't remember. If you want to part with THB 100,000, please let me know and I'll be your consultant - rather than a lawyer who is not approved to the Thai Board anyway.,

This tells me a couple of things most importantly you were dealing with the wrong legal firm.No reputable lawyer would charge a success fee for helping with PR.A first class lawyer would not take the case on unless convinced all criteria were met.(Obviously this is in reference to the years before the current hiatus with the Ministry of the Interior).I have already made it clear that using the right lawyer is not a cheap business.Using a good lawyer in any circumstances is not a cheap business.

I have also made it clear that it is perfectly possible to process the PR application oneself.I know people who have successfully done this.I think it is also true that using a lawyer or not using a lawyer makes no difference to the Department of Immigration.I don't think Immigration are impressed or unimpressed by an applicant having a lawyer in tow.(In practice this is hardly ever the lawyer himself but a legal assistant type.)

Where you are wrong is that a lawyer cannot take time off your schedule.A friend of mine who successfully applied for PR told me that the legal firm responsible liaised with his secretarial staff.The amount of paper work and follow up and minor problems should not be underestimated.He saved a huge amount of time and was prepared to pay for it.Call it the business class approach if you like.It's more expensive than travelling cattle class and doesn't really offer that much extra but it gets you to your destination in comfort at some significant extra cost.

Edited February 26, 2011 by jayboy

[tombkk]

I am a busy executive myself. The lawyer can't take any time off your schedule, as all they can do is tell you which documents are needed, and it is you who has to provide them.

A lawyer offered me a fee of THB 40,000 for PR appplication, and another THB 60,000 in case of success. Or was it the other way around, I don't remember. If you want to part with THB 100,000, please let me know and I'll be your consultant - rather than a lawyer who is not approved to the Thai Board anyway.,

This tells me a couple of things most importantly you were dealing with the wrong legal firm.No reputable lawyer would charge a success fee for helping with PR.A first class lawyer would not take the case on unless convinced all criteria were met.(Obviously this is in reference to the years before the current hiatus with the Ministry of the Interior).I have already made it clear that using the right lawyer is not a cheap business.Using a good lawyer in any circumstances is not a cheap business.

I have also made it clear that it is perfectly possible to process the PR application oneself.I know people who have successfully done this.I think it is also true that using a lawyer or not using a lawyer makes no difference to the Department of Immigration.I don't think Immigration are impressed or unimpressed by an applicant having a lawyer in tow.(In practice this is hardly ever the lawyer himself but a legal assistant type.)

Where you are wrong is that a lawyer cannot take time off your schedule.A friend of mine who successfully applied for PR told me that the legal firm responsible liaised with his secretarial staff.The amount of paper work and follow up and minor problems should not be underestimated.He saved a huge amount of time and was prepared to pay for it.Call it the business class approach if you like.It's more expensive than travelling cattle class and doesn't really offer that much extra but it gets you to your destination in comfort at some significant extra cost.

The lawyer would not have saved me any time. That's my point. I do fly business class on long-haul flights, because I see a difference. If there is no difference, why would I pay more money?

If course, this applies to my situation, as well as the people I know who have applied. The situation of your friends may be different.

[jayboy]

The lawyer would not have saved me any time. That's my point. I do fly business class on long-haul flights, because I see a difference. If there is no difference, why would I pay more money?

If course, this applies to my situation, as well as the people I know who have applied. The situation of your friends may be different.

Doesn't really make sense I'm afraid.Perhaps you are not as busy as you think! Or perhaps you enjoyed hanging around Immigration totties !

If the lawyer saved an applicant making one trip to Immigration, he saved time for that applicant.And in practice there is much more to it.

Once again I'm not suggesting a lawyer is essential,just helpful for genuinely busy people.

[tombkk]

The lawyer would not have saved me any time. That's my point. I do fly business class on long-haul flights, because I see a difference. If there is no difference, why would I pay more money?

If course, this applies to my situation, as well as the people I know who have applied. The situation of your friends may be different.

Doesn't really make sense I'm afraid.Perhaps you are not as busy as you think! Or perhaps you enjoyed hanging around Immigration totties !

If the lawyer saved an applicant making one trip to Immigration, he saved time for that applicant.And in practice there is much more to it.

Once again I'm not suggesting a lawyer is essential,just helpful for genuinely busy people.

Well, what can I say. If you think the lawyer's work is worth a hundert thou, go for it.

[skippybangkok]

I did my PR completely on my own -- no lawyers and no "special payments". Nor were there any requests for such.

As a matter of fact, after I got my PR, I bought a small gift for the immigration lady who had been my point of contact throughout the process. She was extremely helpful and accommodating throughout the process.

Long story short -- she didn't want to accept it, even though it was just a small thing worth only a few thousand baht. I had to just about force it on her.

I think many of these lawyer-fixer types are pure bottom feeders, and unnecessary if not a downright hindrance to the whole process.

I second that. Same, mine was straight forward 1) submit 2) waittttttttttttttttttttttttttt 3) get.

[MikeyIdea]

The bit about giving laptops, etc. may be a bit misleading. Many firms that provide visa services for fee paying clients and deal with immigration on a daily basis are asked to help out from time to time with equipment, etc. This is like many other gov't departments. Such requests are not made to individuals or for individual visa, PR, etc applications. It is a once or twice a year type of thing. It is usually done above board too and such "donations" are documented.

What I mentioned was under the table to individuals, that was what was causing the main problem, cannot be properly booked

This opened up a car of worms

I'd like to see that car. Please send pics.

I don't know what kind of cars the immigration officers on the D-section drive around in.

If they have cars at all then I bet they're old ones considering their bad salaries. Some of their kids have new laptops though. And I don't blame them at all

Edited February 28, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[Arkady]

I contacted a couple of law firms before I started applying for PR to see if they could help. Neither of them seemed to know much about the process but focused on the need to pay bribes. So I didn't pursue things with them. If I had, I am sure they would have insisted on tea money that probably would never have got as far as Immigration, or at least very little of it. Unless you have time on your hands, you will need some secretarial help to prepare all the documents and liaise with Immigration but this certainly doesn't have to be law firm. In fact it is better, if you have some one under your direct control liaising for you, rather than a remote law firm. Immigration is able and willing to provide all the information you need about how to prepare the application. In the event, no bribes were requested or necessary in my case, although a friend claimed he found a way to pay a bribe the same year and skipped one interview stage and got his PR a few months before me. In the last few years it has only been high level connections that count.

[jayboy]

I contacted a couple of law firms before I started applying for PR to see if they could help. Neither of them seemed to know much about the process but focused on the need to pay bribes. So I didn't pursue things with them. If I had, I am sure they would have insisted on tea money that probably would never have got as far as Immigration, or at least very little of it. Unless you have time on your hands, you will need some secretarial help to prepare all the documents and liaise with Immigration but this certainly doesn't have to be law firm. In fact it is better, if you have some one under your direct control liaising for you, rather than a remote law firm. Immigration is able and willing to provide all the information you need about how to prepare the application. In the event, no bribes were requested or necessary in my case, although a friend claimed he found a way to pay a bribe the same year and skipped one interview stage and got his PR a few months before me. In the last few years it has only been high level connections that count.

Then you contacted the wrong firms.I agree you however about secretarial help.A first class Thai secretary could in many respects - but not all - be a substitute for a law firm.I am more dubious about your "direct control" argument.I have never heard of bribery at the Immigration Department in relation to PR applications.

[MikeyIdea]

I contacted a couple of law firms before I started applying for PR to see if they could help. Neither of them seemed to know much about the process but focused on the need to pay bribes. So I didn't pursue things with them. If I had, I am sure they would have insisted on tea money that probably would never have got as far as Immigration, or at least very little of it. Unless you have time on your hands, you will need some secretarial help to prepare all the documents and liaise with Immigration but this certainly doesn't have to be law firm. In fact it is better, if you have some one under your direct control liaising for you, rather than a remote law firm. Immigration is able and willing to provide all the information you need about how to prepare the application. In the event, no bribes were requested or necessary in my case, although a friend claimed he found a way to pay a bribe the same year and skipped one interview stage and got his PR a few months before me. In the last few years it has only been high level connections that count.

Then you contacted the wrong firms.I agree you however about secretarial help.A first class Thai secretary could in many respects - but not all - be a substitute for a law firm.I am more dubious about your "direct control" argument.I have never heard of bribery at the Immigration Department in relation to PR applications.

I was the one opening up this can of worms so I just want to make sure what I mentioned is not mis-understood

1) I do not mention corruption money. I have never heard anyone being asked to pay corruption money to immigrations d-section and I do not think it exists either

2) Private individuals would Never be asked for anything what-so-ever, never

3) The expensive legal firm I refer to had been asked to provide laptops as gifts. Nice and polite approach, not hard and ugly, in the standard polite Thai way

4) The lawyer and I started to talk about this because he saw my already existing PR stamp in my passport. There was thereby no incentive for him to make this up

5) I am sure that it is pretty common that law firms try to exploit westerners

6) Actually, immigration gets the question if money can help from westerners or westerners representative more often than they want to hear it

Nice and helpful people at immigrations d -section, I'd advice not bringing a lawyer there but use help to gather necessary documentation

Edited March 4, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[larky]

Camerata /Trajan, I have one page left in my PR book, can you tell me what docs are required to renew my book. Also, can it be done in one visit, and is there any cost.

[http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Camerata-s-Guide-Permanent-Reside-t74654.html ]

Certificate of Residence

I filled-up my book (with exit and entry stamps) and applied for a new one...they said it will be white color from now on....is there any significance to that??

[Richard4849]

First book is blue, subsequent ones are white. No specific significance as far as I am aware.

[missmod]

Something I forgot to mention is that when applying for PR you are given a 6-month extension visa, which is followed by 3-month extensions until the application is approved or rejected. But you can ask for 6-month extensions and that will save you a work permit renewal each time. Make a point of seeing the same officer you dealt with before and asking for 6 months.

Sawatdii ka,

Thank you so much for your useful and helpful information.

My name is Mod.I am a Thai language teacher and I was contacted by an English guy to instruct his Thai language in order to go to the PR VDO interview next Wednesday . We only focus on questions that we think he might be asked. I would like to have questions that were asked from the PR interview. We have covered stuff like his background etc. and I can't think of anything more. Please help us I will appreciate.

If you would be so kind please PM me.

Kop Kun Ka

Mod

Edited March 6, 2011 by Mario2008
email removed per foru m rules

[SAMCHAROEN]

It's 6 month extensions (if you want 1year then you need to

present documents like you used to when you had not yet applied for PR)

[Arkady]

Camerata /Trajan, I have one page left in my PR book, can you tell me what docs are required to renew my book. Also, can it be done in one visit, and is there any cost.

[http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Camerata-s-Guide-Permanent-Reside-t74654.html ]

Certificate of Residence

I filled-up my book (with exit and entry stamps) and applied for a new one...they said it will be white color from now on....is there any significance to that??

You need passport, tabien baan, alien book, maybe work permit (if working) and some photographs. It can't be done in one day. It takes a few days (3-5 working days). There is a cost but I can't remember how much. The white book is a bit annoying because: 1) it gets dirty quickly; and 2) it says "Duplicate" on the front, prompting various ignorant officials to ask why have a duplicate and where is the original. Cannot fathom the logic of the colour code or "duplicate" designation. It is a life long document and every one gets a duplicate after the first few years of endorsements.

[Arkady]

Sawatdii ka,

Thank you so much for your useful and helpful information.

My name is Mod.I am a Thai language teacher and I was contacted by an English guy to instruct his Thai language in order to go to the PR VDO interview next Wednesday . We only focus on questions that we think he might be asked. I would like to have questions that were asked from the PR interview. We have covered stuff like his background etc. and I can't think of anything more. Please help us I will appreciate.

If you would be so kind please PM me.

Kop Kun Ka

Mod

Maybe too late for this candidate but I believe a common question in the past has been, "Please describe your contribution to Thai society".

[SAMCHAROEN]

Sawatdii ka,

Thank you so much for your useful and helpful information.

My name is Mod.I am a Thai language teacher and I was contacted by an English guy to instruct his Thai language in order to go to the PR VDO interview next Wednesday . We only focus on questions that we think he might be asked. I would like to have questions that were asked from the PR interview. We have covered stuff like his background etc. and I can't think of anything more. Please help us I will appreciate.

If you would be so kind please PM me.

Kop Kun Ka

Mod

Maybe too late for this candidate but I believe a common question in the past has been, "Please describe your contribution to Thai society".

Missmod, It has been mentioned earlier in this forum topic that they are not accepting any new applications for PR this year.

I am not sure how your "English guy" got an appointment for an video interview.

In my case, during the interview they asked us (Thai wife & me) how/where we lived, age, how we met and few personal questions. The lady taking the interview was quite nice and polite.

In the part which was video taped she asked me to introduce myself in Thai and say something about myself and why I would like to be granted a PR.

Oh.. and couple of weeks after the interview they sent 2 representatives to inspect our home. They come without appointment (1 hour before their visit they called to inform us that they were on the way).

They looked around the house and took pictures of our bedroom (bed specially), wardrobe (with both our clothes) and living room TV ... etc...etc..

Funny thing was that while they were taking pictures their camera batteries ran out and they asked us if we had some. My wife and I both looked around in the usual places where we keep spare batteries but we did not have the kind they needed. So my wife went down to the super market in our building to get some. Was this a test or not , I don't know.

Later they wanted to talk to 2 witnesses who were not related to us in anyway so we called our building manager and our Thai neighbor to testify that we were indeed a married couple.

All this took place in a nice and friendly atmosphere and at no point did we feel uncomfortable with them.

[tombkk]

Sawatdii ka,

Thank you so much for your useful and helpful information.

My name is Mod.I am a Thai language teacher and I was contacted by an English guy to instruct his Thai language in order to go to the PR VDO interview next Wednesday . We only focus on questions that we think he might be asked. I would like to have questions that were asked from the PR interview. We have covered stuff like his background etc. and I can't think of anything more. Please help us I will appreciate.

If you would be so kind please PM me.

Kop Kun Ka

Mod

Maybe too late for this candidate but I believe a common question in the past has been, "Please describe your contribution to Thai society".

For me, they had a two-page list of prepared questions. In fact, it was multiple choice.

One example I remember: "What is the current capital of Thailand?" Choices were: Bangkok, Ayutthaya, Sukhothai and some other. The whole interview was not about knowlegde (OK, if you have lived here you know these simple things) but about understanding and replying in simple Thai.

I don't think anybody can be trained for the interview especially. You do need to know the basic things about Thailand, and you do need to understand and speak some basic Thai. If you've lived here long enough to want the PR, that should be no problem, really.

[SAMCHAROEN]

Hi to all,

Life just got a bit easier!

It seems that now we can do 90 day reporting not only in Changwattana but also at "mobile" immigration points.

Not only that, we can do other immigration stuff there as well.

For more details please read the topic http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/450329-mobile-immigrations-service-in-bangkok/

I know this may be a tad off the scope of this topic but I thought that the information will be useful to all of us.