ATM 'power overload' may have killed toddler

[allan michaud]

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Seriously, maybe Junta could address the entire Thai electrical wiring is dangerous thing. First off, I am very saddened to hear about the death of a toddler. RIP. Unfortunately anyone who has consistently read Thai news knows that this is not the first time people are getting electrocuted. It's almost shockingly (no pun intended) a regular occurrence.

From what I have seen the majority of electricians in Thailand would struggle to wire a plug and certainly have no idea what an 'earth' is. Education or the lack of it, as usual.

[Crossy]

An off topic (9/11 conspiracy theory) post removed.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Surely the manufacturer of the machines, which must be a reputable company, would have insulated every single part to eliminate even the slightest chance of an accident? Is there such a thing as going too far when ensuring safety of electrical things? Could the answer to this accident lie in a backyard techie smartypants type fiddling around inside the machine because he knows best how to solve problems, not the manufacturer?

(RIP, sweet angel.)

There is no protection against reversing the live and neutral into any building.

It disconnects any fusing and safety devices, and is very common in Thailand.

They did it on my new build house, and many others in the moobaan.

[dieter1]

"...in this instance, was caused by the electricity that had been going to the signs of the nearby gas station's signs was suddenly diverted to the ATM when the power to the signs was suddenly turned off. "

sorry "rametindallas", I think (for me) this is "nonsense"

I think, you are not an electrical engineer...

max. voltage should be 220 V and many consumer devices can lead to lower (!) voltage ! So the shut down of these devices will only lead back to normal voltage (220 V).

"This part of the story is unbelievable" right!

"Power overload has nothing to do with a metal cases etc. becoming active, this is a function of a fault or poor installation. " right!!

"220vac will generally throw a person away from what they touch"

sorry "smedly", this is wrong: the electric shock can paralyse your motoric system (no control of muscles ), especially with wet hands, water involved

the electric shock cant "throw you away" (how should this happen?). It is your own reaction, if your system is still able to do this!)

sorry, but these kind of expressions are pure unprofessional and lead to wrong conclusions

see the tragic accidents, where someone wanted to help an electrocutes one and himself got killed ...

"Most fatalities with electricity are were the person cannot disconnect from the source"

right, reason is, the electric current is that high, because the electric resistance is that low (f.e.wet hand and feet, no shoes) and the electric is going through the whole buddy (f.e. from the hand down to the feet)

thats the reason, many people in Thailand get electrocuted while having a shower, be in/near a swimming pool, walking in the street while raining, standing in water...

Edited August 17, 2014 by dieter1

[Tokay]

farangs are not allowed to work as electrician or investigator.

And that is why Thailand will always be a third world country. They (and workers surrounding nations) are generally too unskilled and unqualified to do things correctly. Their xenophobia won't allow them to permit foreigners to do jobs they are unable to do. So here you are, one mess after another mess, after another mess, because nobody here is able or willing to do something right the first time.

[MaxYakov]

Perhaps we could all do with a review/research of Electrocution - Wiki, starting with the medical aspects:

"Death can occur from any shock that carries enough current to stop the heart. Low currents (70–700 mA) usually trigger fibrillation in the heart, which is reversible via defibrillator but can be fatal without help. Currents as low as 30 mA AC or 300-500 mA DC applied to the body surface can cause fibrillation. Large currents (> 1 A) cause permanent damage via burns, and cellular damage. The voltage necessary to create current of a given level through the body varies widely with the resistance of the skin; wet or sweaty skin or broken skin can allow a larger current to flow. Whether an electric current is fatal is also dependent on the path it takes through the body, which depends in turn on the points at which the current enters and leaves the body. The current path must usually include either the heart or the brain to be fatal."

The different effects of Direct Current vs Alternating Current (and frequency, including radio frequencies) are not mentioned.

Edited August 17, 2014 by MaxYakov

[tingtongteesood]

Why it happened is not so important as the fact it was allowed to happen, they knew there was a problem and they did nothing to fix it, that machine should have been out of order with a big sign stating as much on it at the time of this incident. Heads should roll for this and the bank should be held accountable and dished out a massive fine to make sure they will remember this and it will be less likely to happen again.....

[Bung]

A " power overload from a nearby service station turning on its lights" .......

They all use fluorescent lights in the signs, 20watts max.

100 lights being turned on x 20 watts is 2000 watts.

That is two electric kettles worth of power.

That is 9 amps on what would be a 10 amp protected light curcuit or 15 amp protected power curcuit.

One pissing 10 amp curcuit breaker could easily handle 100 lights being turned on at once.

[kriswillems]

No grounding and no earth leak protection - the combination is deadly - but it's the standard in Thailand.

[GAZZPA]

Another piece of terrible reporting. What on earth does power overload mean,, absolutely nothing as far as I can tell. The problem with the ATM is an electrical fault and no earthing to protect people, simple as that. Any competent electrician would have found that out by now. It is nothing to do with all the lights being switched off and a "power overload" getting into the ATM,, what a load of cobblers.

It's that Thai face thing again trying to deflect any blame,,,

The problem I have with this kind of crap reporting is a child has lost her life. They owe it to the family to stop talking rubbish and publishing nonsense in the press and to tell the truth. Then produce a plan of action to ensure that it never happens again and no more kids are killed.

RIP to the poor little girl and condolences to the family.

[Basil B]

Electrical engineer did the investigation of the machine but no mention on correct wiring like earths, what a joke "Electrical Engineer" Ha Ha. One thing puzzles me they say 194.4 volts surely they are 220~240V. Anyway one simple thing that should be fitted is a power surge protector. All the multi socket block I brought from New Zealand are all power surge protected.

I have often seen voltages of about 195v, often this is when something is being driven by a back up inverter, possibly because it is not a true sine wave, also one should be aware that when we talk about 220-240v AC that is RMS and the true peek voltage is about 340v.

Clearly this is a earthing issue or more to the point the lack of earthing, could be an issue with other equipment with-in the bank that is earth along with the ATM that's just not connected to earth.

[smedly]

farangs are not allowed to work as electrician or investigator.

And that is why Thailand will always be a third world country. They (and workers surrounding nations) are generally too unskilled and unqualified to do things correctly. Their xenophobia won't allow them to permit foreigners to do jobs they are unable to do. So here you are, one mess after another mess, after another mess, because nobody here is able or willing to do something right the first time.

I agree with some of what you say but don't agree with most of it

First it's about education and actually having the ability to educate, this is were Thailand fails but there is so much money being channelled into uneducated pockets through greed and corruption is why changes are needed

Everything that Thailand does or has that even resembles the west is done by foreigners expertise - they actually do nothing for themselves and anything they attempt on their own is a dramatic failure - they rely 100% on foreign investment and expertise except for something they can throw in the ground and put water on

They are at least a generation behind countries like S- Korea Malaysia and Japan because they simply don't want the assistance and investment - Thailand the Hub of none existent Hubs but it makes a good headline

You have some good doctors here but they got their education and experience in the west - weird thing is they will let doctors etc go to the west and gain the expertise as long as it's not in Thailand but they won't allow experts to openly come here to educate - large construction companies will do work here - they will build stuff that Thais cannot build - they will make things that Thais cannot make but 51% of it is Thailand so a Toyota must be Thai

Electricians ? - safety standards - apart from not knowing or wanting to know how - it will cost a lot more money to do and that will remove billions from the deep greedy pockets

The result of all the above is a 3rd world country that refuses to advance and the ultimate cost is the life of a child using a public utility or a construction crew getting buried under tonnes of rubble

Time they woke up

[GaryB1263]

RIP sweetie.

[wprime]

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Of course we will never see the actual report.

So the test results on the earthing integrity of the machine and its installation, the operation (or presence) of the RCD or any other safety related checks will never be known.

We just get to see 'power overload' which is plain rubbish, or really, really poor translation.

Nice to see someone knows electricity, with a power overload, the on-board protect system should shut the ATM down, the only way anyone could be electrocuted is by poor installed, maintained RDC and earth strapping, all in the above

Even without an onboard protection system, a power overload would damage the power supply and that would be the end of it. If the voltage was high enough, a circuit may form through an insulator (probably air in this case) to the metal frame of the ATM but then the metal frame would then have a very high potential. Considering it was measured at only 190V (only marginally lower than the AC source), it is far more likely that a circuit had formed in between the source and the metal frame and the metal frame was not well grounded.

[doctorproc156]

What a BS answer, putting the blame on the mains the ATM was plugged in to. All ATMs are plugged into a UPS system which regulates the voltage going in to the machine. This machines outer casing was not earthed properly, plain and simple. It is totally the fault of Siam commercial and I hope the parents sue the hell out of the bank and lobby the junta to take serious action for better electrical safety. Too many people have died in Thailand from electrocution of public installations, something you never hear of in other more developed countries.

Unfortunately for everyone, the people currently running the country are the same people who own Siam commercial bank.

Edited August 17, 2014 by doctorproc156

[Estrada]

And here was silly old me thinking in most cases it is amperage and not voltage that caused such injury and death.

No mention of amps at all in this forum, only voltages... surprises me that!

It is the Voltage that kills since you need at least 40milliamps to pass through the heart to kill you. Since the skin has a certain resistance, the 110Volt system is less likely to give you anything more than a tingle. 50Volts and lower are voltages that will not sufficient current to flow to cause death.

The problem in Thailand is that they adopted the American/Japanese two wire system which is designed for 110Volts and then used it on 220/240Volts without an earth.

[Bung]

I have heard of two Schoolkids being electrocuted by cold water drinking fountains in my time here.

Same thing, no grounding. Such a simple thing to do when installing something but to people trying to do everything on the cheap and save 10 baht it seems an uneccessary waste of money.

Standards need to be made, taught in the technical colleges and enforced. Improper installations resulting in injury or death will bring about fines and or / jail time.

Just as it is does the West. when I did my electrical apprenticeship in Australia we were given a big book on standards to study and were tested over and over on its contents with the fear of manslaughter if we installed something wrong and someone got killed.

Come on Junta, after that girl was raped and murdered on the train you introduced tougher measures, surely you can do the same for electrical standards in Thailand?

[Bung]

And here was silly old me thinking in most cases it is amperage and not voltage that caused such injury and death.

No mention of amps at all in this forum, only voltages... surprises me that!

It is the Voltage that kills since you need at least 40milliamps to pass through the heart to kill you. Since the skin has a certain resistance, the 110Volt system is less likely to give you anything more than a tingle. 50Volts and lower are voltages that will not sufficient current to flow to cause death.

The problem in Thailand is that they adopted the American/Japanese two wire system which is designed for 110Volts and then used it on 220/240Volts without an earth.

It is my understanding that the American system is two wire with 55v on each wire to give 110v where everywhere else is two wire with one at 220v and the other at zero volts. That is why the American system is safer as likely you will get a 55v and x amps passing through you not 220v and x amps. It is why 220 volt countries have strict installation rules and America does not, it is not illegal to do your own electrical work n America where it is in Australia. Electricians must be licensed.

[Estrada]

Electrical engineer did the investigation of the machine but no mention on correct wiring like earths, what a joke "Electrical Engineer" Ha Ha. One thing puzzles me they say 194.4 volts surely they are 220~240V. Anyway one simple thing that should be fitted is a power surge protector. All the multi socket block I brought from New Zealand are all power surge protected.

Ever heard of volt drop? You get from time to time in Thailand due to problems with the power distribution system.

[Estrada]

And here was silly old me thinking in most cases it is amperage and not voltage that caused such injury and death.

No mention of amps at all in this forum, only voltages... surprises me that!

It is the Voltage that kills since you need at least 40milliamps to pass through the heart to kill you. Since the skin has a certain resistance, the 110Volt system is less likely to give you anything more than a tingle. 50Volts and lower are voltages that will not sufficient current to flow to cause death.

The problem in Thailand is that they adopted the American/Japanese two wire system which is designed for 110Volts and then used it on 220/240Volts without an earth.

It is my understanding that the American system is two wire with 55v on each wire to give 110v where everywhere else is two wire with one at 220v and the other at zero volts. That is why the American system is safer as likely you will get a 55v and x amps passing through you not 220v and x amps. It is why 220 volt countries have strict installation rules and America does not, it is not illegal to do your own electrical work n America where it is in Australia. Electricians must be licensed.

In America it is a 110V system centre tapped to earth at the transformer to give 55V. As a qualified Electrical Engineer in the UK I can no longer wire my own houses and must use a licenced Electrician, despite having more experience and qualifications. Secondly, the Electricity Board will only allow connection of the Electrical supply once inspected by a licenced inspector. In Thailand unqualified rice farmers are allowed to work as electricians beween planting seasons. Some are prettty good, but they have no academic trainiing as electricians. Hence no junction boxes, just twist the wires together and tape them up!

[Crossy]

It is my understanding that the American system is two wire with 55v on each wire to give 110v where everywhere else is two wire with one at 220v and the other at zero volts. That is why the American system is safer as likely you will get a 55v and x amps passing through you not 220v and x amps. It is why 220 volt countries have strict installation rules and America does not, it is not illegal to do your own electrical work n America where it is in Australia. Electricians must be licensed.

Nearly.

The 55-0-55 system is used on building sites around the world (the yellow transformers) for the exact safety reasons you cite.

The US uses 110-0-110 so that high power devices (water heaters, stoves, dryers etc.) can be connected as 220V and so don't draw massive currents and thus require large cables.

At only 110V relative to ground the US system is theoretically safer in regards of electric shock, but the doubling of current for 110V loads increases the chances of a poor joint overheating and causing a fire. The US uses AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interruptors) to detect these fizzing joints and open the circuit. If anyone knows a source of 220V 2-wire AFCIs I would be interested.

As others have noted, the adage "volts jolts, mills kills" does apply, it's the current that is lethal. A 25kV shock from a supply limited to 20mA (the anode cap on your old tube type TV) will make you jump but is unlikely to be lethal, a shock at even 60V from a mains supply with effectively no current limit if you are naked and wet (in the shower) will prove very lethal indeed.

As noted before, this machine with a metal case, would be a Class-1 appliance and as a minimum should have been grounded, since it is installed in a public area an RCD would be extra security. Evidently it had neither.

[luckytrev]

NOTICE

To prevent skimming please cover the keypad with your hand

NOTICE

To prevent electrocution please do not cover keypad with your hand

[lucifer666]

Bull****. In my experience of Thailand, the ATM was probably plugged onto an un-earthed 4 way and had water dripping from it.

[gemini81]

Bull****. In my experience of Thailand, the ATM was probably plugged onto an un-earthed 4 way and had water dripping from it.

Dear God, the ignorance. SCB and the installation team owe this kid's family dearly.

[Strangebrew]

I have to refer to earlier post that people from US don't know squat about grounding overseas. and your correct we don't but then again we don't have people die from useing an ATM either. Simple bank at fault cause they were told by other customers about getting shock from ATM. That should have been enough to shut it down to get it checked. But that 200 baht a pop was worth more. Rest in Peace little I hope your family sues the hell out of bank.

[rakman]

Of course we will never see the actual report.

So the test results on the earthing integrity of the machine and its installation, the operation (or presence) of the RCD or any other safety related checks will never be known.

We just get to see 'power overload' which is plain rubbish, or really, really poor translation.

That's what you call "Face Safety"

Or a "Face Palm"

[smedly]

It is my understanding that the American system is two wire with 55v on each wire to give 110v where everywhere else is two wire with one at 220v and the other at zero volts. That is why the American system is safer as likely you will get a 55v and x amps passing through you not 220v and x amps. It is why 220 volt countries have strict installation rules and America does not, it is not illegal to do your own electrical work n America where it is in Australia. Electricians must be licensed.

Nearly.

The 55-0-55 system is used on building sites around the world (the yellow transformers) for the exact safety reasons you cite.

The US uses 110-0-110 so that high power devices (water heaters, stoves, dryers etc.) can be connected as 220V and so don't draw massive currents and thus require large cables.

At only 110V relative to ground the US system is theoretically safer in regards of electric shock, but the doubling of current for 110V loads increases the chances of a poor joint overheating and causing a fire. The US uses AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interruptors) to detect these fizzing joints and open the circuit. If anyone knows a source of 220V 2-wire AFCIs I would be interested.

As others have noted, the adage "volts jolts, mills kills" does apply, it's the current that is lethal. A 25kV shock from a supply limited to 20mA (the anode cap on your old tube type TV) will make you jump but is unlikely to be lethal, a shock at even 60V from a mains supply with effectively no current limit if you are naked and wet (in the shower) will prove very lethal indeed.

As noted before, this machine with a metal case, would be a Class-1 appliance and as a minimum should have been grounded, since it is installed in a public area an RCD would be extra security. Evidently it had neither.

Now there's a chap that knows exactly what he's talking about - the most technically accurate post on this thread

[Loles]

Yes of course, AS USUALLY, first has to die an innocent 2 yrs old toddler then the Thai authorities awake and start a campaign. T I T

[smedly]

Just to add, yes a lawsuit will help but is not really the answer and the bank will pay and not those actually responsible for this tragedy - criminal negligence and a hefty jail sentence for those responsible for the actual machine might make a difference going forward

As mentioned many times on this thread already - Thailands safety standards and enforcement are/is none existent - qualified people doing responsible jobs - none existent - incentive - none existent

[belg]

bank will say: act of god ?

and pay nothing or peanuts

life is very cheap here