Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[Mario2008]

A lot of information in below thread. Please ask questions there, to keep this one about PR only.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Story-Thai-Citizenship-Applicatio-t121353.html

guidelines: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a102367-Guidelines-for-Application-for-Natu.html

If married to a Thai you can already apply, but might lose some points because of not holding PR long enough.

[PH59]

Just back from CW. Nothing new to report. Answer is still applications for 2009 are at IM and have no idea when will be signed and sent back.

As always the PR section are friendlly, polite and effecient. all done in 10 mins with a smile

[Helvetica]

Once we have the PR, is there any difference when renewing the Work Permit, apart from a few different fields to fill on the renewal form?

Like many on this Forum, I got my PR last November, after a long 5-year wait during which I had to renew my WP every 6 months, recently with a compulsory medical check-up every time. I have not renewed my WP since, as it's still good until May 2013. So this will be my first time with PR.

As we can now stay in Thailand indefinitely, for how long can we extend the WP? And do we still need that medical check-up?

[stbkk]

You definitely need the medical check still.

I renewed my WP in January for the first time after getting my PR, and it was required.

[dinga]

Once we have the PR, is there any difference when renewing the Work Permit, apart from a few different fields to fill on the renewal form? Like many on this Forum, I got my PR last November, after a long 5-year wait during which I had to renew my WP every 6 months, recently with a compulsory medical check-up every time. I have not renewed my WP since, as it's still good until May 2013. So this will be my first time with PR. As we can now stay in Thailand indefinitely, for how long can we extend the WP? And do we still need that medical check-up?

I was likewise in the Class of 2008 and also rec'd PR late last year. My office just renewed my Work Permit for another 2 years - and they needed to present (a) medical certificate; ( Passport; © Work Permit; (d) Residence Book; (e) Police Registration Book..

[Helvetica]

Thank you stbkk and dinga for your answers. All is clear!

[tombkk]

In other countries (such as the EU, the US, or Lao PDR) you don't need a work permit any more once you have the PR. Unrelated to Thailand, just saying.

[Dork]

In other countries (such as the EU, the US, or Lao PDR) you don't need a work permit any more once you have the PR. Unrelated to Thailand, just saying.

Or be regularly tested for Syphilis.

[Arkady]

Once we have the PR, is there any difference when renewing the Work Permit, apart from a few different fields to fill on the renewal form? Like many on this Forum, I got my PR last November, after a long 5-year wait during which I had to renew my WP every 6 months, recently with a compulsory medical check-up every time. I have not renewed my WP since, as it's still good until May 2013. So this will be my first time with PR. As we can now stay in Thailand indefinitely, for how long can we extend the WP? And do we still need that medical check-up?

Unfortunately there is no longer any special treatment for PR holders when it comes to work permits. Until recently we didn't need any Thai employees but now we need four, the same as anyone else. We are also subject to the Labour Ministry new principle of first priority for Thais which means it is necessary to explain in the forms why a Thai can't do the job, which was not the case before.

If you have a Thai spouse your employer's capital requirement is reduced by 50% to THB 1 million, regardless of whether you have PR or not.

Usable life of work permit depends on your company's size and your salary, not your immigration status. Large company and/or large salary = 2 year WP. Large salary means around THB 1 million a month but I don't know about company size factor. All others with PR will get a 1 year WP.

The whole thing makes no sense at all. Charge someone a lot of cash for PR but don't give them the right to work and give them no right to work, even with a WP, if a Thai is qualified and available to do the job. Pitiful.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Arkady

[asiaexpat]

Are there many people that make 1 million TB a Month in Thailand, or did you mean a year? Very few people in any country would be considered High Salary if that is so.

[GarryP]

I think, perhaps, that means a monthly payroll of the company of 1 million Baht as opposed to the WP holder having a salary of such amount.

Edited March 21, 2013 by GarryP

[Mario2008]

I think it means the company must have a capital of at least 1 million baht, not an income or payroll.

[Helvetica]

Once we have the PR, is there any difference when renewing the Work Permit, apart from a few different fields to fill on the renewal form? Like many on this Forum, I got my PR last November, after a long 5-year wait during which I had to renew my WP every 6 months, recently with a compulsory medical check-up every time. I have not renewed my WP since, as it's still good until May 2013. So this will be my first time with PR. As we can now stay in Thailand indefinitely, for how long can we extend the WP? And do we still need that medical check-up?

Unfortunately there is no longer any special treatment for PR holders when it comes to work permits. Until recently we didn't need any Thai employees but now we need four, the same as anyone else. We are also subject to the Labour Ministry new principle of first priority for Thais which means it is necessary to explain in the forms why a Thai can't do the job, which was not the case before.

If you have a Thai spouse your employer's capital requirement is reduced by 50% to THB 1 million, regardless of whether you have PR or not.

Usable life of work permit depends on your company's size and your salary, not your immigration status. Large company and/or large salary = 2 year WP. Large salary means around THB 1 million a month but I don't know about company size factor. All others with PR will get a 1 year WP.

The whole thing makes no sense at all. Charge someone a lot of cash for PR but don't give them the right to work and give them no right to work, even with a WP, if a Thai is qualified and available to do the job. Pitiful.

Thank you Arkady. Your input is always very useful.

All this doesn't make sense indeed and is pitiful. Having the PR was supposed to make things easier, but now it looks like it's getting more and more complicated. I wonder what would happen if we would not come up to the WP requirements anymore (which is not my case) in terms of salary, company size or health. Suppose you had TB or Syphilis. Instead of getting treated (possibly on account of the Social Security to which we contribute), would our WP be canceled? Then if you were the owner of a company, would you have to close it, lay off your staff?

Incidentally, does anybody know what is the minimum salary for PR holders required for keeping the WP?

[ubonjoe]

There is no minimum salary requirement for work permits. It does not matter if you are on PR, visas or extensions. There is only a minimum salary for getting an extension of stay based upon working.

[Time Traveller]

Once we have the PR, is there any difference when renewing the Work Permit, apart from a few different fields to fill on the renewal form? Like many on this Forum, I got my PR last November, after a long 5-year wait during which I had to renew my WP every 6 months, recently with a compulsory medical check-up every time. I have not renewed my WP since, as it's still good until May 2013. So this will be my first time with PR. As we can now stay in Thailand indefinitely, for how long can we extend the WP? And do we still need that medical check-up?

Unfortunately there is no longer any special treatment for PR holders when it comes to work permits. Until recently we didn't need any Thai employees but now we need four, the same as anyone else. We are also subject to the Labour Ministry new principle of first priority for Thais which means it is necessary to explain in the forms why a Thai can't do the job, which was not the case before.

If you have a Thai spouse your employer's capital requirement is reduced by 50% to THB 1 million, regardless of whether you have PR or not.

Usable life of work permit depends on your company's size and your salary, not your immigration status. Large company and/or large salary = 2 year WP. Large salary means around THB 1 million a month but I don't know about company size factor. All others with PR will get a 1 year WP.

The whole thing makes no sense at all. Charge someone a lot of cash for PR but don't give them the right to work and give them no right to work, even with a WP, if a Thai is qualified and available to do the job. Pitiful.

Arkady, have you changed your opinion? This has been argued before, but Thai PR (despite it's comparative high cost) was never something that offered work rights.

[asiaexpat]

I think it means the company must have a capital of at least 1 million baht, not an income or payroll.

Thats what I would expect also. Makes more sense. Thanks for the input.

[Arkady]

I think it means the company must have a capital of at least 1 million baht, not an income or payroll.

Two things here: 1) the company needs paid-up capital of 1 million baht, if the foreign employee has a Thai spouse, or 2 million baht, if he doesn't. 2) the second mention of 1 million baht was to do with the conditions for getting a 2 year WP, rather than a 1 year one.

I recently went to the DoE to make enquiries face to face because the answers I had been given over the phone made no sense.

Re Thai employees. Even if you have PR, they will need to see evidence that you have at least 4 Thai employees enrolled in the Social Security Fund. I don't think they have a 3 month seasoning requirement like Immigration has for this, just that they are enrolled. Previously no Thai employees were required, as the Labour Ministry used to recognise the principle that PRs had the right to work subject to meeting minimum conditions, e.g. not working in restricted occupations. Now they are even subject to the ministry's "Thai first" policy.

My other query was about the conditions for a 2 year WP. The law doesn't specify any but the Labour Ministry has produced some non-transparent internal regulations which they decline to show anyone. At the first the official would only tell me that you need to work for a large company or earn a large salary. When I asked for more detail he wouldn't qualify what they regarded as a large company but I guess it is probably at least 300 million baht paid-up capital like the qualification for using the one stop service. Public limited companies all automatically qualify, as far as I know. On salary I said, "Do you mean like over 100k a month?", to which he replied, "Definitely not that little. I mean around 1 million baht a month". It is clear that they don't want to issue these 2 year WPs and look for any excuse not to. Why this is the case, is a complete mystery to me. Again the official confirmed that having PR makes no difference to the consideration to grant a 2 year WP.

As far as the DoE is concerned the only significance of PR is now that holders of it have to submit more documents to them than those without PR. This is a far cry from when PR meant the automatic right to work. When they introduced WPs in the early 70s all PRs in work at the time were allowed to register for life time WPs, as long as they maintained the same profession. Now PR is totally degraded and meaningless as far as working is concerned.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Arkady

[samran]

Once we have the PR, is there any difference when renewing the Work Permit, apart from a few different fields to fill on the renewal form? Like many on this Forum, I got my PR last November, after a long 5-year wait during which I had to renew my WP every 6 months, recently with a compulsory medical check-up every time. I have not renewed my WP since, as it's still good until May 2013. So this will be my first time with PR. As we can now stay in Thailand indefinitely, for how long can we extend the WP? And do we still need that medical check-up?

Unfortunately there is no longer any special treatment for PR holders when it comes to work permits. Until recently we didn't need any Thai employees but now we need four, the same as anyone else. We are also subject to the Labour Ministry new principle of first priority for Thais which means it is necessary to explain in the forms why a Thai can't do the job, which was not the case before.

If you have a Thai spouse your employer's capital requirement is reduced by 50% to THB 1 million, regardless of whether you have PR or not.

Usable life of work permit depends on your company's size and your salary, not your immigration status. Large company and/or large salary = 2 year WP. Large salary means around THB 1 million a month but I don't know about company size factor. All others with PR will get a 1 year WP.

The whole thing makes no sense at all. Charge someone a lot of cash for PR but don't give them the right to work and give them no right to work, even with a WP, if a Thai is qualified and available to do the job. Pitiful.

When did these changes all happen?

[Arkady]

Once we have the PR, is there any difference when renewing the Work Permit, apart from a few different fields to fill on the renewal form? Like many on this Forum, I got my PR last November, after a long 5-year wait during which I had to renew my WP every 6 months, recently with a compulsory medical check-up every time. I have not renewed my WP since, as it's still good until May 2013. So this will be my first time with PR. As we can now stay in Thailand indefinitely, for how long can we extend the WP? And do we still need that medical check-up?

Unfortunately there is no longer any special treatment for PR holders when it comes to work permits. Until recently we didn't need any Thai employees but now we need four, the same as anyone else. We are also subject to the Labour Ministry new principle of first priority for Thais which means it is necessary to explain in the forms why a Thai can't do the job, which was not the case before.

If you have a Thai spouse your employer's capital requirement is reduced by 50% to THB 1 million, regardless of whether you have PR or not.

Usable life of work permit depends on your company's size and your salary, not your immigration status. Large company and/or large salary = 2 year WP. Large salary means around THB 1 million a month but I don't know about company size factor. All others with PR will get a 1 year WP.

The whole thing makes no sense at all. Charge someone a lot of cash for PR but don't give them the right to work and give them no right to work, even with a WP, if a Thai is qualified and available to do the job. Pitiful.

When did these changes all happen?

Re the elimination of the WP privileges for PRs, 2011 I think. There was a thread posted at the time with new forms and guidelines for WPs, including stricter guidelines on qualifications which was what got most attention. This was one of the changes slipped in unnoticed at the same time.

Re 2 year WPs. The 2008 Working of Aliens Act increased the maximum term of a WP from 1 year to 2 years without adding any conditions. The undisclosed conditions were added slyly by the ministry bureaucrats for no apparent reason. I applied for one in late 2008 and was told I should be able to get one since I had PR but was, in fact, rejected with no reason given - just, "It was the puu yais' decision". In 2009 I moved to a large company and was told at the DoE I wouldn't get it but, in fact, did get it with no problem and have had it renewed for another two years once. It seems to be nonsense.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Arkady

[samran]

Thanks for that Arkady. I guess PR is now even more of a holding pattern for citizenship given these 'new' rules. Any gossip as to why they slipped them in. Seems rather regressive.

[Arkady]

Once we have the PR, is there any difference when renewing the Work Permit, apart from a few different fields to fill on the renewal form? Like many on this Forum, I got my PR last November, after a long 5-year wait during which I had to renew my WP every 6 months, recently with a compulsory medical check-up every time. I have not renewed my WP since, as it's still good until May 2013. So this will be my first time with PR. As we can now stay in Thailand indefinitely, for how long can we extend the WP? And do we still need that medical check-up?

Unfortunately there is no longer any special treatment for PR holders when it comes to work permits. Until recently we didn't need any Thai employees but now we need four, the same as anyone else. We are also subject to the Labour Ministry new principle of first priority for Thais which means it is necessary to explain in the forms why a Thai can't do the job, which was not the case before.

If you have a Thai spouse your employer's capital requirement is reduced by 50% to THB 1 million, regardless of whether you have PR or not.

Usable life of work permit depends on your company's size and your salary, not your immigration status. Large company and/or large salary = 2 year WP. Large salary means around THB 1 million a month but I don't know about company size factor. All others with PR will get a 1 year WP.

The whole thing makes no sense at all. Charge someone a lot of cash for PR but don't give them the right to work and give them no right to work, even with a WP, if a Thai is qualified and available to do the job. Pitiful.

Arkady, have you changed your opinion? This has been argued before, but Thai PR (despite it's comparative high cost) was never something that offered work rights.

PR which has been offered since the first Immigration Act of 1927 did in fact give the right to work before the first Working of Aliens Act came in in the early 70s. You could either work on a 3 month business visa or apply for PR which was fairly easy and quick in those days, although subject since the early 50s to the 100 per nationality annual quota that was only intended to inconvenience Chinese immigrants. In fact in the pre-quota days PR was originally granted at the quayside to Chinese coolies arriving as bonded labour, who could convince the Immigration officer they had a trade and were physically fit to work.

I haven't changed my opinion. I am still happy with PR status, even though I would be happier still, if it also either conveyed an automatic right to work or easier conditions for WPs, as it used to. I would still apply for PR again, even at today's prices. However, I think I would probably apply for citizenship instead, if I were married to a Thai. The waiting time for both seems to have been stretched out a lot and there is more individual variance in the waiting time for citizenshp. However, PR is still likely to take less time. The last lot of PR approvals took a maximum of 5 years, whereas many applicants for citizenship are waiting 5 years just for the interview nowadays, although a favoured few may get their ID card in one year only.

[Arkady]

Thanks for that Arkady. I guess PR is now even more of a holding pattern for citizenship given these 'new' rules. Any gossip as to why they slipped them in. Seems rather regressive.

I think it was done thoughtlessly. My understanding is that Immigration put pressure on the Labour ministry to close the loophole whereby people who don't have PR could avoid the 4 Thai employee rule by not getting 1 year extensions on NON-IMM B visas by getting a new one every 3 months from a Thai consulate abroad. Now that the MoFA has cracked down on the issuance of multiple entry NON-IMM B visas by Thai consulates in the region, the move by the Labour Ministry seems redundant but has of course stuck. Previously the 4 employee rule was only an Immigration rule and there was no required number of Thai employees for a WP but it was assumed that foreign employees would want to get a 1 year extension. I don't think anyone at the Labour Ministry gave much thought to the effects on PRs who might have their own or their wives' small businesses, since we are neither numerous nor vocal.

The other thing is that the new regulations introduced the concept of priority for Thai workers and the requirement to explain why a foreigner was necessary for the job, which is admittedly not unreasonable in respect of non-PRs and is quite normal in many countries. There again there was probably no thought given to PRs or whether, having been granted the right to live for ever in Thailand, they should also have a right to work at a job that is not a restricted occupation. Or perhaps they just think it is OK to put them through hoops for several years, then gouge them for a large amount of cash before forcing them to return to their own countries because a Thai is able to do their job. Funnily enough there are few jobs that could not be done by a Thai, except jobs managing small family companies which by definition are managed by the family and don't otherwise exist.

[tombkk]

I am still happy to have the PR, even though it does not help with the WP. At least I don't have to worry about staying in Thailand when I lose my job.

That said, I would be even happier if a PR meant that no WP is needed and I could own a company - such as a the PR in Laos. Which makes sense, actually.

[jayboy]

I am still happy to have the PR, even though it does not help with the WP. At least I don't have to worry about staying in Thailand when I lose my job.

That said, I would be even happier if a PR meant that no WP is needed and I could own a company - such as a the PR in Laos. Which makes sense, actually.

Hold on.Do we actually know that having PR doesn't help with WP at all?Clearly as Arkady has explained it doesn't now in terms of functioning as a company or in a self employed capacity.But it may well make the process somewhat easier for employees who hold PR.

[Arkady]

I am still happy to have the PR, even though it does not help with the WP. At least I don't have to worry about staying in Thailand when I lose my job.

That said, I would be even happier if a PR meant that no WP is needed and I could own a company - such as a the PR in Laos. Which makes sense, actually.

Hold on.Do we actually know that having PR doesn't help with WP at all?Clearly as Arkady has explained it doesn't now in terms of functioning as a company or in a self employed capacity.But it may well make the process somewhat easier for employees who hold PR.

What is easier is that you don't have to jump through Immigration's hoops set for one year extensions based on having a WP and that is still worth a lot. Immigration always thought the Labour Ministry was too soft on foreigners and set its own shadow conditions for WPs through the one year extension.

The attitude to PRs in this respect remains highly anacronistic. It is still based on the pre-WW2 thinking that jobs needed to be reserved for Thais when there were thousands and thousands of Chinese workers in Thailand with PR and a reputation for hard work. WPs only came in in the 70s but the lists of reserved occupations for Thais came in much earlier, in the 20s or 30s. Now that there are so few PRs and it is so difficult to obtain, this attitude needs to be changed. The media likes to trumpet that Thailand is preparing for the AEC and free movement of labour but this is way out of line with happens in most of the rest of ASEAN. Perhaps it is time for the Foreign Chambers to take up this issue again. In the past they made representations to the government proposing a proper ID card for PRs instead of the ancient reddish brown books (and not the pink thing for wretched minorities inhumanly banned from leaving their districts) that would also give the right to work in unreserved occupations. On that basis they could probably whack up the fees for PR even more to include the net present value of a the cost of WPs till retirement. LoL.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Arkady

[Dork]

I am still happy to have the PR, even though it does not help with the WP. At least I don't have to worry about staying in Thailand when I lose my job.

That said, I would be even happier if a PR meant that no WP is needed and I could own a company - such as a the PR in Laos. Which makes sense, actually.

Hold on.Do we actually know that having PR doesn't help with WP at all?Clearly as Arkady has explained it doesn't now in terms of functioning as a company or in a self employed capacity.But it may well make the process somewhat easier for employees who hold PR.

What is easier is that you don't have to jump through Immigration's hoops set for one year extensions based on having a WP and that is still worth a lot. Immigration always thought the Labour Ministry was too soft on foreigners and set its own shadow conditions for WPs through the one year extension.

Unfortunately it seems that for me even this slight benefit is denied. My company employs 3 foreigners including myself and a number of Thai's. Since our business is 100% export, the labour department waives the normal 4 to 1 Thai/foreign requirement because we easily qualify under the exporters concession of 1 WP for each THB3M of foreign exchange earned. It has been this way for many years.

However, since receiving PR immigration have suddenly decided that they will not waive the 4/1 requirement and that even though I personally have no involvement with them at all, the first foreigner that they will count is me. So 3 x WP's equals minimum 12 Thai employees.

This wouldn't matter to a company where the PR holder was the only foreigner or if the PR holder wasn't a Shareholder or Director because immigration wouldn't even know. But in my case, despite selling me PR, it seems immigration don't quite want to let me get away.

[NewlyMintedThai]

At this point, I have to say that PR's main value is as a stepping stone to citizenship.

[tamvine]

At this point, I have to say that PR's main value is as a stepping stone to citizenship.

While this is true specially for men, there are other ways to get citizenship as well. Mainly for me and my understanding PR works as a hassle free way to live life long in Thailand. If you are not serious about Nationality you can live whole life w/o any worries for the VISA extensions. However for nationality Thai Govt. or policy makers have put WP as necessary so as to avoid people taking advantage of only PR a route to Nationality.

[Arkady]

I am still happy to have the PR, even though it does not help with the WP. At least I don't have to worry about staying in Thailand when I lose my job.

That said, I would be even happier if a PR meant that no WP is needed and I could own a company - such as a the PR in Laos. Which makes sense, actually.

Hold on.Do we actually know that having PR doesn't help with WP at all?Clearly as Arkady has explained it doesn't now in terms of functioning as a company or in a self employed capacity.But it may well make the process somewhat easier for employees who hold PR.

What is easier is that you don't have to jump through Immigration's hoops set for one year extensions based on having a WP and that is still worth a lot. Immigration always thought the Labour Ministry was too soft on foreigners and set its own shadow conditions for WPs through the one year extension.

Unfortunately it seems that for me even this slight benefit is denied. My company employs 3 foreigners including myself and a number of Thai's. Since our business is 100% export, the labour department waives the normal 4 to 1 Thai/foreign requirement because we easily qualify under the exporters concession of 1 WP for each THB3M of foreign exchange earned. It has been this way for many years.

However, since receiving PR immigration have suddenly decided that they will not waive the 4/1 requirement and that even though I personally have no involvement with them at all, the first foreigner that they will count is me. So 3 x WP's equals minimum 12 Thai employees.

This wouldn't matter to a company where the PR holder was the only foreigner or if the PR holder wasn't a Shareholder or Director because immigration wouldn't even know. But in my case, despite selling me PR, it seems immigration don't quite want to let me get away.

A good example of the arbitrary and capricious nature of decisions by Immigration that are not subject to any judicial process or any meaningful right of appeal. It is not enough that they have the power to shape the law according to the whims of senior officers through National Police Orders that are not subject to scrutiny by Parliament but individual officers at the working level are permitted to make their own arbitrary interpretations of these regulations that can be devastating to those on the receiving end as well as their dependents who may be Thai. In this case an officer seems to have unilaterally cancelled national regulations that are aimed at promoting exports.

[NewlyMintedThai]

There is always the Administrative Court if a serious wrong has been committed.