The differences between english and thai when creating new words.

[ultimate weapon]

I noticed that english creates new words not really by combining 2 english words together. They have a variety of methods one way is to combine 2 latin words together to make it an english word. That is why if someone understands latin he would be able to see how it is 2 words combined together. I know that english has many influences like from the norman french a long time ago not to mention latin and so on.

Contrast this to thai and say chinese. The chinese word for butter is cow oil. That's right they combine cow+oil to call it butter. I know this is the same for thai words. Say the thai word for cellphone it's literally something like "portable talk device" Pardon me my thai isn't up to scratch but i would say english is more sophisticated in this respect like they know how to create new words but using other languages rather than combining 2 english words together.

Do you agree?

[starrdog]

Probably best to delete my original post. Though I will say I really dislike posts that insinuate Thai people are unsophisticated or stupid.

[AyG]

Thai was originally a monosyllabic language. To represent more complex ideas individual one syllable words were strung together. In Chinese, this is very much built into the writing system where the individual concepts are represented by individual ideograms.

Unlike Vietnamese, which was also monosyllabic and was originally written using ideograms, Thai was late to develop a written form, and never (as far as we know) used ideograms for writing, making its monosyllabic roots perhaps less evident.

English is polysyllabic, so the way that new words are invented and words are combined is less rigid. Plus English draws upon a far wider range of source languages for its lexis, giving a greater range of possibilities.

So, English is not more sophisticated, just different. Playing devil's advocate one could argue that the Thai approach is more sophisticated because it's simpler and more logical.

[ultimate weapon]

I kind of apologize to use the word sophisticated that would imply that the other languages that don't follow the english route would be simplistic.

I actually didn't know what to call it. Complex wouldn't have done it because in a way would imply the other languages are simplistic too.

To AYG thanks for the explaination. It's good to see people have a more balanced view of different languages instead of adopting the west is superior mindset which ironically in asia some asians have that type of mindset that english is well more "advanced" compared to these asian languages.

[squarethecircle]

I've noticed what you're saying with Chinese, like the word for "quantum mechanics" is literally "study of force of quantity" or "mechanics of quantity" (Google Translate gives it in full, just have to translate each character), doesn't really have anything to do with the actual study. It doesn't seem well suited for a scientific language and I wonder how much this is responsible for what Joseph Needham called his "big question", why China sort of floundered out and never developed a full and proper science. But not sure if the same applies to telephone="distance sound" from the original Greek, whereas in Putonghua it is Dian2Hua4 (think I got the tones right?) literally "Electric Voice", the English makes as much sense as the Chinese here. Or "biology" in English is also just "study of life" in Thai, not any more sophisticated there.

Another thing that comes to mind: I heard it said that "The West's specialty is knowledge, while the East's specialty is understanding". That certainly seems born out by the languages - Thai in particular is very intuitive, feeling-based, as opposed to rational, no? One example of this is I find that I am much better understand by both Chinese and Thai native speakers when a bit drunk, others have said the same, as drinking interferes with rational processes but lets more feeling-based thoughts come out.

[SlyAnimal]

I never realised how imperfect English was until I started to:

1/ Teach English, and see how difficult many of the concepts were for foreign students to master.

2/ Study Thai, where I saw how easy and logical it was by comparison.

Personally I feel that Thai is a superior language to English in many aspects. The primary aspect being that it is a much more logical language, for exactly the reason the OP mentioned.

e.g. Towel = ผ้าเช็ดตัว = ผ้า Cloth เช็ด clean/rub ตัวbody.

On this basis, people are able to understand many new Thai words, even with only a vague reference to context, simply by hearing the word itself.

Comparatively English often seems like it's being difficult for the sake of being difficult. As although there are many "word families" which is great, you often need to understand about half a dozen other languages in order to achieve a similar effect.

Likewise English grammar is complicated for the sake of being complicated. Go, Going, Gone.... Go/Going seem to be pretty logical, and a nice "system", but gone.... I think ไป จะไป ไปแล้ว is a pattern which is significantly easier to understand, and more logical.

Also Thai is more specific in the sounds within it's writing, as English has some shockers.

e.g. I don't like travelling down this windy road on windy days. Or I was present at a conference where Dr.X had present his presentation so that he didn't have to present it himself. (Admittedly I think the middle present should have a - though).

Thai and English both have words which are pronounced the same, but spelt differently, with different meanings, and likewise both have silent characters, although English usually puts them at the front vs Thai putting them at the end.

There are other strengths of Thai over English, but most of them are much of a muchness, and more personal preference than anything else. e.g. Limitations on sound pronunciation, Tones + Ng Bp + Classifiers vs Th Sh etc. And the strength of having a more specific language like Thai, where words are said how they're written, compared to a more "free style" language like English, where words might be said completely differently to how they're spelt (depending on the word's origins and the context).

The one strength that English has over Thai, is that English uses a lot more "popular" tools within it's language than what Thai does. e.g. The Latin alphabet is used across all of Europe + due to the dominance of the European Empires, it's also used in a huge amount of countries outside Europe. The Arabic numbers are used essentially everywhere. And of course, the English language is viewed as the "international language", and American corporations, and as a byproduct American culture, has influenced just about every country in the world, and as a result English comes with it, however this doesn't mean that English is a superior language

[kaorop]

Has anyone ever seen a Thai thesaurus?

[Aforek]

The one strength that English has over Thai, is that English uses a lot more "popular" tools within it's language than what Thai does. e.g. The Latin alphabet is used across all of Europe + due to the dominance of the European Empires, it's also used in a huge amount of countries outside Europe.

May be it's a strength, but vietnamese, hmong , and malay ( and others that I don't know ) with their latin script are horrible to look at ! asian languages are much more aesthetic ( including Thai language, of course ) with their own script

you are right, I don't know in what way English is superior to Thai language; they are diffferent and both are rich languages.

[AyG]

Has anyone ever seen a Thai thesaurus?

If by thesaurus you mean something that lists synonyms and antonyms, then yes. LEXiTRON is one such work. You can access it online via one front end at http://thai-notes.com/tools/predictionary.shtml It's also available at http://lexitron.nectec.or.th/2009_1/index_en.php

[DavidHouston]

,

Has anyone ever seen a Thai thesaurus?

Yes. "คลังคำ" ("A Treasury of Words"), ดร. นววรรณ พันธุเมธม, ISBN 974-272-271-4, 600 Baht.

See http://www.naiin.com/product/detail/60377 .

[Richard W]

Don't forget that Thai also makes new words by sticking Pali and Sanskrit words together, like โทรศัพท์ 'telephone'.

[ultimate weapon]

I've noticed what you're saying with Chinese, like the word for "quantum mechanics" is literally "study of force of quantity" or "mechanics of quantity" (Google Translate gives it in full, just have to translate each character), doesn't really have anything to do with the actual study. It doesn't seem well suited for a scientific language and I wonder how much this is responsible for what Joseph Needham called his "big question", why China sort of floundered out and never developed a full and proper science. But not sure if the same applies to telephone="distance sound" from the original Greek, whereas in Putonghua it is Dian2Hua4 (think I got the tones right?) literally "Electric Voice", the English makes as much sense as the Chinese here. Or "biology" in English is also just "study of life" in Thai, not any more sophisticated there.

Another thing that comes to mind: I heard it said that "The West's specialty is knowledge, while the East's specialty is understanding". That certainly seems born out by the languages - Thai in particular is very intuitive, feeling-based, as opposed to rational, no? One example of this is I find that I am much better understand by both Chinese and Thai native speakers when a bit drunk, others have said the same, as drinking interferes with rational processes but lets more feeling-based thoughts come out.

Doesn't this apply to thai too?

Anyway this example you gave on an english word. telephone which means distance sound in greek. You see how they use greek words or latin words to create new english words instead of using 2 english words.

[Johpa]

Don't forget that Thai also makes new words by sticking Pali and Sanskrit words together, like โทรศัพท์ 'telephone'.

Yes, Thai uses Pali in the same way that English uses Latin. Those who have nominal control of such things like to borrow from what is, at least historically, the more prestigious language as it makes themselves feel more prestigious at their academies. And Thais has also borrowed heavily from Khmer, especially with regards to Royal Language, a historical click of the heel and tip of the hat to the ruling lords of Nakorn Wat (Angor Wat) who once were perceived as the cat's meow by the then lowly Tai chieftans.

As to English, I hope you realize that you are calling one of the most truly bastard languages in the world "sophisticated". But like many mongrels, it does tend to exhibit a certain strength and resilience than many a purebred lacks. But I don't like to ascribe human characteristics to languages. It is not that any one language can be sophisticated than another language, only the self-perceptions of the speakers may acquire such attributes.

[arunsakda]

I get asked questions about English I could never possibly answer. Not just emphasis that could be missed "Who doesn't like Pizza?". How about,

"The Chicken smells good"

Same syntax, way different meaning. It is a very illogical and irregular language.

[MilesofSmiles]

Languages absolutely have an effect on how you think, act, and view the world.

Why is it so heretical to suggest that one is more or less 'sophisticated' than another ?

It's like trying to argue that all cultures generate equal outcomes for their participants, it's simply not the case.

[Johpa]

I get asked questions about English I could never possibly answer. Not just emphasis that could be missed "Who doesn't like Pizza?". How about,

"The Chicken smells good"

Same syntax, way different meaning. It is a very illogical and irregular language.

There is little illogical or irregular about the use of stress in English to change the meaning of a sentence. If you suffer from insomnia then may I suggest perusing any number of linguistic treatises on the subject. But I did warn you that the reading is rather tedious going.

As for not being able to answer grammatical questions regarding your native language, well join the rest of humanity as nobody needs to learn the rules, it comes with the human brain. Don't ask a Thai about tone rules and don't ask a native English speaker about plural formation in English as 99% of the time you only get an orthographic rule and not a morphophonemic rule. See, I told you this stuff is mind numbing.

Languages absolutely have an effect on how you think, act, and view the world.

Why is it so heretical to suggest that one is more or less 'sophisticated' than another ?

It's like trying to argue that all cultures generate equal outcomes for their participants, it's simply not the case.

Whether languages effect and impact how you think is a long debated topic in linguistics. Google Benjamin Whorf as a starting point, but again, warning, very dry reading. But that is quite different than the language, the grammar itself, being more "sophisticated" rather than making the subjective judgment that a specific culture is more "sophisticated" or technologically superior. It would seem that any language can adopt to increasing "sophistication", technology, or other substantive change in culture. The most common method of change is to simply borrow from another language. The Anglo-Saxons residents of Great Britain borrowed heavily from Latin as their culture became more "sophisticated" from the encounter with Rome, and English, one of the most bastard languages on the planet, has no problems to borrow from anywhere, it is our weltanschauung. Thais are proud to borrow from Pali. Pity the poor Germans, French, or Chinese whose cultures, although sophisticated by most measures, are too proud to borrow new words.

That being said, there are significant problems for speakers of a language when they experience a quantum change in culture within a single generation, moving from say subsistence farming to modernity. My wife comes from one of the minority cultures up north and most of the younger generation who come into the city to work and live give up on their mother tongue and only teach their children Thai.

[Aforek]

Pity the poor Germans, French, or Chinese whose cultures, although sophisticated by most measures, are too proud to borrow new words.

?? You don't think that French language is invaded by English words ( especially modern words, computer, fashion, technology ) ?

not a big debate in France , the greatest defenders of " pure French " are people from Quebec

[kaorop]

Thai was originally a monosyllabic language. To represent more complex ideas individual one syllable words were strung together. In Chinese, this is very much built into the writing system where the individual concepts are represented by individual ideograms.

Unlike Vietnamese, which was also monosyllabic and was originally written using ideograms, Thai was late to develop a written form, and never (as far as we know) used ideograms for writing, making its monosyllabic roots perhaps less evident.

English is polysyllabic, so the way that new words are invented and words are combined is less rigid. Plus English draws upon a far wider range of source languages for its lexis, giving a greater range of possibilities.

So, English is not more sophisticated, just different. Playing devil's advocate one could argue that the Thai approach is more sophisticated because it's simpler and more logical.

interesting points

playing a card back at you,

but it is, seemingly less expressive, i dont know (before anyone jumps on me) and why i'm asking

is there a thai language thesaurus?

[AyG]

is there a thai language thesaurus?

Yes. For example: https://www.se-ed.com/product/%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%96%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A0%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%98%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%99.aspx?no=9789745094710

Some dictionaries (e.g. LEXiTRON) include synonyms and antonyms for Thai words.

[CaptHaddock]

Attempts at explaining why one language is more "sophisticated" than another simply reveal the cultural bias of the questioner and show a lack of intellectual sophistication. English gets new words by borrowing from other languages (e.g. schadenfreude, hummus, courage), by forming compound words (e.g. weekend, password, airlift), by re-using an existing word with a new, unrelated meaning (e.g. gay, troll, geek), by simply making up a new word out of nothing (e.g. uber, kleenex), by converting a proper name into a common noun or verb (e.g. boycott, swiftboat), etc. Thai does the same. Probably all languages, including Thai, do as well because all peoples are pretty ingenious at adapting language to suit their purposes. Most modern languages have a substantial element of borrowed words.

The purposes of groups of speakers are not the same however so the languages have different facilities. English, and other Indo-European languages, have a strong sense of narrative time. Recounting events more or less requires ordering them in time. Thai and the Chinese languages lack this strong emphasis, which can seem like a deficiency to an unsophisticated native English-speaking learning the language. On the other hand, English is comparatively deficient in expressing gradations of social relationships in the language. So, Thai has a much richer vocabulary of pronouns to adumbrate small differences and fluctuations in social relationships.

The notion that a language influences or restricts the thinking of its speakers goes by the name of the Whorfian hypothesis and is currently regarded as bunk. For a book length summary of the case against the Whorfian hypothesis see "The Language Hoax" by John McWhorter.

Generally, when we find what we think is a defect in the language we are learning we are only encountering our own cultural bias.

[DavidHouston]

Another Thai thesaurus is "คลังคำ" by ดร. นววรรณ พันธุเมธา . See http://www.thai-language.com/book-reviews#4 for a book review.

[CaptHaddock]

Another Thai thesaurus is "คลังคำ" by ดร. นววรรณ พันธุเมธา . See http://www.thai-language.com/book-reviews#4 for a book review.

Looks useful, but too bad it is short on examples. Thai needs an OED or Petit Robert.

[AyG]

Attempts at explaining why one language is more "sophisticated" than another simply reveal the cultural bias of the questioner and show a lack of intellectual sophistication.

This smacks of the dogma that all races are equal, that all cultures are morally equivalent. It has become politically incorrect to state that, on average, Negroes are less intelligent than Caucasians, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary. It is also now apparently unacceptable to state that certain religions incite violence, and aren't a religion of peace - again, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Political correctness is stifling free thought and free discussion*.

Whilst I don't particularly like the word "sophisticated" in this context, it would perhaps be difficult to argue that any language other than English has a larger lexis and greater subtlety in expressing relationships (with the possible exception of Volapük for the latter).

English may lack the subtlety of languages such as Javanese for conveying relative social status, but let's remember than when Indonesia was seeking a national language it deliberately eschewed Javanese because of its obsession with social status, and chose the more democratic Melayu. Conveying such status is often perceived as a demerit.

*And on this point, I'm rather wondering whether this posting will be deleted by the site's moderators.

[kaorop]

I have been slowly working my way through this, as others have pointed out

some of this stuff is quite dry and technical reading and some way over my head.

[CaptHaddock]

Attempts at explaining why one language is more "sophisticated" than another simply reveal the cultural bias of the questioner and show a lack of intellectual sophistication.

This smacks of the dogma that all races are equal, that all cultures are morally equivalent. It has become politically incorrect to state that, on average, Negroes are less intelligent than Caucasians, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary. It is also now apparently unacceptable to state that certain religions incite violence, and aren't a religion of peace - again, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Political correctness is stifling free thought and free discussion*.

Whilst I don't particularly like the word "sophisticated" in this context, it would perhaps be difficult to argue that any language other than English has a larger lexis and greater subtlety in expressing relationships (with the possible exception of Volapük for the latter).

English may lack the subtlety of languages such as Javanese for conveying relative social status, but let's remember than when Indonesia was seeking a national language it deliberately eschewed Javanese because of its obsession with social status, and chose the more democratic Melayu. Conveying such status is often perceived as a demerit.

*And on this point, I'm rather wondering whether this posting will be deleted by the site's moderators.

Well, well, an old-fashioned blacks-are-inferior racist. Where do you like to get your racist "evidence" from? The Grand Kleagle of the KKK? Or will you be referencing social scientists of the caliber of Heinrich Himmler?

Far be it from me to attempt to acquaint you with the 21st century. Welcome to a permanent spot on my ignore list.

[AyG]

Well, well, an old-fashioned blacks-are-inferior racist. Where do you like to get your racist "evidence" from? The Grand Kleagle of the KKK? Or will you be referencing social scientists of the caliber of Heinrich Himmler?

Far be it from me to attempt to acquaint you with the 21st century. Welcome to a permanent spot on my ignore list.

I didn't say that blacks are inferior. I said that "on average, Negroes are less intelligent than Caucasians".

If you choose to conflate "less intelligent" with "blacks-are-inferior", who's the racist here?

In fact, despite being, on average, less intelligent (and it is on average), Negroes typically outperform in some kinds of activity, including some sporting events. In that respect they are (on average) superior.

I'd like to think that in the 21st century that facts, data and scientific evidence are supreme, rather than vague (and totally displaced) notions of racial equality.

And as for a permanent spot on your ignore list, well, thank you for confirming that your mind is totally closed to ideas that conflict with your weltanschauung.

In the meantime, if your mind isn't totally shuttered, try reading "The Bell Curve".

[Johpa]

This smacks of the dogma that all races are equal, that all cultures are morally equivalent.

You are conflating nature with nurture, biology with culture. All humans share the same DNA and the same brain with statistically insignificant differences that impact such things as hair color. Any newborn child born anywhere on the globe can be taken and raised anywhere else on the planet and will learn the language of that locale without any formal instruction, beginning at a very early age indeed. The judging of such things as morality, intelligence and such are subjective and culturally based and culturally biased. (And I respect your right to be subjective on such issues as I certainly do not shy away from being subjective.) And I suspect that the interaction between culture and nature can select, in Darwinian terms, for some small specific mutations that prefer one learning style over another. But those are small statistical variations: you can test one cultures intelligence with a test created by another culture and note small statistical differences but you also see that there still remain statistically significant numbers that score in the top-most percentile.

[SlyAnimal]

Please keep the discussion on topic

If you'd like to debate this side point, please create a seperate topic in a relevant section for discussion of it (and be careful to abide by the forum rules while doing so).