Will booting out teachers without valid visas & work permits raise the standard?

[smurph]

Pretty decent article article here on the ins and outs of the visa crackdown and how it affects teachers and overall standards of English education in Thailand.

 

My take: Removing the bureaucratic costs for schools to hire foreign teachers would be a big step forward. Would solve the visa/WP issue for many people, and maybe even allow schools to pay a little bit more and attract potentially better English-speaking staff.

 

http://asiancorrespondent.com/125194/thailand-visa-teach-english/

 

[isawasnake]

Of course it would help. How could it not help.

 

The thing that would happen is they will have to start raising their salaries. Qualified people will not work for 6 dollars an hour no matter how many ill informed people come out of the woodwork to defend that rate. Once they do that, standards will go up, a little. 

[Scott]

A very big problem is that currently there is no government, per se.   The current situation doesn't leave a lot of room to know who to talk to about the existing problem.   There is little direction as to what Immigration is doing in relation to other ministries, such as the Ministry of Education.  

 

Thailand, like many tropical countries, is not known for planning and forward thinking to begin with.  

 

I think the situation will get much worse before it gets better.  

[Scott]

As far as working illegally is concerned, I think that the majority of the people working in Education are in the country legally, however, they may not have the correct visa or a work permit.   I know of numerous people on education visas who work, on retirement visas who work and on non-immigrant o visas (without a work permit) who work.  

 

 

[Bernard Flint]

As far as working illegally is concerned, I think that the majority of the people working in Education are in the country legally, however, they may not have the correct visa or a work permit.   I know of numerous people on education visas who work, on retirement visas who work and on non-immigrant o visas (without a work permit) who work.  

 

 

 

That is why tighter controls are in operation, these illegal workers make it bad for everyone else

Edited July 29, 2014 by Bernard Flint

[Scott]

The people I am referring to are not the out/in, tourist visa crowd.   They are working illegally and they are unlikely to get caught.  

 

The current situation is thinning out the pool of applicants.   So, if a school interviewed 10 applicants and found 2 who were good, it is now more likely that they will interview 1 applicant and have to hire him/her, even if that person isn't very good.

 

 

[simon43]

I wonder if the current lack of government here, (and thus the ability to implement a faster, improved visa/WP procedure), will benefit schools in adjoining countries who want to hire foreign teachers.

 

AFAIK (AFAIRemember), both Myanmar and Cambodia have no WP process - the business visa is the WP, ('open' visa for Cambodia, invitation letter from the school for Myanmar).  Laos does have a WP requirement.  I understand that the situation in Vietnam is also getting stricter now.

 

Although I have worked on/off as a teacher for quite a few years, I have never worked in Thailand as such, other than on a volunteer basis, (long-term, teaching volunteer without WP, totally illegal...).

 

For both visa and WP reasons, I much prefer to work in Myanmar or Cambodia, where I don't have to waste time or my money to obtain these documents.
 

[isawasnake]

A very big problem is that currently there is no government, per se.   The current situation doesn't leave a lot of room to know who to talk to about the existing problem.   There is little direction as to what Immigration is doing in relation to other ministries, such as the Ministry of Education.  

 

Thailand, like many tropical countries, is not known for planning and forward thinking to begin with.  

 

I think the situation will get much worse before it gets better.  

I agree with you for the most part, but I just feel education here can't get much worse. We may go to rock bottom from the bottom, but I feel it can only get better from there with these more legitimate policies. With legitimacy comes better people, with better people comes pay raises, with pay raises come better quality. It will be a slow climb to mediocrity imo for Thailand (let's face it, they are not going to be great at education anytime soon, if ever), but better than the status quo. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by isawasnake

[Franky Bear]

This might not sit well but i am all for much stronger laws on "teachers"

Do you employ an electrician in your home that is qualified with the right papers, or do you get a guy in the pub that "knows a bit" about electricity? 

[isawasnake]

I actually feel sorry for the qualified teachers that will be potentially coming here in the future, and walking into these classrooms and having to really bear down and tame the beast that has been let run wild for decades. It will not be a fun job to turn these classes into real viable classroom environments. If it is going to get better, there is going to have to be some good people in there. Better people than me that is for sure, I could never deal with it. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by isawasnake

[siampolee]

Well in my view those who are suffering as a result of the law being applied will in truth not be missed for the quality of the educational input they offered.

 

Many non native speakers of English in a multitude of mangled accents will now due to the clamp down on visa runs be obliged to seek pastures new.

 

Whether or not the qualifications of those remaining teachers along with their standards of remuneration and conditions actually improves regarding employment in the future improve remains to be seen.

 

I must say though ''that going by  characters I have met over the years indeed the removal-of the ''visa runner '' is in the main a fine action.''

[Scott]

Siampolee, you do realize that many of the non-native speakers with the 'mangled' accents are the ones who are eligible to remain here?  

 

Many of these people do have degrees, including degrees in education, they are excellent teachers, but their level of English may leave a lot to be desired.   We hire many non-native English speakers as subject teachers -- math, science, social studies, PE, Health Education etc..  When they submit a written test, it is pretty clear that some are sorely lacking in English language skills. 

 

Countries, including Thailand, have every right to set criteria for who they want living/working in their country.   They do, however, need to think about the consequences.

 

The overall problem with education in Thailand is not due to the standard of English teachers and the overall standard will not be improved regardless of what rules they implement for foreigners in the country.   The education problem is a Thai problem and needs to be solved structurally.  

[casualbiker]

This might not sit well but i am all for much stronger laws on "teachers"

Do you employ an electrician in your home that is qualified with the right papers, or do you get a guy in the pub that "knows a bit" about electricity? 

Well. Best not get any electrical work done on your house here because many don't even "know a bit"

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Deacon Bell]

Simple.

 

 

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

 

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

 

Everybody wins.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Deacon Bell

[Franky Bear]

Simple.

 

 

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

 

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

 

Everybody wins.

NO NO NO!!!!

a 4 week course and then you're a teacher!!!


Have you any idea how stupid and wrong that is

[Deacon Bell]

A speaking and listening teacher.

 

I doubt it's that hard to learn how to do it. 120 hours seems about okay. :)

 

 

[casualbiker]

Simple.
 
 
Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.
 
Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.
 
Everybody wins.

NO NO NO!!!!

a 4 week course and then you're a teacher!!!


Have you any idea how stupid and wrong that is

Your missing the point of the situation. We are talking about TEFL conversation teachers. The Thai teachers teach grammar etc. The S+L teacher helps the students put that into practice. Many Thai teachers have poor spoken English comprehension and are unable / unwilling to do this. The only way students can speak and practice their skills is with a native or near native English speaker.
Thailand can insist on B'ed degrees but I doubt they will find many native or even near native speakers for the salary's offered and many / most schools do NOT have the resources to pay the required amount!

Indeed even if we are talking at subject level, say mathematics. Would you prefer a 4 year mathematics degree holder or a 5 year B'ed teaching your kids?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lostinisaan]

Simple.

 

 

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

 

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

 

Everybody wins.

 

 Nobody wins. It would be only more confusion. Could all native German speaking people "teach" Thai kids how to speak the German language?

 

     A guy from lower saxony, who'd hardly, or not understood by people who only speak the so called high German, without being high. OMG.

 

 

    Or a Swiss, an Austrian..etc...holy cow.Their mother tongue's also German...........

 

 

       There's more to teaching a language, than only being born in an English speaking country. 

 

 

      Teaching is the profession that creates all other occupations......................

Edited July 29, 2014 by lostinisaan

[schondie]

Until these WP and Teachers Licences regulations change the situation is getting worse rather than getting better. Schools in my area have started trying to find backpackers on tourist visas to fill the gap until they can find someone more permanent.

 

According to my wife there's already plans in motion to relax the requirement for a degree in education as many schools just can't find a NES after promising the parents that they'd have one.

[SNGLIFE]

Fact:  Thailand's historically relaxed policies for screening\hiring teachers.

 

Fact: Thailand is ranked #55 of 60 countries in English proficiency.

 

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Thailand-ranked-55th-in-English-proficiency-30220088.html

 

OP:  "Will booting out teachers without valid visas & work permits raise the standard?"

 

A:  "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."  -  Albert Einstein

 

[Globaleyes]

Indeed, if they balance the 'stick' of expulsion with the carrot of greater remuneration, things will get better.  The situation as it now is (and will be) means that it will not even be worthwhile paying for a TEFL to teach in Thailand with all the restrictions and hoops.

Thailand is, in all honesty (no pun intended), merely normalising it's border policies. But part of the reason we put up with an awful lot of crap here, was that they were easy going in other ways. Now that has changed, what is on the table for us?

I've just chosed to do a DELTA elsewhere because of the situation here - I'm not spending > $3000 in Thailand and worrying about getting back in the country! Someone else can have my money.

And if I were to decide to come back with my DELTA, I'd get what?
 

 

Of course it would help. How could it not help.

 

The thing that would happen is they will have to start raising their salaries. Qualified people will not work for 6 dollars an hour no matter how many ill informed people come out of the woodwork to defend that rate. Once they do that, standards will go up, a little. 

 

[kleelof]

I actually feel sorry for the qualified teachers that will be potentially coming here in the future, and walking into these classrooms and having to really bear down and tame the beast that has been let run wild for decades. It will not be a fun job to turn these classes into real viable classroom environments. If it is going to get better, there is going to have to be some good people in there. Better people than me that is for sure, I could never deal with it. 

It appears you may never have been a teacher.

The issues in the classrooms have absolutely nothing to do with the foreign teachers. It is the 'school culture'.

Students are not controlled by the schools. Even Thai teachers have to deal with talking students and students being rude to them.

A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves out of a job after students complain to the school that the teacher is too strict. Really, this is true. I've seen it happen on a number of occasions.

[bangkoklasse]

Siampolee, you do realize that many of the non-native speakers with the 'mangled' accents are the ones who are eligible to remain here?  

 

Many of these people do have degrees, including degrees in education, they are excellent teachers, but their level of English may leave a lot to be desired.   We hire many non-native English speakers as subject teachers -- math, science, social studies, PE, Health Education etc..  When they submit a written test, it is pretty clear that some are sorely lacking in English language skills. 

 

Countries, including Thailand, have every right to set criteria for who they want living/working in their country.   They do, however, need to think about the consequences.

 

The overall problem with education in Thailand is not due to the standard of English teachers and the overall standard will not be improved regardless of what rules they implement for foreigners in the country.   The education problem is a Thai problem and needs to be solved structurally.  

 

There are 50 other countries that mostly use non native English teachers. And it works great there, so why not in Thailand? What's so special about English teachers in Thailand? In my home country nearly every teacher in English, German, France, Chinese or any other language is a non native speaker.

[bangkoklasse]

Simple.

 

 

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

 

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

 

Everybody wins.

 

Please tell me what the non native English teachers win ?

[kleelof]

The quality of teachers will not improve because people teaching illegally are ejected from the country. The fact is, many of these people are good and effective teachers.

The only way Thailand will EVER have better teachers is to pay more. But it just can't. Not many people with the proper training as teachers want to come work here for $1000 a month. Besides, they have teaching careers back home.

However, Thailand is finding a way around this. More and more Filipinos are being hired to teach. They work for 70% the wage as Farang and will work all the days and hours a school wants without complaint.

I know Thais still, generally, want a white face in the classroom. But, when they have to choose between whatever and nothing, they will take the whatever.

[Utley]

Would you allow your child to learn German from a native speaking German with no college education who was in your country surreptitiously?

[kleelof]

Would you allow your child to learn German from a native speaking German with no college education who was in your country surreptitiously?

Sure, why not? You don't need a college education to speak German. How will a degree in engineering or IT make him teach German better?

 

I've worked with plenty of people with degrees who could not teach water to fall, let alone a disinterested Thai teen how to speak English.

[larsjohnsson]

Would you allow your child to learn German from a native speaking German with no college education who was in your country surreptitiously?

I would not. And the same goes for learning English

[SPALAX]

Well in my view those who are suffering as a result of the law being applied will in truth not be missed for the quality of the educational input they offered.

 

Many non native speakers of English in a multitude of mangled accents will now due to the clamp down on visa runs be obliged to seek pastures new.

 

Whether or not the qualifications of those remaining teachers along with their standards of remuneration and conditions actually improves regarding employment in the future improve remains to be seen.

 

I must say though ''that going by  characters I have met over the years indeed the removal-of the ''visa runner '' is in the main a fine action.''

 

I am a non native passport holder.

 

About the mangled accents, I have been meeting

since May 14/57:

 

Five american passport holders:

A fresh new guy from Hungary

A retired military man with afghan and iraki education, if you now what I mean.

A Guy from Germany

strange "american" accents

Two vikings (very good english)

 

An australian passport holder

"Actually I am an Ostrichian". He said. They don't raise ostriches in Austria, I wooul think.

 

Two British passport holders:

A nice fellow was from Scotland (I could understand about 50% my friend from Liverpool less than me

A nice fellow from nowhere in London with such a cockney accent that all other teachers were ashamed

 

The passport is not a qualification but a good support for selection by lazy and incompetent agents (mainly farang) that you have to add to a nice Khao San University degree.

 

 

 

 

[Bernard Flint]

 

I actually feel sorry for the qualified teachers that will be potentially coming here in the future, and walking into these classrooms and having to really bear down and tame the beast that has been let run wild for decades. It will not be a fun job to turn these classes into real viable classroom environments. If it is going to get better, there is going to have to be some good people in there. Better people than me that is for sure, I could never deal with it. 

It appears you may never have been a teacher.

The issues in the classrooms have absolutely nothing to do with the foreign teachers. It is the 'school culture'.

Students are not controlled by the schools. Even Thai teachers have to deal with talking students and students being rude to them.

A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves out of a job after students complain to the school that the teacher is too strict. Really, this is true. I've seen it happen on a number of occasions.

 

Sounds like the behaviour of many students in uk.