Anger mounts as Gaza toll rises

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

 

 

What a load of nonsense. Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel.. 

 

 

LoL @ UG using images sourced directly from the IDF Spokeperson's twitter!

 

Why don't you show the number of deaths from these rocket attacks and then tell me if 5000 dead and injured innocent civilians (oh wait i forgot you ascribe to the OBL school of thought that there are no innocents) is a proportional response?

 

Here I'll post it for you;

2007 - 2807 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2008 - 3716 rocket attacks, 8 killed.

2009 - 858 rocket attacks, 0 killed.

2010 - 365 rocket attacks, 1 killed.

Iron Dome is installed

2011 - 680 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2012 - 2273 rocket attacks, 6 killed.

2013 - 44 rocket attacks (what?), 0 killed

2014 - 705 rocket attacks, 1 killed

 

 

I do not think that the claim said anything about high casualty figures, but about rockets launched.

Nice deflection all the same.

 

Other than saying Israel's current response is not proportional - what would you consider to be a proportional response

from a military point of view?

 

While at it, why does it have to be in response rather than preemptive and why proportional?

 

 

 

I suggest you refresh your memory of events at the time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%9309)#Israeli_offensive

 

..almost a mirror image of the present Israeli invasion. There had been a lull in hostilities so much so that Condoleezza Rice congratulated Hamas on keeping the peace, until Israel repeatedly violated the ceasefire, trying to provoke a reaction from Hamas because there was an election due and Hamas bashing is always a vote winner.

 

Does the story sound familiar?

 

The increased rocket fire was a response to Israel’s increased aggression, just as it is now. 

 

 

I suggest you stick with responding something relevant to my post and not just link a different issue which is

unrelated to the post.

 

In case you missed it - the claim was not to do with number of casualties on the Israeli side but with the number

of rockets launched.

 

And the perennial unanswered question - what would be considered a proportional military response to rockets

fired at Israel? (other question about the relevance of proportionality and response, but seeing as there's some

evident difficulty focusing here - maybe better to take it one at a time).
 

[Morch]

 

LoL @ UG using images sourced directly from the IDF Spokeperson's twitter!

 

Why don't you show the number of deaths from these rocket attacks and then tell me if 5000 dead and injured innocent civilians (oh wait i forgot you ascribe to the OBL school of thought that there are no innocents) is a proportional response?

 

Here I'll post it for you;

2007 - 2807 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2008 - 3716 rocket attacks, 8 killed.

2009 - 858 rocket attacks, 0 killed.

2010 - 365 rocket attacks, 1 killed.

Iron Dome is installed

2011 - 680 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2012 - 2273 rocket attacks, 6 killed.

2013 - 44 rocket attacks (what?), 0 killed

2014 - 705 rocket attacks, 1 killed

 

 

By comparison:  

 

Israeli Traffic Fatalities by year:

 

2010 -     352

2011 -     398

2012  -    297

2013  -    303 

 

 

Maybe the IDF would be served targeting car makers.

 

 

Maybe people should not make silly arguments.

Traffic accidents are not intentionally directed at people and they do not bring parts of the country to a hold.

 

On the same note someone could make the claim that there are more deaths from natural causes in Gaza so

they should make a fuss over more death when clashing with the IDF. Note that I do not make this claim - it

is just presented as a reflection of the silliness above.
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

Why don't you provide a link to a credible source? Anyone can say anything on the Internet.

One of the best presentations :

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39261.htm

And another perspective to understand the global anger :

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/the-mengele-squad-1.316622

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand
 

 
That's a clip from March 2014, hardly evidence of mounting anger and dissent in relation to the current fighting.
 

Can you explain with your own words what is a Hasbara troll ?

Most TV members don't know why they receive silly replies...

Only a Jew can explain it to a non- Jew.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

No idea what you're on about.

 

Your original post implied that there is a lot of that evident currently.

The clip is not recent, and as fact - there are not a whole lot of expression opposing the IDF right now by former

soldiers, at least not more than usual.
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

Perfectly good reasons for putting a stop to Hamas terrorism. Thanks for pointing them out.

 

No country on earth would allow a terrorist group to fire thousands of rockets at them, tunnel under their border and call for their destruction while targeting civilians on a regular basis. The civilian death toll is mostly on Hamas. 

 

The Israeli propaganda on Hamas rockets exposed

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

 

 

Al Jazeera trying to claim that these thousands of rockets aren't all that bad. No other country in the world would put up with them and Israel is not going to either. At least there is one honest paragraph in that opinion piece. 

 

None of this is to suggest the rockets are just or harmless. They have killed an estimated 22 Israelis since 2004 and injured more, indiscriminately. There are reports of Israelis being treated for shock. The public sirens that signal incoming rockets and send people to bunkers disrupt daily life and cause great anxiety. 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

 

 

No other country in the world expels its existing population then claims to be the victim when they retaliate

 

 

Not that your one liner response got much to do with the previous post, but that is something quite standard,

it seems.

 

Either way...

The refugees were not, for the most part, ever the existing population of Israel.

In 1948 most came from areas which belonged to the newly (un)formed Palestine.

In 1967 most were from the West Bank and Gaza Strip which were not then (nor now) part of Israel.
 

[seedy]

So many people posting on this subject just don't get it - or if they do they have a bias or their own agenda.

 

Hamas is wrong to send rockets into Israel.

 

Israel is wrong to shell Gaza.

 

But who is the big player here ?  Tiny Gaza, or Huge Israel.

 

If you do a small wrong it is not as serious as doing a large wrong.

 

The sledgehammer wielded by Israel or the tiny hammer wielded by Hamas.

 

The apologists for Israel will not give one inch, while perpetrating a HUGE wrong.

 

No one agrees with Hamas. But the Israeli response is over the top - just plain WRONG.

 

If you can not see this - or refuse to see it, two words describe you.

 

Id**t or A***ole

[Morch]

 

 

And of course, the conflict started at June....there was nothing prior to this.

Israel carried out operations against Hamas in he West Bank in conjunction with the kidnapping.

Hamas launched rockets from Gaza in response, Israel retaliated with air strikes, Hamas increased rocket fire.

The ground move came after that.

 

 

 

Lets take a look at those "operations" again shall we?

 

Arrests of nearly 400 Palestinians with property and funds seized.

 

5 Palestinians killed in clashes provoked by the raids, some teens.

 

Think about that; 400 arrests. For one kidnapping.

 

The only way to explain it is either Israel has the WORST investigators in the world....or they were deliberately trying to rile people.

 

 

That is the only way you are explaining it.

 

The way I understand it Israel wanted to get information relating to the kidnapping, and at the same time to deal with

Hamas in the West Bank. I seriously doubt that it was a deliberate attempt to rile Hamas into action, certainly not on

the scale into which things developed. People attribute way too much forethought and planning to Israeli decision

making.

 

Note that the PA did not really object all that much to this move. Sort of nice when someone else cleans your back yard.

 

[Morch]

 

Personally I think that the side which has more power and had to endure less difficult times during let's say the last 40 years, so clearly Israelis jews, should do the first step.

The Israelis have already taken the "first step" and long ago. They have offered the Palestinian Arabs peace deals over and over again for the past 100 years, to settle the conflict, and the Arabs have refused every single one.

 

 

Israel had its share of missed chances. Enough of these on both sides to go around and then some.

As far as Hamas goes, though - yes, doesn't seem like peace in on the menu.

 

[Morch]

 

The only way to explain it is either Israel has the WORST investigators in the world....or they were deliberately trying to rile people.

 

 

 

This entire tragedy was engineered by Israel to provoke Hamas.  

 

And by the way, does anyone believe that Israel recently discovered these tunnels?  With all of the technology at its disposal, of course it knew about the tunnels--including their alleged 'sophistication".  Israel knew they could use those tunnels to frighten its populace when it grew weary of its actions, and also allow hold the international community at bay when the calls inevitably came to stop murdering women and children.

 

As was posted earlier, all Israel needs to do is pour cement down in those tunnels and that would be the end of it.  But instead it chooses to continues to kill innocent women and children. 

 

 

There Israel goes again, manipulating everyone. Sure. So much control, so little to show for it. Makes sense.

And the Palestinians? Well, they are so gullible, so easy to manipulate, marionettes in fact. Some believe that.

 

If posters bothered reading news instead of inventing notions, things would be easier to discuss. The current news in

Israel have quite a lot to say about the tunnel issue. Apparently both the government and the IDF knew about them for

quite a while now. The questions of whether they were wrongly deemed as not posing a threat (or as being not top

priority threat), or whether there just wasn't a good way to deal with them, catch a lot of attention. There is talk about

initiating a formal inquiry into this, which could mean some heads will roll (figuratively speaking, one have to be careful

with things taken out of context on these topics).

 

Despite your evident technical expertise on these matters it seems to be trickier than that. The USA faces similar issues

with smuggling tunnels under the border with Mexico, and still haven't got a proper solution. Same applies elsewhere, in

Syria, for example.

 

Some of the tunnels are quite long, deep and wide. Pouring concrete into them while under fire does not sounds like a

very feasible operation.

 

Again, some posters here simply do not allow that Israel might be a country just like others when it comes to making

mistakes, blundering, improvising things as it goes along. Most Israelis would probably be amazed at the forethought

and careful planning attributed to their government.
 

[Jay Sata]

Well if the USA has problems with tunnels from Mexico and the have the high tech explosives they sell or should I say give to Israel maybe they should use the Netanyahu technique and blast the civilians in Mexico to smithereens!

If the IDF believe there are Hammas terrorists hiding in a building why not send the army in to collect them instead of liquidating innocent civilians with 21st century high tech missiles?

[Morch]

 

What does Israel gain from killing innocent women and children? We KNOW what Hamas gains with the pictures of these victims. But I don't see that Israel gains anything. 

 

Of course Israel doesn't gain anything on the international stage.  But surely you must realize that Israel doesn't care one iota about how it is perceived on the international stage.  It  has brazenly thumbed its nose at the UN for years and is always able to hide behind the apron of the US when necessary.

 

But if you can't see how Netanyahu gains domestically (particularly with his fellow Likudniks) by continuing the carnage, then you need to better educate yourself on Israeli domestic politics.

 

 

And the UN is of course an even handed and objective organization in which members vote without agenda whatsoever.

Got a bridge for sale if you're interested.

 

No, I cannot see how Netanyahu is gaining politically from the current fighting. For one thing, the fighting is not over and

a lot of how it is perceived got to do with the aftermath. So quite early to say how this will play in Israeli politics. There are

questions being raised about the IDF readiness for the tunnel thing, which could prove damaging for the PM as well.

So far the ones reaping the benefits are those parties to the right of Netanyahu's Likud (as well as far right elements within

the Likud, some of which got standing issues with Netanyahu).

 

While the concept of carrying out a military operation as an election booster is quite a popular notion, reality shows it does

not always play out as planned, especially true for recent times in Israel. With elections some time away, a lot can happen

by then, so not quite sure this have something to do with garnering votes.

 

To quote from your own post - "you need to better educate yourself on Israeli domestic politics".

[Morch]

 

What does Israel gain from killing innocent women and children? We KNOW what Hamas gains with the pictures of these victims. But I don't see that Israel gains anything. 

Israel hopes by its campaign of murder and destruction to drive out all Palestinians from Gaza, 

then it will carry on the same tactics in the West Bank of building illegal settlements and restricting Palestinian movement in the name of security. the end game is to force out all Palestinians into neighbouring country's.

 

In 1947, the United Nations partitioned Historic Palestine, giving 55% to the Jewish population and 45% to the Palestinian population. The indigenous Palestinians rejected the division of the land on which they had lived and farmed for centuries.

At the time of partition, the Jewish population owned less than 6% of Palestine, and made up 31% of the population.

 

 

If Israel wanted to drive out all the Palestinian from the Gaza Strip, then why did it withdraw to begin with?

And why doesn't it just carpet bomb the whole area and get it over with? With Egypt not keen on opening its

border - where would the Palestinians go, anyway?

 

According to the "logic" displayed - Israel proceed to withdraw unilaterally from the West Bank, wait a few years while

trading rocket fire, air strikes and ground operation against the Palestinians, and just then will come back and attempt

to drive them away. What can I tell ya? Brilliant reasoning there.

 

The fact that non of this is actually happening, and never happened in the way described should not deter you from

coming up with such cunning plans.

 

Oh yeah, that same old line about partition: about half the area accorded to the new state of Israel was a barren desert,

which was not farmed by Palestinians (one, there were no Palestinians as such then, two, the indigenous residents were

Bedouins) and not inhabited by them. Certainly not for centuries.
 

[Morch]

 

 

Ulysses G., you have so much anger in you

I have read your posts. This is another case of the pot calling the kettle black. However, at least my posts are historically accurate. You can not justify the same reasoning.
 

 

You appear blind to the problem and just want to recycle the Zionist rhetoric that has resulted in 40 years of displacement and collective punishment

for the Palestinians.

 

Look at the numbers.

 

1,460 Palestinians, mostly civilians, have died in the conflict and 63 Israelis, mostly soldiers.

 

How many normal Israeli citizens have lost their lives through so called rocket fire in the last month?

 

 

Why is this obsession with wanting to see more Israeli casualties or thinking that casualty lists worldwide are generally

equal?
 

[Jingthing]

Why is this obsession with wanting to see more Israeli casualties or thinking that casualty lists worldwide are generally

equal?
 

 

Exactly.

 Israel is a small nation of only about 8 million people, more than a fifth of them Arabs. Proportionality is a luxury beyond its reach.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-with-israel-the-world-is-blaming-the-victims/2014/07/28/104bcc4c-1680-11e4-9349-84d4a85be981_story.html

 

BTW, worse case scenario which sadly might be a real possibility, IF Israel decides to do some kind of occupation of Gaza which would of course involve a lot of on the ground close contact combat, Israel would of course lose A LOT more people. Would that please the cheerleaders for higher numbers of Israeli dead? 

Edited August 1, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

 

I wonder what Thailand would do if Cambodia started building settlements on their land ?

A good point, but to make it more realistic in terms of the power imbalance and unequal military capacity, we should probably ask:

"What would Thailand do if China started building settlements on their land"?

 

 

Considering Thai Chinese politicians and businessmen running the country, I think that one is already halfway settled.

[Morch]

Well if the USA has problems with tunnels from Mexico and the have the high tech explosives they sell or should I say give to Israel maybe they should use the Netanyahu technique and blast the civilians in Mexico to smithereens!

If the IDF believe there are Hammas terrorists hiding in a building why not send the army in to collect them instead of liquidating innocent civilians with 21st century high tech missiles?

 

Again, in case it was hard to understand - blowing up tunnels is not that big a deal. locating them is. The USA issues with

tunnels are somewhat different, the Mexico border being much longer and nowhere near the population density of the Gaza

Strip. Not too much chances of blowing Mexican civilians to smithereens, but don't let that spoil it for you.

 

Because the IDF, like most armies places a certain value on the lives of its own soldiers as well, and does not send them

on suicide missions. How would things be different for the civilians if they were caught in the midst of a firefight? Got to love

the "collect them" - do you imagine its something like "come along with me, sir"?

[wiki12]

http://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2014/07/31/idf-sniper-admits-to-murdering-13-gazan-children-on-instagram

 

Maybe he could replace Blair as the Middle East peace envoy?

[johna]

Brian Eno's open letter condemning Israel ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, an eye witness account of what Palestinians must endure on a daily basis.

Israel's supporters on this forum have their work cut out trashing Brian Eno,

 

Quote,

 "Palestinian houses hemmed in by wire mesh and boards to prevent settlers throwing shit and piss and used sanitary towels at the inhabitants; Palestinian kids on their way to school being beaten by Israeli kids with baseball batsto parental applause and laughter"

End quote,

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/brian-eno-on-the-israelgaza-crisis-how-can-you-justify-images-such-as-this-9643916.html 

[Ulysses G.]

Israel's supporters on this forum have their work cut out trashing Brian Eno,

Brian Eno the rock star? You must be kidding. Who takes these daft, far-left celebrities' opinions seriously? 

[simple1]

 

Well if the USA has problems with tunnels from Mexico and the have the high tech explosives they sell or should I say give to Israel maybe they should use the Netanyahu technique and blast the civilians in Mexico to smithereens!

If the IDF believe there are Hammas terrorists hiding in a building why not send the army in to collect them instead of liquidating innocent civilians with 21st century high tech missiles?

 

Again, in case it was hard to understand - blowing up tunnels is not that big a deal. locating them is. The USA issues with

tunnels are somewhat different, the Mexico border being much longer and nowhere near the population density of the Gaza

Strip. Not too much chances of blowing Mexican civilians to smithereens, but don't let that spoil it for you.

 

Because the IDF, like most armies places a certain value on the lives of its own soldiers as well, and does not send them

on suicide missions. How would things be different for the civilians if they were caught in the midst of a firefight? Got to love

the "collect them" - do you imagine its something like "come along with me, sir"?

 

 

Israel aims to minimise troop casualties

 

MODERN weaponry, such as that used by Israel in the Gaza conflict, causes fewer civilian ­casualties in the close-in battle, but not the greater distance battle, says a top US military expert.

 

Former assistant secretary of defence for international security affairs Bing West, today an author on war-fighting and counterinsurgency, told The Weekend Australian that “artillery is a distant weapon, and Israel has fired over 30,000 shells. In the April 2004 invasion of Fallujah, the US Marines did not fire one artillery shell.”

 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/israel-aims-to-minimise-troop-casualties/story-e6frg6so-1227010701010#

 

 

In the print version he went on to say the Marines lost 29 dead in house clearing operations during the battle. I guess the IDF only deploys regular forces for close in combat?

Edited August 2, 2014 by simple1

[up-country_sinclair]

 

Israel's supporters on this forum have their work cut out trashing Brian Eno,

Brian Eno the rock star? You must be kidding. Who takes these daft, far-left celebrities' opinions seriously? 

 

 

Yeah, the next think you know, someone will post the opinion of comedian Joan Rivers. 

Edited August 2, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Fookhaht]

Relative to the current conflict, i'm wondering what historical facts could be disputed in the following Israeli-sourced communication.

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/the-most-important-video-about-israel-ever-made Edited August 2, 2014 by Fookhaht

[johna]

 

Israel's supporters on this forum have their work cut out trashing Brian Eno,

Brian Eno the rock star? You must be kidding. Who takes these daft, far-left celebrities' opinions seriously? 

 

Ulysses G the Israel supporter, You must be kidding. Who takes these daft far right wing opinions seriously .

 

Oh really UG, other that Brain Eno gives a first hand truthful account of daily life for Palestinians, what exactly are you complaining about. 

[Ulysses G.]

Anyone who talks about "ethnic cleansing" in relation to the Palestinians is either stupid or a liar. They would be long gone, if Israel wanted it so. Brian Eno turned out some decent music long ago, but he seems to be very ignorant when it comes to the conflict in Gaza. 

[Asiantravel]

interesting to know how Times Of Israel really feels

 

 

"Genocide Is Permissible" Muses Times Of Israel, Promptly Retracts

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Asiantravel]

Anyone who talks about "ethnic cleansing" in relation to the Palestinians is either stupid or a liar. They would be long gone, if Israel wanted it so. Brian Eno turned out some decent music long ago, but he seems to be very ignorant when it comes to the conflict in Gaza. 

 

 

 

well  if not "ethnic cleansing" at the very least it is the implementation of   The Dahiya doctrine
 

 

The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence.

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

[Ulysses G.]

interesting to know how Times Of Israel really feels

Actually it is from a blog, by one guy.  If he had used a different title and skipped the last sentence, it would have been a really good article that would not have caused controversy.

 

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/yochanan-genocide-permissible.html

Edited August 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Harsh Jones]

 

'Terror tunnels', 'Rockets' 'wipe off map'

Perfectly good reasons for putting a stop to Hamas terrorism. Thanks for pointing them out.

 

No country on earth would allow a terrorist group to fire thousands of rockets at them, tunnel under their border and call for their destruction while targeting civilians on a regular basis. The civilian death toll is mostly on Hamas. 

 

 

This is true. Not much else needs to be said..

[Asiantravel]

 

interesting to know how Times Of Israel really feels

Actually it is from a blog, by one guy.  If he had used a different title and skipped the last sentence, it would have been a really good article that would not have caused controversy.

 

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/yochanan-genocide-permissible.html

 

 

 

what I   don't understand is if what the Germans did to the 'Jewish People' was such an unforgivable crime, how is it when the very same same thing is being done right now the to the Palestinians it's justifiable because Jewish people have the right to exist???!!!

[Ulysses G.]

Because it is ISN'T being done to the Palestinians or they would be long gone. Such stupid accusations make it clear that you are not being honest and have an agenda. . 

Edited August 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Asiantravel]

Because it is ISN'T being done to the Palestinians or they would be long gone. Such stupid accusations make it clear that you are not being honest and have an agenda.  . 

 

 

 I don't have any agenda other than to try to understand how you continually keep justifying what is happening and your  dismissal of the views of people, (whether they are Jews or non-Jews) that don't happen to meet the goal of a handful of Zionists.

 

 

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/14220/roger_waters_israel_has_same_policies_as_the_nazis