Anger mounts as Gaza toll rises

[Morch]

 

 

A lot of footage and reports are published on the net by IDF soldiers who are expressing their frustration and disagrement to their superiors/governement.

Why don't you provide a link to a credible source? Anyone can say anything on the Internet.

One of the best presentations :

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39261.htm

And another perspective to understand the global anger :

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/the-mengele-squad-1.316622

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

That's a clip from March 2014, hardly evidence of mounting anger and dissent in relation to the current fighting.

 

[Morch]

But why a Israel state should exist? The Palestinian state doesn't have any right to exist?
I mean before 1948 there was no Israel state... For 2000 years... So who give them the right? God?
And god allow them to kick out people who live there and kill them.
Nice God indeed

I know many Jewish people... All very nice and kind

what happening is a nonsense


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

Well, guess a UN resolution should be good enough, without getting into too much history.

The same UN resolution called for the creation of a Palestinian state as well - which the Palestinians themselves rejected.

The existence of Israel does not necessitate that there wouldn't be a Palestinian state and vice versa.

 

Before 1948 there was no state of Israel, and on the same note, no state of Palestine.

Both were announced at the same time.

 

Bringing God into this is not necessary as well. Messed enough as it is.
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

People seem to forget the reason why Hamas starting firing rockets into Israel (I'm not supporting Hamas but the innocents killed). Netanyahu used the kidnapping of three Jewish boys in Gaza to have a soft invasion to "look" for the boys which he claimed were kidnapped by Hamas. The poor boys were already dead which he knew as the murder was recorded via mobile phone. He then used a soft invasion to arrest hundreds of Palestinians, kill 11 Palestinians, and bulldoze the homes of those accused even though they hadn't been tried yet. Hamas, predictably started firing rockets after 2 years of relative peace which gave Bibi Netanyahu exactly what he wanted, and excuse for a full invasion to not wipe out Hamas. The Israeli government not only wants to rid Gaza of Hamas (which is a terrorist organization but duly elected as the government), but will do anything in it's power to either force the Palestinians out of the territories that have been pushed into or exterminate them. They make talk about a two state solution to keep the Americans happy but will never settle for a Palestinian state.

I didn't know they ever stopped firing rockets.
Yep.....I'm American.....retired USAF......I even went as far to offically offer my skills as a Pilot to Israel....hope they call me.......I'm ready to "GET SOME"
 

 
You'd fight under the flag of another country?

He will change his mind. I knew that IAF is using US aicraft (F-16+Apache) but I didn't knew that US pilots would engage...

Turns out that striking UN buildings, schools, hospitals, markets and ambulances with Israeli F-16's will be more and more difficult.

A F-16 has apperently been shot down by a portable SAM (surface to air missile).

http://en.shafaqna.com/topnews/item/30430-israeli-f16-hit-by-surface-to-air-missile-over-gaza-hamas-claims.html

Again, not really good for Israeli public opinion if you're twisted into the fight between David and Goliath...




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

No confirmation for that hit, and certainly no aircraft was shot down.
 

[Morch]

 

This thread is revealing.  The two sides tell a lot about their causes.  The pro-Israel supporters maintain a fairly calm and reasoned tone, while the pro-Hamas posters are rabid, frothing, and fill their posts with obscenities and shouts.  Now, let me say that Israel often irritates me and a lot of Israelis I meet are sullen, suspicious, and obnoxious.  A lot of Arabs I meet are friendlier and even more hospitable.  BUT the Israelis are in the right, here. Stop the rockets and stop the war.  That was possible until the tunnels were used for terror attacks. This thread, filled with such outright anti-Semitic venom and hatred on the part of the pro-Hamas side, really does verge on being a hate sheet at times.  I don't think I could stand to be around people so obsessively hate-filled.  Like I said, a revealing thread about the two sides.  

 

I'm not sure posters are "pro-Hamas" or anti-Semitic, they're simply appalled at the death toll and suffering of people, particularly the children of Gaza. Although Hamas are equally to blame for this ongoing horror, if it's continuation by Israel is to destroy Hamas tunnels may I suggest excavators and foam concrete as a method rather than shelling, air strikes and snipers?

 

 

That's pretty much how they go about the tunnels - heavy mechanical equipment and troops going down to place charges.

At the same time there's fighting going on, not as if the Hamas just lets the IDF go about dismantling their precious tunnels.

The shelling, air strikes and the rest are not usually used as far as the tunnels are concerned.
 

[Morch]

 

 

guess who supplies the bombs to Israel? and guess who gives Israel all the support they need to be a brutal terrorist state? who is the ultimate terrorist in all this?

 

The USA.
 

 

I forgot to mention that. While we try to criticize Russia over Ukraine the jolly old USA is making and selling the weapons that have killed over 1400 people in Gaza

.

And it is not just the USA.

 

 

Data published in a new report from the House of Commons in London states the value of all British military exports to Israel currently being processed comes to £7.9 billion ($12.1 billion).

This data was supplied by Vince Cable, Britain’s business secretary, who oversees the weapons trade.

 

 

The UK figures seem quite high compared with total amount of Israel's military spending.

Would suggest a major battle platform sale - as far as I am aware there are none in service with the IDF.
 

[simple1]

YAY!!!!

 

New Gaza humanitarian truce 'agreed by Israel and Hamas'

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/28596609

 

At the same time US has approved access to ammunition supplies stored by the US on the behalf of Israel. Until now the US$1 billion ammunition supplies located on Israeli territory has been "little known". In parallel, as we all know, US has military bases located on the territory of Arab dictatorships (who support Islamic extremists) together with logistics and training support in the USA 'strategic interest'; strange world...

 

http://m.smh.com.au/world/us-restocks-israel-with-ammunition-as-it-condemns-attack-on-united-nations-school-20140731-zyv3w.html

[Morch]

 

YAY!!!!

 

New Gaza humanitarian truce 'agreed by Israel and Hamas'

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/28596609

 

At the same time US has approved access to ammunition supplies stored by the US on the behalf of Israel. Until now the US$1 billion ammunition supplies located on Israeli territory has been "little known". In parallel, as we all know, US has military bases located on the territory of Arab dictatorships (who support Islamic extremists) together with logistics and training support in the USA 'strategic interest'; strange world...

 

http://m.smh.com.au/world/us-restocks-israel-with-ammunition-as-it-condemns-attack-on-united-nations-school-20140731-zyv3w.html

 

 

Little known how?

 

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/u-s-to-store-800m-in-military-gear-in-israel-1.261162

(article is from 2010, earlier stories about this since around the first Gulf War, if memory serves).

[tpazzi]

The Israeli government not only wants to rid Gaza of Hamas (which is a terrorist organization but duly elected as the government), but will do anything in it's power to either force the Palestinians out of the territories that have been pushed into or exterminate them. They make talk about a two state solution to keep the Americans happy but will never settle for a Palestinian state.

 

 

I think you are spot on.  

 

Here's an Op Ed from earlier this week by Moshe Feiglin, the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset (Israeli Parliament).   He is giving voice to the sentiments of many in Israel who want the Gaza Strip land for further expansion.  As he blatantly states, they need to "eliminate" (his word, not mine) the Palestinians who are currently there.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326#.U9ia-_ldVyQ   

 

He lays out seven steps to get there - "Ultimatum - Attack - Siege - Defense - Conquer - Elimination - Sovereignty"      

 

You can try to brush it off as just one man's opinion, but the permanence of the Israeli settlements outside the 1967 boundaries has quite a bit of traction both in the Israeli power circles and in the general population.  In a 2011 survey, less than half  the Israelis polled wanted to see Israeli pull back to the 1967 borders to secure a peace treaty.  

 

If you listen to Naftali Bennett, the #3 Minister in Netanyahu's coalition government,  he's quite unabashed about wanting the other Arab states to absorb the Palestinian population and leave the historical lands to Israel.  

 

-tom

 

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by tpazzi

[Ulysses G.]

You can try to brush it off as just one man's opinion

Mostly because it IS just one man's opinion. There are nut jobs in every country and in every political body, but luckily - very few people listen to them.

[dexterm]

 

 

 

People seem to forget the reason why Hamas starting firing rockets into Israel 

 

 

What a load of nonsense. Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel.. 

 

 

LoL @ UG using images sourced directly from the IDF Spokeperson's twitter!

 

Why don't you show the number of deaths from these rocket attacks and then tell me if 5000 dead and injured innocent civilians (oh wait i forgot you ascribe to the OBL school of thought that there are no innocents) is a proportional response?

 

Here I'll post it for you;

2007 - 2807 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2008 - 3716 rocket attacks, 8 killed.

2009 - 858 rocket attacks, 0 killed.

2010 - 365 rocket attacks, 1 killed.

Iron Dome is installed

2011 - 680 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2012 - 2273 rocket attacks, 6 killed.

2013 - 44 rocket attacks (what?), 0 killed

2014 - 705 rocket attacks, 1 killed

 

 

I do not think that the claim said anything about high casualty figures, but about rockets launched.

Nice deflection all the same.

 

Other than saying Israel's current response is not proportional - what would you consider to be a proportional response

from a military point of view?

 

While at it, why does it have to be in response rather than preemptive and why proportional?

 

 

 

I suggest you refresh your memory of events at the time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%9309)#Israeli_offensive

 

..almost a mirror image of the present Israeli invasion. There had been a lull in hostilities so much so that Condoleezza Rice congratulated Hamas on keeping the peace, until Israel repeatedly violated the ceasefire, trying to provoke a reaction from Hamas because there was an election due and Hamas bashing is always a vote winner.

 

Does the story sound familiar?

 

The increased rocket fire was a response to Israel’s increased aggression, just as it is now. 

[Ulysses G.]

But why a Israel state should exist? The Palestinian state doesn't have any right to exist?
I mean before 1948 there was no Israel state...

As has been pointed out over and over again, there has never been an independent Arab state called Palestine - ever. In 1947 both people had a chance for their own countries. The Jews accepted. The Arabs refused. The Palestinian state doesn't exist, because of their own foolish choices. 

[tpazzi]

LoL @ UG using images sourced directly from the IDF Spokeperson's twitter!

 

Why don't you show the number of deaths from these rocket attacks and then tell me if 5000 dead and injured innocent civilians (oh wait i forgot you ascribe to the OBL school of thought that there are no innocents) is a proportional response?

 

Here I'll post it for you;

2007 - 2807 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2008 - 3716 rocket attacks, 8 killed.

2009 - 858 rocket attacks, 0 killed.

2010 - 365 rocket attacks, 1 killed.

Iron Dome is installed

2011 - 680 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2012 - 2273 rocket attacks, 6 killed.

2013 - 44 rocket attacks (what?), 0 killed

2014 - 705 rocket attacks, 1 killed

 

 

By comparison:  

 

Israeli Traffic Fatalities by year:

 

2010 -     352

2011 -     398

2012  -    297

2013  -    303 

 

 

Maybe the IDF would be served targeting car makers.

[siampolee]

Ulysses G post # 193

 

Mostly because it IS just one man's opinion. There are nut jobs in every country and in every political body, but luckily - very few people listen to them. 

 

 

Mostly because it IS just the Zionists opinion. There are Zionist nut jobs in every country, every forum and in every political body, but sadly many people listen to them and are taken in in by their evil  xenophobic rhetoric.  

[dexterm]

 

But why a Israel state should exist? The Palestinian state doesn't have any right to exist?
I mean before 1948 there was no Israel state...

As has been pointed out over and over again, there has never been an independent Arab state called Palestine - ever. In 1947 both people had a chance for their own countries. The Jews accepted. The Arabs refused. The Palestinian state doesn't exist, because of their own foolish choices. 

 

 

I'd love to debate this with you, but when we have done so in the past it has proved to be off topic.

[tpazzi]

 

You can try to brush it off as just one man's opinion

Mostly because it IS just one man's opinion. There are nut jobs in every country and in every political body, but luckily - very few people listen to them.

 

 

So just to be clear, you are calling the Deputy Minister of the Israeli Parliament a "nut job"  (the position is elected by the plenum).   And then you suggest the idea they aren't listening to him.   And Naftali Bennett?   They aren't listening to him either?    (I've listened to him, he's pretty articulate - difficult not to listen to, actually.)

 

I just don't think you are familiar with the results of the current Israeli public opinion polls. 

 

 

 

Let me see if I can be more constructive to the on-going discussion here...  

 

In the Op-Ed, Feiglin suggests Israel should offer to compensate the Palestinians if they agree to leave Gaza.    He doesn't really answer the question where they would go and I don't think the amount he is suggesting is very attractive.  

 

I have to say my initial reaction was that this wouldn't be practical but on the other hand perhaps the Palestinians should be given opportunity to consider it.

 

But what do you think?    Should the U.S. pay the Gazians to leave?   Is this a good Idea or not?       

 

 

 

(And yes, I really mean the U.S. -  we are giving Israel $3.4Billion/year so let's be real about where the money  is coming from and our responsibility for what Israeli does with it).

 

 

-tom 

Edited August 1, 2014 by tpazzi

[johna]

 

'Terror tunnels', 'Rockets' 'wipe off map'

Perfectly good reasons for putting a stop to Hamas terrorism. Thanks for pointing them out.

 

No country on earth would allow a terrorist group to fire thousands of rockets at them, tunnel under their border and call for their destruction while targeting civilians on a regular basis. The civilian death toll is mostly on Hamas. 

 

The Israeli propaganda on Hamas rockets exposed

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

[Thorgal]

 

 

A lot of footage and reports are published on the net by IDF soldiers who are expressing their frustration and disagrement to their superiors/governement.

Why don't you provide a link to a credible source? Anyone can say anything on the Internet.

One of the best presentations :

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39261.htm

And another perspective to understand the global anger :

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/the-mengele-squad-1.316622

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand
 

 
That's a clip from March 2014, hardly evidence of mounting anger and dissent in relation to the current fighting.
 

Can you explain with your own words what is a Hasbara troll ?

Most TV members don't know why they receive silly replies...

Only a Jew can explain it to a non- Jew.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Edited August 1, 2014 by Thorgal

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

'Terror tunnels', 'Rockets' 'wipe off map'

Perfectly good reasons for putting a stop to Hamas terrorism. Thanks for pointing them out.

 

No country on earth would allow a terrorist group to fire thousands of rockets at them, tunnel under their border and call for their destruction while targeting civilians on a regular basis. The civilian death toll is mostly on Hamas. 

 

The Israeli propaganda on Hamas rockets exposed

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

 

 

Al Jazeera trying to claim that these thousands of rockets aren't all that bad. No other country in the world would put up with them and Israel is not going to either. At least there is one honest paragraph in that opinion piece. 

 

None of this is to suggest the rockets are just or harmless. They have killed an estimated 22 Israelis since 2004 and injured more, indiscriminately. There are reports of Israelis being treated for shock. The public sirens that signal incoming rockets and send people to bunkers disrupt daily life and cause great anxiety. 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

[dexterm]

 

 

 

'Terror tunnels', 'Rockets' 'wipe off map'

Perfectly good reasons for putting a stop to Hamas terrorism. Thanks for pointing them out.

 

No country on earth would allow a terrorist group to fire thousands of rockets at them, tunnel under their border and call for their destruction while targeting civilians on a regular basis. The civilian death toll is mostly on Hamas. 

 

The Israeli propaganda on Hamas rockets exposed

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

 

 

Al Jazeera trying to claim that these thousands of rockets aren't all that bad. No other country in the world would put up with them and Israel is not going to either. At least there is one honest paragraph in that opinion piece. 

 

None of this is to suggest the rockets are just or harmless. They have killed an estimated 22 Israelis since 2004 and injured more, indiscriminately. There are reports of Israelis being treated for shock. The public sirens that signal incoming rockets and send people to bunkers disrupt daily life and cause great anxiety. 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

 

 

No other country in the world expels its existing population then claims to be the victim when they retaliate

[kblaze]

 

And of course, the conflict started at June....there was nothing prior to this.

Israel carried out operations against Hamas in he West Bank in conjunction with the kidnapping.

Hamas launched rockets from Gaza in response, Israel retaliated with air strikes, Hamas increased rocket fire.

The ground move came after that.

 

 

 

Lets take a look at those "operations" again shall we?

 

Arrests of nearly 400 Palestinians with property and funds seized.

 

5 Palestinians killed in clashes provoked by the raids, some teens.

 

Think about that; 400 arrests. For one kidnapping.

 

The only way to explain it is either Israel has the WORST investigators in the world....or they were deliberately trying to rile people.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

People can have different opinions if Israel's boming of the Gaza strip is justified or not. But I think we all have to accept one historical fact: you cannot win the hearts of others with war but only with love, well sometimes with money too as did the US, but anyhow.... So in respect of this unfortunately neither the Israeli extremist government nor Hamas has done enough efforts, by faaaar not enough. If they continue like this there will be a conflict between them for another few centuries. Sad but true.

 

Personally I think that the side which has more power and had to endure less difficult times during let's say the last 40 years, so clearly Israelis jews, should do the first step. They are crazy fools thinking to be able to control the Palestinians with arms. How can they be so silly? If they do not know love so let them at least use the $ strategy of their ally the US.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

 

 

 

'Terror tunnels', 'Rockets' 'wipe off map'

Perfectly good reasons for putting a stop to Hamas terrorism. Thanks for pointing them out.

 

No country on earth would allow a terrorist group to fire thousands of rockets at them, tunnel under their border and call for their destruction while targeting civilians on a regular basis. The civilian death toll is mostly on Hamas. 

 

The Israeli propaganda on Hamas rockets exposed

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

 

 

Al Jazeera trying to claim that these thousands of rockets aren't all that bad. No other country in the world would put up with them and Israel is not going to either. At least there is one honest paragraph in that opinion piece. 

 

None of this is to suggest the rockets are just or harmless. They have killed an estimated 22 Israelis since 2004 and injured more, indiscriminately. There are reports of Israelis being treated for shock. The public sirens that signal incoming rockets and send people to bunkers disrupt daily life and cause great anxiety. 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

 

Ulysses G., you have so much anger in you, why you just don't start to choose the love option you will see that the anger in you will be reduced gradually. There is plenty of information in books and online. Give it a try!

[Ulysses G.]

Ulysses G., you have so much anger in you

I have read your posts. This is another case of the pot calling the kettle black. However, at least my posts are historically accurate. You can not justify the same reasoning.
 
Edited August 1, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[simple1]

 

 

YAY!!!!

 

New Gaza humanitarian truce 'agreed by Israel and Hamas'

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/28596609

 

At the same time US has approved access to ammunition supplies stored by the US on the behalf of Israel. Until now the US$1 billion ammunition supplies located on Israeli territory has been "little known". In parallel, as we all know, US has military bases located on the territory of Arab dictatorships (who support Islamic extremists) together with logistics and training support in the USA 'strategic interest'; strange world...

 

http://m.smh.com.au/world/us-restocks-israel-with-ammunition-as-it-condemns-attack-on-united-nations-school-20140731-zyv3w.html

 

 

Little known how?

 

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/u-s-to-store-800m-in-military-gear-in-israel-1.261162

(article is from 2010, earlier stories about this since around the first Gulf War, if memory serves).

 

 

Thanks, how about emailing the SMH journalist with the link, a good spanking would be in order. I wouldn't be surprised if a good spanking is in your mind, with some posters

 

I guess he was inferring 'little known' to the general public.
 

Edited August 1, 2014 by simple1

[Ulysses G.]

Personally I think that the side which has more power and had to endure less difficult times during let's say the last 40 years, so clearly Israelis jews, should do the first step.

The Israelis have already taken the "first step" and long ago. They have offered the Palestinian Arabs peace deals over and over again for the past 100 years, to settle the conflict, and the Arabs have refused every single one.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

The only way to explain it is either Israel has the WORST investigators in the world....or they were deliberately trying to rile people.

How about discouraging other Hamas terrorists from trying the same thing? That would be pretty obvious to most people.

[kblaze]

 

The only way to explain it is either Israel has the WORST investigators in the world....or they were deliberately trying to rile people.

How about discouraging other Hamas terrorists from trying the same thing? That would be pretty obvious to most people.

 

 

 

You don't deep down believe that right? 

 

Mass arrests = discouragement?

 

"Guys, they are arresting everyone...lets call off all future kidnappings..."

 

[Ulysses G.]

Does the FBI take it easy on the mafia, so they don't get their feathers ruffled or harass them as much as possible? They are both criminal organizations that murder innocent people. 

[chuckd]

Ulysses G., you have so much anger in you, why you just don't start to choose the love option you will see that the anger in you will be reduced gradually. There is plenty of information in books and online. Give it a try!

 

 

 

I've never heard of holding hands and singing "Kumbaya" around the campfire as being very effective when dealing with Islamic radicals.

 

I doubt seriously this "free love" approach will do it.

[Steely Dan]

But why a Israel state should exist? The Palestinian state doesn't have any right to exist?
I mean before 1948 there was no Israel state... For 2000 years... So who give them the right? God?
And god allow them to kick out people who live there and kill them.
Nice God indeed

I know many Jewish people... All very nice and kind

what happening is a nonsense


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 
Well, guess a UN resolution should be good enough, without getting into too much history.
The same UN resolution called for the creation of a Palestinian state as well - which the Palestinians themselves rejected.
The existence of Israel does not necessitate that there wouldn't be a Palestinian state and vice versa.
 
Before 1948 there was no state of Israel, and on the same note, no state of Palestine.
Both were announced at the same time.
 
Bringing God into this is not necessary as well. Messed enough as it is.
 

Keep up the good work Morch, you have far more patience than most in your voluntary role as an oracle for idiots. I wish the E.U or U.N would employ you, though if they did I doubt the quality of content you would receive would be much higher than that from some of our esteemed Thaivisa members.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand