Circumcision

[Thai-Aust]

Hi

The good thing about this forum is there are many different professions giving their best advice to posters.

My friend has a three years old boy who twice now has had an infection on his penis. You know sometimes boys just don't clean after pee. And he has quite long foreskin that very difficult for a little boy to keep it clean. Some friends suggested that he wouldn't have any more problem if he's been circumcised.

Should my freind have him circumcised or leave it as is. She doesn't have any religious belief in doing so, just for the purpose of hygiene. After reading from many sources from circumcised men themselves she's not sure if this is a good idea.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Thai-Aust

[Sheryl]

There are different views about the advisability of routine circumcision even within the medical profession. However what you are describing would not be a routine circumcision but rather one based on a clear medical indication. From a medical poit of view therefore in this case it would be best, especially as the foreskin is long. Later in life it would put him at above average risk for sexually transmitted diseases including HIV. Also, it could develop a stricture preventing him fro mpeeing and requiring emergency surgery which would be both more difficult and also maybe at an age where it would be more traumatic for him. HOWEVER this is from a physical medical point of view. The other point is psychological. Where is this child going to grow up? Will it be in a culture where most of the boys are uncircumcised, or mixed or mostly circumcised? Because I think boys can feel quite self-conscious if they look different from everyone else. If that is not likely to be the case then I would say go for it.

[chuchok]

It is a serious subject to be either an ant eater or a helmet head.We used to do it at home if we needed a new fan belt for the tractor.......

sorry!

[sbk]

One point to be made if they are living in Thailand is that in general Buddhist men are uncircumcised while Muslim men are circumcised.

[Oleg_Rus]

One point to be made if they are living in Thailand is that in general Buddhist men are uncircumcised while Muslim men are circumcised.

In the mean time, local chinese cirmum'd their kids "just in case" that religion is right. kinda insurance.

the side effect of circum'n is much lower sencetivity of the forehead - which leads to some discomfort in sexual life. I thinks there's a web site called like that - look in the google.

[chuchok]

One point to be made if they are living in Thailand is that in general Buddhist men are uncircumcised while Muslim men are circumcised.

In the mean time, local chinese cirmum'd their kids "just in case" that religion is right. kinda insurance.

the side effect of circum'n is much lower sencetivity of the forehead - which leads to some discomfort in sexual life. I thinks there's a web site called like that - look in the google.

Really?

[Thai-Aust]

Thanks guys, the kid will be growing up in Australia. I don't know the stats. Anyone?

[Oleg_Rus]

Really?

Yep. really. feels like you're using Michelin Condom with extra numb cream

[jumbo]

Forget all the good advise and concentrate on what is nest for the boy.

There are different forms of way they can peform the circumcision so it

is better to get more information on what the surgeon can do for you

Culture, sexfeeling and HIV are all issues that should not matter

as the uy will have more problems wiht this medical condition even

when he is old enough and able to clean properly

I have never heard of this specific issue though so it just could be something

else, did they consult a doctor??

Sheryl

I have seen earlier posts of you on medical issues, but the HIV thing is new

to me, you mean to say that the quantity of skin is a factor??? I mean

when having sex a man's purple friend will be 'perceptive' anyway or do you

think he doesn't take his hat of when entering....bad advise....people with long

foreskin are less average risk regarding AIDS....c'mon lets take the gamble..??

I think unprotected sex with different partners is the issue here not being

circumcised

Oleg

that's usually what people say that are not circumcised, because people that

are (like me) give you a different version.....it feels a whole lot better than before

And I have had it done when I as married already....how about you??

sbk

yeah, but 2.5% is muslim, so you could still be an attraction IF you would show

of your d'ck in public

J

[chuchok]

Really?

Yep. really. feels like you're using Michelin Condom with extra numb cream

Interesting responce.Care to elaborate?

As Sheryl and jumbo have stated, there is enough evidence to suggest that circumcision can reduce the chance of catching STDs.Look it up, you may be surprised.

The biggest problem seems to be that young lads look different to each other.Not a great thing to be teased about.It is a diffucult question that should be answed by proffesionals.

[Rinrada]

Unless there is any serious medical problems (fair enough) I would suggest that that you leave the kids "dick" alone.

He will sort himself out when he gets older and probably thank you for not mutilating him at such a young age.

J.C might have had it done (according to that crazy story book)when he was an infant but it still must be considered child abuse and should NOT be carried out in any Civilized Society (as said Medical reasons ..OK)

[leisurely]

Consult a doctor. See what is in the best interests of the child. Circumscion is not a fashion statement nor a lifestyle choice. That is my 2 baht's worth.

[camerata]

My friend has a three years old boy who twice now has had an infection on his penis. You know sometimes boys just don't clean after pee. And he has quite long foreskin that very difficult for a little boy to keep it clean. Some friends suggested that he wouldn't have any more problem if he's been circumcised.

Should my freind have him circumcised or leave it as is.

Three years old is pretty young to expect a kid to clean under his foreskin properly. But if he keeps getting infections, when he gets older he'll probably be motivated to do it properly. In any case, there may be no more infections, or the infections may reduce as his immune system becomes stronger. Maybe there is some other factor involved in the infections that isn't known now but may be known later, and be controllable.

If he's circumcised now, there's no undoing it. He may well resent it when he grows up and hears that he's lost some of his sensitivity (and there is some loss without a foreskin or frenulum) and looks different from the other guys. From what I've read, quite a few American men do resent having had it done as a baby.

On balance, I don't think parents should take away something nature gave the kid (for a reason!) unless there is a really serious problem. One argument for doing it to kids is that under the foreskin is "dirty" and that supposedly a foreskin increases the chance of penile cancer. The counter-argument is that a vagina is an even dirtier organ, yet no one is talking about cutting those out of baby girls. A urologist would tell you that after circumcision the tissue is exposed and gradually oxidizes, making it harder for some bacteria/viruses/fungi to penetrate - and it's mostly true - but a guy who has problems (say, recurrent thrush infections) can always make his own decision about circumcision later in life.

Oh, and while I'm on the subject, recurrent thrush and other fungal infections can be due in large part to drinking milk in Thailand which is laced with penicillin (given to sick cows). Switch to UHT (which breaks down the antibiotic) before parting with your foreskin. Seriously.

[Sheryl]

The OP suggests that the foreskin is unusualy long and that there have been 2 infections already which suggests that there may be medical indication for circumcision.

And yes, lack of circumcision does increase the risk of HIV and other STIs but of course only if one is having unprotected sex with infected people to begin with...it doesn't CAUSE HIV or other STIs, just increases susceptibility if exposed because the foreskin proivdes a nice warm moist spot for bugs to hang out & multiply...which is why hygiene is so important if one opts not to be circumcised (and probably the origin of the Jewish & Muslim requirement for circumcision). It also, by the way, significantly increases the risk of penile cancer, but the incidence of that is so low in any case that there is no consensus on recommending circumcision for that reason alone.

As for the effect on sex...it doesn't cause discomfort during sex to be circumcised (unless the job was seriously botched somehow!). The usual complaint is that it decreases sensation. The foreskin provides protection from stimuli other than during sex, allowing the skin inside to remain hyper-sensitive. Naturally if the foreskin is removed, there will be frequent contact with clothes, bedsheets etc and as a compensatory mechanism the skin will become less sensitive to light touch. Nonetheless there are millions of circumcised men who seem to have no problem enjoying sex! Of course if circumcision is done after sexual maturity, when the man has gotten used to having a foreskin, then he's going to feel the difference. But most males who are circumcised from the get-go seem to adjust just fine.

If the child is going to be raised in Australia and if Australia is at all similiar to the US in tis regard there will be a mixture of circ'd and uncirç'd kids around so embarrassment in the locker room wouldn't be a big issue either way. But you Aussies out there would know best on this point. I do think the embarassment factor is important, don't want the kid to grow up feeling odd or being teased.

I assume since the parents didn't opt for routine circumcision at birth that they prefer not to do it unless necessary. The question is, what level of necessity? Advantages of doing it now: no more infections, lower risk of STIs when the kid is of age, lower risk of cancer of penis (althiugh the risk in any case is very small) and avoid the risk that repeat infections would result in urethral structures requiring painful and more invasive treatments than a mere circumcision...and also avoid the risk of having to undergo circumcision at a later age when it is quite likely to involve some pyschological trauma. If I was the mother these last 2 points are what would concern me the most. Outside of cultures where circumcision is an established puberty rite, you don't want your kid to have to undergo it once he's old enough to have paid much attention to his genitals or started masturbating (pyschological reason not physiological).

Main thing of importance is that if they choose against circumcision, they need to start being much more careful regarding attention to hygiene under the foreskin now, and teach him to do likewise when he's old enough. As Camerata said, 3 years is too young to expect a kid to be able to handle this on his own.

"Balanoposthitis (generalized inflammation of the glans penis and foreskin) is commonly caused by bacterial and yeast infections beneath the foreskin of the uncircumcised male. Such inflammation predisposes to meatal stricture, phimosis, paraphimosis, and cancer."

Edited July 6, 2006 by Sheryl

[Plus]

Coming from uncircumsized society I absolutely abhor cutting foreskin off. Who thought that up first? Some ***edited for objectionable content*** down in Egypt two thousand years ago?

It seems that circumsision is a religious/cultural issue and each side has lots of medical or practical arguments to support its stance in countries where it is practiced, but it looks completely unnatural thing to do to outsiders.

**Edited by sbk**

[ArtfulD]

Really?

Yep. really. feels like you're using Michelin Condom with extra numb cream

As a bonus then you can last a lot longer

Wouldnt worry about what other boys have either...hopefully your son wont be in situations of numerous naked men comparing schlongs.

[greenwanderer108]

If he's circumcised now, there's no undoing it. He may well resent it when he grows up and hears that he's lost some of his sensitivity (and there is some loss without a foreskin or frenulum) and looks different from the other guys. From what I've read, quite a few American men do resent having had it done as a baby.

How can you miss-resent something that you had as a baby (how many babies are experimenting with the sexual sensitivity of their penis??) ? Because someone tells you that had you not been circumsized as a baby, your sex life would have been better??? I'm just baffled how this is possible...All my life, I've never knew I was missing something big because I was circumsized before I can remember....that is untill now...

and all this time, I thought that the resentment I did have about sex was because I couldn't get enough of it...now I know it's really because I was circumsized and it might have been more sensitive-fulfilling....

Edited July 6, 2006 by greenwanderer108

[meadish_sweetball]

Really?

Yep. really. feels like you're using Michelin Condom with extra numb cream

As a bonus then you can last a lot longer

Wouldnt worry about what other boys have either...hopefully your son wont be in situations of numerous naked men comparing schlongs.

It probably isnt the practice everywhere, but in Sweden boys shower in communcal showers at school after PE classes, it is common practice to sit naked in the sauna, and the vast majority of Swedes are uncircumsized (everyone I knew in my home town). As a parent I would think twice first before circumsizing my kid in such an environment as it could draw a lot of unwelcome comments from the other kids.

I was circumsized for medical reasons at the age of 27 (frenulum burst during too rough sex and it healed wrong - the foreskin become so tight it was painful to have sex), so I have had the opportunity to try both circumsized and uncircumsized. Hygiene is not much of an issue if the parents teach their son to clean under the foreskin - my mother helped my clean it before I was old enough to do it myself.

Losing part of the frenulum does indeed mean a less intense sexual experience, so if I could have kept my foreskin at the time, I would.

[Thai-Aust]

I guess most men object doing it, all in all because of sexuality reasons. Thanks for those of you who made your comments here, it's unvaluable.

[Sheryl]

I think it would also be possible to have the foreskin modified rather than completely removed, i.e. to correct the excessive length. It should be easily retractable, if it is not then it is too tight and further medical problems loom. Normally for a too tight foreskin the treatment is circumcision but one could ask about other options such as gradual stretching or a slight incision to release the tension, if the parents strongly want to avoid circumcision.

[Oleg_Rus]

Coming from uncircumsized society I absolutely abhor cutting foreskin off. Who thought that up first? Some ***post edited for offensive comment*** down in Egypt two thousand years ago?

It seems that circumsision is a religious/cultural issue and each side has lots of medical or practical arguments to support its stance in countries where it is practiced, but it looks completely unnatural thing to do to outsiders.

Welcome, Mr Shikelgrubber, haven't seen your *** pacist face long time

how's "mein kampf" reading ?

[leftcross]

i've read this thread with interest as my doctor advised me to get circumcised.

i'm not sure about it as the thought of something going wrong and me losing my #### has put me off.

he said it is a simple procedure and you can do it in an hour. has any adult male had this done in BKK?

[Oleg_Rus]

i've read this thread with interest as my doctor advised me to get circumcised.

i'm not sure about it as the thought of something going wrong and me losing my #### has put me off.

he said it is a simple procedure and you can do it in an hour. has any adult male had this done in BKK?

One german-protestant gent at the age of 40 something did it. Cost 12K, surgery was almost painfull, but for next month he walked like pingwin. He claimed big difference in intercourse sence.

As I heard, he made another kid a year ago.

btw, there are some wierdos who apply for actually re-attaching their foreskin, mostly gays. Figures...

[Scott]

Difficult to believe so many strong opinions on this one.

If the kid has a medical problem, get it solved and completely. It's easier and I doubt that he will have problems with his mates. I think most males in Aus. aren't circumcised, but enough are that he won't stand out that much.

I highly doubt he will have problems because of it.

You really don't want to mess around with his health and what appears to be a recurring problem. I doubt that this is just a cleanliness problem because lots of boys don't take care and don't have a problem.

[Plus]

Let me rephrase it - two-three thousand years ago people living in deserts of Egypt experienced hygiene problems due to lack of water that lead to constant infections and were source of irritation. So they thought cutting off foreskin would help. Conditions are different now.

I doubt there's any divine reading to it as God wouldn't create people with design fault like that.

[percy2]

"Balanoposthitis (generalized inflammation of the glans penis and foreskin) is commonly caused by bacterial and yeast infections beneath the foreskin of the uncircumcised male. Such inflammation predisposes to meatal stricture, phimosis, paraphimosis, and cancer."

.

What they don't tell you is that many of the problems are caused by washing with soap. Just cleaning with fresh water is adequate and will remove most problems.

Smegma (a soap like substance) produced under the fore skin helps prevent many STD's. So don't chop it off too quickly.

I'd be interested if there are any stats on the penile cancer thing.

If its a choice between education and surgery surely there is only one winner.

[camerata]

i've read this thread with interest as my doctor advised me to get circumcised.

i'm not sure about it as the thought of something going wrong and me losing my #### has put me off.

he said it is a simple procedure and you can do it in an hour. has any adult male had this done in BKK?

A friend of mine had his done in Bangkok with no problems, but this was 15 years ago. It's usually done under general anaesthetic. Expect a fair bit of pain for three days (need to stay at home) and to be walking funny for a while. Should be ready for action in about a month.

[Sheryl]

I'd be interested if there are any stats on the penile cancer thing.

Incidence of penile cancer varies from about .3 to 2 per 100,000 men, depending on the country. In other words very rare. The odds ratio for being uncircumcised is about .37, that is to say, a man is about 37% more likely to get it if he is uncircumcised than if he is circumcised, but one is talking very small odds in either case which is why routine circumcision is not generally recommended on grounds of prevention of penile cancer.

The increased risk is thought to be due to the HPV virus which is thought to play a role in cancer of the penis just as it does in cancer of the cervix. For which reason it has also been theorized that male circumcision would also decrease the risk of cervical cancer in women, the studies so far suggest that it may but that the effect is small.

Meticulous hygiene can largely eliminate the increased HPV risk associuated with non-circumcision. (so can safe sex, as HPV is an STI) The greatest risk is the combination of no circumcision, poor hygiene and promiscuity without protection (condoms).

(For anyone out there with HPV, dont panic -- only minority of men with HPV get penile cancer)

[Amir]

There are more and more people who are doing circumsision for personal reasons, medical or religious.

I have a friend who had the same problem like this little boy (frequent infections, long forskin... and even problem for sexual relationships) he had to do it when he was 28. Ok, he could not practice sport, walk strait and so on during a month, but now he feels much better.

The thing with the diseases and infections (lower risk) is true as circumsised people doesn't have the foreskin so no moisture under it (the moisture environment keeps a lot of viruses and bacterias alive and allow them to develop).

I think that circumsision is not a matter of religion (not anymore) or of beeing different from others but more a matter of hygiene and health. Added to this, there are very clean hospitals which are practicing circumsision in a very clean way. Not the old muslim method with the knife, all the village watching and the dust arround, like they did to my cousin in the deep egyptian country-side (don't worry, they have now very goos hospitals in egypt... only in some country-sides some informations are missing ).

Anyway, i think if this little boy gets circumsised, he will not regret it later...

[jumbo]

Losing part of the frenulum does indeed mean a less intense sexual experience, so if I could have kept my foreskin at the time, I would.

There is a big difference between a circumcision and taking away your frenulum...

the frenulum is looked at as being the male clit'ris so one shold not have that removed and with general circumcison it will not be removed

feel sorry for you pal''but they could have stretched it up for sure...

J