Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator

[Ulysses G.]

So finally after all UG and Morchs bloated prose we have a half truth out of you.

Don't you even recognize SARCASM? He is amusing himself at your expense and making a valid point at the same time.  Neither Jews nor Arabs can have their foreign spouses from hostile countries immigrate to Israel. Your claim is complete nonsense. 
 

Israel apologists often boast that Israel is a democracy with 20% Israeli Arab citizens, but they don't tell you that Israeli Jews can marry who they like  even non Jews and bring them to live in Israel, but Israeli Arabs cannot

Edited August 4, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Morch, 

 

Arab Israelis can marry whomever they like. What it not allowed is immigration of Palestinians spouses to Israel

 

 

So...Catch 22

 

A very interesting discussion on the topic

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26067980

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/12/israel-civil-marriage-ban_n_3429764.html

 

I didn’t realize how powerful the Rabbinate was.

 

Could an Israeli Arab use the same loophole that Israeli Jews do?

“Thousands of couples have taken advantage of a loophole in the law, in which they fly abroad, often to Cyprus, and have a wedding there. That civil wedding is then recognized by the State of Israel and the couple is listed as “married” in Israel.”

 

Which brings us back to my original point, why by law can an Israeli Arab who is supposed to have equal rights, not marry a West Bank Palestinian or a Yemenite or a Pakistani in Cyprus even and bring the spouse back to live in Israel?

 

This whole discussion about marriage regulations in Israel has probably very little to do with the need for finding a credible mediator to help sides move along.

 

The Cyprus thing is technically possible, yes. Does it mean all goes smoothly afterwards? Hardly.  There are quite a few later instances where an Israeli Jew might need papers and permits which right now are controlled by institutionalized religion. Mind that this actually does not apply for Muslims (who have their own parallel system for similar things). The problem of religion and state separation is one of the core issues with election campaigns in recent years. Very slow going on this front. And yes,  marrying abroad is not just a Jewish Israeli thing - as Arab Israelis have their own issues with religious control this is sometimes done as well. Again, personal acquaintance with people who did this.

 

 

[Morch]

 

 

Which brings us back to my original point, why by law can an Israeli Arab who is supposed to have equal rights, not marry a West Bank Palestinian or a Yemenite or a Pakistani in Cyprus even and bring the spouse back to live in Israel?

For the exact same reason that a Jewish Israeli CAN'T as you have been told over and over again. Palestinian terrorists could use marriage to become Israeli citizens, so neither Jews nor Arabs can have their foreign spouses from hostile countries immigrate to Israel.

 

 

You are being disingenuous and dishonest.

 

1000s of Israeli Jews fly to Cyprus to marry non Jews in a civil ceremony. They come back to Israel and the civil ceremony is recognized and they both have residency.

 

But an Israeli Arab man cannot get married outside Israel to his West Bank Palestinian bride, have his marriage recognized by the State of Israel where he is a supposedly equal citizen, because there is a law specifically aimed at Israeli Arabs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law

 

So much for Israeli democracy.

 

 

Oh, you got something quite wrong here. Should have explained this in earlier post.

Israeli Jews doing the Cyprus marriage thing do not, on many occasions, marry foreigners at all.

Instead - there are quite a lot of Israelis who's "Jewishness" is not seen as 100% kosher by the institutionalized

system of the rabbinate. There are various reasons which can lead to this, a lot to do with struggles between 

schools of Judaism (mainly Orthodox, which control how things are done, vs. Conservative and reform streams).

Other silly religious rules pertaining to marriage apply, based on certain surnames, and familial status etc.

So quite a lot of these marriages are done to either bypass these restrictions and hassles, or, in many other cases,

as a way of expressing contempt for this warped system.

 

But do go on with nonsense, especially about things obviously just read on the net.
 

[boomerangutang]

A lot more than a mediator is needed there. How about a big dose of common sense, particularly for the Palestinians. When you get your nose bloodied time after time, perhaps it's time to try a different tact.

The Palestinians have repeatedly offered peace. When there's a whiff of tranquility and detente, Israel is always the one to provoke trouble again.... as it did in 2008, 2012, and now 2014..it's like deja vu all over again!
Israel doesn't want peace. It just wants a managed conflict while it grabs more land illegally in the West Bank. Foolish...because it will one day inherit a huge demographic time bomb of Palestinian citizens outbreeding them.

Palestinian leaders have put forth demands, not offered peace. In the bigger perspective, Palestinian hot-heads have tried provoking conflict on and off for decades, in the hope it will compel Arab countries (or any countries, for that matter) to jump in the fray against Israel. To some extent, the Palestinians have been successful at widening conflicts, though each time, the Israelis show they're militarily: a tough nut to crack.  
 

A lot more than a mediator is needed there. How about a big dose of common sense, particularly for the Palestinians. When you get your nose bloodied time after time, perhaps it's time to try a different tact.

 Perhaps i might correct you on a "minor" item.
 1850 civilians murdered is not a bloody nose as you put it.  Its genocide.  This Israeli government are war criminals as should be judged as such.

1850 so-called 'civilians' killed in what time frame? Since the 1940's? More than 1850 Thais are killed on Thai roads in less than 5 years. And who says they're all civilians? I'm not belittling any death, but a man dressed in civilian clothes is not necessarily a civilian.

BTW, 'bloody nose' is a figment of speech - commonly used in the context I used it. English is a colorful language. Other terms which are generally used, in relation to military action: 'body blow' 'full court press' 'aggressive action' 'break their will' 'break their back' etc.

[ggold]

 

So finally after all UG and Morchs bloated prose we have a half truth out of you.

Don't you even recognize SARCASM? He is amusing himself at your expense and making a valid point at the same time.  Neither Jews nor Arabs can have their foreign spouses from hostile countries immigrate to Israel. Your claim is complete nonsense. 
 

Israel apologists often boast that Israel is a democracy with 20% Israeli Arab citizens, but they don't tell you that Israeli Jews can marry who they like  even non Jews and bring them to live in Israel, but Israeli Arabs cannot

 

 

I wonder if a Pakistani, or Yemeni Muslim would actually want to move to Israel! I would have thought the Palestinian would be more happy in those countries rather than the West bank?

 

[Scott]

Continued discussion about marriage and immigration regulations are off-topic, they will be deleted and members will receive a suspension.   Please stay on topic.  

[ggold]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4554469,00.html

 

 

Gaza conflict redraws Mideast alliances

 

What do Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Kuwait all have in common? They see the Islamist Hamas movement as the biggest danger to regionl stability, and have allied themselves, as least tacitly, with Israel

[Johpa]

 

A lot more than a mediator is needed there. How about a big dose of common sense, particularly for the Palestinians. When you get your nose bloodied time after time, perhaps it's time to try a different tact.

 

Perhaps i might correct you on a "minor" item.

 

1850 civilians murdered is not a bloody nose as you put it.  Its genocide.  This Israeli government are war criminals as should be judged as such.  

 

 

The civilian death toll is indeed far more than a bloody nose but it is also a far cry from genocide.  And war is a criminal activity but few of the top criminals are ever indicted, nor will any of the failed leadership of either Israel or the Levantine Arabs be indicted for any malfeasance.  And it is a rather moot point to call for a credible mediator when there is no credible leadership on either side.  Blaming Obama or Kerry is a ludicrous misplacement of the disdain you should have towards both Netanyahu and Hamas.

[boomerangutang]

A lot more than a mediator is needed there. How about a big dose of common sense, particularly for the Palestinians. When you get your nose bloodied time after time, perhaps it's time to try a different tact.

 
Perhaps i might correct you on a "minor" item.
 
1850 civilians murdered is not a bloody nose as you put it.  Its genocide.  This Israeli government are war criminals as should be judged as such.

 
The civilian death toll is indeed far more than a bloody nose but it is also a far cry from genocide.  And war is a criminal activity but few of the top criminals are ever indicted, nor will any of the failed leadership of either Israel or the Levantine Arabs be indicted for any malfeasance.  And it is a rather moot point to call for a credible mediator when there is no credible leadership on either side.  Blaming Obama or Kerry is a ludicrous misplacement of the disdain you should have towards both Netanyahu and Hamas.

"war is a criminal activity" is too generalized. Of course, no one likes war, particularly if they're on the losing side. Yet, for our species and ants, war is a necessary evil. War usually has an aggressor and a defender, though the variations are myriad and often the roles get fuzzy or switched. Without war; the 13 American colonies would still be colonies of the UK, most of Asia would be owned by Japan, and most of Europe would have been ruled by Nazis. Sure that's simplistic, but wars often have defensive forces which have a choice: fight or die - or: fight, or lose territory. Every scenario is unique.

[tpazzi]

Without war; the 13 American colonies would still be colonies of the UK, most of Asia would be owned by Japan, and most of Europe would have been ruled by Nazis.

 

 

Interesting line of thought...  but "without war" how would most of Europe fallen under the rule of the Nazis?    How would Asia have come to be owned by Japan?   How would the Colonies have become colonies?    

 

I'm being rhetorical of course.  I completely agree with you that war has been an essential shaping force in how the human species has arrived to this point in time.  But I also applaud anyone who desires to leave it in our past.    ("Better to strive for perfection and miss." )

 

 

I certainly don't mean to be naive about it.  The situation between Israel and Palestine certainly does call for credible mediation as the title of this thread suggests (even if the discussion has strayed a bit.)   I'd suggest looking towards one from a Buddhist culture if only because I think Christians have their own historical baggage with both groups involved. 

 

I would also be in favor of an armed third party peace keeping force to enforce boundaries, conduct inspections, investigate grievances. etc.  And I would nominate the Vietnamese (seriously) for that job.  

[dexterm]

 

Without war; the 13 American colonies would still be colonies of the UK, most of Asia would be owned by Japan, and most of Europe would have been ruled by Nazis.

 

 

Interesting line of thought...  but "without war" how would most of Europe fallen under the rule of the Nazis?    How would Asia have come to be owned by Japan?   How would the Colonies have become colonies?    

 

I'm being rhetorical of course.  I completely agree with you that war has been an essential shaping force in how the human species has arrived to this point in time.  But I also applaud anyone who desires to leave it in our past.    ("Better to strive for perfection and miss." )

 

 

I certainly don't mean to be naive about it.  The situation between Israel and Palestine certainly does call for credible mediation as the title of this thread suggests (even if the discussion has strayed a bit.)   I'd suggest looking towards one from a Buddhist culture if only because I think Christians have their own historical baggage with both groups involved. 

 

I would also be in favor of an armed third party peace keeping force to enforce boundaries, conduct inspections, investigate grievances. etc.  And I would nominate the Vietnamese (seriously) for that job.  

 

 

The problem for Israel is that it has tried to a be a an expansionist colonial power in the mid 20th and 21st centuries in an area where the existing Palestinian inhabitants have been seeking self determination.

 

European colonial powers  got away with murder literally In the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania. They couldn't repeat it nowadays.

 

Now there are international laws against annexing land conquered in war. And now also the whole world is watching and criticizing Israel via the social media.

 

Israel has simply left its colonial run too late.

 

Israel must face facts and compromise in a just peace agreement, and realize this is 2014 and not 1814.

Edited August 5, 2014 by dexterm

[ABCer]

Gentlemen, look back at the OP:  "Middle East conflict needs a credible mediator".

 

May I suggest a trio - dexterm, coma and boomerangutang (the last one is needed to add some commonsense and moderation).

 

Nobody has to agree with me, but this does not mean you start shooting rockets in my direction. 

 

Any other recommendations?  

 

Please, get onto the topic.

Edited August 5, 2014 by ABCer

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.  

 

As another poster has asked, please get back on the topic.  

[boomerangutang]

There have been mediators during the past 65 years. Most have been US presidents. I don't know all the details, but I recall at least twice, when things came very close to a semblance of balance, that Arafat (the PLO leader for many years) chose to break away from agreement (or seeking solutions, or coordination), and continue the wild ride of confrontation.
More than any one person, Arafat has kept the fires of troubles burning, and his legacy lives on.

[ABCer]

There have been mediators during the past 65 years. Most have been US presidents. I don't know all the details, but I recall at least twice, when things came very close to a semblance of balance, that Arafat (the PLO leader for many years) chose to break away from agreement (or seeking solutions, or coordination), and continue the wild ride of confrontation.
More than any one person, Arafat has kept the fires of troubles burning, and his legacy lives on.

 

I think he was the FIRST terrorist who got a Nobel prize for Peace.

I also remember him travelling the World in style kissing with all the Presidents on front side and Russian First Secretaries on the back side.

 

And to all TV members who are disturbed by 3Bn dollars help Israel gets from US Jewish Lobby -

 

* please check how many $$$ Bn are in personal accounts of the Great Leaders of 'Palestinian' poor nation;

* please check how much $$$ Bn cost the rockets and other armaments used by 'Poor' Palestinian nation;

* please check how much $$$ Bn cost the tunnel works;

* please check how much $$$ Bn are  (could have been) collected by 400,000,000 sympathisers of 'Poor Palestinian Nation' including the same USA.

 

One does not have to be an Israeli or their supporter to see how illogical and unfair some of our TV heroes are.

[Ulysses G.]

The problem for Israel is that it has tried to a be a an expansionist colonial power in the mid 20th and 21st centuries in an area where the existing Palestinian inhabitants have been seeking self determination.

Historical accuracy is not your forte. The existing Palestinian inhabitants were both Jewish and Arab and the Arabs left the Jews no choice, but to decalre their own nation. Most of the Arabs had no interest in "self determination" until they lost another of numerous wars in 1967 and very badly. In fact, they never demanded "self determination" from either Egypt or Jordan, who were occupying land that they were offered in 1947 - and refused. Edited August 5, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[up-country_sinclair]

The title of this thread is: 

Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator

 

Can anyone provide a list of five nations and/or international organizations that Israel would accept as credible mediators?

 

 

I await the deafening silence. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Jingthing]

The title of this thread is: 

Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator

 

Can anyone provide a list of five nations and/or international organizations that Israel would accept as credible mediators?

 

 

I await the deafening silence. 

 

 

 

 

 

Israel can't negotiate with Hamas. Period.

Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

You can't compromise with such a force. 

[Asiantravel]

The title of this thread is: 

Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator

 

Can anyone provide a list of five nations and/or international organizations that Israel would accept as credible mediators?

 

 

I await the deafening silence. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even one would be promising

[Asiantravel]

 

The title of this thread is: 

Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator

 

Can anyone provide a list of five nations and/or international organizations that Israel would accept as credible mediators?

 

 

I await the deafening silence. 

 

 

 

 

 

Israel can't negotiate with Hamas. Period.

Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

You can't compromise with such a force. 

 

 

 

There will never be any success in negotiations as long as the so-called mediator is simultaneously the provider of weapons to one side in the dispute

[Jingthing]

Trust is zero between both sides. This problem isn't going to be solved anytime soon. 

[Ulysses G.]

Can anyone provide a list of five nations and/or international organizations that Israel would accept as credible mediators?

I'm pretty sure that they would welcome UN Watch and so would I. They are doing great work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgvldxE1hqI

[up-country_sinclair]

 

 

The title of this thread is: 

Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator

 

Can anyone provide a list of five nations and/or international organizations that Israel would accept as credible mediators?

 

 

I await the deafening silence. 

 

 

 

 

 

Israel can't negotiate with Hamas. Period.

Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

You can't compromise with such a force. 

 

 

 

There will never be any success in negotiations as long as the so-called mediator is simultaneously the provider of weapons to one side in the dispute

 

 

Israel won't even accept the US as a mediator.  It is well and truly alone.  Like the pariah it is.

[Ulysses G.]

The country is thriving and they just got rid of numerous terrorist tunnels and loads of rockets and weapons. The Senate and the House just passed further funding for Iron Dome. The Arab countries are turning their backs on Hamas and Egypt is going to make it very difficult for them to resupply. Actually, Israel is doing just fine. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

 

The problem for Israel is that it has tried to a be a an expansionist colonial power in the mid 20th and 21st centuries in an area where the existing Palestinian inhabitants have been seeking self determination.

Historical accuracy is not your forte. The existing Palestinian inhabitants were both Jewish and Arab and the Arabs left the Jews no choice, but to decalre their own nation. Most of the Arabs had no interest in "self determination" until they lost another of numerous wars in 1967 and very badly. In fact, they never demanded "self determination" from either Egypt or Jordan, who were occupying land that they were offered in 1947 - and refused.

 

 

Not biting...mod said this is off topic

[Jingthing]

Well, I think Israel is quite stressed by this. But still strong:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huVww6TZoUw

[ggold]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555269,00.html

 

 

Hamas official: Tonight we will start indirect negotiations with Israel

 

 

Senior Hamas official Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, who is Cairo as part of the effort to achieve a ceasefire agreement , said that "on Tuesday evening the Palestinian delegation will begin indirect negotiation with Israel that will be based on the Palestinian people demands."

[boomerangutang]

The title of this thread is: 
Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator
 
Can anyone provide a list of five nations and/or international organizations that Israel would accept as credible mediators? I await the deafening silence.

 
Even one would be promising

 Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg, Denmark, Iceland, Singapore, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Finland, Canada, ....shall I go on?

It doesn't really matter who the Israelis accept as mediators. The sticking point is Palestinian leaders insistence on Israel's destruction. If one side starts with that premise, then where can that lead? .....nowhere good. It's like a divorcing couple going to get counseling on how to divvy up the possessions. One spouse makes the following condition at the outset: "The other spouse must die." Edited August 5, 2014 by boomerangutang

[Jingthing]

Laos might be good. Unusually low rate of Judeophobia there. 

[up-country_sinclair]

 

 

The title of this thread is: 
Middle East conflict: Need for credible mediator
 
Can anyone provide a list of five nations and/or international organizations that Israel would accept as credible mediators? I await the deafening silence.

 
Even one would be promising

 

 Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg, Denmark, Iceland, Singapore, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Finland, Canada, ....shall I go on?

 

 

Should you go on?  I'd suggest you quickly start over.

 

But OK, perhaps you could explain why you think Israel would accept these countries as mediators because quite frankly, I couldn't get past the first few without literally laughing out loud.

 

You really think Israel would accept Norway, Sweden and Luxembourg as mediators?  State pension funds in Norway and Luxembourg have (rightly) divested from Israeli military companies, banks or companies involved in the illegal settlements.  It's similar in Denmark and The Netherlands.  Sweden and Israel were at each other diplomatic throats over Iran less than two years ago.  And Singapore?  You might want to check out this link: 

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/what-is-buzzing/sympathy-for-palestine-surges-in-singapore-amid-heightened-israel-gaza-conflict-033837106.html

 

I don't think that Israel would accept any of the countries you listed.  But please provide a specific and detailed explanation of why you think they would.    Just naming countries isn't going to cut it.

 

Edited August 5, 2014 by up-country_sinclair