Israel declares seven-hour Gaza truce

[Pattszero]

Your attempt to justify this action under the cloak of democracy is a disgrace.

Putting a stop to the thousands of rockets and mortars fired into Israel is all the justification needed for this campaign. The civilian deaths are the responsibility of Hamas.

This conflict was NOT about stopping the rockets. They had virtually dried up to a trickle ....ONE a week, for the previous 3 weeks....

What nonsense. And for the months of rockets attacks before that? Israel was more than justified, attempting to destroy as much terrorist infrastructure as possible.

Yes it was - but not by murdering civilians.

[Johpa]

This conflict was NOT about stopping the rockets. They had virtually dried up to a trickle ....ONE a week, for the previous 3 weeks....

What nonsense. And for the months of rockets attacks before that? Israel was more than justified, attempting to destroy as much terrorist infrastructure as possible.

Yes it was - but not by murdering civilians.

And how exactly would you devise a tactic that would destroy the infrastructure of an opponent that is dedicated to your eradication that intentionally builds and maintains its military infrastructure in heavily populated urban areas?

Collateral damage (civilian deaths) is part of modern asymmetric warfare. We have seen this is Iraq, in Afghanistan, and in Pakistan. I believe the 2nd Battle of Fallujah in 2004 resulted in over 6,000 civilian casualties. Nobody is intentionally murdering these civilians, that is nonsense. On the other hand, nobody is able to come up with alternative tactics. Lamenting these civilian deaths may provide some with some solace, but such laments will not prevent further deaths in the future. As long as there is a faction that will engage and fire upon an opponent based within a civilian population there will be civilian casualties. In my mind the solution is clear, and that is to engage in non-violent protest a la the Maha-atama Mohandas Gandhi. Alas, that is not the way of the sword of prophets.

[Pattszero]

This conflict was NOT about stopping the rockets. They had virtually dried up to a trickle ....ONE a week, for the previous 3 weeks....

What nonsense. And for the months of rockets attacks before that? Israel was more than justified, attempting to destroy as much terrorist infrastructure as possible.

Yes it was - but not by murdering civilians.

And how exactly would you devise a tactic that would destroy the infrastructure of an opponent that is dedicated to your eradication that intentionally builds and maintains its military infrastructure in heavily populated urban areas?

Collateral damage (civilian deaths) is part of modern asymmetric warfare. We have seen this is Iraq, in Afghanistan, and in Pakistan. I believe the 2nd Battle of Fallujah in 2004 resulted in over 6,000 civilian casualties. Nobody is intentionally murdering these civilians, that is nonsense. On the other hand, nobody is able to come up with alternative tactics. Lamenting these civilian deaths may provide some with some solace, but such laments will not prevent further deaths in the future. As long as there is a faction that will engage and fire upon an opponent based within a civilian population there will be civilian casualties. In my mind the solution is clear, and that is to engage in non-violent protest a la the Maha-atama Mohandas Gandhi. Alas, that is not the way of the sword of prophets.

The IDF would have overran Gaza within 48 hours.

All Israel has done is to turn on a new recruitment tap for their enemies.

Not very clever.

[dexterm]

Your attempt to justify this action under the cloak of democracy is a disgrace.

Putting a stop to the thousands of rockets and mortars fired into Israel is all the justification needed for this campaign. The civilian deaths are the responsibility of Hamas.

This conflict was NOT about stopping the rockets. They had virtually dried up to a trickle ....ONE a week, for the previous 3 weeks....

What nonsense. And for the months of rockets attacks before that? Israel was more than justified, attempting to destroy as much terrorist infrastructure as possible.

So Netanyahu has a delayed reaction short fuse??? He launches an invasion of Gaza in a period of relative calm killing over 400 innocent children and sacrificing 67 Israelis to retaliate against something that happened months before??

Edited August 7, 2014 by dexterm

[dexterm]

This conflict was NOT about stopping the rockets. They had virtually dried up to a trickle ....ONE a week, for the previous 3 weeks....

What nonsense. And for the months of rockets attacks before that? Israel was more than justified, attempting to destroy as much terrorist infrastructure as possible.

Yes it was - but not by murdering civilians.

And how exactly would you devise a tactic that would destroy the infrastructure of an opponent that is dedicated to your eradication that intentionally builds and maintains its military infrastructure in heavily populated urban areas?

Collateral damage (civilian deaths) is part of modern asymmetric warfare. We have seen this is Iraq, in Afghanistan, and in Pakistan. I believe the 2nd Battle of Fallujah in 2004 resulted in over 6,000 civilian casualties. Nobody is intentionally murdering these civilians, that is nonsense. On the other hand, nobody is able to come up with alternative tactics. Lamenting these civilian deaths may provide some with some solace, but such laments will not prevent further deaths in the future. As long as there is a faction that will engage and fire upon an opponent based within a civilian population there will be civilian casualties. In my mind the solution is clear, and that is to engage in non-violent protest a la the Maha-atama Mohandas Gandhi. Alas, that is not the way of the sword of prophets.

It's all built up area..one of the densest populated areas in the world. There is nowhere safe for civilians to escape to, and when they do, Israel bombs it.

Perhaps Israel could have provided a large arena and asked Hamas to line up in neat rows ready to be mown down by Apache gunships. Hamas is resisting an invading army. How would you do it?

Don't forget Israel provoked this round of violence and is the invading army pulling the triggers that cause all the civilian casualties.

Edited August 7, 2014 by dexterm

[Morch]

This conflict was NOT about stopping the rockets. They had virtually dried up to a trickle ....ONE a week, for the previous 3 weeks....

What nonsense. And for the months of rockets attacks before that? Israel was more than justified, attempting to destroy as much terrorist infrastructure as possible.

Yes it was - but not by murdering civilians.

And how exactly would you devise a tactic that would destroy the infrastructure of an opponent that is dedicated to your eradication that intentionally builds and maintains its military infrastructure in heavily populated urban areas?

Collateral damage (civilian deaths) is part of modern asymmetric warfare. We have seen this is Iraq, in Afghanistan, and in Pakistan. I believe the 2nd Battle of Fallujah in 2004 resulted in over 6,000 civilian casualties. Nobody is intentionally murdering these civilians, that is nonsense. On the other hand, nobody is able to come up with alternative tactics. Lamenting these civilian deaths may provide some with some solace, but such laments will not prevent further deaths in the future. As long as there is a faction that will engage and fire upon an opponent based within a civilian population there will be civilian casualties. In my mind the solution is clear, and that is to engage in non-violent protest a la the Maha-atama Mohandas Gandhi. Alas, that is not the way of the sword of prophets.

It's all built up area..one of the densest populated areas in the world. There is nowhere safe for civilians to escape to, and when they do, Israel bombs it.

Perhaps Israel could have provided a large arena and asked Hamas to line up in neat rows ready to be mown down by Apache gunships. Hamas is resisting an invading army. How would you do it?

Don't forget Israel provoked this round of violence and is the invading army pulling the triggers that cause all the civilian casualties.

Gaza is hardly all built up area, even being one of the densest populated areas in the world. If you don't want to take my word for it, just have a proper look with Google Earth.

If Hamas wanted to avoid placing its facilities within residential areas, it could have. Would it have been more risky for Hamas, sure. Would it have been safer for the population, sure.

As for the 2nd Battle of Fallujah (mentioned in the post replied to), I seem to recall most civilians actually fled ahead of the fighting, and civilian casualties amounting to a few hundreds, not thousands. Could be wrong.

[Johpa]

The IDF would have overran Gaza within 48 hours.

All Israel has done is to turn on a new recruitment tap for their enemies.

Not very clever.

I have no idea what you are referring to regarding overrunning Gaza. Israel's existence is itself the recruiting tap for their those who would deny the right of Israel to exist. Actions taken by Israel are irrelevant. But I agree that Netanyahu is not particularly clever, rather incompetent tactically by being too impetuous. He could learn from Winston Churchill that sometimes one must sacrifice to achieve certain longer term strategic goals. But that is also a weakness of the entire west now that it has become a shallow culture dominated by instant gratification, a weakness all to easily exploited by the Jihadist movement.

[kblaze]

Intentionally quoted only the Haaretz article, as seemingly it is sort of accepted to represent positions not supportive of the current Israeli government. There are further details in other media sources which to tie the kidnapping operation to specific leaders of Hamas (these reports have been around since almost day one, btw).

Implying that the confession was made under illegal duress can be made, but in that could be applied to any investigation anywhere. If one is in the opinion that this should be taken with a grain of salt, than why place so much trust in Hamas's denials over involvement in the kidnapping? I suggest that if this story was picked up by Haaretz without similar comments added, it could be quite legit.

As for funds - piece of land to hide the bodies, a car, weapons, fake documents for getaway and a reward. Probably some compensation for family as well. Could easily stack up to a considerable sum.

I don't think they needed to buy a piece of land to bury bodies...but yeah reward money seems quite likely.

Regarding the confession, my reasoning for saying that it must be taken with a grain of salt stems from what is known about US interrogations. They are good at extracting confessions, though the nature of the extraction tends to cast the truthfulness of what is learned into doubt. Sometimes what is said is absolutely true, sometimes what is said is just to stop the waterboarding. I suspect that if Israeli secret agents are interrogating terrorism suspects, particularly this case of the heinous kidnapping/murders that inflamed the nation, the methods could be just as extreme.

I have no idea if Hamas leadership were aware of the kidnapping as I haven't seen any details that show a connection. If you have the links handy, I'd like to read more up on it.

[OZEMADE]

I see on the news just now that Hamas could not wait for the latest cease fire to finish they fired two rockets into Israel. Palestinian children on the stage dressed as soldiers as young as 6. I feel sorry for these kids, as they become brain washed and face certain death.

[dexterm]

Morch,

Would it have been safer for the 400 innocent children killed by the IDF if Israel had never invaded at all on the flimsiest of excuses....sure!

[ggold]

Morch,

Would it have been safer for the 400 innocent children killed by the IDF if Israel had never invaded at all on the flimsiest of excuses....sure!

162 children were killed digging the Hamas tunnels. Would it have been safer for those 162 and the 400 innocent children if hamas had not existed.........sure!

[joecoolfrog]

GGold

I have no time for Hamas or its ilk whatsoever, the region would be well rid of them. Why though do you not acknowledge that there is also a faction on the Israeli side who spread hate and have no interest in a peacefull resolution.

[Ulysses G.]

Because it is a tiny minority and nothing compared to the hate-mongers on the Palestinian side. You can always find a few hard-core nuts in every country - but unlike Hamas - they have little effect on over-all Israeli policy.

[coma]

For all you uneducated that continually blame Hamas for the violence in the Middle East, time to think again. Hamas was founded in 1987. The conflict stretches way back to 1947. When Hamas was non existent. They only common dominator from 1947 [the start of conflict] all the way through to the present is, guess who ????

ISRAEL.

[uptheos]

Hamas rockets

Up into the sky a hundred there goes

Where they will land nobody knows

Or really seems to care.

[Ulysses G.]

For all you uneducated that continually blame Hamas for the violence in the Middle East, time to think again. Hamas was founded in 1987. The conflict stretches way back to 1947. When Hamas was non existent. They only common dominator from 1947 [the start of conflict] all the way through to the present is, guess who ????

ISRAEL.

Talk about "uneducated". You have a rather warped sense of historical perspective. Hamas came along very late in the game. The violence started with Arabs attacking Jews in the early 1900s, LONG before the state of Israel was declared. In fact, much of the reason for the UN's two state solution was the Jews finally started fighting back and everything was spinning out of control. The Jews accepted the UN deal, the Arabs refused and declared war in Israel. They got their butts kicked and the rest is history.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[coma]

For all you uneducated that continually blame Hamas for the violence in the Middle East, time to think again. Hamas was founded in 1987. The conflict stretches way back to 1947. When Hamas was non existent. They only common dominator from 1947 [the start of conflict] all the way through to the present is, guess who ????

ISRAEL.

Talk about "uneducated". You have a rather warped sense of historical perspective. The violence started with Arabs attacking Jews in the early 1900s, LONG before the state of Israel was declared. In fact, much of the reason for the UN's two state solution was the Jews finally started fighting back and everything was spinning out of control. The Jews accepted the UN deal, the Arabs refused and declared war in Israel. They got their butts kicked and the rest is history.

WOW! An entire post without any reference to Hamas. I am well impressed.

[Ulysses G.]

You do realize that the entire thread concerns Hamas? I amended my post to keep it - sort of - on topic.

[dexterm]

Because it is a tiny minority and nothing compared to the hate-mongers on the Palestinian side. You can always find a few hard-core nuts in every country - but unlike Hamas - they have little effect on over-all Israeli policy.

LOL... I really did. You brought a little bit of cheer into my day, UG.

Have we been reduced to this ridiculous state of debate..

Yeah, but, your hate mongers are bigger than my hate mongers.

...I'm still

[Ulysses G.]

I'm not surprised that you are so easily amused. There is not a country of earth without "hate mongers". However, it is very unusual to be governed by nothing else - like Gaza is with Hamas in charge.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Intentionally quoted only the Haaretz article, as seemingly it is sort of accepted to represent positions not supportive of the current Israeli government. There are further details in other media sources which to tie the kidnapping operation to specific leaders of Hamas (these reports have been around since almost day one, btw).

Implying that the confession was made under illegal duress can be made, but in that could be applied to any investigation anywhere. If one is in the opinion that this should be taken with a grain of salt, than why place so much trust in Hamas's denials over involvement in the kidnapping? I suggest that if this story was picked up by Haaretz without similar comments added, it could be quite legit.

As for funds - piece of land to hide the bodies, a car, weapons, fake documents for getaway and a reward. Probably some compensation for family as well. Could easily stack up to a considerable sum.

I don't think they needed to buy a piece of land to bury bodies...but yeah reward money seems quite likely.

Regarding the confession, my reasoning for saying that it must be taken with a grain of salt stems from what is known about US interrogations. They are good at extracting confessions, though the nature of the extraction tends to cast the truthfulness of what is learned into doubt. Sometimes what is said is absolutely true, sometimes what is said is just to stop the waterboarding. I suspect that if Israeli secret agents are interrogating terrorism suspects, particularly this case of the heinous kidnapping/murders that inflamed the nation, the methods could be just as extreme.

I have no idea if Hamas leadership were aware of the kidnapping as I haven't seen any details that show a connection. If you have the links handy, I'd like to read more up on it.

Not sure it would have been smart or easy to get away with, to hide the bodies on someone else land, but cannot find a clear reference that the allegedly bought land was the place actually used. So this bit may or may not be related.

Regarding investigation methods, of course we cannot be sure if these were over the top and beyond accepted norms. But at the same time there is no proof to the contrary. Would be more leaning toward this line of reasoning if information was made available earlier on, though. As a side note, while not being an advocate of physical torture etc., it is worth remembering that even if applying it is wrong, that still does not necessarily mean resulting information is, as well.

As for leadership involvement, two names were mentioned: Saleh al Arouri, and Fathi Hamad. Not saying that connection was proved beyond any shade of doubt, but not far-fetched as some would like to think. As there are various media sources for this (not all English, and some that may be deemed not objective) posters may want to Google independently ((expanded a bit more on this in PM).

Here's a follow up article from Haaretz:

Israel identifies Gaza man who allegedly funded kidnap of three teens The Gaza liaison for the cell suspected of kidnapping and murdering three Israeli teens in the West Bank was Mahmoud Qawasmeh, exiled to the Strip after the 2011 prisoner exchange that freed captive soldier Gilad Shalit.

According to Israeli defense sources, Mahmoud Qawasmeh was responsible for transferring money from Gaza to the West Bank to fund the June 12 kidnapping of Gilad Shaer, Naftali Fraenkel and Eyal Yifrah, whose bodies were found in the Halhul area on June 30. Qawasmeh was doing a 20-year sentence when he was released in 2011.

The website Walla first reported on the link between Qawasmeh and the suspected leader of the cell, his brother Hussam. It said Mahmoud was in contact with activists in Hebron and other West Bank cities such as Tul Karm. Defense officials believe that Hussam, who was arrested by Israeli counterterrorism police in July, had been in contact with other mililtants in Gaza as well.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609846

[Morch]

Morch,

Would it have been safer for the 400 innocent children killed by the IDF if Israel had never invaded at all on the flimsiest of excuses....sure!

Deflection.

What does this have to do with correcting your definitive claim that all of the Gaza Strip is "built up area"? And how is using this bogus claim as reason for Hamas placing its facilities and operations withing densely populated areas not a flimsy excuse?

[Morch]

Because it is a tiny minority and nothing compared to the hate-mongers on the Palestinian side. You can always find a few hard-core nuts in every country - but unlike Hamas - they have little effect on over-all Israeli policy.

A tiny minority?

Hard line right wing parties and politicians play a major role in Israeli coalition and government. They wouldn't be there is they did not have the votes needed to get all them parliament seats. Saying that they have "little effect on over-all Israeli policy" is simply not how things are. And that's without factoring in religious parties attitudes and positions.

Some things said by leaders of these parties, members of parliament, ministers, and indeed, the prime minister, were nothing short of hate-mongering. Sometimes directed at the Hamas, sometimes at Palestinians in general and sometimes at Israeli Arabs.

[Morch]

For all you uneducated that continually blame Hamas for the violence in the Middle East, time to think again. Hamas was founded in 1987. The conflict stretches way back to 1947. When Hamas was non existent. They only common dominator from 1947 [the start of conflict] all the way through to the present is, guess who ????

ISRAEL.

Well, this topic deals mainly with Israel and the Hamas, so obviously Hamas would be often brought up.

I do not think any poster made the claim Hamas was a major player in violence somewhere else in the Middle East.

The conflict goes earlier than 1947, and we are currently discussion one of its present day manifestations.

[Jay Sata]

More bad press for Israel as it fails to win hearts and minds across the globe.

"Tens of thousands of people took to the streets in Britain and in several other cities around the world on Saturday to call for an end to Israeli military action in Gaza.

In London a peaceful protest was organised by the Stop The War coalition. According to police, more than 20,000 people marched from the BBC's offices on Portland Place, via the US embassy to Hyde Park.

<read more>

Source
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/09/gaza-protest-march-london-raise-funds-victims-conflict-israel-palestine

Edited August 11, 2014 by soundman
Fair Use

[Jingthing]

Update on the ACTUAL topic (there is another thread going directly related to "Free Gaza" type global protests) -- New 72 hour "truce" is in effect. We'll see how long this one lasts. A potential chance for more substantive negotiations in Egypt and how to end this current war.

[CBR250]

To Israel that amount of military personnel lost is a huge loss.

Wait until it is all over, and the post mortem on this loss will be weighed by the voters of Israel.

Well, I wish it would affect the voting patterns of Israelis. I fear otherwise. The Israeli voting pattern has been shifting more and more to the right - evidence of the success of the hasbara propaganda machine. People like Netanyahu and Lieberman would once have been seen as right wing fanatics (which they are). Instead, they are the elected leaders of Israel. Doesn't give me much hope of a rational and analytic post-mortem.

Edited August 11, 2014 by CBR250

[Ulysses G.]

The Israeli voting pattern has been shifting more and more to the right - evidence of the success of the hasbara propaganda machine.

"Hasbara" means 'explanation' in Hebrew and practically no one outside Israel uses it except for the committed hate-Israel crew, as some sort of some big conspiracy theory. I did not know what it was until I saw it a few times from the same old posters, so I eventually Googled it. In the context of a government, the more apt translation is 'communications'. All governments engage in this. When we concur with it, we call it 'communications' and when we disagree with it, we call it 'propaganda'. Public relations would be another definition.

What ever it is, Hasbara is aimed at an international audience, mostly in western countries. Anyone who claims that it is dramatically affecting public opinion inside Israel, simply has NO idea of what they are talking about.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Hasbara-public-diplomacy-and-propaganda-358211

Edited August 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

Inflammatory post deleted.

[dexterm]

The Israeli voting pattern has been shifting more and more to the right - evidence of the success of the hasbara propaganda machine.

"Hasbara" means 'explanation' in Hebrew and practically no one outside Israel uses it except for the committed hate-Israel crew, as some sort of some big conspiracy theory. I did not know what it was until I saw it a few times from the same old posters, so I eventually Googled it. In the context of a government, the more apt translation is 'communications'. All governments engage in this. When we concur with it, we call it 'communications' and when we disagree with it, we call it 'propaganda'. Public relations would be another definition.

What ever it is, Hasbara is aimed at an international audience, mostly in western countries. Anyone who claims that it is dramatically affecting public opinion inside Israel, simply has NO idea of what they are talking about.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Hasbara-public-diplomacy-and-propaganda-358211

try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_(Israel) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara_Fellowships for more honest information about hasbara.

Edited August 12, 2014 by dexterm