Gaza conflict: Truce ends amid fresh fighting

[Seastallion]

I think what many detest about Israel, aside from the historical inequity in the Jewish land grabs, is that Israel IS the aggressor. Responding to a bunch of rockets that fall in barren fields with the disingenuous cry of "We have a right to defend ourselves" and employing a barrage of modern weapons to kill hundreds is aggression.

If a little waif off the street picks up a pebble and throws it harmlessly at my feet, and I respond by yelling "I have a right to defend myself" and attack the waif with a knife and a club, giving him a sound beating...who is the aggressor? Add to that scenario that the waif happens to have something I want, and if he runs away I'll obtain, and my motives become clear.

Ok, "what many detest about Israel," and you then make a valid point about the land, but you digress into the very thing under consideration as a declared fact, "Israel IS (I guess no ISIS pun intended) the aggressor."

It's convenient for an observer to arbitrarily decide "a bunch of rockets" doesn't deserve response; today, yesterday, last month, last year, every year, on the ground, in the air, overseas, on the coast. Because that the attackers aren't brilliant does not an excuse make. It's been a varying standard in war that you don't go into a gunfight with a knife. So, assuming this is known- and the whole world knows Israel will respond- why then does Hamas continuing using a knife? Doesn't reason and personal mental justice compel one to ask the question? "If Israel keeps rooting us out, forcing us to flee for our lives and hide amongst our citizens, in hospitals, in camps, why do we attack with a knife (a bunch of rockets)?" The answer is unambiguous. Hamas sacrifices Palestinians because their strategic warfare rests on the attrition of public perception. Every Sovereign since time immemorial had steadfastly guarded it's terrain. Your point is not invalid, it just doesn't seem complete, or it's lacking context. To me.

It's convenient to mask our deep seated position in what we believe by the conviction it's universally obvious to everyone. Your point is not that obvious to me. false analogy (a bit overdone)=Hamas is not a little waif off the streets. Rockets are not little pebbles. I can't comment on secondary scenarios to the waif; that one wiped me out. I hope your smiling because my intention is not unkind. I just think differently. Your position, if exercised, still produces war, conflict, or non resolution.

If Israel only return fired rockets in empty fields in response invariably Hamas would what... Get more precise. Then, extrapolating a scenario from your point, Israel would respond in kind? If Hamas rocket hit a bus and Israeli planners were considering target packets they should the correspondingly look for a target that wipes out.... Hrmmm there were 18 bus victims so... 18 Hamas fighters. You ask of Israel a standard not asked of anyone, anywhere, ever, as a tool of state.

Sorry my friend, you are using sophistry. Unintentionally, I'm sure. You concede the land issue is valid, you then go on to talk about the reality of going to a gunfight armed with a knife. So true and apt, but it avoids the issue of justice, and another reality; that of fighting to your last breath, tooth and nail, for your home. And if you hit below the belt, really, who uses Queensberry rules when the literal life of your entire community is at stake (not to mention your opponent doesn't fight by the rules either)?

You say it's a false analogy, that pebbles are not rockets. Helicopter gunships, white phosphorous, and tanks are not a knife and a club, either. Actually, to make the analogy more accurate, I should tie one of the waif's hands behind his back, and starve him of sustenance so he has low energy. I do not think I overdid it at all. You did not mention my cry, as I brutally bully the waif, of "I have a right to defend myself!". It was important to the analogy. Also important to the analogy was the fact that I want something that the waif has, and with him gone or incapacitated, I am free to take it.

I don't dispose of your point regarding proportionate responses. I think, though, you were a little disingenuous to suggest that I think Israel should kill 18, for the 18 Hammas killed. But there's proportionate and then there's vastly disproportionate, ie pebble harmlessly falling in my direction vs a severe beating with a knife and club. Surely if I had slapped the waif, or even boxed his ears I would not earn (as much) censure?

As you say, "It's convenient to mask our deep seated position in what we believe by the conviction it's universally obvious to everyone.".

I avoid the secondary points of your post and go to the heart.

And so you capture and define my weakest point; I am aware of it. If any reads my posts they could infer it. But you are correct. In a world of absolutes (suspend the relative for a moment), Israel took land from others. I often sidestep this issue by declaring there was no Palestinian State, ever. I declare that the Arab world never even recognized a Palestinian State previously. Yes. I do not do this to be evasive or sell a product. I believe this. But my mind operates from a singular perspective:

If we aren't going to kill all the Jews, and we aren't going to kill all the Arabs, how do we proceed. History should inform the future and the absolute fact of the land grab doesn't inform any current, relative choices.

I do find myself mixing relative arguments with absolute reality (land grab). I try to avoid it but then it becomes insufferable to defend my position when people introduce the issue of first cause- the land grab. It is at this point where my line item arguments come to an end, or don't connect. I am an honest man and I have an abiding respect for keeping my mind subordinate to reason. I try to have no opinion I cant defend with reason or self evidence. Every post I make I consider deeply and mean. Sometimes I am mistaken or post wrong and when shown, I hope my humility equals the observation.

I just deeply believe that the issue with the Palestinians is much more fundamental than land (Indeed for the remainder of Islam the land is a vehicle only; they hate Jews). I am an avid student of Islam having once written a book on the mystical similarities of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. The problem was after I began collecting my facts on Islam, reading the many suras, the hadith, islamic exegesis, etc., I became appalled and realized that I would be fitting a round hole in a square socket. I could not edit it nor publish it. Indeed, even Sufi suffered greatly. In my instance, I could not complete the comparison for the book but the knowledge, and the many years in these areas, informed me that there is a very deep, underlying maleficence motivating Arabs towards Israel and in another book I called that chapter The Thorn in Ishmael's Side. This is the issue. (Note: The Book in reference will never be mentioned).

I regret that you avoid what you call my secondary points. They are points that pertain to the OP and, more importantly, were made in response/reply to you. Forgive me for drawing my own conclusions over why you avoid those points.

Never mind, lets get to what you call the heart of the matter. In particular, your side-step of it. "..there was no Palestinian State, ever..." (Coincidentally, there is another TVF member (much less polite and far less intelligent) who uses that same reason in a spurious attempt to justify every atrocity Israel commits). What does it really matter that the British, or before them the Ottomans, or before them whoever, never drew lines on a map and declared "This is the state of Palestine"? People lived there 200, 500, 1000 years ago, and their descendants live there today, squashed into the Gaza strip and the West Bank. The Palestinians are the aboriginals. How can we, civilised society, allow a bunch of European refugees and their descendants the "right" to displace the aborigines? How can we, civilised society, blame the Palestinians for fighting for their homes?

I hark back to my previous post and the "secondary" points you wish to avoid; "We have a right to defend ourselves". Surely, the aboriginal throwing stones at the (well armed and politically supported) invader is the defender, not the aggressor?

I sincerely hope I never have to remind you of your own words; " . I am an honest man and I have an abiding respect for keeping my mind subordinate to reason. I try to have no opinion I cant defend with reason or self evidence. "

[arjunadawn]

Well, unfortunately there will be never ever peace between the Jews and their neighbours. Just look at the attitude and hatred in the comments of our zionist friends and these might be guys who even don't live in Israel. As long as these thickheads fully accept such crimes against the humanity as deliberately killing innocent children and bombing schools as being fine because Israel needs to protect themselves. How could peace ever happen? Is really sad but this is the reality. Right now Israel has the military power and use it to kill 'Arabs', who knows one day the other side will have more power and they will kill of the Jews. As a matter of fact both are fools.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Israeli supporters are Zionist friends. Some of us have a position that lends toward one side, or the other, but do try to remain dispassionate. I have seen few posts here that solicit or sell hate. To suggest a collective responsibility for the deliberate killing of of innocent children, upon the TV populace, is just rude.

You narrowly note that currently Israel has some means of power and... are you aware of the wars launched against the Jews by their arab neighbors when it was percieved that the arbas had some means and power? Are you aware this street goes in both directions. Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. This... this type of act, whether defended as defense of proactive, entrenches another generation of local arabs and confirms Jew hatred, Hamas creates the pretext for Israel to act, and this action furthers Hamas' claim that Israel is.... But Hate? Here? I think this is a bit overdone. It would be kind to simply retract that one point. Just a conceding it was a bit too much would be kind and demonstrate meeting others half way. And yes, they are both fools and for all our evolution humans cant find a way out of this morass.

[arjunadawn]

When I was in high school, I volunteered for a student exchange program. I went from my suburban white h.s. to a black inner city h.s. for a week. Once at a private party, it was very dark, just enough light to see where the ladies were. Me and my (black) men friends showed up, and we each picked a gal and danced. They had LP's with completely slow songs. I danced with my entrancing gal for a long time, very sensuous. When the lights came on, she suddenly realized I was a white guy. She looked at her friends in embarrassment, and retreated away from me.

The reason I'm telling that story is: People are very subjective and governed by appearances (and pre-conceived notions). Imagine if 30 Palestinians and 30 Israelis got in a room together to study massage (or do an art/architectural project together), but all were wearing head covers and had their voices disguised (to not reveal accents, etc.). The Palestinians, in particular, would not be able to interact (or have bodily contact) because they would be stymied by not knowing who is Israeli and who is not. Preconceived notions are a powerful controller of minds and actions.

Thank you. This is very smart. I recall once in Abu Dhabi a western contractor was teaching a class on first aid and he pulled out a bandage. The name of this bandage is informally called "Israeli Bandage (or dressing)." The students lost their minds. The instructor was pulled from the podium, taken to some office, calls made, driven to the airport, and shipped out to his home of record ASAP. His belongings were then packed up at his apartment, and container company ordered to ship his stuff out within a week. This is a rough example of perception. The students did not even know what they protested, only that the word "Israeli" was used in association with something they were asked to pick up.

[Seastallion]

Well, unfortunately there will be never ever peace between the Jews and their neighbours. Just look at the attitude and hatred in the comments of our zionist friends and these might be guys who even don't live in Israel. As long as these thickheads fully accept such crimes against the humanity as deliberately killing innocent children and bombing schools as being fine because Israel needs to protect themselves. How could peace ever happen? Is really sad but this is the reality. Right now Israel has the military power and use it to kill 'Arabs', who knows one day the other side will have more power and they will kill of the Jews. As a matter of fact both are fools.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Israeli supporters are Zionist friends. Some of us have a position that lends toward one side, or the other, but do try to remain dispassionate. I have seen few posts here that solicit or sell hate. To suggest a collective responsibility for the deliberate killing of of innocent children, upon the TV populace, is just rude.

You narrowly note that currently Israel has some means of power and... are you aware of the wars launched against the Jews by their arab neighbors when it was percieved that the arbas had some means and power? Are you aware this street goes in both directions. Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. This... this type of act, whether defended as defense of proactive, entrenches another generation of local arabs and confirms Jew hatred, Hamas creates the pretext for Israel to act, and this action furthers Hamas' claim that Israel is.... But Hate? Here? I think this is a bit overdone. It would be kind to simply retract that one point. Just a conceding it was a bit too much would be kind and demonstrate meeting others half way. And yes, they are both fools and for all our evolution humans cant find a way out of this morass.

I think you're drawing a very long bow when you say, " Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. ". They have military intelligence and they have precision weapons. Precision. Every bomb and every bullet is intended. The only thing that is random is how the white phosphorous falls.

[arjunadawn]

I sincerely hope I never have to remind you of your own words; " . I am an honest man and I have an abiding respect for keeping my mind subordinate to reason. I try to have no opinion I cant defend with reason or self evidence. "

Thank you. Me too. I am just trying to live a better second half of my life.

[Seastallion]

When I was in high school, I volunteered for a student exchange program. I went from my suburban white h.s. to a black inner city h.s. for a week. Once at a private party, it was very dark, just enough light to see where the ladies were. Me and my (black) men friends showed up, and we each picked a gal and danced. They had LP's with completely slow songs. I danced with my entrancing gal for a long time, very sensuous. When the lights came on, she suddenly realized I was a white guy. She looked at her friends in embarrassment, and retreated away from me.

The reason I'm telling that story is: People are very subjective and governed by appearances (and pre-conceived notions). Imagine if 30 Palestinians and 30 Israelis got in a room together to study massage (or do an art/architectural project together), but all were wearing head covers and had their voices disguised (to not reveal accents, etc.). The Palestinians, in particular, would not be able to interact (or have bodily contact) because they would be stymied by not knowing who is Israeli and who is not. Preconceived notions are a powerful controller of minds and actions.

.

To your anecdote, you assumed it was because you were white....maybe she just thought you were unattractive. But to be fair...maybe you are right in that case.

To your analogy...nonsense based on a sweeping generalisation.

Again, to be fair, there may be some Palestinians who can not bring themselves to touch a Jew, but I will bet that there are as many, if not more, Orthodox Jews who reciprocate the revulsion.

[Wat dee]

With what's going on with ISIS, Israel needs to resolve this quickly, one way or another, before being attacked on more than one side.

Might find themselves with some "unusual" allies soon.

ISIS is not a direct threat to Israel at this point. Some hostile Arab forces between them and Israel which would need to be dealt with first.

Israel's "second front" threat was more to to with Hezbollah, but as these are tied up with the fighting in Syria, it seems a bit unlikely they would divert their attention to another front anytime soon.

The ISIS threat could become a reality if and when they take charge of either Syria or Jordan. On another level, increased presence on the Gaza Strip, West Bank and Sinai Peninsula could raise the stakes, but not quite there yet.

I am aware of your in-depth knowledge of this region, and agree totally with your above post. However, I would just like to add one thought for context: Why is IS not a threat to Israel at this stage? Its rhetorical; I know you know. People are often unaware that the primary target of radical Islam is not first Israel, or Jews, it is other Muslims (shia, blasphemers, arab strongmen, those who enter into treaties with infidels, etc).

In this equation the cui bono inferred. It is always better to have a war with single players rather than wide-scale asymmetrical threats. Whether its tracking deploying armies or managing collateral damage, its advisable to have a single entity to manage.

Fracturing the artificial state lines that now exist in the mid east and restoring them to ethnic/tribal/sect faults allows the true threat players to distill and consolidate and facilitates a manageable threat to emerge. It sounds, at first, counter intuitive, but considering the psychology of warfare and the players involved, it is a brilliant stroke of genius. This is why, irrespective of al baghdahi's final intention, he clearly aids and abets his enemies now. I personally think he is not as manageable as the west might imagine. You cannot ever reason with a man who is confident his god commands his actions.

Someone earlier mentioned Israel might be squarely behind motivating IS. At the time I considered, perhaps peripherally. Now I am less certain. There really is a stroke of both madness and genius in the utility of IS. The fact that it is not garnering the widespread condemnation that even Saddam's fictitious WPD did, this is suggestive. If what I am saying is even partially true, even 10%, or true by omission of actions of the west, or sitting on intelligence, or entirely provoking the IS threat, then the West is guilt of genocide! I do assert this is true (IMO).

Well....seems like we're doomed to repeat that old argument regarding Evil Designs vs. Short-sightedness and Stupidity. I usually do not put much trust in the former.

Without taking this into OT areas - my point was that regardless of IS aims, it would be a while before it could effectively pose a direct threat to Israel. If this proves to be untrue, and the powers that lie between IS and Isreal capitulate quickly, then IS would already be a certified global threat rather than a regional one, and therefore - a whole different ball game.

With their massive Navy and hundreds of bombers and fighter jets, it is just matter of time before IS takes over the world. Just in case, lets wipe out Irak , Syria and of course Iran.

[Wat dee]

When I was in high school, I volunteered for a student exchange program. I went from my suburban white h.s. to a black inner city h.s. for a week. Once at a private party, it was very dark, just enough light to see where the ladies were. Me and my (black) men friends showed up, and we each picked a gal and danced. They had LP's with completely slow songs. I danced with my entrancing gal for a long time, very sensuous. When the lights came on, she suddenly realized I was a white guy. She looked at her friends in embarrassment, and retreated away from me.

The reason I'm telling that story is: People are very subjective and governed by appearances (and pre-conceived notions). Imagine if 30 Palestinians and 30 Israelis got in a room together to study massage (or do an art/architectural project together), but all were wearing head covers and had their voices disguised (to not reveal accents, etc.). The Palestinians, in particular, would not be able to interact (or have bodily contact) because they would be stymied by not knowing who is Israeli and who is not. Preconceived notions are a powerful controller of minds and actions.

"just enough light..." Really!

[arjunadawn]

Well, unfortunately there will be never ever peace between the Jews and their neighbours. Just look at the attitude and hatred in the comments of our zionist friends and these might be guys who even don't live in Israel. As long as these thickheads fully accept such crimes against the humanity as deliberately killing innocent children and bombing schools as being fine because Israel needs to protect themselves. How could peace ever happen? Is really sad but this is the reality. Right now Israel has the military power and use it to kill 'Arabs', who knows one day the other side will have more power and they will kill of the Jews. As a matter of fact both are fools.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Israeli supporters are Zionist friends. Some of us have a position that lends toward one side, or the other, but do try to remain dispassionate. I have seen few posts here that solicit or sell hate. To suggest a collective responsibility for the deliberate killing of of innocent children, upon the TV populace, is just rude.

You narrowly note that currently Israel has some means of power and... are you aware of the wars launched against the Jews by their arab neighbors when it was percieved that the arbas had some means and power? Are you aware this street goes in both directions. Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. This... this type of act, whether defended as defense of proactive, entrenches another generation of local arabs and confirms Jew hatred, Hamas creates the pretext for Israel to act, and this action furthers Hamas' claim that Israel is.... But Hate? Here? I think this is a bit overdone. It would be kind to simply retract that one point. Just a conceding it was a bit too much would be kind and demonstrate meeting others half way. And yes, they are both fools and for all our evolution humans cant find a way out of this morass.

I think you're drawing a very long bow when you say, " Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. ". They have military intelligence and they have precision weapons. Precision. Every bomb and every bullet is intended. The only thing that is random is how the white phosphorous falls.

Perhaps I lost my way. Whether contrived or real collateral damage, Israel pays a public relations price for their actions. Indeed, much of our TV talk reflects this. I don't believe there has ever been, in the history of warfare, as much effort made to spare civilians as Israel does. Painfully aware they battle a war of perceptions, most observers conveniently fail to note that Israel's predicament in this regard underlies Hamas' central strategy. Therefore, if Israel never hit a civilian area by mistake, never hit a school, or hospital, it is highly likely that the west would still be reporting Israel bombed children, a hospital, a school. Hamas uses these venues as a conduct of warfare. Regrettably, in this new paradigm (24/7 news cycle, social networking), Israel suffers PR debacles so must cleverly manage Hamas' engagement methods.

[Seastallion]

Well, unfortunately there will be never ever peace between the Jews and their neighbours. Just look at the attitude and hatred in the comments of our zionist friends and these might be guys who even don't live in Israel. As long as these thickheads fully accept such crimes against the humanity as deliberately killing innocent children and bombing schools as being fine because Israel needs to protect themselves. How could peace ever happen? Is really sad but this is the reality. Right now Israel has the military power and use it to kill 'Arabs', who knows one day the other side will have more power and they will kill of the Jews. As a matter of fact both are fools.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Israeli supporters are Zionist friends. Some of us have a position that lends toward one side, or the other, but do try to remain dispassionate. I have seen few posts here that solicit or sell hate. To suggest a collective responsibility for the deliberate killing of of innocent children, upon the TV populace, is just rude.

You narrowly note that currently Israel has some means of power and... are you aware of the wars launched against the Jews by their arab neighbors when it was percieved that the arbas had some means and power? Are you aware this street goes in both directions. Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. This... this type of act, whether defended as defense of proactive, entrenches another generation of local arabs and confirms Jew hatred, Hamas creates the pretext for Israel to act, and this action furthers Hamas' claim that Israel is.... But Hate? Here? I think this is a bit overdone. It would be kind to simply retract that one point. Just a conceding it was a bit too much would be kind and demonstrate meeting others half way. And yes, they are both fools and for all our evolution humans cant find a way out of this morass.

I think you're drawing a very long bow when you say, " Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. ". They have military intelligence and they have precision weapons. Precision. Every bomb and every bullet is intended. The only thing that is random is how the white phosphorous falls.

Perhaps I lost my way. Whether contrived or real collateral damage, Israel pays a public relations price for their actions. Indeed, much of our TV talk reflects this. I don't believe there has ever been, in the history of warfare, as much effort made to spare civilians as Israel does. Painfully aware they battle a war of perceptions, most observers conveniently fail to note that Israel's predicament in this regard underlies Hamas' central strategy. Therefore, if Israel never hit a civilian area by mistake, never hit a school, or hospital, it is highly likely that the west would still be reporting Israel bombed children, a hospital, a school. Hamas uses these venues as a conduct of warfare. Regrettably, in this new paradigm (24/7 news cycle, social networking), Israel suffers PR debacles so must cleverly manage Hamas' engagement methods.

Ok, if I give you that (which I don't but I'm too tired to argue right now)...so Israel...Enter peace talks with sincerity and a genuine desire to get a fair deal for both sides.!!!!!!!!

[Seastallion]

Sorry my friend, you are using sophistry. Unintentionally, I'm sure. You concede the land issue is valid, you then go on to talk about the reality of going to a gunfight armed with a knife. So true and apt, but it avoids the issue of justice, and another reality; that of fighting to your last breath, tooth and nail, for your home. And if you hit below the belt, really, who uses Queensberry rules when the literal life of your entire community is at stake (not to mention your opponent doesn't fight by the rules either)?

You say it's a false analogy, that pebbles are not rockets. Helicopter gunships, white phosphorous, and tanks are not a knife and a club, either. Actually, to make the analogy more accurate, I should tie one of the waif's hands behind his back, and starve him of sustenance so he has low energy. I do not think I overdid it at all. You did not mention my cry, as I brutally bully the waif, of "I have a right to defend myself!". It was important to the analogy. Also important to the analogy was the fact that I want something that the waif has, and with him gone or incapacitated, I am free to take it.

I don't dispose of your point regarding proportionate responses. I think, though, you were a little disingenuous to suggest that I think Israel should kill 18, for the 18 Hammas killed. But there's proportionate and then there's vastly disproportionate, ie pebble harmlessly falling in my direction vs a severe beating with a knife and club. Surely if I had slapped the waif, or even boxed his ears I would not earn (as much) censure?

As you say, "It's convenient to mask our deep seated position in what we believe by the conviction it's universally obvious to everyone.".

I avoid the secondary points of your post and go to the heart.

And so you capture and define my weakest point; I am aware of it. If any reads my posts they could infer it. But you are correct. In a world of absolutes (suspend the relative for a moment), Israel took land from others. I often sidestep this issue by declaring there was no Palestinian State, ever. I declare that the Arab world never even recognized a Palestinian State previously. Yes. I do not do this to be evasive or sell a product. I believe this. But my mind operates from a singular perspective:

If we aren't going to kill all the Jews, and we aren't going to kill all the Arabs, how do we proceed. History should inform the future and the absolute fact of the land grab doesn't inform any current, relative choices.

I do find myself mixing relative arguments with absolute reality (land grab). I try to avoid it but then it becomes insufferable to defend my position when people introduce the issue of first cause- the land grab. It is at this point where my line item arguments come to an end, or don't connect. I am an honest man and I have an abiding respect for keeping my mind subordinate to reason. I try to have no opinion I cant defend with reason or self evidence. Every post I make I consider deeply and mean. Sometimes I am mistaken or post wrong and when shown, I hope my humility equals the observation.

I just deeply believe that the issue with the Palestinians is much more fundamental than land (Indeed for the remainder of Islam the land is a vehicle only; they hate Jews). I am an avid student of Islam having once written a book on the mystical similarities of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. The problem was after I began collecting my facts on Islam, reading the many suras, the hadith, islamic exegesis, etc., I became appalled and realized that I would be fitting a round hole in a square socket. I could not edit it nor publish it. Indeed, even Sufi suffered greatly. In my instance, I could not complete the comparison for the book but the knowledge, and the many years in these areas, informed me that there is a very deep, underlying maleficence motivating Arabs towards Israel and in another book I called that chapter The Thorn in Ishmael's Side. This is the issue. (Note: The Book in reference will never be mentioned).

Thanks for your humility. Much appreciated, at least some of the Israel defenders are considering their position from time to time.

I cannot however agree with this blant statement: Moslems hate Jews. After all what the Jews did to them in the Middle East there are obviously a bit angry about them. (I have to control my anger about this arrogant, blood thirsty Israelis too and I am even not a Muslim). But just saying they hate Jews? No, you really can't. The problem with the Arabs and the Jews (as a matter of fact Jews are Arabs too), is that they are very tribe-oriented and very suspicioius towards anything else than their own tribe.

There is a solution: compassion towards each other. Israel needs to stop thinking that they can control 'the Arabs' in just eradicating and suppressing them, this creates only hate in them and plays into the hands of extremists on the other side, like Hamas. Palestinians need, though I understand it is very hard as the Jews kill deliberately their children, to be compassionate and understanding towards the Jews. This is what I meant with love can change things. Hate will never bring a real change.

What, exactly, did the Jews do to the Muslims in the Middle East? Did you mean that as in all the Muslims in the Middle East?

Jews are Arabs? Really?

Compassion? Did you see much of it in evidence from anyone on the neighborhood?

Israeli Jews are Europeans....which brings us to "what did they do to the Muslims?"..... putting generalisations aside, the Israelis (Jews) invaded and occupied the lands of the Palestinians (Muslims)

[Jingthing]

Israeli Jews are Europeans....

False.

http://jewishbubba.blogspot.com/2013/06/additional-demographics-of-jews-in.html

[Ulysses G.]

Israeli Jews are Europeans.

Most Israeli Jews were born in Israel, which is not in Europe. There are geography classes available on-line, for people who have not picked that up by now.

[Morch]

I avoid the secondary points of your post and go to the heart.

And so you capture and define my weakest point; I am aware of it. If any reads my posts they could infer it. But you are correct. In a world of absolutes (suspend the relative for a moment), Israel took land from others. I often sidestep this issue by declaring there was no Palestinian State, ever. I declare that the Arab world never even recognized a Palestinian State previously. Yes. I do not do this to be evasive or sell a product. I believe this. But my mind operates from a singular perspective:

If we aren't going to kill all the Jews, and we aren't going to kill all the Arabs, how do we proceed. History should inform the future and the absolute fact of the land grab doesn't inform any current, relative choices.

I do find myself mixing relative arguments with absolute reality (land grab). I try to avoid it but then it becomes insufferable to defend my position when people introduce the issue of first cause- the land grab. It is at this point where my line item arguments come to an end, or don't connect. I am an honest man and I have an abiding respect for keeping my mind subordinate to reason. I try to have no opinion I cant defend with reason or self evidence. Every post I make I consider deeply and mean. Sometimes I am mistaken or post wrong and when shown, I hope my humility equals the observation.

I just deeply believe that the issue with the Palestinians is much more fundamental than land (Indeed for the remainder of Islam the land is a vehicle only; they hate Jews). I am an avid student of Islam having once written a book on the mystical similarities of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. The problem was after I began collecting my facts on Islam, reading the many suras, the hadith, islamic exegesis, etc., I became appalled and realized that I would be fitting a round hole in a square socket. I could not edit it nor publish it. Indeed, even Sufi suffered greatly. In my instance, I could not complete the comparison for the book but the knowledge, and the many years in these areas, informed me that there is a very deep, underlying maleficence motivating Arabs towards Israel and in another book I called that chapter The Thorn in Ishmael's Side. This is the issue. (Note: The Book in reference will never be mentioned).

Thanks for your humility. Much appreciated, at least some of the Israel defenders are considering their position from time to time.

I cannot however agree with this blant statement: Moslems hate Jews. After all what the Jews did to them in the Middle East there are obviously a bit angry about them. (I have to control my anger about this arrogant, blood thirsty Israelis too and I am even not a Muslim). But just saying they hate Jews? No, you really can't. The problem with the Arabs and the Jews (as a matter of fact Jews are Arabs too), is that they are very tribe-oriented and very suspicioius towards anything else than their own tribe.

There is a solution: compassion towards each other. Israel needs to stop thinking that they can control 'the Arabs' in just eradicating and suppressing them, this creates only hate in them and plays into the hands of extremists on the other side, like Hamas. Palestinians need, though I understand it is very hard as the Jews kill deliberately their children, to be compassionate and understanding towards the Jews. This is what I meant with love can change things. Hate will never bring a real change.

What, exactly, did the Jews do to the Muslims in the Middle East? Did you mean that as in all the Muslims in the Middle East?

Jews are Arabs? Really?

Compassion? Did you see much of it in evidence from anyone on the neighborhood?

Israeli Jews are Europeans....which brings us to "what did they do to the Muslims?"..... putting generalisations aside, the Israelis (Jews) invaded and occupied the lands of the Palestinians (Muslims)

Israeli Jews are divided equally (or just about), between those tracing their ancestry to Europe (can include USA and Russia

as well) and those tracing their ancestry to Middle East and North African countries. Most present day Israeli Jews were born

in Israel. There was also an unbroken presence of Jews in Israel/Palestine/whatever itself, albeit numbers were relatively low.

When did this invasion happen, exactly? And what did this so-called "invasion" have to do with all of the Muslims in the ME?

So the Israelis (which weren't Israelis at the time as there was no Israel) invaded the lands of the Palestinians (which did not

in fact, really call themselves Palestinian at the time)?

[Eliot Rosewater]

Assuming, of course, that it is indeed feasible for Israel to re-conquer the Gaza Strip and destroy the Hamas. Not an assured thing on both counts and unlikely Israelis will give continued support for such a long term endeavor. Even if this was to work out as planned, quite probable that a new outfit will take Hamas's place as soon as the space clears.

There are no magic solutions here - Israel can either accept the reality of ongoing hostilities on the current level, or attempt to re-conquer the Gaza Strip and stay in charge, or, alternatively - find a diplomatic solution (preferably one which makes the Hamas redundant while addressing most of the Palestinian grievances).

I agree with you, Morch.

An Israeli re-occupation would be very costly in lives (both sides) and another loss in the global PR stakes.

I know Israel has security issues, but the most sensible way of resolving that is not to back Hamas into a corner saying they must disarm or else...they won’t. They should try some diplomacy. Tit for tat goodwill..as long as the rockets don’t come as the weeks and months go by, a gradual easing of the blockade with the ultimate goal of ending it, plus a port and an airport if all is well after a year. Throw in some provisos such as PA/UN/NATO/IDF inspecting trucks at the Egyptian crossing, and a hotline to leaders, to sort out any rogue firing, while at the same time no provocative assassinations by Israelis.

It could be a win win..prolonged period of quiet for Israelis, and a better life for Gazans.

And during that quiet time, start negotiating a serious final peace agreement. If Hamas won’t recognize Israel, who cares? Many Zionist fanatics will never recognize a Palestinian state either. Both sides’ extremists would be sidelined in a majority referendum.

Shalom

The thing is you (and others) try to make it seem as if this is all up to Israel, which is not the case. Hamas is not all that open to the idea of inspections, and not getting the port/airport right away (mind, the Egyptians are

far from keen on both, for their own security issues). Both sides try to drive a hard bargain and "win" something they can present to their people. Goodwill does not come into this, goodwill does not even live in this neighborhood.

I have less confidence that if things come to a referendum there will indeed be a clear majority for peace on both sides. A related issue being leadership on both sides being either unwilling or unable to deliver when it comes to peace.

It does not matter that Hamas was democratically elected (insofar that this is even possible in an Arab locale). No one, not Israel, not the West, no one... should negotiate with Hamas. Hamas met, meets, sustains, propogates all that defines terrorism. Moreover, Hamas significantly represents other regional players who wholeheartedly do not want peace. Are those of you advocating peace with Hamas aware who/what Hamas is? Really. I mean no disrespect. This is not a valid partner to find a solution. Hamas raison d'etre is destruction of Israel. Its goals for the local arabs are secondary.

There can never be a sustained solution to the current problem through Hamas. They simply will not go down this road. However, in Islam, there is a core pillar that allows lying to enter treaties, etc, with your enemy to further your goals in Islam. Of course, all wrap up there various and personal actions by rationalizing they further Islam. If the local arabs are serious they must first clean their local house and put forth a legitimate representative council that reflects fully the will of the local arabs, not foreign players not radical islam.

Oh, I do not think that there can be peace (as we understand it) between Israel and the Hamas. The most that can be hoped for are temporary agreements and understandings which sort of regulate the bouts of violence.

When referring to negotiations with Hamas, this is as far as it can get.

Could be different with the Fatah, although its an open question as to how much support it represents.

There can only be peace when the arabs love their children more than they hate Israel

I think Golda Meir said that

[dr_lucas]

Israeli Jews are Europeans....

[boomerangutang]

Israeli Jews are Europeans....which brings us to "what did they do to the Muslims?"..... putting generalisations aside, the Israelis (Jews) invaded and occupied the lands of the Palestinians (Muslims)

If you want to believe in falsehoods, that's your choice. There are 1.5 billion Han Chinese that believe Tibet was always owned by China - does that make it correct?

How far back do you want to go with the 'Palestinian owns that territory' analogy? The first humanoids there didn't even survive, and pre-date the next wave of homo sapiens, who came along 70,000 years later. There have been a whole lot of different tribes who have gone through and settled those dunes, for between 2 weeks and 90 years each. The Egyptians owned it on and off for awhile, as did Alexander's Macedonians. Israeli ancestors are the same as Palestinian ancestors are the same as Arabs. To try to instate differences is like saying there's a big difference between red roses from the same bush. Rather than aping what Islamists hate-mongers want everyone to believe, there is zero genetic difference between Palestinians and Israelis. The only difference is what hate-mongering Islamists want you to believe.

[dr_lucas]

Israeli Jews are Europeans....which brings us to "what did they do to the Muslims?"..... putting generalisations aside, the Israelis (Jews) invaded and occupied the lands of the Palestinians (Muslims)

If you want to believe in falsehoods, that's your choice. There are 1.5 billion Han Chinese that believe Tibet was always owned by China - does that make it correct?

How far back do you want to go with the 'Palestinian owns that territory' analogy? The first humanoids there didn't even survive, and pre-date the next wave of homo sapiens, who came along 70,000 years later. There have been a whole lot of different tribes who have gone through and settled those dunes, for between 2 weeks and 90 years each. The Egyptians owned it on and off for awhile, as did Alexander's Macedonians. Israeli ancestors are the same as Palestinian ancestors are the same as Arabs. To try to instate differences is like saying there's a big difference between red roses from the same bush. Rather than aping what Islamists hate-mongers want everyone to believe, there is zero genetic difference between Palestinians and Israelis. The only difference is what hate-mongering Islamists want you to believe.

Following the same logic, there is zero genetic difference between all humans on planet earth.

[Johpa]

I think what many detest about Israel, aside from the historical inequity in the Jewish land grabs, is that Israel IS the aggressor. Responding to a bunch of rockets that fall in barren fields with the disingenuous cry of "We have a right to defend ourselves" and employing a barrage of modern weapons to kill hundreds is aggression.

If a little waif off the street picks up a pebble and throws it harmlessly at my feet, and I respond by yelling "I have a right to defend myself" and attack the waif with a knife and a club, giving him a sound beating...who is the aggressor? Add to that scenario that the waif happens to have something I want, and if he runs away I'll obtain, and my motives become clear.

Uh, pardon me, but Hamas militants are not little waifs and those rockets are not little pebbles falling harmlessly near you feet. Rest assured that if someone was sending lethal weaponry at your home with your children inside that home that you too would respond with prejudice. And you would not care one whit whether the attacks were on target or merely close calls causing little damage. And, also, that you would increase that prejudice to an extreme point if the attacks did not stop. Thinking any other way is simply being in denial or just being a hypocrite because, as you readily admit, you detest the mere existence of Israel.

[dr_lucas]

Well, unfortunately there will be never ever peace between the Jews and their neighbours. Just look at the attitude and hatred in the comments of our zionist friends and these might be guys who even don't live in Israel. As long as these thickheads fully accept such crimes against the humanity as deliberately killing innocent children and bombing schools as being fine because Israel needs to protect themselves. How could peace ever happen? Is really sad but this is the reality. Right now Israel has the military power and use it to kill 'Arabs', who knows one day the other side will have more power and they will kill of the Jews. As a matter of fact both are fools.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Israeli supporters are Zionist friends. Some of us have a position that lends toward one side, or the other, but do try to remain dispassionate. I have seen few posts here that solicit or sell hate. To suggest a collective responsibility for the deliberate killing of of innocent children, upon the TV populace, is just rude.

You narrowly note that currently Israel has some means of power and... are you aware of the wars launched against the Jews by their arab neighbors when it was percieved that the arbas had some means and power? Are you aware this street goes in both directions. Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. This... this type of act, whether defended as defense of proactive, entrenches another generation of local arabs and confirms Jew hatred, Hamas creates the pretext for Israel to act, and this action furthers Hamas' claim that Israel is.... But Hate? Here? I think this is a bit overdone. It would be kind to simply retract that one point. Just a conceding it was a bit too much would be kind and demonstrate meeting others half way. And yes, they are both fools and for all our evolution humans cant find a way out of this morass.

I think you're drawing a very long bow when you say, " Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. ". They have military intelligence and they have precision weapons. Precision. Every bomb and every bullet is intended. The only thing that is random is how the white phosphorous falls.

If that is the case and they can just send the IAF & artillerists to bomb as you suggest, then why do they send their infantry in to get killed (60+ soldiers) and injured (hundreds others)?

Edited August 20, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Jingthing]

Well, unfortunately there will be never ever peace between the Jews and their neighbours. Just look at the attitude and hatred in the comments of our zionist friends and these might be guys who even don't live in Israel. As long as these thickheads fully accept such crimes against the humanity as deliberately killing innocent children and bombing schools as being fine because Israel needs to protect themselves. How could peace ever happen? Is really sad but this is the reality. Right now Israel has the military power and use it to kill 'Arabs', who knows one day the other side will have more power and they will kill of the Jews. As a matter of fact both are fools.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Israeli supporters are Zionist friends. Some of us have a position that lends toward one side, or the other, but do try to remain dispassionate. I have seen few posts here that solicit or sell hate. To suggest a collective responsibility for the deliberate killing of of innocent children, upon the TV populace, is just rude.

You narrowly note that currently Israel has some means of power and... are you aware of the wars launched against the Jews by their arab neighbors when it was percieved that the arbas had some means and power? Are you aware this street goes in both directions. Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. This... this type of act, whether defended as defense of proactive, entrenches another generation of local arabs and confirms Jew hatred, Hamas creates the pretext for Israel to act, and this action furthers Hamas' claim that Israel is.... But Hate? Here? I think this is a bit overdone. It would be kind to simply retract that one point. Just a conceding it was a bit too much would be kind and demonstrate meeting others half way. And yes, they are both fools and for all our evolution humans cant find a way out of this morass.

I think you're drawing a very long bow when you say, " Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. ". They have military intelligence and they have precision weapons. Precision. Every bomb and every bullet is intended. The only thing that is random is how the white phosphorous falls.

Israel demonization continues to unreasonably hold Israel to an IMPOSSIBLE standard.

What other country under massive rocket attacks would be held to such a standard?

Answer: NONE. ZILCH. BUPKIS. You know it. I know it. The taxi driver down the street knows it.

SO ...

Why do you think that is?

Hmm ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-israel-is-held-to-an-impossible-standard/2014/08/18/16cecc90-2701-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html

All these impressive technological feats, all this bravery and derring-do, suggest a kind of perfection. They suggest, further, that what seems like war crimes must indeed be war crimes because Israel does not make mistakes. Not only is this hardly true — a list of operations botched by the Mossad could fill the rest of this column — but it also veers into a kind of anti-Semitism. If the bombing of a school or hospital is not a mistake, then it must have been on purpose: Israel is the cold-hearted killer of children.

This is the gravamen of a column in the Independent, a British newspaper. The author is Mark Steel and, in a Swiftian sort of way, he calls Israel “the child murdering community.” Steel has a good time with the occasionally idiotic statements of Israeli officials who blame civilian deaths on the civilians themselves — they should not have been where they were — even though that happens to be the case. Civilians are often warned by phone call or text message of a pending attack but either refuse to flee or are constrained from doing so. Either way, they die — deaths that Israel, with its unparalleled expertise, purportedly could have avoided.

I am not sure if Steel’s column is an example of philo-Semitism — excessive admiration of Jews — or anti-Semitism, whose excesses run the other way. I see it as the latter. It assumes a maniacal willingness to kill children either on purpose or because they are in the way — collateral damage, as it is sometimes called. It gives mocking recognition to all the precautions Israel takes to avoid such casualties.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Jingthing

[wooloomooloo]

If I ever get bored of life then I'll move to the Middle East. There's never a dull moment.

[Jingthing]

Israeli Jews are Europeans....

False.

http://jewishbubba.blogspot.com/2013/06/additional-demographics-of-jews-in.html

Another more current comment on modern European Jewry:

Recent NEWSWEEK magazine cover:

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/08/exodus-why-europes-jews-are-fleeing-once-again-261854.html

As Stephen Pollard, the editor of the Jewish Chronicle, argues: “These people were not attacked because they were showing their support for the Israeli government. They were attacked because they were Jews, going about their daily business.”

Edited August 20, 2014 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

The Israelis might have the upper hand at this time but the world and especially the Palestinians will not forget that they deliberately killed children, bombed UN protected schools and steal the land of the Palestinians since decades.

Things are in continuous evaluation and the day will come that they have to pay for the crimes against humanity committed, these scumbags deserve that punishment fully.

If you believe in punishment in the hereafter I hope it applies to malicious spreaders of blood libel.

[Seastallion]

I think what many detest about Israel, aside from the historical inequity in the Jewish land grabs, is that Israel IS the aggressor. Responding to a bunch of rockets that fall in barren fields with the disingenuous cry of "We have a right to defend ourselves" and employing a barrage of modern weapons to kill hundreds is aggression.

If a little waif off the street picks up a pebble and throws it harmlessly at my feet, and I respond by yelling "I have a right to defend myself" and attack the waif with a knife and a club, giving him a sound beating...who is the aggressor? Add to that scenario that the waif happens to have something I want, and if he runs away I'll obtain, and my motives become clear.

Uh, pardon me, but Hamas militants are not little waifs and those rockets are not little pebbles falling harmlessly near you feet. Rest assured that if someone was sending lethal weaponry at your home with your children inside that home that you too would respond with prejudice. And you would not care one whit whether the attacks were on target or merely close calls causing little damage. And, also, that you would increase that prejudice to an extreme point if the attacks did not stop. Thinking any other way is simply being in denial or just being a hypocrite because, as you readily admit, you detest the mere existence of Israel.

No you're not pardoned for spin and ignorance.

The entire waif/pebble analolgy was just that, an analogy. Do you know how analogies work? Different from similes. Respond with prejudice, yes....but there is a limit to how "prejudiced" the response should be.

I did not admit I detest the existence of Israel...show me where I said that and I will retire from this thread....I would hope if you can't, you will do the same.

[Ulysses G.]

No you're not pardoned for spin and ignorance.

Johpa is one of the more intelligent, knowledgeable and honest members on these threads and he is not particularly on one side or the other. I sometimes disagree with his conclusions, but it is obvious that he is sincere. Making such silly accusations against him just show how out of touch you are with reality.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[tartempion]

Palestinians are raised from day one in hatred agains Israelis.

I have not noticed the opposite in Israel.

Would depend on which places you visit in Israel, whom you talk to and on what level. As you mentioned earlier that you stayed on a kibbutz, it is not very surprising that you would come to this conclusion.

I travelled extensively around Israel, slept in hotels, guest houses, kibbutz and stayed at people's houses making the error of switching on the lights on Sabbat. I was told not to worry but saw the fanatics attacking people carrying a camera. I made friends with a university professor of Hebrew who spoke perfect French and English and a journalist for the Jerusalem Post. We still keep in touch sporadically.

I travelled into the Golan and saw the flattened houses and visited the border with Syria and saw a flattened Syrian town. War is sadness.

I travelled thought the Negev desert and the West Bank.

I only have negative souvenirs meeting Palestinians.

I have mixed souvenirs meeting Israelis, most positive though.

There you have it.

I saw the hatred in the Palestinian eyes, every time.

We see what we want to see.

< French language edited out > Jacquot,

You reply is ridiculous.

I am not a keyboard warrior, I traveled and worked in many countries.

I observed.

I can tell you a lot about French, German, Portuguese, Americans, canadian etc people.

I do hope you spent some time in Gaza, the West Bank or Israel.

Edited August 21, 2014 by metisdead
French language edited out of post. This is an English language forum, English is the only acceptable language, except in the Thai language forum where Thai language is allowed.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Well, unfortunately there will be never ever peace between the Jews and their neighbours. Just look at the attitude and hatred in the comments of our zionist friends and these might be guys who even don't live in Israel. As long as these thickheads fully accept such crimes against the humanity as deliberately killing innocent children and bombing schools as being fine because Israel needs to protect themselves. How could peace ever happen? Is really sad but this is the reality. Right now Israel has the military power and use it to kill 'Arabs', who knows one day the other side will have more power and they will kill of the Jews. As a matter of fact both are fools.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Israeli supporters are Zionist friends. Some of us have a position that lends toward one side, or the other, but do try to remain dispassionate. I have seen few posts here that solicit or sell hate. To suggest a collective responsibility for the deliberate killing of of innocent children, upon the TV populace, is just rude.

You narrowly note that currently Israel has some means of power and... are you aware of the wars launched against the Jews by their arab neighbors when it was percieved that the arbas had some means and power? Are you aware this street goes in both directions. Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. This... this type of act, whether defended as defense of proactive, entrenches another generation of local arabs and confirms Jew hatred, Hamas creates the pretext for Israel to act, and this action furthers Hamas' claim that Israel is.... But Hate? Here? I think this is a bit overdone. It would be kind to simply retract that one point. Just a conceding it was a bit too much would be kind and demonstrate meeting others half way. And yes, they are both fools and for all our evolution humans cant find a way out of this morass.

Of course you are right.

It just saddens and sickens me that I never heard any of the Israel defenders on TV say something like: Israel was wrong to bomb from the UN declared safe schools. Maybe we should have not bombed markets because too many civilians are dead. Is it really necessary for us to conduct military actions which kill thousands of mostly innocent civilians in response to some home-made bombs killing a handful of our citizens? Does Israel really needs to show an attitute of one eye for one eye (actually thousands of eyes for one eye....). Can't we think of something more productive on the road to some difficult but from us all wished for peace? We are in the driver position, shouldn't we show some sign that we are not rock-hard?

I have difficulties understanding that some people on this earth could consider Israels recent actions as legitimate due to whatever reason. These people seem to have such a hardened heart, no feelings, no compassion whatsoever. I can only interprete them as being hardliners, extremists, blind thickheads.

Now of course that doesn't mean that I agree with what the from you guys called 'Arabs' do. No way. But them doing nasty things just doesn't justify Israel doing what they are doing now.

But maybe the majority on both sides are helplessly lost in their anger. In Buddhim we can call that : are in hell. That's why I prefer not to argue with them anymore, there is no sense in it as it leads to nowhere. Of course like to provocate them a bit from time to time. I am human too... and still hope that some day they will be able to leave the hell of anger.

[Ulysses G.]

Of course like to provocate them a bit from time to time. I am human too... and still hope that some day they will be able to leave the hell of anger.

Almost every one of your posts comes across as ignorant, hateful and angry. You are no more unbiased or "compassionate" than the people that you are criticizing. People in glass houses...

Edited August 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[CBR250]

Muslims do hate Jews. I personally have not only encountered it but as a private explorer of religions I have asked muslims many questions from Indo, to Paki, to Yemen, UAE, Oman, Amman, Iraq, Damascus, Afghanistan, Thailand, Egypt, etc. These are not stickers on my luggage. I actually lived, and worked amongst these muslims of varied ethnic backgrounds. To a man they hate Jews. Indeed, the few women I know from Lebanon also hate Jews. From the minarets and madrases around the world Jew Hatred is inculcated every day.

A load of prejudiced codswallop - exactly the type of irrational paranoia that helps feed the endless cycles of conflict.

I too have met many Muslims. Yet many do not hate or even dislike Jews, but assert the right of Israel to exist.

I also know many Palestinians (who have the best reason to hate after their experiences at the hands of Israelis) who are excruciatingly aware of the differences between Jewish/Israeli peoples, so do not apply blanket statements to them as a people. Of course there are right wing fascists amongst Jews - there are a large number in the Knesset - and a few on Thai Visa too. But there are also Jewish/Israeli humanists who oppose the warmongering actions of the current crop of Israeli "leaders". And there are many Palestinians working in partnership with the latter. You don't do that with people you hate.

I daresay that even some of those on these threads defending Israel's overt militarism would also acknowledge that there is a huge variation amongst Muslims - as there is amongst Jews. Not all Jews believe that Jehova's instructions to "go forth and kill every man and woman and child and living thing...." is meant to include modern day Palestinians and those other blasphemers, the Gentiles. The same as not all Muslims believe that their version of God requires the deaths of non-believers. But yes, there are indeed ignorant, racist, prejudiced and paranoid idiots on both sides. They are the ones who invest most in fanning the fires of hate.